Does Retal need a nerf?

[Math.5123]

@"Skotlex.7580" said:I feel the way retaliation works is fine, as mentioned above, it counters multihits, whereas aegis counters heavy hits.

however, players aren't running around with 100% aegis uptime. High retaliation uptime changes the strategy from one of "time your combo" to "your combo based build is useless".

Thus, the only issue I'd recognize is guardians with their really high retaliation uptime, and that one trait that makes them want such an uptime.

I'd prefer if retaliation worked as an actual counter boon, rather than something people just have on all the time.

Core guardians actually have relatively low retaliation uptime compared to other classes. At least the hammer version.Elixir Holo for example has higher access to it, so does chaos Chrono. Chaos mirage also has about as much, all with more sustain than the glassy core guard build.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits.

This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits.

They're for different purposes.

Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks.Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks.

except blind and aegis require timing.

Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing.

Retal isn't in short supply?Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal.That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class.

Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated.With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us.

Fragments of Faith and Wrathful Spirit aren't exactly what you'd call "meta".

So let me be more clear:

Group/AoE retal is in short supply in the current meta.

Ah yes but not all of us like to play META builds...Thats one thing I disliked about being in Platinum actually, there's no wiggle room for fun builds.

So while retal may be fine now during the current META, it's not fine for those of us who wish to troll a bit of fun. A boon is a cause of build restrictions, seems weird to me.

As someone mentioned before "burning does twice the damage of retal".. So basically Retal hurts more than bleeding, poisoned, torment and confusion... For a boon that's pretty impressive.

No, a boon isn't a cause of build restrictions. Non-viable stuff being non-viable is the cause of build restrictions. Removing retal from the game isn't gonna make full-trapper DH any more viable.

As said before, there is a difference between looking at specific skills/traits, and calling for an entire mechanic to be changed. If the meta shifts such that retal becomes oppressive, then you tune that by reducing availability of retal and the specific skills/traits that are giving too much of it, not by removing the boon from existence (which is effectively what an ICD would do).

When each game has 4+ FB's running Zeal, come back to this. And even then, the answer is tuning the traits in Zeal, not removing an entire boon.

Ah I see, its not a problem until the majority use it.

It does inadvertently give a build restriction though by not allowing such builds to excel, DH already has its own issues without the extra handicap.

[sephiroth.4217]

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits.

This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits.

They're for different purposes.

Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks.Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks.

except blind and aegis require timing.

Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing.

Retal isn't in short supply?Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal.That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class.

Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated.With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us.

Fragments of Faith and Wrathful Spirit aren't exactly what you'd call "meta".

So let me be more clear:

Group/AoE retal is in short supply in the current meta.

Ah yes but not all of us like to play META builds...Thats one thing I disliked about being in Platinum actually, there's no wiggle room for fun builds.

So while retal may be fine now during the current META, it's not fine for those of us who wish to troll a bit of fun. A boon is a cause of build restrictions, seems weird to me.

As someone mentioned before "burning does twice the damage of retal".. So basically Retal hurts more than bleeding, poisoned, torment and confusion... For a boon that's pretty impressive.

While I agree that the retaliation damage needs a nerf, this not exactly accurate. Almost all classes in the meta hit few hit that deal high damage. Also, while theoretically you could have a build that procs multiple attack sources, but the vast majority do not. And retaliation is surely not a gating or to blame for build diversity.

I tried to point out before that this isn't about the current META, its how off meta builds are effected.

Im a simple man.. If I make a build that has multiple procs and a boon is the main reason I kill myself then it does indeed effect build diversity as I have to lower my dps output or change my build to single harder hitting skills rather than using lots of small hits stacked up, its just nit as extreme as other cases but its still there.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

Retal's damage is pretty low usually. It punishes spammy styles of play, and people who ignore it. Always got to keep your eye on that boon-bar.

[sephiroth.4217]

Lets go over a few points here:

• Retal is fine in the current META but not off META
• Retal doesn't effect build diversity but punishes people playing spammy builds or builds that rely on lots of procs.
• Retal damage is fine because its only half of burning but twice as much as other damaging conditions.
• Dont attack people with Retaliation (guess you gotta let go of the keyboard if you have confusion on you too)
• Pay attention to the boon bar and wait out the 15s of retal before using a burst (by which time you would have died)
• Retal is passive damage AND healthy for the game.

The word Oxymoron keeps coming to mind but it's good to hear peoples opinions on it.

[Dadnir.5038]

Just make retal stack in intensity instead of duration...

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Just take a step back.

You're using some builds have high retaliation "uptime" as an argument to support reducing retaliation "damage".

These two things don't connect logically but it does create a slippery slope that you fall down into, thus you felt like oxymoron while others felt alright.

Ideally retaliation should do more damage but builds have much less access to it. Thus it can be use more actively while letting retaliation have any sort of meaning in this game. I've been in both receiving and punishing end of retaliation, and reducing damage would not solve any issue.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Repeat message

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Lets go over a few points here:

• Retal is fine in the current META but not off META
• Retal doesn't effect build diversity but punishes people playing spammy builds or builds that rely on lots of procs.
• Retal damage is fine because its only half of burning but twice as much as other damaging conditions.
• Dont attack people with Retaliation (guess you gotta let go of the keyboard if you have confusion on you too)
• Pay attention to the boon bar and wait out the 15s of retal before using a burst (by which time you would have died)
• Retal is passive damage AND healthy for the game.

The word Oxymoron keeps coming to mind but it's good to hear peoples opinions on it.

Also consider:•Countering spammy playstyles sort of promotes build diversity. Given how prominent they are in the Meta it would be nice to have some sort of counter to play such as more proc-reliant classes; which, i'd argue are the exact opposite of spammy classes rather than close to the same thing. Generally they're more telegraphed, slower, and heavy hitting.•Retal is a pretty rare boon to get in the first place, and even then the damage from it cannot be buffed like condition damage can.•Retal can be corrupted and stripped on top of being pretty rare.•Unlike confusion, Retal only does damage on a successful hit, and as mentioned before; can't be buffed. Confusion scales based on condi damage and damages on skill use. Retal will always hit the same and gives you more options other than to just cleanse immediately.•You don't have to wait out Retal, you can attack into it. I just don't recommend attacking into it over 40 times in rapid succession.•Condi damage is technically passive damage too, and if that was removed from the game there'd be riots. So I guess it is pretty healthy, yeah.

The word Hyperbole kept coming to mind as I took the time to defend Retaliation. It's just something I never thought i'd be doing, but now the word "Jebaited" is overtaking it. Huh. Anyway, hope it was constructive at least.

[Yannir.4132]

@sephiroth.4217 said:Retal isn't in short supply?Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal.That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class.

Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated.With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us.

A. Fragments of Faith + Wrathful Spirit? Bad example. The Zeal traitline which WS resides in is used by absolutely no one in PvP. Especially on DH.B. Boonshare mesmer doesn't exist anymore.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:Retal isn't in short supply?Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal.That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class.

Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated.With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us.

A. Fragments of Faith + Wrathful Spirit? Bad example. The Zeal traitline which WS resides in is used by absolutely no one in PvP. Especially on DH.B. Boonshare mesmer doesn't exist anymore.

We are not talking about proleet meta..I use that combination and I got this build from a friend who plays boonshare Mes...We play for fun.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Retal isn't in short supply?Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal.That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class.

Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated.With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us.

A. Fragments of Faith + Wrathful Spirit? Bad example. The Zeal traitline which WS resides in is used by absolutely no one in PvP. Especially on DH.B. Boonshare mesmer doesn't exist anymore.

Didn't you hear? If a hypothetical build that nobody uses can in theory in a single, extremely niche scenario, do more than 10k damage, it must be removed from existence.

Ironic, considering the appeal to "build diversity".

[sephiroth.4217]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Lets go over a few points here:

• Retal is fine in the current META but not off META
• Retal doesn't effect build diversity but punishes people playing spammy builds or builds that rely on lots of procs.
• Retal damage is fine because its only half of burning but twice as much as other damaging conditions.
• Dont attack people with Retaliation (guess you gotta let go of the keyboard if you have confusion on you too)
• Pay attention to the boon bar and wait out the 15s of retal before using a burst (by which time you would have died)
• Retal is passive damage AND healthy for the game.

The word Oxymoron keeps coming to mind but it's good to hear peoples opinions on it.

Also consider:•Countering spammy playstyles sort of promotes build diversity. Given how prominent they are in the Meta it would be nice to have some sort of counter to play such as more proc-reliant classes; which, i'd argue are the exact opposite of spammy classes rather than close to the same thing. Generally they're more telegraphed, slower, and heavy hitting.•Retal is a pretty rare boon to get in the first place, and even then the damage from it cannot be buffed like condition damage can.•Retal can be corrupted and stripped on top of being pretty rare.•Unlike confusion, Retal only does damage on a successful hit, and as mentioned before; can't be buffed. Confusion scales based on condi damage and damages on skill use. Retal will always hit the same and gives you more options other than to just cleanse immediately.•You don't have to wait out Retal, you can attack into it. I just don't recommend attacking into it over 40 times in rapid succession.•Condi damage is technically passive damage too, and if that was removed from the game there'd be riots. So I guess it is pretty healthy, yeah.

The word Hyperbole kept coming to mind as I took the time to defend Retaliation. It's just something I never thought i'd be doing, but now the word "Jebaited" is overtaking it. Huh. Anyway, hope it was constructive at least.

If I wanted my own come back, I woulda wiped it off your dads face!!jokes aside, its interesting hearing about the other side of the coin.

I never thought about restricting builds to promote more builds, its an interesting point.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Retal isn't in short supply?Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal.That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class.

Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated.With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us.

A. Fragments of Faith + Wrathful Spirit? Bad example. The Zeal traitline which WS resides in is used by absolutely no one in PvP. Especially on DH.B. Boonshare mesmer doesn't exist anymore.

Didn't you hear? If a hypothetical build that nobody uses can in theory in a single, extremely niche scenario, do more than 10k damage, it must be removed from existence.

Ironic, considering the appeal to "build diversity".

It seems you may have missed the many times that I said that im not referring to META builds, I even said its trolly and just for fun..................But ok.Not sure where you got this "remove from existence" notion from either...................but ok.

Ill say it again, clear up some obvious confusion.

• The build is not META
• the build is trolly and fun
• This is not to advocate anything other than how people feel about the boon
• there is nothing "written in stone" here
• this thread is addressed to all players of all divisions and not just the top of platinum
• this thread, as it has gone has evolved my opinion and some points that Id like to have a healthy discussion about, EG: Retal does more than bleed and damaging conditions, a point that I had not considered. (Ill clarify that im talking about 1 stack here)

I hope this clears up any future confusion.

[Ragnar.4257]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits.

This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits.

They're for different purposes.

Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks.Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks.

except blind and aegis require timing.

Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing.

Retal isn't in short supply?Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal.That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class.

Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated.With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us.

Fragments of Faith and Wrathful Spirit aren't exactly what you'd call "meta".

So let me be more clear:

Group/AoE retal is in short supply in the current meta.

Ah yes but not all of us like to play META builds...Thats one thing I disliked about being in Platinum actually, there's no wiggle room for fun builds.

So while retal may be fine now during the current META, it's not fine for those of us who wish to troll a bit of fun. A boon is a cause of build restrictions, seems weird to me.

As someone mentioned before "burning does twice the damage of retal".. So basically Retal hurts more than bleeding, poisoned, torment and confusion... For a boon that's pretty impressive.

While I agree that the retaliation damage needs a nerf, this not exactly accurate. Almost all classes in the meta hit few hit that deal high damage. Also, while theoretically you could have a build that procs multiple attack sources, but the vast majority do not. And retaliation is surely not a gating or to blame for build diversity.

I tried to point out before that this isn't about the current META, its how off meta builds are effected.

Im a simple man.. If I make a build that has multiple procs and a boon is the main reason I kill myself then it does indeed effect build diversity as I have to lower my dps output or change my build to single harder hitting skills rather than using lots of small hits stacked up, its just nit as extreme as other cases but its still there.

If I make a build that has no condi-cleanse and conditions are the main reason I get killed then it does indeed effect build diversity as I have to lower my dps output or change my build to accommodate some condi-cleanse rather than using all-damage traits and utilities.

Guess we gotta remove all condis from the game. Because every build should be viable, regardless of choices made.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits.

This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits.

They're for different purposes.

Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks.Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks.

except blind and aegis require timing.

Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing.

Retal isn't in short supply?Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal.That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class.

Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated.With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us.

Fragments of Faith and Wrathful Spirit aren't exactly what you'd call "meta".

So let me be more clear:

Group/AoE retal is in short supply in the current meta.

Ah yes but not all of us like to play META builds...Thats one thing I disliked about being in Platinum actually, there's no wiggle room for fun builds.

So while retal may be fine now during the current META, it's not fine for those of us who wish to troll a bit of fun. A boon is a cause of build restrictions, seems weird to me.

As someone mentioned before "burning does twice the damage of retal".. So basically Retal hurts more than bleeding, poisoned, torment and confusion... For a boon that's pretty impressive.

While I agree that the retaliation damage needs a nerf, this not exactly accurate. Almost all classes in the meta hit few hit that deal high damage. Also, while theoretically you could have a build that procs multiple attack sources, but the vast majority do not. And retaliation is surely not a gating or to blame for build diversity.

I tried to point out before that this isn't about the current META, its how off meta builds are effected.

Im a simple man.. If I make a build that has multiple procs and a boon is the main reason I kill myself then it does indeed effect build diversity as I have to lower my dps output or change my build to single harder hitting skills rather than using lots of small hits stacked up, its just nit as extreme as other cases but its still there.

If I make a build that has no condi-cleanse and conditions are the main reason I get killed then it does indeed effect build diversity as I have to lower my dps output or change my build to accommodate some condi-cleanse rather than using all-damage traits and utilities.

Guess we gotta remove all condis from the game. Because every build should be viable, regardless of choices made.

didnt you just say that or was that another poster?

Its not even comparable but yea was another poster who literally said the same thing.

After hearing everyones opinions I feel @Trevor Boyer.6524 would be most accurate.Retal used to be balanced before power creep.

[The Ace.9105]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:41hit.....ya i'll assume you or anyone else hitting someone that many times is going to get clapped.

@Bashi.8902 said:I have never seen retal hitting this hard kitten

All it takes is Dragons Maw > Procession of Blades > Whirling Wrath on a team and you get nuked with Retal. Give it a shot, you're guaranteed atleast 10k in retal from every mid fight.DH is bad enough, it's only good for using for fun and surely doesn't need this extra handicap?

@"The Ace.9105" said:I like the extremely high damage AoE build that's probably not broken at all. Also 41 hits.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAR8dn8cCFdiddCWdCkdil7hS+9j/93KDa3CtqACg0F-jpAaABAUGgw9HAA

It's just a troll build, not broken at all. 5 traps and trapper runes.If a team gets caught in the 3 button combo, I die with them just from Retal.Using such a troll build, I can't understand why I get punished for the enemy teams error of judgement.. If they want to +3 me and get caught in my burst, I should be able to be rewarded for that, no?I positioned myself properly, I timed it properly, I blow 2 traps to stealth in ontop of them grouped up and when I drop the burst, I kill myself for it.It's happening a lot actually.

On the other hand imagine everybody running that kinds of builds that hit 50-100 times in a matter of seconds without getting punished. With marauder amulet and power runes your retal does 244 damage per hit which would mean you'd have to get 65 hits to the enemy for the retal to kill you.

[sephiroth.4217]

@The Ace.9105 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:41hit.....ya i'll assume you or anyone else hitting someone that many times is going to get clapped.

@Bashi.8902 said:I have never seen retal hitting this hard kitten

All it takes is Dragons Maw > Procession of Blades > Whirling Wrath on a team and you get nuked with Retal. Give it a shot, you're guaranteed atleast 10k in retal from every mid fight.DH is bad enough, it's only good for using for fun and surely doesn't need this extra handicap?

@The Ace.9105 said:I like the extremely high damage AoE build that's probably not broken at all. Also 41 hits.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAR8dn8cCFdiddCWdCkdil7hS+9j/93KDa3CtqACg0F-jpAaABAUGgw9HAA

It's just a troll build, not broken at all. 5 traps and trapper runes.If a team gets caught in the 3 button combo, I die with them just from Retal.Using such a troll build, I can't understand why I get punished for the enemy teams error of judgement.. If they want to +3 me and get caught in my burst, I should be able to be rewarded for that, no?I positioned myself properly, I timed it properly, I blow 2 traps to stealth in ontop of them grouped up and when I drop the burst, I kill myself for it.It's happening a lot actually.

On the other hand imagine everybody running that kinds of builds that hit 50-100 times in a matter of seconds without getting punished.

Yea its interesting.. Another user pointed out that by restricting these builds it can promote more build diversity..

Theres always 2 sides to a coin and its interesting to hear both sides.

[Megametzler.5729]

I was trolling a little with some FA tempest the other day, spamming air overloads and stuff. Still have ping issues, so that kind of makes sense to play. However, there are too many too frequent builds with retaliation hardcountering it. Air overload hits multiple targets four times a second with low damage hits (hardly higher than retal damage lol). So I had to drop it.

It was a troll build, sure, but retaliation being so common does DPS tempests no good. So reduce retaliation uptime and make it a build you can look out for and wait out its duration (and not look for the retaliation sign in a goddamn stack of over 9000 boons - looking at you, boonbeast!).

(Yes, I know it'd be more complex due to - for example - core guard. I do not think it is a serious issue, just wanted to share some more experience with a non-meta build getting hardcountered by it.)

[sephiroth.4217]

@Megametzler.5729 said:I was trolling a little with some FA tempest the other day, spamming air overloads and stuff. Still have ping issues, so that kind of makes sense to play. However, there are too many too frequent builds with retaliation hardcountering it. Air overload hits multiple targets four times a second with low damage hits (hardly higher than retal damage lol). So I had to drop it.

It was a troll build, sure, but retaliation being so common does DPS tempests no good. So reduce retaliation uptime and make it a build you can look out for and wait out its duration (and not look for the retaliation sign in a kitten stack of over 9000 boons - looking at you, boonbeast!).

(Yes, I know it'd be more complex due to - for example - core guard. I do not think it is a serious issue, just wanted to share some more experience with a non-meta build getting hardcountered by it.)

And this is the point of the thread really.. Its definitely not a serious issue as it doesn't effect anyone playing the META, it just effects everyone else and It's also as you say, a very common boon.

I just feel a boon shouldn't damage someone THAT much and the community has made great efforts so far to remove passive gameplay and passive damage so I was curious to hear the thoughts of others about it.

Thankyou for taking the time to share your experience playing a non-meta build.(side note: That FA temp build is fun and I actually dropped it due to retal aswell)

[KrHome.1920]

I like the effect. I did also like "Empathy" in GW1 which worked the same but was even stronger.

But I am biased as I main necro which can corrupt the boon with low effort - even though it can hurt when I throw an Axe2 channel into it.

The uptime on warriors is sick. The first thing I do when engaging a warrior is make sure to corrupt the retaliation he self applies on the first hit taken.

[Spartacus.3192]

You could say the same thing about torment and confusion. "Boo hooo waah waah i want torment and confusion removed from the game or nerfed heavily because my meme build that's based on spamming multiple attacks and kiting like crazy gets me killed. Torment and confusion stacks with intensity and easily accessible by some classes. ANET is killing my enjoyment by reducing build diversity.

[Deimos.4263]

To reiterate, I think you just need to take a step back and realize this is a sacrifice play.

If they don't counter it...great, you'll nuke them all and stay standing (good luck finishing off five downs solo...that in itself is a challenge.) If they do counter....you'll fall over but the result is largely the same, they're down or at least severely beat up.

What determines success here is choosing a moment for this play when you've communicated with your team that you're making such a play, and/or they're smart enough to back you up. I think retaliation here is fine. Don't try this if your team hasn't got your back.

[Skotlex.7580]

One thing about the meta comments: I'd dare say any change that affects the meta can be potentially good because it allows changes and could lead to more diversity.

thus, any issue brought up that reinforces the meta has the opposite effect. Thus... if retaliation makes away with multihit builds, then it makes sense that if there's ample retaliation uptime in your games, those builds are discouraged, and we get instead few hits burst builds: the current meta.

High uptime of a boon like retaliation is problematic, since it just removes some kinds of builds from being usable, and it does "nothing" for the rest (since its damage is quite low).

I think most people are in agreement that the damage is fine, but the uptime should be lower to make it a a situational boon to counter specific encounters, not something to just have on most of the time.

Making it stack intensity rather than duration would be an interesting change.

[Skotlex.7580]

@"Spartacus.3192" said:You could say the same thing about torment and confusion. "Boo hooo waah waah i want torment and confusion removed from the game or nerfed heavily because my meme build that's based on spamming multiple attacks and kiting like crazy gets me killed. Torment and confusion stacks with intensity and easily accessible by some classes. ANET is killing my enjoyment by reducing build diversity.

If the build can keep a high uptime of confusion or torment on yourself, then yeah we would have such complains. And it's actually part of why people hate mirage. :P but rather than arguing that these two conditions be removed, most people argue that they could tone down their rate of application.

Most comments here support a similar approach.