Mesmer Patch-Preview

[Curunen.8729]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:And yeah SoS is completely stupid - it's like saying "here's half your class mechanic" in one minor trait and "here's your other half" in another minor trait - when they should be in the same first trait.

That's a good point. With your permission will add it into the other thread :)

Please do, I think a lot of people here share that opinion that Superspeed should be automatically built in to mirage cloak for its function, not a separate minor trait. :)

[OriOri.8724]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:In light of base mirage cloak revert to 0.75s, regarding Elusive Mind - how about the following change:

• remove stunbreak entirely
• replace with "increase mirage cloak duration from all sources by 33%"

That could provide a meaningful choice at least between IH and EM (can deal with DC separately) in that IH would have shorter cloak but share with illusions (plus ambush) and EM would have longer cloak but selfish on player (plus condi cleanse).

I don't like that because timing attacks after dodges would be inconsistent and very annoying

? The timing window for ambush attacks won't be changing, that's in the patch notes. This doesn't affect timing attacks at all for mesmers

[Quadox.7834]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:In light of base mirage cloak revert to 0.75s, regarding Elusive Mind - how about the following change:

• remove stunbreak entirely
• replace with "increase mirage cloak duration from all sources by 33%"

That could provide a meaningful choice at least between IH and EM (can deal with DC separately) in that IH would have shorter cloak but share with illusions (plus ambush) and EM would have longer cloak but selfish on player (plus condi cleanse).

I don't like that because timing attacks after dodges would be inconsistent and very annoying

? The timing window for ambush attacks won't be changing, that's in the patch notes. This doesn't affect timing attacks at all for mesmers

No relevance to my comment.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

lol @ the people who think this will in any way remove mesmer from top tier in sPvP.

The core mechanics are broken and have been broken since the phantasm rework. Until they revisit that the class will continue to be busted and people playing it will continue to be class carried to the sky and back.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:lol @ the people who think this will in any way remove mesmer from top tier in sPvP.

The core mechanics are broken and have been broken since the phantasm rework. Until they revisit that the class will continue to be busted and people playing it will continue to be class carried to the sky and back.

The core mechanics were broken before the rework. Please take your contrarianism elsewhere.

[Xaylin.1860]

@Curunen.8729 said:From personal bias perspective I'd rather not have condition removal trait be mutually exclusive with Axe trait - it's bad enough with Warden's Feedback and Restorative Illusions.

Oh do you mean additional condi removal, so EM still has it on dodge? Sorry if I was mistaken - Hmm, that would need to be carefully balanced if so otherwise could have so much to trivialise condis given how much removal EM can generate in its current state. Not sure what kind of trait could be there.

I probably should have been more specific. EM would lose the condition removal.

I don't see it competing with the Axe trait a problem. Either you want offense or defense. It's a choice. But yes, I do see the parallels.

[Curunen.8729]

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:From personal bias perspective I'd rather not have condition removal trait be mutually exclusive with Axe trait - it's bad enough with Warden's Feedback and Restorative Illusions.

Oh do you mean additional condi removal, so EM still has it on dodge? Sorry if I was mistaken - Hmm, that would need to be carefully balanced if so otherwise could have so much to trivialise condis given how much removal EM can generate in its current state. Not sure what kind of trait could be there.

I probably should have been more specific. EM would lose the condition removal.

I don't see it competing with the Axe trait a problem. Either you want offense or defense. It's a choice. But yes, I do see the parallels.

Yeah sadly this is something I wouldn't like. After the changes, untraited axe will simply be kitten, so would hate it if condi removal is in the same tier.

On a completely separate note - I just realised about Mimic - being manipulation, traited with MoM that is 24s cooldown skill duplication with reflect!! :open_mouth:Oh damn, I think I will be switching to Blink/IA/Mimic for utilities.

[Levetty.1279]

Well, RIP DPS Mesmer. Was nice having one for a little while.

[Curunen.8729]

Anyone able to comment on the changes to things like MC? I can't play till tomorrow evening...

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Curunen.8729 said:Anyone able to comment on the changes to things like MC? I can't play till tomorrow evening...

Only played power mirage, it's still playable but the mc cut can be felt both on movement and evade.IA nerf cuts the survival a ton.

[Curunen.8729]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Anyone able to comment on the changes to things like MC? I can't play till tomorrow evening...

Only played power mirage, it's still playable but the mc cut can be felt both on movement and evade.IA nerf cuts the survival a ton.

Thanks, sad to have to only read info tonight instead of test.

Anyone comment on axe ambush tracking - specifically if a target starts off in front of you but moves behind you during the time it takes for flying axes to travel? Do they still track or does the target have to be in front of you the whole time until they hit?

Any masochists want to test how the new exhaustion stacking makes EM even worse? More feedback for Anet on how stupid this trait is would be helpful.

Anyone tried Mimic buff to make up for IA nerf?

Any more feedback on mobility and survivability with 0.75 mc. Including mirror pickups.

:)

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

Exhaustion I said was a poor mechanic when it was applied to thief, I stand by that for Elusive Mind and even more so now with it now stacking. I feel so sorry for thieves.

Don't be, at least for now, it depends on the interpretation.My interpretation is that if you remove the 3 MICs you get 9sec exhaustion. But according to thieves the maximum amount is 4 sec, which makes kind of sense because it was suggested on a thief thread that it should depend on the MIC removed, so all in all it's a buff.

• Unhindered Combatant: The duration of exhaustion that this trait applies when dodging is now 2 seconds if crippled is present, 3 seconds if chilled is present, and 4 seconds if immobilized is present. Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

To me it means that given the prevalence of certain conditions it's made UC worse vs necro in general as you're likely to be hit by a 5s exhaustion hit per dodge. To put it bluntly you will have no regen from vigor at all. Ele will shut down your dodge regen with chill because they have double passive frost aura on their support build so that's now 6s exhaustion.

It's basically increasing the punishment from exhaustion for thieves and mesmers on certain traits and as I said exhaustion in my opinion is a really poor mechanic.

I've the same interpretation as you.

But according to thieves, if cripple is removed you get 2 seconds of exhaustion, if cripple and chilled are removed or just chilled - you get 3 seconds and if immobilize you get 4 sec independently if other MICs are present. In this view it's a buff because you get lesser overall exhaustion.Their interpretation makes sense considering that the change was suggested like that.

TBH I would prefer my interpretation out of the two, I don't think UC needs a buff. Thief already bypass a ton of mechanics on these game.

I don't think it will work like that, I think it will essentially apply a stack of exhaustion per condition removed so removing all 3 hits you with 9s. At least it would then be on par with EM :lol:

Well it seems thieves had it right, can only get maximum 4sec exhaustion.A trait that was already awesome got buffed.Meanwhile EM that was trash is still trash, gotta love to be ANet's favourite child!

[Curunen.8729]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

Exhaustion I said was a poor mechanic when it was applied to thief, I stand by that for Elusive Mind and even more so now with it now stacking. I feel so sorry for thieves.

Don't be, at least for now, it depends on the interpretation.My interpretation is that if you remove the 3 MICs you get 9sec exhaustion. But according to thieves the maximum amount is 4 sec, which makes kind of sense because it was suggested on a thief thread that it should depend on the MIC removed, so all in all it's a buff.

• Unhindered Combatant: The duration of exhaustion that this trait applies when dodging is now 2 seconds if crippled is present, 3 seconds if chilled is present, and 4 seconds if immobilized is present. Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

To me it means that given the prevalence of certain conditions it's made UC worse vs necro in general as you're likely to be hit by a 5s exhaustion hit per dodge. To put it bluntly you will have no regen from vigor at all. Ele will shut down your dodge regen with chill because they have double passive frost aura on their support build so that's now 6s exhaustion.

It's basically increasing the punishment from exhaustion for thieves and mesmers on certain traits and as I said exhaustion in my opinion is a really poor mechanic.

I've the same interpretation as you.

But according to thieves, if cripple is removed you get 2 seconds of exhaustion, if cripple and chilled are removed or just chilled - you get 3 seconds and if immobilize you get 4 sec independently if other MICs are present. In this view it's a buff because you get lesser overall exhaustion.Their interpretation makes sense considering that the change was suggested like that.

TBH I would prefer my interpretation out of the two, I don't think UC needs a buff. Thief already bypass a ton of mechanics on these game.

I don't think it will work like that, I think it will essentially apply a stack of exhaustion per condition removed so removing all 3 hits you with 9s. At least it would then be on par with EM :lol:

Well it seems thieves had it right, can only get maximum 4sec exhaustion.A trait that was already awesome got buffed.Meanwhile EM that was trash is still trash, gotta love to be ANet's favourite child!

I really don't understand why they didn't at least do the exact same contextual change to EM, if they're really adamant about not redesigning it.

I would have been ok if daze did 2s, fear/taunt 3s and stun/knockdown/etc gave 6s.

Seriously don't understand why this wasn't done at the same time...

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

Exhaustion I said was a poor mechanic when it was applied to thief, I stand by that for Elusive Mind and even more so now with it now stacking. I feel so sorry for thieves.

Don't be, at least for now, it depends on the interpretation.My interpretation is that if you remove the 3 MICs you get 9sec exhaustion. But according to thieves the maximum amount is 4 sec, which makes kind of sense because it was suggested on a thief thread that it should depend on the MIC removed, so all in all it's a buff.

• Unhindered Combatant: The duration of exhaustion that this trait applies when dodging is now 2 seconds if crippled is present, 3 seconds if chilled is present, and 4 seconds if immobilized is present. Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

To me it means that given the prevalence of certain conditions it's made UC worse vs necro in general as you're likely to be hit by a 5s exhaustion hit per dodge. To put it bluntly you will have no regen from vigor at all. Ele will shut down your dodge regen with chill because they have double passive frost aura on their support build so that's now 6s exhaustion.

It's basically increasing the punishment from exhaustion for thieves and mesmers on certain traits and as I said exhaustion in my opinion is a really poor mechanic.

I've the same interpretation as you.

But according to thieves, if cripple is removed you get 2 seconds of exhaustion, if cripple and chilled are removed or just chilled - you get 3 seconds and if immobilize you get 4 sec independently if other MICs are present. In this view it's a buff because you get lesser overall exhaustion.Their interpretation makes sense considering that the change was suggested like that.

TBH I would prefer my interpretation out of the two, I don't think UC needs a buff. Thief already bypass a ton of mechanics on these game.

I don't think it will work like that, I think it will essentially apply a stack of exhaustion per condition removed so removing all 3 hits you with 9s. At least it would then be on par with EM :lol:

Well it seems thieves had it right, can only get maximum 4sec exhaustion.A trait that was already awesome got buffed.Meanwhile EM that was trash is still trash, gotta love to be ANet's favourite child!

I really don't understand why they didn't at least do the exact same contextual change to EM, if they're really adamant about not redesigning it.

I would have been ok if daze did 2s, fear/taunt 3s and stun/knockdown/etc gave 6s.

Seriously don't understand why this wasn't done at the same time...

Better not give them ideas, that would still be an worseless trait. :)

[Curunen.8729]

True it would still be a bad problem.

It's just annoying that it's 3 months each time with "half-done" changes... I sincerely hope with the new structure at Anet there may be some kind of push for more frequent and thorough balance, rather than skimming through a dozen traits/skills each time and leaving it at that. :/

Edit - ok just been testing out new things, some feedback:

IA double nerf is too harsh - because the mc is also only 0.75s in addition to cd increase. Seriously questioning the value of taking this skill over better options. Especially when rng fails, it just becomes useless. 30s as in beta/demo would have been fine.

Nerf to mirage mirrors has also indirectly nerfed skills like Sand through Glass... lol like those needed it.

Overall the 0.75 mc is most felt not so much on evade access but mobility from superspeed. Movement is more sluggish especially without 25% speed boost, and feels less dynamic to play. Also together with the past Jaunt nerfs which IMO should be partly reverted (20s cooldown instead of 30).

The axe nerfs are lol... totally negligable in wvw - still able to hybrid burst. I see that ambush simply doesn't cast if facing away from a target. It's a bit of a joke when all these nerfs have done is reduce survivability further, but IH burst damage combos are still crazy.

So bottom line the only thing still bugging me is the total lack of interest in changing Elusive Mind.

[Curunen.8729]

Ok I am really digging Mirage Advance right now in place of (dead) IA.

But it's still a bit... meh.

Should Mirage Advance get same treatment as axe 3 with 0.75s evade built in? I think that single change would be the difference between MA being so-so and amazing.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Curunen.8729 said:Ok I am really digging Mirage Advance right now in place of (dead) IA.

But it's still a bit... meh.

Should Mirage Advance get same treatment as axe 3 with 0.75s evade built in? I think that single change would be the difference between MA being so-so and amazing.

I tried MA too when ANet announced the patch preview, it take some time to get used to it. I still think it should be instant or grant quickness when you finish the teleport.

[Curunen.8729]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:Ok I am really digging Mirage Advance right now in place of (dead) IA.

But it's still a bit... meh.

Should Mirage Advance get same treatment as axe 3 with 0.75s evade built in? I think that single change would be the difference between MA being so-so and amazing.

I tried MA too when ANet announced the patch preview, it take some time to get used to it. I still think it should be instant or grant quickness when you finish the teleport.

Yeah I remember, I've kind of swung back to it again and it has a nice juking potential with IH - kind of like deconstructed IA where you have to plan ahead a bit and setup but I honestly think I'm going to stick with it properly now.

I needed a "de-aggro" utility when in staff, and because stealth is just kitten with reflects (funny all the evasive mirror hate seems to ignore the fact that stealth does not work well with high reflect uptime, often instantly breaking rendering it useless - hence detarget more useful) I can't bring myself to use SoM because so boring (I never truly liked signets), Decoy is just too high cooldown since IC deletion, Veil is lol... Mirror Images is pure kitten, and IA now is just far too long cooldown for the effect.

MA on the other hand is lowest cooldown with reasonable complement to axe 3 for burst setup, eg when chasing, reasonable skill ceiling for creativity and overall fun to port around in combat.

I think it's healthy to not be instant - also kind of differentiates the mirage offensive ports from say thief sword 2 and similar.Axe 3 though has leap finisher and evade, and for MA to become more than a meme/niche pick it ought to have similar potential - at least the same evade frame.

Quickness seems nice idea for burst after cast though personally I wouldn't care too much here - I suppose that would help power mirage with GS/sword more though which could be worthwhile.

Will continue using it in any case and see how things go - may find situations where its shortcomings become more apparent.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Ok I am really digging Mirage Advance right now in place of (dead) IA.

But it's still a bit... meh.

Should Mirage Advance get same treatment as axe 3 with 0.75s evade built in? I think that single change would be the difference between MA being so-so and amazing.

I tried MA too when ANet announced the patch preview, it take some time to get used to it. I still think it should be instant or grant quickness when you finish the teleport.

Yeah I remember, I've kind of swung back to it again and it has a nice juking potential with IH - kind of like deconstructed IA where you have to plan ahead a bit and setup but I honestly think I'm going to stick with it properly now.

I needed a "de-aggro" utility when in staff, and because stealth is just kitten with reflects (funny all the evasive mirror hate seems to ignore the fact that stealth does not work well with high reflect uptime, often instantly breaking rendering it useless - hence detarget more useful) I can't bring myself to use SoM because so boring (I never truly liked signets), Decoy is just too high cooldown since IC deletion, Veil is lol... Mirror Images is pure kitten, and IA now is just far too long cooldown for the effect.

MA on the other hand is lowest cooldown with reasonable complement to axe 3 for burst setup, eg when chasing, reasonable skill ceiling for creativity and overall fun to port around in combat.

I think it's healthy to not be instant - also kind of differentiates the mirage offensive ports from say thief sword 2 and similar.Axe 3 though has leap finisher and evade, and for MA to become more than a meme/niche pick it ought to have similar potential - at least the same evade frame.

Quickness seems nice idea for burst after cast though personally I wouldn't care too much here - I suppose that would help power mirage with GS/sword more though which could be worthwhile.

Will continue using it in any case and see how things go - may find situations where its shortcomings become more apparent.

Yes, in a condi build it doesn't feel that lacking.I was talking from a power point of view, you can't combo mirror blade because of cast time, can't f3 as soon as you teleport because mirror blade has cast time. Perhaps using the sigil that gives quickness on swap on gs would do the trick, have to try it.

[Curunen.8729]

Yeah I totally appreciate that - to follow up MA with say GS2 combo etc. Do feedback how you get on with the quickness sigil or other ways of adapting it. :)

With axe it flows naturally as a secondary axe 3, or with staff there's nothing really to follow up with anyway save a shatter. In any case I'm tending to save the backport for use in staff as a pseudo-IA effect.

I imagine with scepter could be followed up with a block shatter combo (depending on situation), or sword could just be immediate BF shatter.

[SaferMurderweapon.7143]

This is the nail in the coffin for SoI for me. I wanna play a support, but I'm sick of just min/maxing Quickness and Alacrity. Mantra heals suck and there's no way to share boons effectively outside wells which no one ever stands in. Plus the work I have to do just to get another 9 seconds of Quickness and Alacrity compared to Renegade and Firebrand is absurd. Mesmer is just a portal slave to me now that is otherwise a waste of gold what with the constant over the top changes. This class needs to be changed to back when SoI could share boons rather than extend them and then left alone while buffing everything else. If the White Mantle Portal Device didn't have such a long cooldown, I would probably just delete my Mesmer.

[lare.5129]

Strange, but I like changes and don't feel any nerf in pve or pvp on mesmer. May be you need ppl that stand in wells and understand when and how to stack? So this is not your's problem at all. Add 300kp to your's party message and get pleasure from gameplay

[phokus.8934]

Fotm players moved to this ridiculous sustain Scrapper build.

Projectile hate is back again so as good as staff is, I don’t see it as a good matchup versus Scrapper. Power Mirage still seems to be a good option, though.

If they tone down some of the gyros then overall this is a good patch.

[Xaylin.1860]

@Curunen.8729 said:

Yeah sadly this is something I wouldn't like. After the changes, untraited axe will simply be kitten, so would hate it if condi removal is in the same tier.

I know what you mean and that it would hurt specific builds. Conceptually, it does make sense, though.

To be honest, I just wished Mirage got a significant review when it comes to traits. I do love the theme but the implementation was problematic from the start. I don't even want to talk about Mirrors. Now that numbers are nerfed I don't see a good reason to pick it anymore. Worse, it might see even more nerfes considering people hate playing against Mesmers due to its unarguably frustrating class mechanic. It's not trash. But it doesn't excite me.

I'm not looking for anything meta. I just want to enjoy some tricky gameplay (with lockdowns and interrupts).

[Curunen.8729]

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

Yeah sadly this is something I wouldn't like. After the changes, untraited axe will simply be kitten, so would hate it if condi removal is in the same tier.

I know what you mean and that it would hurt specific builds. Conceptually, it does make sense, though.

To be honest, I just wished Mirage got a significant review when it comes to traits. I do love the theme but the implementation was problematic from the start. I don't even want to talk about Mirrors. Now that numbers are nerfed I don't see a good reason to pick it anymore. Worse, it might see even more nerfes considering people hate playing against Mesmers due to its unarguably frustrating class mechanic. It's not trash. But it doesn't excite me.

I'm not looking for anything meta. I just want to enjoy some tricky gameplay (with lockdowns and interrupts).

Oh I agree hope to see for a huge mirage rework maybe by the next expansion/LW season when they can afford a significant patch.

Mirage is a bit of a mess at the moment - I don't like some of the design decisions in traits or skills and feel it should have been different - eg building around IH as minor trait as one thing.