PvP: 50% reduced damage done, 30% reduced healing done - better gameplay??

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ario.8964 said:All the people in here only paying attention to the 50% reduced damage and ignoring the healing reduction as well...That being said, healing is super high and could do with a 50% reduction on top of damage, now people won't be full healing every time they pop a heal skill and nobody gets one shot. People will still die in reasonable time and if they don't, then nerf some of peoples ability to block, evade, blind, reflect, etc.

Skilled players can already draw out fights that might last 30 seconds by another 20, 30, 40 seconds potentially indefinitely not though high levels of healing but through skilled use of terrain, active defensives, jumping puzzles and the like. Doesn't matter if you reduce healing if you're reducing all damage by 50%. All you've done is drawn out how much longer a player will go into kite mode until they reengage and the fight and with nonsense like a 50% reduced damage you've completely removed all ability to actually pinch the kill out 1v1 in this window for every build in the game.

[apharma.3741]

You would need to increase cool downs of skills too.

Look at the cool downs on elite spec weapons and then at core.

On core:Skill 1 = auto, no real CDSkill 2 = 8-10s CDSkill 3 = 12-15s CD

Elite spec:Skill 1 = auto, no real CDSkill 2 = 5-9s CDSkill 3 = 8-12s CD

There's some exceptions and some of the elites have seen cool down increases but generally the cool downs on elite spec weapons and utilities are lower than their core counterparts.

[KrHome.1920]

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:If we ask where the damage and the sustain comes from, we realize boon access is a big issue.

A 25 might stack is a ~35% damage boost in pvp (2050 power -> 2800 power). At the defensive side a high 33% damage reduction uptime via protection is pretty common on certain builds. I am a necromancer main. Corruptions only have minor impacts these days. The boons are instantly reapplied. Corruptions are a joke in smallscale environments. In pre HoT times the meta necro corrupt build (signetmancer) had 3x 2 corrupts and you could shutdown your opponent with that. That's what corrupt boon alone does today (2x 3 corrupts on a low cooldown) and the skill has a very minor impact.

I don't think that healing is the issue. The healing itself in this game already is pretty low.

I don't think corruption has little impact, I had a core necro corrupting my boons on revenant giving me 20s weakness everytime. Considering Revenant relies on high damage and has close to no condi cleanse this corruption build rendered me almost uselessSigil of Cleansing and condi cleanse on legendswap (Cleansing Channel) and in general on rev you can ignore the weakness as you deal an insane amount of burst damage. When I duell revenants the removal of their 25 might stack is much more important than the might to weakness corruption which is just an unreliable RNG damage reduction. Glancing chance is only 50% - that's nothing, when you have to tank a 20K burst which then still hits for 10K because everything that does not glance is a critical hit (Rolling Mists)!

That is btw. also the reason why reaper performs so poor against core warrior. The burst is just too high. The warrior just needs to pop double endure pain, ignore the weakness and play utra aggressive to destroy you.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Reduce everything not just damage and healing, boons, condi cleanse, condi application.And remove the safety nets from skills and put some kitten risk into them.

[Erzian.5218]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Zoid.2568 said:Yes. Longer fights and more skill.

You seriously think multi minute slogs of fights like the Ham Bow and DD Ele era were involved skill? It was an endless slog of attacks, none of which felt impactful or particularly changed the directions of the fight until after literal minutes of throwing ineffectual attacks someone finally dropped dead.

Hambow was such a well-designed build. High impact skills had one purpose, obvious tells (post pin down nerf) and relevant cool downs. Therefore the build rewarded tight play on both sides. Much better than the dumpster fire we have now where many skills can be spammed, are instant casts (or low activation time + quickness), have hardly any tell and/or are overloaded with different effects. The game has been dumbed down over the years. Yes, it is more fast paced (which many people automatically take for more difficult/skillful) but much less strategic. Timing dodges and setting up skills has given way cycling through low cool down skills (offense and defense alike) and 1v1 match ups are much more lopsided nowadays (which in return makes mechanical skill less important as it will decide less fights overall).That said, not everything back then was perfect (e.g. fire/air sigils) but overall, player decisions on a micro level were much more important than they are now. Nonetheless, OP suggestion won’t magically solve all issues as it does nothing to tackle the actual issues with the ongoing trend of gw2 skill design (that new and redesigned skills provide too much for their cool down/activation time compared to older skills).

[Ario.8964]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ario.8964 said:All the people in here only paying attention to the 50% reduced damage and ignoring the healing reduction as well...That being said, healing is super high and could do with a 50% reduction on top of damage, now people won't be full healing every time they pop a heal skill and nobody gets one shot. People will still die in reasonable time and if they don't, then nerf some of peoples ability to block, evade, blind, reflect, etc.

Skilled players can already draw out fights that might last 30 seconds by another 20, 30, 40 seconds potentially indefinitely not though high levels of healing but through skilled use of terrain, active defensives, jumping puzzles and the like. Doesn't matter if you reduce healing if you're reducing all damage by 50%. All you've done is drawn out how much longer a player will go into kite mode until they reengage and the fight and with nonsense like a 50% reduced damage you've completely removed all ability to actually pinch the kill out 1v1 in this window for every build in the game.

Kiting should be a form of stalling a fight, nothing you ever do will change that strategy unless you remove it which I think we can both agree is a bad idea. So, like I said in my post, if the flat dmg and heal nerf doesn't help combat at all, nerf the amount of defenses, mobility, etc. people have access to. Limit the stalling of combat to kiting/los instead of strategies like evade chain while full healing on point or spamming boons for yourself so nothing can hurt you.

[Snellibee.2761]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:If we ask where the damage and the sustain comes from, we realize boon access is a big issue.

A 25 might stack is a ~35% damage boost in pvp (2050 power -> 2800 power). At the defensive side a high 33% damage reduction uptime via protection is pretty common on certain builds. I am a necromancer main. Corruptions only have minor impacts these days. The boons are instantly reapplied. Corruptions are a joke in smallscale environments. In pre HoT times the meta necro corrupt build (signetmancer) had 3x 2 corrupts and you could shutdown your opponent with that. That's what corrupt boon alone does today (2x 3 corrupts on a low cooldown) and the skill has a very minor impact.

I don't think that healing is the issue. The healing itself in this game already is pretty low.

I don't think corruption has little impact, I had a core necro corrupting my boons on revenant giving me 20s weakness everytime. Considering Revenant relies on high damage and has close to no condi cleanse this corruption build rendered me almost uselessSigil of Cleansing and condi cleanse on legendswap (Cleansing Channel) and in general on rev you can ignore the weakness as you deal an insane amount of burst damage. When I duell revenants the removal of their 25 might stack is much more important than the might to weakness corruption which is just an unreliable RNG damage reduction. Glancing chance is only 50% - that's nothing, when you have to tank a 20K burst which then still hits for 10K because everything that does not glance is a critical hit (Rolling Mists)!

That is btw. also the reason why reaper performs so poor against core warrior. The burst is just too high. The warrior just needs to pop double endure pain, ignore the weakness and play utra aggressive to destroy you.

It's not only weakness they give me so my 1 condi cleanse has little chance of cleansing the weakness and not cripple, poison, torment, etc,.. Also corrupting boons also corrupt the 25 might stacks so You'll both remove the might and give weakness.You should be able to kill warrior as reaper btw

[KrHome.1920]

@Snellibee.2761 said:You should be able to kill warrior as reaper btwSpellbreaker, yes ... EZ!

Core is a different story... but that's offtopic.

[MyPuppy.8970]

I think it would be fair to make healing negligible without investment in healing power.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@KrHome.1920 said:Corruptions only have minor impacts these days.cant agree here. a few well placed corrupts destroys some builds.

[Mbelch.9028]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Corruptions only have minor impacts these days.cant agree here. a few well placed corrupts destroys some builds.

Facts.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ario.8964 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ario.8964 said:All the people in here only paying attention to the 50% reduced damage and ignoring the healing reduction as well...That being said, healing is super high and could do with a 50% reduction on top of damage, now people won't be full healing every time they pop a heal skill and nobody gets one shot. People will still die in reasonable time and if they don't, then nerf some of peoples ability to block, evade, blind, reflect, etc.

Skilled players can already draw out fights that might last 30 seconds by another 20, 30, 40 seconds potentially indefinitely not though high levels of healing but through skilled use of terrain, active defensives, jumping puzzles and the like. Doesn't matter if you reduce healing if you're reducing all damage by 50%. All you've done is drawn out how much longer a player will go into kite mode until they reengage and the fight and with nonsense like a 50% reduced damage you've completely removed all ability to actually pinch the kill out 1v1 in this window for every build in the game.

Kiting should be a form of stalling a fight, nothing you ever do will change that strategy unless you remove it which I think we can both agree is a bad idea. So, like I said in my post, if the flat dmg and heal nerf doesn't help combat at all, nerf the amount of defenses, mobility, etc. people have access to. Limit the stalling of combat to kiting/los instead of strategies like evade chain while full healing on point or spamming boons for yourself so nothing can hurt you.

Like I said earlier, you want to see what a 50% damage reduction would actually look like? It's real. It's already in the game live right now. It's called boonbeast. It's an unkillable monster that even with the extremely lethal levels of damage can just skilllessly facetank damage which it does through permanent and effortless 33% damage reduction and prolonged bursts of 66% damage reduction. Nerfing healing wouldn't help that much as boonbeasts already don't care about self healing and fully resustaining in a fight the way Defense warriors, Holosmiths and Weavers do. They mostly blow their heal off cooldown to set up axe 5 bursts because they're so unthreatened by literally everything in the game. Now imagine you turned almost every single build in the game into Boonbeast.

[Snellibee.2761]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ario.8964 said:All the people in here only paying attention to the 50% reduced damage and ignoring the healing reduction as well...That being said, healing is super high and could do with a 50% reduction on top of damage, now people won't be full healing every time they pop a heal skill and nobody gets one shot. People will still die in reasonable time and if they don't, then nerf some of peoples ability to block, evade, blind, reflect, etc.

Skilled players can already draw out fights that might last 30 seconds by another 20, 30, 40 seconds potentially indefinitely not though high levels of healing but through skilled use of terrain, active defensives, jumping puzzles and the like. Doesn't matter if you reduce healing if you're reducing all damage by 50%. All you've done is drawn out how much longer a player will go into kite mode until they reengage and the fight and with nonsense like a 50% reduced damage you've completely removed all ability to actually pinch the kill out 1v1 in this window for every build in the game.

Kiting should be a form of stalling a fight, nothing you ever do will change that strategy unless you remove it which I think we can both agree is a bad idea. So, like I said in my post, if the flat dmg and heal nerf doesn't help combat at all, nerf the amount of defenses, mobility, etc. people have access to. Limit the stalling of combat to kiting/los instead of strategies like evade chain while full healing on point or spamming boons for yourself so nothing can hurt you.

Like I said earlier, you want to see what a 50% damage reduction would actually look like? It's real. It's already in the game live right now. It's called boonbeast. It's an unkillable monster that even with the extremely lethal levels of damage can just skilllessly facetank damage which it does through permanent and effortless 33% damage reduction and prolonged bursts of 66% damage reduction. Nerfing healing wouldn't help that much as boonbeasts already don't care about self healing and fully resustaining in a fight the way Defense warriors, Holosmiths and Weavers do. They mostly blow their heal off cooldown to set up axe 5 bursts because they're so unthreatened by literally everything in the game. Now imagine you turned almost every single build in the game into Boonbeast.

Exactly tuning down damage in general is impossible with the bunker builds out there

[Ario.8964]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ario.8964 said:All the people in here only paying attention to the 50% reduced damage and ignoring the healing reduction as well...That being said, healing is super high and could do with a 50% reduction on top of damage, now people won't be full healing every time they pop a heal skill and nobody gets one shot. People will still die in reasonable time and if they don't, then nerf some of peoples ability to block, evade, blind, reflect, etc.

Skilled players can already draw out fights that might last 30 seconds by another 20, 30, 40 seconds potentially indefinitely not though high levels of healing but through skilled use of terrain, active defensives, jumping puzzles and the like. Doesn't matter if you reduce healing if you're reducing all damage by 50%. All you've done is drawn out how much longer a player will go into kite mode until they reengage and the fight and with nonsense like a 50% reduced damage you've completely removed all ability to actually pinch the kill out 1v1 in this window for every build in the game.

Kiting should be a form of stalling a fight, nothing you ever do will change that strategy unless you remove it which I think we can both agree is a bad idea. So, like I said in my post, if the flat dmg and heal nerf doesn't help combat at all, nerf the amount of defenses, mobility, etc. people have access to. Limit the stalling of combat to kiting/los instead of strategies like evade chain while full healing on point or spamming boons for yourself so nothing can hurt you.

Like I said earlier, you want to see what a 50% damage reduction would actually look like? It's real. It's already in the game live right now. It's called boonbeast. It's an unkillable monster that even with the extremely lethal levels of damage can just skilllessly facetank damage which it does through permanent and effortless 33% damage reduction and prolonged bursts of 66% damage reduction. Nerfing healing wouldn't help that much as boonbeasts already don't care about self healing and fully resustaining in a fight the way Defense warriors, Holosmiths and Weavers do. They mostly blow their heal off cooldown to set up axe 5 bursts because they're so unthreatened by literally everything in the game. Now imagine you turned almost every single build in the game into Boonbeast.

You don't seem to be reading a very important sentence in my post: Defenses will be nerfed as well in order to ensure that fights aren't permanently stalled out and we don't have another pure bunker meta. Nothing will feel like boonbeast because nothing will have the same amount of damage mitigation as current boonbeast because those types of skills would be nerfed to fit within the parameters of the game's health after the large dmg and heal reduction. What the dmg and heal reduction is necessary for is removing builds that one shot due to pure damage speccing, it will also remove the contant full healing spam that is present in the game. Things like dmg reduction skills and active defenses would need separate nerfs as these solutions don't affect them at all. This is one part of a large balance solution.

[Biff.5312]

@Gehenna.3625 said:I'm not into PvP in this game because I don't care for it here, but I do dabble in WvW. It seems interesting to me how easily some people can kill others. I ran into a deadeye that tried to insta-kill me from stealth. The combination of stealth and an insta-kill option is a sign of a poor combat system. Now I have a guardian in celestial gear so I actually didn't die. Still took about 80-90% of my health but I was able to reheal and take the next shot. The problem is, he's invisible again so I don't actually get to fight back. He tried a few more times before leaving me alone as also others arrived of my side, but it's that I have extra health and toughness that I survived that. Most other players would've been insta-killed I'm sure. I mean I think it's thieves and mesmers mostly that have an incredible advantage with high burst capabilities and stealth.

Sounds like the way that played out is exactly how it's meant to be. What's the problem? The fact that some professions are better at ambushes, and others better for zerging or whatever, isn't really a problem. It makes for dynamic gameplay. If everyone has the same skill sets, there's no reason for professions at all.

[Gehenna.3625]

@Biff.5312 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:I'm not into PvP in this game because I don't care for it here, but I do dabble in WvW. It seems interesting to me how easily some people can kill others. I ran into a deadeye that tried to insta-kill me from stealth. The combination of stealth and an insta-kill option is a sign of a poor combat system. Now I have a guardian in celestial gear so I actually didn't die. Still took about 80-90% of my health but I was able to reheal and take the next shot. The problem is, he's invisible again so I don't actually get to fight back. He tried a few more times before leaving me alone as also others arrived of my side, but it's that I have extra health and toughness that I survived that. Most other players would've been insta-killed I'm sure. I mean I think it's thieves and mesmers mostly that have an incredible advantage with high burst capabilities and stealth.

Sounds like the way that played out is exactly how it's meant to be. What's the problem? The fact that some professions are better at ambushes, and others better for zerging or whatever, isn't really a problem. It makes for dynamic gameplay. If everyone has the same skill sets, there's no reason for professions at all.If you think that if you walk around the map with or without others and someone can just come out of nowhere (stealth) shoot you dead in one shot and go back into stealth again is a good thing, then I guess we have a sincere difference of opinion on that. I don't call that dynamic, that just plain sucks. To me there is nothing competitive about that. It's just combat system enabled griefing.

Of course MMO PvP is bs in general so it's not surprising, but that still doesn't mean it's a great system by any means.

[Daishi.6027]

It’s because skills are fairly easy to avoid or mitigate. If you reduce damage by 50% even after reducing healing by 30% no one who is decent will die. As it stands now you need to work for a clean kill, and play around everyone’s options regardlsss of build; but once you do that a clean kill, will be a clean kill.

And to all these “I got one shot from stealth, this is toxic evil game play that makes me sad inside” I suggest you try to look up videos of people literally just standing and evading at the right time and cleanly avoiding snipes, backstabs, stealth mauls, engie nukes, and shatters. Because good players don’t let these land 1v1. If it’s a Xv1, well you were Xv1ed stop complaining. Your own team or lack of map awareness was probably the bigger throw.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ario.8964 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ario.8964 said:All the people in here only paying attention to the 50% reduced damage and ignoring the healing reduction as well...That being said, healing is super high and could do with a 50% reduction on top of damage, now people won't be full healing every time they pop a heal skill and nobody gets one shot. People will still die in reasonable time and if they don't, then nerf some of peoples ability to block, evade, blind, reflect, etc.

Skilled players can already draw out fights that might last 30 seconds by another 20, 30, 40 seconds potentially indefinitely not though high levels of healing but through skilled use of terrain, active defensives, jumping puzzles and the like. Doesn't matter if you reduce healing if you're reducing all damage by 50%. All you've done is drawn out how much longer a player will go into kite mode until they reengage and the fight and with nonsense like a 50% reduced damage you've completely removed all ability to actually pinch the kill out 1v1 in this window for every build in the game.

Kiting should be a form of stalling a fight, nothing you ever do will change that strategy unless you remove it which I think we can both agree is a bad idea. So, like I said in my post, if the flat dmg and heal nerf doesn't help combat at all, nerf the amount of defenses, mobility, etc. people have access to. Limit the stalling of combat to kiting/los instead of strategies like evade chain while full healing on point or spamming boons for yourself so nothing can hurt you.

Like I said earlier, you want to see what a 50% damage reduction would actually look like? It's real. It's already in the game live right now. It's called boonbeast. It's an unkillable monster that even with the extremely lethal levels of damage can just skilllessly facetank damage which it does through permanent and effortless 33% damage reduction and prolonged bursts of 66% damage reduction. Nerfing healing wouldn't help that much as boonbeasts already don't care about self healing and fully resustaining in a fight the way Defense warriors, Holosmiths and Weavers do. They mostly blow their heal off cooldown to set up axe 5 bursts because they're so unthreatened by literally everything in the game. Now imagine you turned almost every single build in the game into Boonbeast.

You don't seem to be reading a very important sentence in my post: Defenses will be nerfed as well in order to ensure that fights aren't permanently stalled out and we don't have another pure bunker meta. Nothing will feel like boonbeast because nothing will have the same amount of damage mitigation as current boonbeast because those types of skills would be nerfed to fit within the parameters of the game's health after the large dmg and heal reduction. What the dmg and heal reduction is necessary for is removing builds that one shot due to pure damage speccing, it will also remove the contant full healing spam that is present in the game. Things like dmg reduction skills and active defenses would need separate nerfs as these solutions don't affect them at all. This is one part of a large balance solution.

Boonbeast is what a 50% damage reduction with no active defenses looks like. It has sword 2 and 3, for evades. Maybe a utility. Not exactly a lot of active defenses. No where near as much active mitigation as a Spellbreaker or Mirage. It's unkillabilty comes exclusively from the fact that that is what about 50% damage reduction across the board would look like on any build. And it doesn't care about or need a lot of healing. In fact most of the time it uses it's heal offensively to set up Axe 5.