Even After the Balance Update, Warrior Still Struggles with Mesmer

[mortrialus.3062]

@everyman.4375 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:Condi Mirage is still the most notably noob friendly garbage. Nerf it please. Remove at least another 50% of condition application.

It was already done last patch.

No. Wasn't. Need it done properly.

Cry of frustration cut in half and axe cut in half, that's the majority of mirage's damage cut in half.

Ineptitude also cut in half for those still running it.

[Snellibee.2761]

I always sigh so hard when I see threads about spellbreaker needing buffs, a good Warrior is almost unable to be killed. Time your dodges, FC, block at the right time to avoid big bursts, using FC at the right time to daze enemies, bull's charge and shield 4 to CC enemies to stop them from attacking you. Use rampage to literally stunlock anyone and kill people easily with how high the damage on those skills are.

Let's not forget all the healing you get with your signet + heal on adrenaline.Also let's not forget how fucking much damage Spellbreakers actually do, like literally they hit almost as hard as Revenants, pretty much every skill hits around 4-5k, and if you get caught by one of the CC's a warrior can literally melt your health down with Gs 3 and do over 14k damage.

Warriors are build so that they can use DPS amulets and traits whilst still having a ton of sustain, compare it to Weaver or something who needs to actually pick bunker amulets wich sacrifice damage just to not die, you warrior really have a good life.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"apharma.3741" said:Mesmer was nerfed in mostly the wrong areas. Confusion was never the issue.

"Yeah 18 confusion is balanced /s hurr durr" - If you're being hit by axes of symmetry and cry of frustration at the same time you are a potato and deserved it. Wait 3s or cleanse for a 3.5k damage hit, EZ.

"Yeah but should anyone stack 18 confusion?? [smugface]" -at 1400 condition damage confusion does 186 damage on activation, that's just shy of 3.5k damage at 18 stacks. Any power hit will do more, from any power class. You can also wait 3s for it to go and they can't do it for 22s and even cleanse it at the cost of barely any damage.

Confusion had more counterplay than most skills on power builds.

CONFUSION WAS NEVER THE PROBLEM

The problem was the combination of torment and confusion shutting you down if you make a mistake as well as imaginary axes applying so much the latter was addressed.

Here's what should have been addressed:

Torment removed from most mirage skills, change it to bleed for lower ramp up of damage.Axes of Symmetry should have a CD in line with core, 15s. (note this should be on all elite specs, their number 3 skills are all on much lower cool downs than core)Scepter block should be increased to 8s, reduce clone count to 1, maybe remove torment and add bleed or reduce it to 3 stacks.Scepter 3 should be reworked, I don't know what though, I'll admit that's bad feedback but 6 confusion on a 15s cool down with no channel would be good.Illusionary Ambush 25s, then next patch 30s while addressing similar really low CD defences on other classes so they all become more in line at the same time.Remove Auspicious Anguish distortion reset, make it a flat distortion cool down reduction of 5s or something.Evasive Mirror should have been tied to on heal and have a 20s ICD or something. Either way tie it to a skill use not on evading an attack, too much reflect uptime.

This reminds me of the Jawgeous rant where he talked about Axes of Symmetry stacking 25 stacks of confusion. Having personally hit him with an Axes of Symmatry+Cry of Frustration combo and done exactly that to him, I feel partially to blame for this.

Frankly confusion+torment were never the problem with mirage. Literally every meta build in the game can repeatedly shrug off 6+ conditions multiple times a fight except rev. That sort of spread and application is straight up necessary with how power crept condition cleanses are at the moment. Really Mirage's problem was dodge while stunned, the sheer level of clone spam, multiple detargets, infinite horizon flooding the screen with too many packets of damage you need to watch out for and Deceptive Evasion spawning clones actively performing their ambush attacks as soon as they spawn. There are already too many builds that are practically immune to condition damage they have so much cleanse and resistance.

Right now the biggest problem with condition mirage is the power coefficient on scepter.

[ezd.6359]

@Luna.6203 said:...if you fight mesmer you have to deal with:1) detargeting2) high mobility3) immune states4) and block insane burst dmg that coming to you all time with interrupts/dazes.

Put chain into his body. Wait for a phantasm, activate full counter.... profit!

[apharma.3741]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:Mesmer was nerfed in mostly the wrong areas. Confusion was never the issue.

"Yeah 18 confusion is balanced /s hurr durr" - If you're being hit by axes of symmetry and cry of frustration at the same time you are a potato and deserved it. Wait 3s or cleanse for a 3.5k damage hit, EZ.

"Yeah but should anyone stack 18 confusion?? [smugface]" -at 1400 condition damage confusion does 186 damage on activation, that's just shy of 3.5k damage at 18 stacks. Any power hit will do more, from any power class. You can also wait 3s for it to go and they can't do it for 22s and even cleanse it at the cost of barely any damage.

Confusion had more counterplay than most skills on power builds.

CONFUSION WAS NEVER THE PROBLEM

The problem was the combination of torment and confusion shutting you down if you make a mistake as well as imaginary axes applying so much the latter was addressed.

Here's what should have been addressed:

Torment removed from most mirage skills, change it to bleed for lower ramp up of damage.Axes of Symmetry should have a CD in line with core, 15s. (note this should be on all elite specs, their number 3 skills are all on much lower cool downs than core)Scepter block should be increased to 8s, reduce clone count to 1, maybe remove torment and add bleed or reduce it to 3 stacks.Scepter 3 should be reworked, I don't know what though, I'll admit that's bad feedback but 6 confusion on a 15s cool down with no channel would be good.Illusionary Ambush 25s, then next patch 30s while addressing similar really low CD defences on other classes so they all become more in line at the same time.Remove Auspicious Anguish distortion reset, make it a flat distortion cool down reduction of 5s or something.Evasive Mirror should have been tied to on heal and have a 20s ICD or something. Either way tie it to a skill use not on evading an attack, too much reflect uptime.

This reminds me of the Jawgeous rant where he talked about Axes of Symmetry stacking 25 stacks of confusion. Having personally hit him with an Axes of Symmatry+Cry of Frustration combo and done exactly that to him, I feel partially to blame for this.

Frankly confusion+torment were never the problem with mirage. Literally every meta build in the game can repeatedly shrug off 6+ conditions multiple times a fight except rev. That sort of spread and application is straight up necessary with how power crept condition cleanses are at the moment. Really Mirage's problem was dodge while stunned, the sheer level of clone spam, multiple detargets, infinite horizon flooding the screen with too many packets of damage you need to watch out for and Deceptive Evasion spawning clones actively performing their ambush attacks as soon as they spawn. There are already too many builds that are practically immune to condition damage they have so much cleanse and resistance.

Right now the biggest problem with condition mirage is the power coefficient on scepter.

Without a doubt if you choose condition cleansing there's far too much in the game and it will need toning down but the combo of torment and confusion has always been oppressive, so separating the two is probably a good idea in the long run which is why I'm an advocator of removing it from mirage (leave some torment in maim). What people don't say/realise is meta builds take barely any cleanses because power damage is the biggest threat and a lot of defence that works vs power also works vs condi.

I forgot dodging while stunned, mostly because I use stunbreaks, interrupts or distortion if I do get hit. Clone spam I don't agree with in the current meta, clones die super fast all the time now and it's been like that since HoT at least, in order to address "clone spam" as people label it they need to address how they get killed in 1 hit most of the time and 2 hits max by even menders classes.

The detarget thing I find weird as you explained how to trivialise it but I also mention about increasing the CD of both those skills (axes of symmetry and IA) so it's used more for defence than just spam spammily spam. With AoE detarget also becomes a non issue and if I'm being honest is entirely thematic with how a mesmer should be played, as a class that plays tricks.

Edit: It still doesn't change what I said, confusion was never the problem yet it's been gutted because of people like Jaw and his pack of nerf seals.

[mortrialus.3062]

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mesmer was nerfed in mostly the wrong areas. Confusion was never the issue.

"Yeah 18 confusion is balanced /s hurr durr" - If you're being hit by axes of symmetry and cry of frustration at the same time you are a potato and deserved it. Wait 3s or cleanse for a 3.5k damage hit, EZ.

"Yeah but should anyone stack 18 confusion?? [smugface]" -at 1400 condition damage confusion does 186 damage on activation, that's just shy of 3.5k damage at 18 stacks. Any power hit will do more, from any power class. You can also wait 3s for it to go and they can't do it for 22s and even cleanse it at the cost of barely any damage.

Confusion had more counterplay than most skills on power builds.

CONFUSION WAS NEVER THE PROBLEM

The problem was the combination of torment and confusion shutting you down if you make a mistake as well as imaginary axes applying so much the latter was addressed.

Here's what should have been addressed:

Torment removed from most mirage skills, change it to bleed for lower ramp up of damage.Axes of Symmetry should have a CD in line with core, 15s. (note this should be on all elite specs, their number 3 skills are all on much lower cool downs than core)Scepter block should be increased to 8s, reduce clone count to 1, maybe remove torment and add bleed or reduce it to 3 stacks.Scepter 3 should be reworked, I don't know what though, I'll admit that's bad feedback but 6 confusion on a 15s cool down with no channel would be good.Illusionary Ambush 25s, then next patch 30s while addressing similar really low CD defences on other classes so they all become more in line at the same time.Remove Auspicious Anguish distortion reset, make it a flat distortion cool down reduction of 5s or something.Evasive Mirror should have been tied to on heal and have a 20s ICD or something. Either way tie it to a skill use not on evading an attack, too much reflect uptime.

This reminds me of the Jawgeous rant where he talked about Axes of Symmetry stacking 25 stacks of confusion. Having personally hit him with an Axes of Symmatry+Cry of Frustration combo and done exactly that to him, I feel partially to blame for this.

Frankly confusion+torment were never the problem with mirage. Literally every meta build in the game can repeatedly shrug off 6+ conditions multiple times a fight except rev. That sort of spread and application is straight up necessary with how power crept condition cleanses are at the moment. Really Mirage's problem was dodge while stunned, the sheer level of clone spam, multiple detargets, infinite horizon flooding the screen with too many packets of damage you need to watch out for and Deceptive Evasion spawning clones actively performing their ambush attacks as soon as they spawn. There are already too many builds that are practically immune to condition damage they have so much cleanse and resistance.

Right now the biggest problem with condition mirage is the power coefficient on scepter.

Without a doubt if you choose condition cleansing there's far too much in the game and it will need toning down but the combo of torment and confusion has always been oppressive, so separating the two is probably a good idea in the long run which is why I'm an advocator of removing it from mirage (leave some torment in maim). What people don't say/realise is meta builds take barely any cleanses because power damage is the biggest threat and a lot of defence that works vs power also works vs condi.

I forgot dodging while stunned, mostly because I use stunbreaks, interrupts or distortion if I do get hit. Clone spam I don't agree with in the current meta, clones die super fast all the time now and it's been like that since HoT at least, in order to address "clone spam" as people label it they need to address how they get killed in 1 hit most of the time and 2 hits max by even menders classes.

The detarget thing I find weird as you explained how to trivialise it but I also mention about increasing the CD of both those skills (axes of symmetry and IA) so it's used more for defence than just spam spammily spam. With AoE detarget also becomes a non issue and if I'm being honest is entirely thematic with how a mesmer should be played, as a class that plays tricks.

Edit: It still doesn't change what I said, confusion was never the problem yet it's been gutted because of people like Jaw and his pack of nerf seals.

That you can trivialize it with proper keybinds doesn't negate how the community responded to those aspects, especially since it's pretty clear from the response to my post how few people knew you could do that.

[apharma.3741]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mesmer was nerfed in mostly the wrong areas. Confusion was never the issue.

"Yeah 18 confusion is balanced /s hurr durr" - If you're being hit by axes of symmetry and cry of frustration at the same time you are a potato and deserved it. Wait 3s or cleanse for a 3.5k damage hit, EZ.

"Yeah but should anyone stack 18 confusion?? [smugface]" -at 1400 condition damage confusion does 186 damage on activation, that's just shy of 3.5k damage at 18 stacks. Any power hit will do more, from any power class. You can also wait 3s for it to go and they can't do it for 22s and even cleanse it at the cost of barely any damage.

Confusion had more counterplay than most skills on power builds.

CONFUSION WAS NEVER THE PROBLEM

The problem was the combination of torment and confusion shutting you down if you make a mistake as well as imaginary axes applying so much the latter was addressed.

Here's what should have been addressed:

Torment removed from most mirage skills, change it to bleed for lower ramp up of damage.Axes of Symmetry should have a CD in line with core, 15s. (note this should be on all elite specs, their number 3 skills are all on much lower cool downs than core)Scepter block should be increased to 8s, reduce clone count to 1, maybe remove torment and add bleed or reduce it to 3 stacks.Scepter 3 should be reworked, I don't know what though, I'll admit that's bad feedback but 6 confusion on a 15s cool down with no channel would be good.Illusionary Ambush 25s, then next patch 30s while addressing similar really low CD defences on other classes so they all become more in line at the same time.Remove Auspicious Anguish distortion reset, make it a flat distortion cool down reduction of 5s or something.Evasive Mirror should have been tied to on heal and have a 20s ICD or something. Either way tie it to a skill use not on evading an attack, too much reflect uptime.

This reminds me of the Jawgeous rant where he talked about Axes of Symmetry stacking 25 stacks of confusion. Having personally hit him with an Axes of Symmatry+Cry of Frustration combo and done exactly that to him, I feel partially to blame for this.

Frankly confusion+torment were never the problem with mirage. Literally every meta build in the game can repeatedly shrug off 6+ conditions multiple times a fight except rev. That sort of spread and application is straight up necessary with how power crept condition cleanses are at the moment. Really Mirage's problem was dodge while stunned, the sheer level of clone spam, multiple detargets, infinite horizon flooding the screen with too many packets of damage you need to watch out for and Deceptive Evasion spawning clones actively performing their ambush attacks as soon as they spawn. There are already too many builds that are practically immune to condition damage they have so much cleanse and resistance.

Right now the biggest problem with condition mirage is the power coefficient on scepter.

Without a doubt if you choose condition cleansing there's far too much in the game and it will need toning down but the combo of torment and confusion has always been oppressive, so separating the two is probably a good idea in the long run which is why I'm an advocator of removing it from mirage (leave some torment in maim). What people don't say/realise is meta builds take barely any cleanses because power damage is the biggest threat and a lot of defence that works vs power also works vs condi.

I forgot dodging while stunned, mostly because I use stunbreaks, interrupts or distortion if I do get hit. Clone spam I don't agree with in the current meta, clones die super fast all the time now and it's been like that since HoT at least, in order to address "clone spam" as people label it they need to address how they get killed in 1 hit most of the time and 2 hits max by even menders classes.

The detarget thing I find weird as you explained how to trivialise it but I also mention about increasing the CD of both those skills (axes of symmetry and IA) so it's used more for defence than just spam spammily spam. With AoE detarget also becomes a non issue and if I'm being honest is entirely thematic with how a mesmer should be played, as a class that plays tricks.

Edit: It still doesn't change what I said, confusion was never the problem yet it's been gutted because of people like Jaw and his pack of nerf seals.

That you can trivialize it with proper keybinds doesn't negate how the community responded to those aspects, especially since it's pretty clear from the response to my post how few people knew you could do that.

Yeah but you don't balance your game around the wilfully ignorant nor the ignorantly stupid.

For the mod that inevitably see's this, I don't mean Mortrialus with that last part, it's a generalisation that you shouldn't balance around those types.

[storm.3120]

@apharma.3741 said:you forgot small detail. Chaos made sage mirage viable and too strong . Now any mirage builds that doesnt include chaos doomed to be goddamn awful . Is there been any non chaos mesmers in srs games?As from my feelings they just buried power mirage somewhere 'for gold division or lower' and so far as I heard cmirages go for scepter (dont believe they do well tho)

[mortrialus.3062]

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mesmer was nerfed in mostly the wrong areas. Confusion was never the issue.

"Yeah 18 confusion is balanced /s hurr durr" - If you're being hit by axes of symmetry and cry of frustration at the same time you are a potato and deserved it. Wait 3s or cleanse for a 3.5k damage hit, EZ.

"Yeah but should anyone stack 18 confusion?? [smugface]" -at 1400 condition damage confusion does 186 damage on activation, that's just shy of 3.5k damage at 18 stacks. Any power hit will do more, from any power class. You can also wait 3s for it to go and they can't do it for 22s and even cleanse it at the cost of barely any damage.

Confusion had more counterplay than most skills on power builds.

CONFUSION WAS NEVER THE PROBLEM

The problem was the combination of torment and confusion shutting you down if you make a mistake as well as imaginary axes applying so much the latter was addressed.

Here's what should have been addressed:

Torment removed from most mirage skills, change it to bleed for lower ramp up of damage.Axes of Symmetry should have a CD in line with core, 15s. (note this should be on all elite specs, their number 3 skills are all on much lower cool downs than core)Scepter block should be increased to 8s, reduce clone count to 1, maybe remove torment and add bleed or reduce it to 3 stacks.Scepter 3 should be reworked, I don't know what though, I'll admit that's bad feedback but 6 confusion on a 15s cool down with no channel would be good.Illusionary Ambush 25s, then next patch 30s while addressing similar really low CD defences on other classes so they all become more in line at the same time.Remove Auspicious Anguish distortion reset, make it a flat distortion cool down reduction of 5s or something.Evasive Mirror should have been tied to on heal and have a 20s ICD or something. Either way tie it to a skill use not on evading an attack, too much reflect uptime.

This reminds me of the Jawgeous rant where he talked about Axes of Symmetry stacking 25 stacks of confusion. Having personally hit him with an Axes of Symmatry+Cry of Frustration combo and done exactly that to him, I feel partially to blame for this.

Frankly confusion+torment were never the problem with mirage. Literally every meta build in the game can repeatedly shrug off 6+ conditions multiple times a fight except rev. That sort of spread and application is straight up necessary with how power crept condition cleanses are at the moment. Really Mirage's problem was dodge while stunned, the sheer level of clone spam, multiple detargets, infinite horizon flooding the screen with too many packets of damage you need to watch out for and Deceptive Evasion spawning clones actively performing their ambush attacks as soon as they spawn. There are already too many builds that are practically immune to condition damage they have so much cleanse and resistance.

Right now the biggest problem with condition mirage is the power coefficient on scepter.

Without a doubt if you choose condition cleansing there's far too much in the game and it will need toning down but the combo of torment and confusion has always been oppressive, so separating the two is probably a good idea in the long run which is why I'm an advocator of removing it from mirage (leave some torment in maim). What people don't say/realise is meta builds take barely any cleanses because power damage is the biggest threat and a lot of defence that works vs power also works vs condi.

I forgot dodging while stunned, mostly because I use stunbreaks, interrupts or distortion if I do get hit. Clone spam I don't agree with in the current meta, clones die super fast all the time now and it's been like that since HoT at least, in order to address "clone spam" as people label it they need to address how they get killed in 1 hit most of the time and 2 hits max by even menders classes.

The detarget thing I find weird as you explained how to trivialise it but I also mention about increasing the CD of both those skills (axes of symmetry and IA) so it's used more for defence than just spam spammily spam. With AoE detarget also becomes a non issue and if I'm being honest is entirely thematic with how a mesmer should be played, as a class that plays tricks.

Edit: It still doesn't change what I said, confusion was never the problem yet it's been gutted because of people like Jaw and his pack of nerf seals.

That you can trivialize it with proper keybinds doesn't negate how the community responded to those aspects, especially since it's pretty clear from the response to my post how few people knew you could do that.

Yeah but you don't balance your game around the wilfully ignorant nor the ignorantly stupid.

For the mod that inevitably see's this, I don't mean Mortrialus with that last part, it's a generalisation that you shouldn't balance around those types.

I'm aware, but I also think all the detarget wasn't well thought out or interesting as part of mirage's tool kit to begin with. Even trivialized it's not fun. It's either literally completely valueless or capable of throwing people for a serious loop. I've never liked Illusionary Ambush not only because I hate how random the location it puts you in but how completely intangible the benefit of having a detarget is. If I stealth I know exactly what I got out of it in terms of value. Detargets are really impossible to ever understand how much they really impact your capacity to win the fight. The playerbase hated them. I didn't care for them.

[apharma.3741]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mesmer was nerfed in mostly the wrong areas. Confusion was never the issue.

"Yeah 18 confusion is balanced /s hurr durr" - If you're being hit by axes of symmetry and cry of frustration at the same time you are a potato and deserved it. Wait 3s or cleanse for a 3.5k damage hit, EZ.

"Yeah but should anyone stack 18 confusion?? [smugface]" -at 1400 condition damage confusion does 186 damage on activation, that's just shy of 3.5k damage at 18 stacks. Any power hit will do more, from any power class. You can also wait 3s for it to go and they can't do it for 22s and even cleanse it at the cost of barely any damage.

Confusion had more counterplay than most skills on power builds.

CONFUSION WAS NEVER THE PROBLEM

The problem was the combination of torment and confusion shutting you down if you make a mistake as well as imaginary axes applying so much the latter was addressed.

Here's what should have been addressed:

Torment removed from most mirage skills, change it to bleed for lower ramp up of damage.Axes of Symmetry should have a CD in line with core, 15s. (note this should be on all elite specs, their number 3 skills are all on much lower cool downs than core)Scepter block should be increased to 8s, reduce clone count to 1, maybe remove torment and add bleed or reduce it to 3 stacks.Scepter 3 should be reworked, I don't know what though, I'll admit that's bad feedback but 6 confusion on a 15s cool down with no channel would be good.Illusionary Ambush 25s, then next patch 30s while addressing similar really low CD defences on other classes so they all become more in line at the same time.Remove Auspicious Anguish distortion reset, make it a flat distortion cool down reduction of 5s or something.Evasive Mirror should have been tied to on heal and have a 20s ICD or something. Either way tie it to a skill use not on evading an attack, too much reflect uptime.

This reminds me of the Jawgeous rant where he talked about Axes of Symmetry stacking 25 stacks of confusion. Having personally hit him with an Axes of Symmatry+Cry of Frustration combo and done exactly that to him, I feel partially to blame for this.

Frankly confusion+torment were never the problem with mirage. Literally every meta build in the game can repeatedly shrug off 6+ conditions multiple times a fight except rev. That sort of spread and application is straight up necessary with how power crept condition cleanses are at the moment. Really Mirage's problem was dodge while stunned, the sheer level of clone spam, multiple detargets, infinite horizon flooding the screen with too many packets of damage you need to watch out for and Deceptive Evasion spawning clones actively performing their ambush attacks as soon as they spawn. There are already too many builds that are practically immune to condition damage they have so much cleanse and resistance.

Right now the biggest problem with condition mirage is the power coefficient on scepter.

Without a doubt if you choose condition cleansing there's far too much in the game and it will need toning down but the combo of torment and confusion has always been oppressive, so separating the two is probably a good idea in the long run which is why I'm an advocator of removing it from mirage (leave some torment in maim). What people don't say/realise is meta builds take barely any cleanses because power damage is the biggest threat and a lot of defence that works vs power also works vs condi.

I forgot dodging while stunned, mostly because I use stunbreaks, interrupts or distortion if I do get hit. Clone spam I don't agree with in the current meta, clones die super fast all the time now and it's been like that since HoT at least, in order to address "clone spam" as people label it they need to address how they get killed in 1 hit most of the time and 2 hits max by even menders classes.

The detarget thing I find weird as you explained how to trivialise it but I also mention about increasing the CD of both those skills (axes of symmetry and IA) so it's used more for defence than just spam spammily spam. With AoE detarget also becomes a non issue and if I'm being honest is entirely thematic with how a mesmer should be played, as a class that plays tricks.

Edit: It still doesn't change what I said, confusion was never the problem yet it's been gutted because of people like Jaw and his pack of nerf seals.

That you can trivialize it with proper keybinds doesn't negate how the community responded to those aspects, especially since it's pretty clear from the response to my post how few people knew you could do that.

Yeah but you don't balance your game around the wilfully ignorant nor the ignorantly stupid.

For the mod that inevitably see's this, I don't mean Mortrialus with that last part, it's a generalisation that you shouldn't balance around those types.

I'm aware, but I also think all the detarget wasn't well thought out or interesting as part of mirage's tool kit to begin with. Even trivialized it's not fun. It's either literally completely valueless or capable of throwing people for a serious loop. I've never liked Illusionary Ambush not only because I hate how random the location it puts you in but how completely intangible the benefit of having a detarget is. If I stealth I know exactly what I got out of it in terms of value. Detargets are really impossible to ever understand how much they really impact your capacity to win the fight. The playerbase hated them. I didn't care for them.

Fair enough, I personally like the idea of dropping target and getting lost in the clones, I think it is thematic of an illusionist even if the playerbase hates it, at the end of the day it is exactly what the class is supposed to be. The problem is clones are so easy to kill and behave nothing like a person would so it's hard to get value.

I personally don't find endless sustain builds very fun, you know the builds where they tank your burst but heal back to 100% before your burst is up again. I don't find builds that have multiple hard hitting abilities on low cool downs with no real set up required fun yet here we are and no-one cares.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

I was wondering how long it would be before someone came to complain about Mesmer even after the latest round of nerfs. I was really hoping the never ending complaints were in the past, but I knew that was too optimistic.

Well the nerfs did something: It seems FOTM Mirages are mostly gone (a good thing), as I'm often the only Mirage in the match. I'm seeing more chronos lately instead. And pretty much guaranteed on each team are still guardian, necro, and thief of some sort.

@Luna.6203 said:Well some of you might say problem is not mesmer but warrior but i don't have problem with other classes. I thing warrior is still in decent position when it comes to pvp just these mesmers are still problem.

I don't think the fact your warrior has no problem with every class in the game except mesmer means mesmer is OP. Now, more than ever, there are plenty of builds that can stand up to mesmers of all stripes. Warrior may not be the most effective. That doesn't mean mesmer is OP.

@"apharma.3741" said:Mesmer was nerfed in mostly the wrong areas. Confusion was never the issue.

"Yeah 18 confusion is balanced /s hurr durr" - If you're being hit by axes of symmetry and cry of frustration at the same time you are a potato and deserved it. Wait 3s or cleanse for a 3.5k damage hit, EZ.

"Yeah but should anyone stack 18 confusion?? [smugface]" -at 1400 condition damage confusion does 186 damage on activation, that's just shy of 3.5k damage at 18 stacks. Any power hit will do more, from any power class. You can also wait 3s for it to go and they can't do it for 22s and even cleanse it at the cost of barely any damage.

Confusion had more counterplay than most skills on power builds.

CONFUSION WAS NEVER THE PROBLEM

^ This, so very much this. Sometimes I feel even other Mesmers give condi-Mirage a bad rap just because they play power. People in general freak out about the idea of confusion damage which has so much more counterplay and does modest damage compared to power.

The problem was the combination of torment and confusion shutting you down if you make a mistake as well as imaginary axes applying so much the latter was addressed.

Here's what should have been addressed:

Torment removed from most mirage skills, change it to bleed for lower ramp up of damage.Axes of Symmetry should have a CD in line with core, 15s. (note this should be on all elite specs, their number 3 skills are all on much lower cool downs than core)Scepter block should be increased to 8s, reduce clone count to 1, maybe remove torment and add bleed or reduce it to 3 stacks.Scepter 3 should be reworked, I don't know what though, I'll admit that's bad feedback but 6 confusion on a 15s cool down with no channel would be good.Illusionary Ambush 25s, then next patch 30s while addressing similar really low CD defences on other classes so they all become more in line at the same time.Remove Auspicious Anguish distortion reset, make it a flat distortion cool down reduction of 5s or something.Evasive Mirror should have been tied to on heal and have a 20s ICD or something. Either way tie it to a skill use not on evading an attack, too much reflect uptime.

With the addition of ending dodging while CC'd, I think these are solid ideas. And if implemented, could we maybe, possibly, say goodbye to the days of people complaining about Mesmers ad nauseam? And recognizing that if they lose to a Mesmer in its reworked state, the player maybe had a bit of skill? Please?

[BadMed.3846]

@apharma.3741 nailed it with:The problem was the combination of torment and confusion shutting you down if you make a mistake as well as imaginary axes applying so much the latter was addressed.

[Zephoid.4263]

Right.... skill....https://plays.tv/s/M7Rqn-AGL4JV22k damage, <1s. This was after he stealth and blinked away. I tried to disengage by shortbow 5 up to the bridge, only to find he had done the same. You can't even see the clones before they detonate. How are you supposed to time dodges or evades when he can just do this shit?

Thankfully they at least tried to tone down mirage last patch (largely failing, but at least they did something). The power build is still a problem and obnoxious as hell to 1/2 the classes in this game who just get 1 shot by this shit.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Luna.6203" said:1) detargeting

For those not in the know, there is a keybind you can set in menu called "Previous Target."

Bind it to something.

It's pretty simple. If you detarget something manually, or are forced a detarget by a mesmer, or target something else it will retarget your previous target for you. A mesmer uses detarget? You can retarget them with 100% guarantee with the push of a button immediately. No tab targeting through clones.

Mesmer thief or anything else stealths? You can retarget them once they've left with with 100% effectiveness. No tabbing through clones or other enemy team members. Always just get your previous target 100% of the time.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:um...that's a weird analogy because spellbreakers counter mirage

Condi mirage eats spellbreakers alive unless heavily outskilled in my experience. The only normal skill I find seriously threatening I feel is Whirlwind Blade because of how fast it comes out and how much damage it can do if they've ramped 20+ might stacks. Rampage can be threatening if caught off guard but even then chances are you have stun breaks, stealth, Phase Retreat, Blink, and if they managed to CC you you can still dodge while stunned. Frankly more often than not rampage is more an opportunity to counter pressure them and win the fight because they abandon access to condition cleanses and resistance. Like there have been so many times where the Spellbreaker is sustaining really well or landed a good hit on me and had me worried I might lose and then threw the fight because they rampaged and gave me an opportunity to dump all my damage into them for free. Doubly so because Warriors in rampage are usually in such a rush to dump out damage in Rampage form that they frequently don't bother to dodge..

Like the only Spellbreakers I lose to are guys who hang out in the top 25 really consistently.

Where is the Previous Target? I'm looking through the Targeting in the key bindings, and the closest to it is Previous Enemy, which doesn't do what you mentioned.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@BadMed.3846 said:@apharma.3741 nailed it with:The problem was the combination of torment and confusion shutting you down if you make a mistake as well as imaginary axes applying so much the latter was addressed.

Wait, so if @apharma.3741 "nailed it" regarding what was wrong and how it was nerfed, do we take you seriously when you also say:

@BadMed.3846 said:Condi Mirage is still the most notably noob friendly garbage. Nerf it please. Remove at least another 50% of condition application.

and

@BadMed.3846 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:Condi Mirage is still the most notably noob friendly garbage. Nerf it please. Remove at least another 50% of condition application.

It was already done last patch.

No. Wasn't. Need it done properly.

?

Food for thought.

Honestly, if you aren't new to PvP and still struggle with average condi-Mirages after March 5, 2019, I don't know what to tell you.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Luna.6203" said:1) detargeting

For those not in the know, there is a keybind you can set in menu called "Previous Target."

Bind it to something.

It's pretty simple. If you detarget something manually, or are forced a detarget by a mesmer, or target something else it will retarget your previous target for you. A mesmer uses detarget? You can retarget them with 100% guarantee with the push of a button immediately. No tab targeting through clones.

Mesmer thief or anything else stealths? You can retarget them once they've left with with 100% effectiveness. No tabbing through clones or other enemy team members. Always just get your previous target 100% of the time.

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:um...that's a weird analogy because spellbreakers counter mirage

Condi mirage eats spellbreakers alive unless heavily outskilled in my experience. The only normal skill I find seriously threatening I feel is Whirlwind Blade because of how fast it comes out and how much damage it can do if they've ramped 20+ might stacks. Rampage can be threatening if caught off guard but even then chances are you have stun breaks, stealth, Phase Retreat, Blink, and if they managed to CC you you can still dodge while stunned. Frankly more often than not rampage is more an opportunity to counter pressure them and win the fight because they abandon access to condition cleanses and resistance. Like there have been so many times where the Spellbreaker is sustaining really well or landed a good hit on me and had me worried I might lose and then threw the fight because they rampaged and gave me an opportunity to dump all my damage into them for free. Doubly so because Warriors in rampage are usually in such a rush to dump out damage in Rampage form that they frequently don't bother to dodge..

Like the only Spellbreakers I lose to are guys who hang out in the top 25 really consistently.

Where is the Previous Target? I'm looking through the Targeting in the key bindings, and the closest to it is Previous Enemy, which doesn't do what you mentioned.

Apologies! This was a good catch of a mistake of mine. It's "Previous Enemy" specifically that I'm talking about.

Previous enemy will do what I mentioned provided the mirage was the previous target.

[Luna.6203]

@"Zephoid.4263" said:Right.... skill....https://plays.tv/s/M7Rqn-AGL4JV22k damage, <1s. This was after he stealth and blinked away. I tried to disengage by shortbow 5 up to the bridge, only to find he had done the same. You can't even see the clones before they detonate. How are you supposed to time dodges or evades when he can just do this kitten?

Thankfully they at least tried to tone down mirage last patch (largely failing, but at least they did something). The power build is still a problem and obnoxious as hell to 1/2 the classes in this game who just get 1 shot by this kitten.

Haha! 4th. video:Moo.

(Leave.)

---

Anyway I think Anet should have test it itself.. take warrior take mesmer and try it... Don't listen players that say mesmers are okay.. don't listen me either. Just try it yourself. Then they have to see how hopeless that fight is for warrior.

Lot of people playing mesmers and lot of people play class that can actually kill mesmer so they dont see problem. With that post i'm going against majority and to be honest i'm surprised how many people confirmed at least some of my points.. I have expected a lot more denial.. Mesmer is one of the most played class in pvp and statement mesmer is dead is 100% false. They are almost in every pvp game still two mesmers per team is common situation that you have to face. Anet for sure have some statistics that shows if it true or not. Because as regular player its just bit random who you getting in matches so it can be misleading.

And this thread is not only about mesmers. Warriors gap closers are just broken and if you compare them to how teleport works now .. well there is serious issue for class that is melee. Seriously try to catch mesmer in middle of battle of kyhlo that can port up and down. I know they did that in good faith to fix path-find issue. Which is great. I don't really want to be mean or rude to developers that have limited resources and i dont expect perfect balance it's not even possible. They doing great job with game and its still my favorite mmorpg. I don't even care about pvp that much. Just that mesmer issue is there for months and i just wanted to reveal that problem is still there and it just not over even after last balance patch.

Warrior can deal some good dmg no doubt about it.. But it's pointless if you can't hit target.. i would rather have lower damage and proper dashes/jumps. that is the reason why im using dagger btw. even though damage is useless. But dagger dash works well.. It's even quite fast without initial delay. It's just too short so you still need GS. You still have to work with GS broken rush.. I don't even want to talk about other weapons like hammer jump.. shield bash.. or utilities like stomp.. Its so slow in current state of game its so bad.

Warrior core mechanics are just outdated.. spellbreaker skills are mostly useless as well as traits.. like dagger trait.. or trait revenge counter which gives you 20% bonus damage to full counter.. But you somehow forgot that with current counter damage this trait is bit useless now isn't it ? And don't get me started about berserker. Sorry i know i'm bit offensive now but it's just how it it. I had to say it.

But i don't really want to complain about warrior that much overall. I'm really focused for side points and dueling/sustain and i think i'm pretty successful at 1v1 situations with warrior. But when i see mesmer sometimes i rather leave point for another / center point fight.. because I'm really sick of this fights. It's incredibly annoying and there is very low chance for win.. In best scenario you will force that mesmer to leave point. But you will not kill him so he will heal up and return after few seconds and all kitty fight start over. /suicide

[Luna.6203]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Luna.6203" said:1) detargeting

For those not in the know, there is a keybind you can set in menu called "Previous Target."

Bind it to something.

It's pretty simple. If you detarget something manually, or are forced a detarget by a mesmer, or target something else it will retarget your previous target for you. A mesmer uses detarget? You can retarget them with 100% guarantee with the push of a button immediately. No tab targeting through clones.

Mesmer thief or anything else stealths? You can retarget them once they've left with with 100% effectiveness. No tabbing through clones or other enemy team members. Always just get your previous target 100% of the time.

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:um...that's a weird analogy because spellbreakers counter mirage

Condi mirage eats spellbreakers alive unless heavily outskilled in my experience. The only normal skill I find seriously threatening I feel is Whirlwind Blade because of how fast it comes out and how much damage it can do if they've ramped 20+ might stacks. Rampage can be threatening if caught off guard but even then chances are you have stun breaks, stealth, Phase Retreat, Blink, and if they managed to CC you you can still dodge while stunned. Frankly more often than not rampage is more an opportunity to counter pressure them and win the fight because they abandon access to condition cleanses and resistance. Like there have been so many times where the Spellbreaker is sustaining really well or landed a good hit on me and had me worried I might lose and then threw the fight because they rampaged and gave me an opportunity to dump all my damage into them for free. Doubly so because Warriors in rampage are usually in such a rush to dump out damage in Rampage form that they frequently don't bother to dodge..

Like the only Spellbreakers I lose to are guys who hang out in the top 25 really consistently.

Where is the Previous Target? I'm looking through the Targeting in the key bindings, and the closest to it is Previous Enemy, which doesn't do what you mentioned.

Apologies! This was a good catch of a mistake of mine. It's "Previous Enemy" specifically that I'm talking about.

Btw nice image you actually pointing at this line .. it's so cool ;)

I will probably put it into test this evening with some pvp matches. Thanks again!

[Koen.1327]

i hardly notice a difference after the patch, i still use axe and IAIA is still the best for escaping, it's random but combined with blink you can cover a massive distance - cd is only 5 secs longer so they should be up both when you need them. I wouldn't just use it randomly use it like a 20 sec cd skill would do so i guess this is a little less obnoxious. Remember, IA wasn't even used until portal was trashed so an extra utility was a big + in fights

as for the axe nerfs, i find them very minor considering the passive dmg has not changed and a bulk of the dmg comes from direct dmg as well which hasn't changed either. Another thing is that clones now aim axe ambush towards your enemy, so far it seems much faster and it hits more often than before.

the time reduction of mirage cloak is noticeable in team fights i would say but in 1v1 i don't notice a difference. If you have the endurance you can now generate clones a little faster should you need them for a distortion res/stomp. Projectile defense is completely untouched btw

arcane thievery, evasive mirror and deceptive evasion are very overpowered on mirage but they are core skills so i wouldn't like to see them gone.

last but not least, even though the meta hasn't really changed, other side-noders got nerfed as well and games come with a little bit more sustain due to the rise of scrapper. For games without rev or holo you can easily run illusions instead chaos for a sweet dmg buff and aoe cc

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Koen.1327 said:i hardly notice a difference after the patch, i still use axe and IAIA is still the best for escaping, it's random but combined with blink you can cover a massive distance - cd is only 5 secs longer so they should be up both when you need them. I wouldn't just use it randomly use it like a 20 sec cd skill would do so i guess this is a little less obnoxious. Remember, IA wasn't even used until portal was trashed so an extra utility was a big + in fights

as for the axe nerfs, i find them very minor considering the passive dmg has not changed and a bulk of the dmg comes from direct dmg as well which hasn't changed either. Another thing is that clones now aim axe ambush towards your enemy, so far it seems much faster and it hits more often than before.

the time reduction of mirage cloak is noticeable in team fights i would say but in 1v1 i don't notice a difference. If you have the endurance you can now generate clones a little faster should you need them for a distortion res/stomp. Projectile defense is completely untouched btw

arcane thievery, evasive mirror and deceptive evasion are very overpowered on mirage but they are core skills so i wouldn't like to see them gone.

last but not least, even though the meta hasn't really changed, other side-noders got nerfed as well and games come with a little bit more sustain due to the rise of scrapper. For games without rev or holo you can easily run illusions instead chaos for a sweet dmg buff and aoe cc

IA got a 15sec nerf, not 5 and the only reason some people run this is because all competing mesmer utilities are trash.Axe ambush which was the biggest threat of torment got 66% nerf, confusion got hard nerfed as well.MC was a huge nerf considering that all ambush cast times and axe 2 which demands a mc cover were left intact.

As for the last sentence... Turns out the mc cut was actually a buff...

[Koen.1327]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Koen.1327 said:i hardly notice a difference after the patch, i still use axe and IAIA is still the best for escaping, it's random but combined with blink you can cover a massive distance - cd is only 5 secs longer so they should be up both when you need them. I wouldn't just use it randomly use it like a 20 sec cd skill would do so i guess this is a little less obnoxious. Remember, IA wasn't even used until portal was trashed so an extra utility was a big + in fights

as for the axe nerfs, i find them very minor considering the passive dmg has not changed and a bulk of the dmg comes from direct dmg as well which hasn't changed either. Another thing is that clones now aim axe ambush towards your enemy, so far it seems much faster and it hits more often than before.

the time reduction of mirage cloak is noticeable in team fights i would say but in 1v1 i don't notice a difference. If you have the endurance you can now generate clones a little faster should you need them for a distortion res/stomp. Projectile defense is completely untouched btw

arcane thievery, evasive mirror and deceptive evasion are very overpowered on mirage but they are core skills so i wouldn't like to see them gone.

last but not least, even though the meta hasn't really changed, other side-noders got nerfed as well and games come with a little bit more sustain due to the rise of scrapper. For games without rev or holo you can easily run illusions instead chaos for a sweet dmg buff and aoe cc

IA got a 15sec nerf, not 5 and the only reason some people run this is because all competing mesmer utilities are trash.Axe ambush which was the biggest threat of torment got 66% nerf, confusion got hard nerfed as well.MC was a huge nerf considering that all ambush cast times and axe 2 which demands a mc cover were left intact.

As for the last sentence... Turns out the mc cut was actually a buff...

sorry what i mean is the cd is 5 seconds longer than blink so you can synchronize them quite well, that is if you don't run manipulation trait of course.

yes both mesmer dmg and sustain is nerfed, but all in all only minor in my opinion

[Simonoly.4352]

I certainly agree that it can be hard for a Warrior to land damage under certain circumstances against high mobility targets, but that is really rather the point. It's up to the Warrior to work the problem and lock down the Mesmer and it's the Mesmer's job to ensure that doesn't happen. Certain scenarios will play out in favour of the Mesmer and others the Warrior. Often, on my Mesmer, I'm simply waiting for various active and passive stance effects to end on the Warrior so I can start dishing out effective damage or use CC again. The whole time the Warrior is jut going full ham on me and so I obviously need mobility and active sustain options to deal with this. But I won't always have enough mobility or evades to deal with this and I will just get destroyed by a Rampaging Spellbreaker. It feels like the interplay of the two classes is working as intended really.

[Burnfall.9573]

if i may add

Mesmer -Dlowana-

The only solution to repairing Mesmer is to rework/redesign them

[phokus.8934]

A wvw video in a pvp subection - about par for Burnfail.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"Burnfall.9573" said:if i may add

Mesmer -Dlowana-

The only solution to repairing Mesmer is to rework/redesign them

What should mesmer be capable of as a class?