xxxxxxxxxx

[storm.3120]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Do you really want to see mesmer nerfed to the ground because "it's still meta cuz portal"?Its not nerfed enough? :joy:Probably for you will be never enough until mesmer becomes a clone.(...)

I am an ele main. Tell me more about nerfs, please, I would love to hear your stories.

Do you not remember condi chrono in HoT? Which was only meta due to portal and severly lacked fighting capabilities? Do we really want these times back?

What do you mean?

Concerning what?

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Do you really want to see mesmer nerfed to the ground because "it's still meta cuz portal"?Its not nerfed enough? :joy:Probably for you will be never enough until mesmer becomes a clone.(...)

I am an ele main. Tell me more about nerfs, please, I would love to hear your stories.

Do you not remember condi chrono in HoT? Which was only meta due to portal and severly lacked fighting capabilities? Do we really want these times back?

That isnt true even . The only time chrono been 'trash' at fighting others its before pof release they nerfed it and just because pof was coming I believe.Also its pretty same situation for mirage now. Scepter is dumb-carry stick for everything mesmer plays and chaos traitline (you couldnt play without chaos because you were pretty easy to kill without protection/vigor but now its mandatory, wooo!) Take it away and we will see what is left

Maybe I overexaggerated a little. :wink:

But condi chrono was still meta right before PoF while kind of lacking in many other fields - mainly due to portal. It supplied superior mobility for teams and allowed huge map rotations, so to make it not completely OP, mesmer had to be nerfed to be not even in pure fighting capabilities (condi lacking in damage, power in survivability - again, relatively speaking).

The choice has been for a while: Either give portal to others, nerf portal or nerf mesmer all around, because it's single utility skill is just incredibly powerful. Choose one.

(And yes, again, I think the nerfs were harsh.)

I am absolutely with you on chaos/scepter changes. I think we agree on the condi mirage nerfs not addressing the right issues (even worse, often nerfs to power mesmer) and the need for an overhaul. I.e. make sword 2 great again instead of scepter 2.

They trashed vigor and left it 3/10 while others 5/10 and effortlessly ride on perma vigor while we had to invest into it THREE traits to get vigor ,I dont have to tell you how crucial vigor for mirage right ? Just to nerf mirage they decided would be nice to nerf core and sw2 and still suicidal 8 hits (while dealing close to no damage) into retal on bunch of ppl still there when pistol whip was 'fixed' .Not like my rant is going to change anythning anyway

[Snellibee.2761]

I'd also like portal to go back to where it was, aswel as indeed nerf scepter. That will make mesmer have a unique role instead of just something that can kill everything quickly. It would also open up a lot more strategic teamplay in structured pvp. Although I feel like anet is against having classes with mechanics that reward you for strategy and thinking and rather want all classes to be casual as fuck to play

[Xstein.2187]

Portal is one of those things that can just exacerbate a problem. If mirage/chrono/mes is OP to begin with, then it can be a nightmare for the other team. However, if the class is properly balanced than the skill isn't really that bad now days, especially if you aren't playing on a team. I would think they could limit down the number of people who can go through a portal to help balance out team play. I mean, portal was around before both HoT and PoF. It functioned in the traditional way before it's nerf for years.

Basically, the devs went after portal instead of going after the OP nature of condi mirage which when nerfed would have in turn brought down the devastation or portal anyways.

What a surprise, they nerfed core mes again.

[storm.3120]

@Xstein.2187 said:Portal is one of those things that can just exacerbate a problem. If mirage/chrono/mes is OP to begin with, then it can be a nightmare for the other team. However, if the class is properly balanced than the skill isn't really that bad now days, especially if you aren't playing on a team. I would think they could limit down the number of people who can go through a portal to help balance out team play. I mean, portal was around before both HoT and PoF. It functioned in the traditional way before it's nerf for years.

Basically, the devs went after portal instead of going after the OP nature of condi mirage which when nerfed would have in turn brought down the devastation or portal anyways.

What a surprise, they nerfed core mes again. So glad I don't play anymore.

Well ...about limiting number of ppl who can pass it ... Im not sure if you ever seen it but sometimes you couldnt take your own portal or allies ... fun times... xD

[mortrialus.3062]

@"Xstein.2187" said:Portal is one of those things that can just exacerbate a problem. If mirage/chrono/mes is OP to begin with, then it can be a nightmare for the other team. However, if the class is properly balanced than the skill isn't really that bad now days, especially if you aren't playing on a team. I would think they could limit down the number of people who can go through a portal to help balance out team play. I mean, portal was around before both HoT and PoF. It functioned in the traditional way before it's nerf for years.

Basically, the devs went after portal instead of going after the OP nature of condi mirage which when nerfed would have in turn brought down the devastation or portal anyways.

What a surprise, they nerfed core mes again. So glad I don't play anymore.

When people wanted condition mirage nerfed, they basically pointed out at literally every aspect of the class and cried nerf. This included portal and there was no shortage of people gloating over portal when it got smiter's booned.

Yet when portal got nuked and the nerf mesmer chorus assured me that it was "top tier, but no longer mandatory and only good mesmers can be good with it now" can maybe come back and explain why no one including top mesmer players are running the skill at all anymore if its still so "top tier". I guess people like Chaith and Shadowpass and Vagrant are 500 IQ higher than the highest IQ mesmers and if they picked up the class now they'd be better than the best mesmer players ever were with the best portal plays ever seen since they were all so convinced it'd be top tier in their savy hands.

[storm.3120]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Xstein.2187" said:Portal is one of those things that can just exacerbate a problem. If mirage/chrono/mes is OP to begin with, then it can be a nightmare for the other team. However, if the class is properly balanced than the skill isn't really that bad now days, especially if you aren't playing on a team. I would think they could limit down the number of people who can go through a portal to help balance out team play. I mean, portal was around before both HoT and PoF. It functioned in the traditional way before it's nerf for years.

Basically, the devs went after portal instead of going after the OP nature of condi mirage which when nerfed would have in turn brought down the devastation or portal anyways.

What a surprise, they nerfed core mes again. So glad I don't play anymore.

When people wanted condition mirage nerf, they basically pointed out at literally every aspect of the class and cried nerf. This included portal and there was

no shortage of people gloating

over portal when it got smiter's booned.

Yet when portal got nuked and the nerf mesmer chorus assured me that it was "top tier, but no longer mandatory and only good mesmers can be good with it now" can maybe come back and explain why no one including top mesmer players are running the skill at all anymore if its still so "top tier". I guess people like Chaith and Shadowpass and Vagrant are 500 IQ higher than the highest IQ mesmers and if they picked up the class now they'd be better than the best mesmer players ever were with the best portal plays ever seen since they were all so convinced it'd be top tier in their savy hands.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Xstein.2187" said:Portal is one of those things that can just exacerbate a problem. If mirage/chrono/mes is OP to begin with, then it can be a nightmare for the other team. However, if the class is properly balanced than the skill isn't really that bad now days, especially if you aren't playing on a team. I would think they could limit down the number of people who can go through a portal to help balance out team play. I mean, portal was around before both HoT and PoF. It functioned in the traditional way before it's nerf for years.

Basically, the devs went after portal instead of going after the OP nature of condi mirage which when nerfed would have in turn brought down the devastation or portal anyways.

What a surprise, they nerfed core mes again. So glad I don't play anymore.

When people wanted condition mirage nerf, they basically pointed out at literally every aspect of the class and cried nerf. This included portal and there was

no shortage of people gloating

over portal when it got smiter's booned.

Yet when portal got nuked and the nerf mesmer chorus assured me that it was "top tier, but no longer mandatory and only good mesmers can be good with it now" can maybe come back and explain why no one including top mesmer players are running the skill at all anymore if its still so "top tier". I guess people like Chaith and Shadowpass and Vagrant are 500 IQ higher than the highest IQ mesmers and if they picked up the class now they'd be better than the best mesmer players ever were with the best portal plays ever seen since they were all so convinced it'd be top tier in their savy hands.

They are not qualified to have an opinion about class they not main and clearly biased ©

[Mega.5791]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Do you really want to see mesmer nerfed to the ground because "it's still meta cuz portal"?Its not nerfed enough? :joy:Probably for you will be never enough until mesmer becomes a clone.(...)

I am an ele main. Tell me more about nerfs, please, I would love to hear your stories.

Do you not remember condi chrono in HoT? Which was only meta due to portal and severly lacked fighting capabilities? Do we really want these times back?

What do you mean?

Concerning what?

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Do you really want to see mesmer nerfed to the ground because "it's still meta cuz portal"?Its not nerfed enough? :joy:Probably for you will be never enough until mesmer becomes a clone.(...)

I am an ele main. Tell me more about nerfs, please, I would love to hear your stories.

Do you not remember condi chrono in HoT? Which was only meta due to portal and severly lacked fighting capabilities? Do we really want these times back?

That isnt true even . The only time chrono been 'trash' at fighting others its before pof release they nerfed it and just because pof was coming I believe.Also its pretty same situation for mirage now. Scepter is dumb-carry stick for everything mesmer plays and chaos traitline (you couldnt play without chaos because you were pretty easy to kill without protection/vigor but now its mandatory, wooo!) Take it away and we will see what is left

Maybe I overexaggerated a little. :wink:

But condi chrono was still meta right before PoF while kind of lacking in many other fields - mainly due to portal. It supplied superior mobility for teams and allowed huge map rotations, so to make it not completely OP, mesmer had to be nerfed to be not even in pure fighting capabilities (condi lacking in damage, power in survivability - again, relatively speaking).

The choice has been for a while: Either give portal to others, nerf portal or nerf mesmer all around, because it's single utility skill is just incredibly powerful. Choose one.

(And yes, again, I think the nerfs were harsh.)

I am absolutely with you on chaos/scepter changes. I think we agree on the condi mirage nerfs not addressing the right issues (even worse, often nerfs to power mesmer) and the need for an overhaul. I.e. make sword 2 great again instead of scepter 2.

They trashed vigor and left it 3/10 while others 5/10 and effortlessly ride on perma vigor while we had to invest into it THREE traits to get vigor ,I dont have to tell you how crucial vigor for mirage right ? Just to nerf mirage they decided would be nice to nerf core and sw2 and still suicidal 8 hits (while dealing close to no damage) into retal on bunch of ppl still there when pistol whip was 'fixed' .Not like my rant is going to change anythning anyway

Well, lots of vigor was just powercreeped indeed. Mirage has an okay amount of vigor - you have to think about it when to use it. Stuff like perma-vigor thief is indeed just stupid.

Also hate the sword 2 treatment, absolutely. Lots of nerfs were general mesmer, even chrono or core nerfs, while the problem was condi mirage. The combination, and only this combination. But we all know by now that they seem to balance in weird directions ("we dont like evade spam, so we increase CDs on ele. Hey, lets give daggerstorm 4s evade lol"). :wink:

[storm.3120]

@Megametzler.5729 said:You know what is absolutely disgusting? 2-3 daggerstorms in your face in a short amount of time. Thats what I love ,praise rngsus!

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Megametzler.5729 said:Mirage has an okay amount of vigor - you have to think about it when to use it. Stuff like perma-vigor thief is indeed just stupid.

So, how do you consider the vigor amount of your main profession, taking into account mirage relies on dodges to survive and to do damage, and ele doesn't?

[Quadox.7834]

Proposal: add glamour trait (currently there is none) to domination line that gives back old portal duration.

Portal is most 'annoying' when mesmer is also one of the best sidenoders/duelists. This forces mesmer to choose between being a tankier sidenoder like chaos mirage or bunker chrono, and being a roamer. Thoughts?

[Mega.5791]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Mirage has an okay amount of vigor - you have to think about it when to use it. Stuff like perma-vigor thief is indeed just stupid.

So, how do you consider the vigor amount of your main profession, taking into account mirage relies on dodges to survive and to do damage, and ele doesn't?

Well, S/D weaver basically doesn't have vigor...? Except some random 3s procs when being hit in water with a 10s ICD? Tempest is different of course, giving AoE vigor on auras.

Also, how does mirage rely more on dodges to survive than ele?

[mortrialus.3062]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Mirage has an okay amount of vigor - you have to think about it when to use it. Stuff like perma-vigor thief is indeed just stupid.

So, how do you consider the vigor amount of your main profession, taking into account mirage relies on dodges to survive and to do damage, and ele doesn't?

Well, S/D weaver basically doesn't have vigor...? Except some random 3s procs when being hit in water with a 10s ICD? Tempest is different of course, giving AoE vigor on auras.

Also, how does mirage rely more on dodges to survive than ele?

PvP Elementalist throughout the history of GW2 have always been defined by their capability to completely resustain damage through self healing in ways PvP mesmers just don't. Even the current Chronobunk that won the EUMAT, which is a top tier survivable build with blocks and invulnerabilities and protection just can't heal from near death to full as quickly and as many times mid fight as any meta elementalist build have been able to. That's their point, that active mitigation means more to mesmers because they have far less self healing capacity.

That's typically the class asymmetry between the light armors. Mesmers avoid a lot, Elementalists heal a lot, Necromancers are bullet sponges through pure health pool. I don't think it's weird to describe that as a fundamental philosophy Arenanet has for the professions.

[Don Vega Van Kain.9842]

I agree but as an Elite, to powerfull to have it just as an utlility skill.

And yes, nerf chaos traitline AND stuff ambush. it's all :)

[Safandula.8723]

IMO, mesmers are hella unbalanced, and need nerfs (chaos trait line ekhm(that's why tank chrono is OP, why chaos mirage is busted, why chaos chrono support in pve was broken for so long. It's simply 1 trait).But nerf to portals were the worst thing, that could be done. They were just making pvp more interesting, u had to think about portals while rotating, now Noone takes it.Revert portal nerf and revamp all chaos traitline

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Mirage has an okay amount of vigor - you have to think about it when to use it. Stuff like perma-vigor thief is indeed just stupid.

So, how do you consider the vigor amount of your main profession, taking into account mirage relies on dodges to survive and to do damage, and ele doesn't?

Well, S/D weaver basically doesn't have vigor...? Except some random 3s procs when being hit in water with a 10s ICD? Tempest is different of course, giving AoE vigor on auras.

Also, how does mirage rely more on dodges to survive than ele?

What Mort said.To add to that s/d weaver has a lot more evades on weapon skills than mirage. And you've the arcane vigor trait if you choose it.On tempest you've the vigor trait which you referred too.

So, considering this do you think ele vigor is okay too, needs a buffs, needs a nerf?

[Mega.5791]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Mirage has an okay amount of vigor - you have to think about it when to use it. Stuff like perma-vigor thief is indeed just stupid.

So, how do you consider the vigor amount of your main profession, taking into account mirage relies on dodges to survive and to do damage, and ele doesn't?

Well, S/D weaver basically doesn't have vigor...? Except some random 3s procs when being hit in water with a 10s ICD? Tempest is different of course, giving AoE vigor on auras.

Also, how does mirage rely more on dodges to survive than ele?

PvP Elementalist throughout the history of GW2 have always been defined by their capability to completely resustain damage through self healing in ways PvP mesmers just don't. Even the current Chronobunk that won the EUMAT, which is a top tier survivable build with blocks and invulnerabilities and protection just can't heal from near death to full as quickly and as many times mid fight as any meta elementalist build have been able to. That's their point, that active mitigation means more to mesmers because they have far less self healing capacity.

That's typically the class asymmetry between the light armors. Mesmers avoid a lot, Elementalists heal a lot, Necromancers are bullet sponges through pure health pool. I don't think it's weird to describe that as a fundamental philosophy Arenanet has for the professions.

+

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Mirage has an okay amount of vigor - you have to think about it when to use it. Stuff like perma-vigor thief is indeed just stupid.

So, how do you consider the vigor amount of your main profession, taking into account mirage relies on dodges to survive and to do damage, and ele doesn't?

Well, S/D weaver basically doesn't have vigor...? Except some random 3s procs when being hit in water with a 10s ICD? Tempest is different of course, giving AoE vigor on auras.

Also, how does mirage rely more on dodges to survive than ele?

What Mort said.To add to that s/d weaver has a lot more evades on weapon skills than mirage. And you've the arcane vigor trait if you choose it.On tempest you've the vigor trait which you referred too.

So, considering this do you think ele vigor is okay too, needs a buffs, needs a nerf?

How did we end up discussing vigor...? Anyway.

1) I do think ele needs (relative) buffs, but I wouldn't add vigor. I want more reliable damage.

2) I will not talk about tempest vigor, because... yaah, that's absolutely off-topic.

3) Mesmer has distortion, blocks, stealth, teleports. Just buying time for kiting, mesmer is quite powerful. S/D ele can't even attack from range...

4) Concerning importance of dodges: If you don't dodge key skills, you are dead - with mesmer as much as with ele. Only difference: Ele dodges can be baited while mirage's... well, can be avoided (due to still existing mirage cloak during stuns). I know baiting dodges and fake casting is much less important today, because what the heck, just cast the skill, it's going off CD quicker than endurance regeneration anyways lol, but it is a disadvantage.

So you could view it quite differently: Ele needs impactful dodges (or evade skills) to be able to make use of the healing at all. Healing power only helps over time. Mesmer - especially mirage - has evade skills, more vigor and distortion for avoiding bursts.

My conclusion for mirage:I would have been happy if condi mirage could have kept more vigor outside of chaos. Instead deciding between offensive dodges via ambushes for clones or defensive ones like dodging during CCs. But I guess reducing vigor was the easy way out.

My conclusion for weaver:Please don't buff it by adding vigor.

My conclusion for portal:@Quadox.7834 might be onto something, but again I fear it would make another build hard to balance (power +1?). I would welcome a test on this, having a look on the idea for a season. That would require actual balancing effort though and willingness to revert things in time - or test servers.

[Interpretor.3091]

I think portal plays are exciting and are what made tournaments more fun back befoe the nerfs. I loved seeing good teams utilize Mesmer portals to their full potential.

However, I think a middle ground could be better. The length of the portal being around after it’s use, (allowing teams to portal and overwhelm team fights and then port back), was a little too strong. I would change the skill to still allow it to lay down an exit portal like it is now, but instead of a portal that anyone can use, let it be a one time use ability that targets a friendly player to that pre-determined position. Call it like, ‘Teleportation’ or whatever.

The old Portal gave teams a pretty huge advantage on every single map, especially with maps with mechanics like Foefire. Teams shouldnt be bringing Mesmers just for a single utility, which was the previous problem with Portal.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Megametzler.5729 said:How did we end up discussing vigor...? Anyway.

1) I do think ele needs (relative) buffs, but I wouldn't add vigor. I want more reliable damage.

2) I will not talk about tempest vigor, because... yaah, that's absolutely off-topic.

3) Mesmer has distortion, blocks, stealth, teleports. Just buying time for kiting, mesmer is quite powerful. S/D ele can't even attack from range...

4) Concerning importance of dodges: If you don't dodge key skills, you are dead - with mesmer as much as with ele. Only difference: Ele dodges can be baited while mirage's... well, can be avoided (due to still existing mirage cloak during stuns). I know baiting dodges and fake casting is much less important today, because what the heck, just cast the skill, it's going off CD quicker than endurance regeneration anyways lol, but it is a disadvantage.

So you could view it quite differently: Ele needs impactful dodges (or evade skills) to be able to make use of the healing at all. Healing power only helps over time. Mesmer - especially mirage - has evade skills, more vigor and distortion for avoiding bursts.

My conclusion for mirage:I would have been happy if condi mirage could have kept more vigor outside of chaos. Instead deciding between offensive dodges via ambushes for clones or defensive ones like dodging during CCs. But I guess reducing vigor was the easy way out.

My conclusion for weaver:Please don't buff it by adding vigor.

Ele doesn't need neither buffs nor nerfs, needs a redesign, the idea on paper is good but in game not so much, having access to 4 attunements, the fact that it needs to spec multiple stats and rely on the same 2 traitlines end up crippling the profession. Add reliable damage without taking sustain off and ele would be broken.Ele has plenty of damage multipliers if you spec for it, but if you do you die in seconds.

Distortion, yes. Blocks, not so much, scepter is only used because both other mainhands got heavily nerfed, chaos storm aegis is rng. Stealth is used both offensively and defensively too, same with teleports.

Concerning dodges, not really, if you get hit on ele you can heal to 100% in no time plus you've barrier and plenty of regen/hps while mesmer needs to avoid getting hit since it has no means to get over the damage.Mirage has more vigor - well if you take renewing stamina you have just as much. Evade skills, mesmer has 1 on sw, 1 on axe. S/d weaver has one on air, one on earth, one on water, 2 on utility.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

ya know, I would agree to portal if we could get our old necro elite plague back.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:ya know, I would agree to portal if we could get our old necro elite plague back.

You would get elite plague if ectoplasma is removed from game.

[Swagg.9236]

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

PortalForGlamourElite

Why not just do the proper thing and re-balance (nerf) elites into "utility skill" tier and then just remove the elite slot entirely, replacing it with a 4th utility slot?

[flog.3485]

I would say this about portal:-It was ok in the past to have a long duration ( 60 seconds) between each portal drop because before you could actually fail your portal plays due to range considerations. So obviously now that you can no longer fail, 60 seconds is too much. I would suggest to bring the cooldown back to 45 seconds.-As for the portal plays by themselves....what if the enemy team could use the portal ? The devs could allow a mesmer to close down the exit portal with a 1 second and a half channel.

[Mega.5791]

Okay, I do not know why, but you really want to discuss this. Not sure whether you are trying to point out that ele is fine balancing-wise...? Or just comparing S/D weaver with condi mirage? I do not yet know what your point is, if you could specify, I could answer more specifically. :wink:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:(...)Ele doesn't need neither buffs nor nerfs, needs a redesign, the idea on paper is good but in game not so much, having access to 4 attunements, the fact that it needs to spec multiple stats and rely on the same 2 traitlines end up crippling the profession. Add reliable damage without taking sustain off and ele would be broken.Ele has plenty of damage multipliers if you spec for it, but if you do you die in seconds.(...)

I do not think it needs a redesign. A lot of ele players disagree and wish for the weirdest stuff - giving weapon swap, choose only 2 attunements and stuff - but we all know this is not going to happen. And, to be honest, that would just dumb down ele as a whole.

You are kind of right with "add reliable damage to existing sustain", but you are also not. S/D weaver works, because it focusses on sustain while lacking damage. FA ele works because it has damage but no sustain. Tempest works because is has few damage, but lots of support. All those roles are okay when just looking at ele specs and the theoretical aim - of deciding between roles and speccing for them.

The problem is: Holosmith, warrior, soulbeast and (not so much anymore indeed) condi mirage can do all that - just with significantly more damage. Huge AoEs, short-CD stuns, bursts... this is the problem. So you either change all those to scale a lot more with the chosen amulet (healing power especially) or you buff ele to their level. This is why I keep saying "relative buffs".

For S/D ele I also do not think much is needed to make it a little more competitive while probably not meta: Just increase some ranges in dual skills and let it cast some skills backwards again, so it can at least kite a little bit. FA weaver is more difficult, tempest just needs some personal stab for overloads to be not completely pointless.

(...)Distortion, yes. Blocks, not so much, scepter is only used because both other mainhands got heavily nerfed, chaos storm aegis is rng. Stealth is used both offensively and defensively too, same with teleports.(...)

The fact that skills can be used also for offense is not really a disadvantage, is it? When an ele switches into water and uses sword 2, you can sit back, wait it out and have a view around, because he basically cannot attack in that attunement (depending on the second, of course). For any class, when they dodge, you know you can prepare your burst for afterwards.

(...)Concerning dodges, not really, if you get hit on ele you can heal to 100% in no time plus you've barrier and plenty of regen/hps while mesmer needs to avoid getting hit since it has no means to get over the damage.(...)

How do you heal up to 100%? With water combo, which only works every 12 seconds? (Yes, I know the CD is lower, but unless you camp the attunement a little, you can only swap every 4 seconds.)

You can heal up if you evade the follow up damage. By running around, by dodging, by whatever means. Not by standing there with your huge pile of health and tankiness, a warrior can kill an ele in 2 seconds if he has not stunbreak or protection up.

Also which barrier do you mean? Bolstered Elements which activates once every 70s (!)? Tallking about reliability here, heh? Elemental refreshment is another source which scales with the aforementioned dual skill range increase - because right now, several of those are damn hard to land in melee (Natural Frenzy...). It also gives 600ish barrier which is about a quarter of a warrior AA hit, maximum of every 4s (again, because of attunement swap).

You are right about the "mirage has to evade more skills, because of lesse regen". But it has those means. And it used to have damage like the other overtuned specs mentioned above. Not so much anymore indeed.

(...)Mirage has more vigor - well if you take renewing stamina you have just as much. Evade skills, mesmer has 1 on sw, 1 on axe. S/d weaver has one on air, one on earth, one on water, 2 on utility.

The situation was incredibly different before the patch with 1s Mirage cloak and short CD Illusionary Ambush. As I said before, I totally agree the nerfs were harsh.

Also counting ToF as 2 skills is weird. It is the only stunbreak S/D weaver has and has a recharge time of 50s (!). You always always need one of those or Lightning Flash for +1 scenarios. Otherwise you are dead against a rev. Quite instantly assuming equal skill level.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Megametzler.5729 said:Okay, I do not know why, but you really want to discuss this. Not sure whether you are trying to point out that ele is fine balancing-wise...? Or just comparing S/D weaver with condi mirage? I do not yet know what your point is, if you could specify, I could answer more specifically. :wink:

If I thought ele is fine I wouldn't say it needs a redesign.What I mean is that you thought vigor is okay on mirage and I made a parallel with ele vigor.

@Megametzler.5729 said:I do not think it needs a redesign. A lot of ele players disagree and wish for the weirdest stuff - giving weapon swap, choose only 2 attunements and stuff - but we all know this is not going to happen. And, to be honest, that would just dumb down ele as a whole.

I don't mean a weapon swap or 2 attunements, I mean start everything from scratch but indeed it will not happen.

@Megametzler.5729 said:You are kind of right with "add reliable damage to existing sustain", but you are also not. S/D weaver works, because it focusses on sustain while lacking damage. FA ele works because it has damage but no sustain. Tempest works because is has few damage, but lots of support. All those roles are okay when just looking at ele specs and the theoretical aim - of deciding between roles and speccing for them.The problem is: Holosmith, warrior, soulbeast and (not so much anymore indeed) condi mirage can do all that - just with significantly more damage. Huge AoEs, short-CD stuns, bursts... this is the problem. So you either change all those to scale a lot more with the chosen amulet (healing power especially) or you buff ele to their level. This is why I keep saying "relative buffs".

Holo and SB are broken. War in pvp is fine, in wvw it's a whole different discussion. Condi mirage damage isn't that good anymore, specially if you take chaos.

@Megametzler.5729 said:The fact that skills can be used also for offense is not really a disadvantage, is it? When an ele switches into water and uses sword 2, you can sit back, wait it out and have a view around, because he basically cannot attack in that attunement (depending on the second, of course). For any class, when they dodge, you know you can prepare your burst for afterwards.

Not really a disadvantage yes. But often you end up in trouble because you waste them offensively, so you can't view them as a defense only skill.

@Megametzler.5729 said:How do you heal up to 100%? With water combo, which only works every 12 seconds? (Yes, I know the CD is lower, but unless you camp the attunement a little, you can only swap every 4 seconds.)

Yes. Plenty of ways to do it, depending on your primary and secondary attunement at the time.

@Megametzler.5729 said:You can heal up if you evade the follow up damage. By running around, by dodging, by whatever means. Not by standing there with your huge pile of health and tankiness, a warrior can kill an ele in 2 seconds if he has not stunbreak or protection up.

You can stand there quite a bit more than a mirage.

Also which barrier do you mean? Bolstered Elements which activates once every 70s (!)? Tallking about reliability here, heh? Elemental refreshment is another source which scales with the aforementioned dual skill range increase - because right now, several of those are kitten hard to land in melee (Natural Frenzy...). It also gives 600ish barrier which is about a quarter of a warrior AA hit, maximum of every 4s (again, because of attunement swap).

Bolstered/lesser stone/dual skills (some of these aren't hard to get)

@Megametzler.5729 said:Also counting ToF as 2 skills is weird. It is the only stunbreak S/D weaver has and has a recharge time of 50s (!). You always always need one of those or Lightning Flash for +1 scenarios. Otherwise you are dead against a rev. Quite instantly assuming equal skill level.

I said 2 evades, not 2 skills.

[Mega.5791]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:(...)

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Also counting ToF as 2 skills is weird. It is the only stunbreak S/D weaver has and has a recharge time of 50s (!). You always

always

need one of those or Lightning Flash for +1 scenarios. Otherwise you are dead against a rev. Quite instantly assuming equal skill level.

I said 2 evades, not 2 skills.

Actually you said "evade skills", since we're nitpicking. :wink:

Warrior also is not quite fine in my opinion - I still think they should change lots of scaling numbers. Lower sustain for demo amulet, higher healing with mender. But that's also nitpicky, since we agree on the basis. Other specs are more overtuned, you're right.

I do think condi mirage should have access to vigor outside of chaos, yes. I do think vigor on ele is fine. I do not agree with ele not needing meaningful evade frames, not at all, it needs those evades for its healing to work in the first place.