Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Obtena.7952]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Here is my proposal for replacement of the OP's idea

The current version.

I can't see any situation where fast hands as baseline provides more openness to build variation as the OP claims. I mean, it doesn't even have that significant of an impact on builds to begin with ... it is a minor trait after all. Minor traits provide a 'feel of a theme'; they are hardly anything you can actually create a build around ... that's why you get them by default.

You're probably right, it wouldn't increase build variation that much as Discipline is strong enough without it. I'm all for changes to make Discipline a less prevalent trait line for warrior builds, I think this is just a good first step. That 'feel for theme' that fast hands provides is used so often with warrior it doenst feel right without it.

How can the OP claim not having it adversely affects the 'flow' ... I mean, at 5 seconds you almost get to face roll it. What build is so significantly impacted by a 5 second weapon swap that it affects the flow? What kind of flow do you get swapping and auto attacking? You can't even recharge your cooldowns on most weapon skills with that. The idea doesn't make much sense to me.

It does affect the flow of the profession though. Put a few hundred hours in on a build that always uses fast hands (which is most builds) then go play a build without it. Having an increased CD on something you use that often doesnt feel good when playing the profession.

These aren't reasons to make FH baseline. Of course if you play with FH for hundreds of hours then play a build that doesn't have it, it feels different. That goes without saying. I just don't see any reason to make it baseline for this reason. Simply put, you got used to something and it feels deficient when you don't have it. The fact is that non-Discipline builds are not deficient because they don't have FH.

It doesnt just feel different it feels worse, which is an important distinction. Non-Discipline builds ARE deficient though or else a vast majority of builds wouldn't need it. The only unique profession mechanic warrior has is a single burst skill per weapon where as most professions have multiple special skills or whole other sets of skills. As a

weapons master

profession it wouldn't be far fetched for part of their built in class mechanics to include weapon swapping. You havent really presented a reason not to do it other than "there is no reason to do it" but there is. Yes, it's a buff, but not a significant one. It wouldn't make warrior over perform, it would just make them more fluid.

Of course it feels worse. Again, that goes without saying that 9 second weapon swap when you are trained by 100's of hours of 5 second swap is worse. 'Worse' and 'not fluid' aren't reasons to make it baseline.

Of course I don't need to present a reason to not do it ... I don't need to for it to stay the way it is. If you really want one, here is one: because it's no work for Anet to leave it the way it is. here is another: because it's fine the way it is.

I mean, you have obviously convinced yourself this needs to happen; it's your job to make a compelling reason for the rest of us to believe you, including Anet, if you want it changed. So far, I don't think gorging yourself on 5 second weapon swap buffet for hundreds of hours then thinking it feels bad when you go on the 9 second swap diet really does that.

[cryorion.9532]

@"Sobx.1758" said:And if you don't see that giving a fast hands trait as an inherent class passive is a straight up buff to the whole class then I'm not sure what to tell you.

There you go. You said that FH would be straight up buff to whole class, which is true. And it is actually what we want. I was just pointing out that it is pretty obvious, what else do you think making FH baseline is going to do (thus I wrote "nerfing or fixing warrior?")?

It is very interesting to see, how some people are suddenly vocal about warriors wanting Fast Hands baseline.I am still waiting for exact examples of builds, traitline/trait combinations that you think would be too strong/broken with FH baseline. You should be able to provide some (if there are any) by yourself if you are skilled enough and know what you are talking about.I already wrote why FH should be baseline (passive), but as I want you to understand it correctly here we go again: the main reason why make Fast Hands baseline is to improve non-Discipline builds and make them more practical and responsive to situations.I have great question for you: Why is it that Discipline builds are played WAY MORE than non-Discipline builds (especially PvP/WvW)? Is it because Fast Hands are too strong? Or is it because warrior functions much better with 5 seconds weapon swap cooldown? To add, other Discipline traits just add even more "QoL" when it comes to managing and spending adrenaline, clearing conditions, etc.

@"Obtena.7952""The argument to make something baseline isn't that it would be better .. OFC it will be better. IF we want to maintain a meaningful set of choice then we can't just make everything that would make things better baseline. I also don't think that calling all non-Discipline warriors underperforming is a compelling reason to make FH baseline either. I find it hard to believe that having a 5 vs. 7 second weapon swap is THE thing that's holding back non-Discipline warriors. If anything, that's sort of an indication that FH is too strong and needs a nerf IMO."

Maintain meaningful set of choice by restraining vast majority of builds to have Discipline mostly because of Fast Hands? We are not going to make "everything" baseline. Just Fast Hands minor trait, to improve non-Discipline builds. The main reason why non-Discipline builds don't work well compared to Discipline builds is because warrior has to swap weapons fast enough to maintain rotation smoothness and momentum. A 5 seconds vs 10 seconds weapon swap IS the main reason why people use (or prefer) Discipline builds. Because Weapons, Bursts and Adrenaline are the active gameplay of warrior class, which is heavily affected by weapon swap CD.

If you played warrior well enough, you would realize how huge difference is when playing with 5 and 10 second weapon swap. There are micro-rotations, skill combinations which are refined around 5 second weapon cooldown. Playing with 10 second weapon swap CD breaks it completely.

It is very sad to see "If anything, that's sort of an indication that FH is too strong and needs a nerf IMO". You can't even imagine how drastic changing or even removing FH would be. To be honest, 5 second weapon swap CD is the only thing that makes warrior special. And majority of skill rotations are tailored around it.You should play and feel both Discipline and non-Discipline builds in WvW/PvP to see how drastic the difference is. And I am not even exaggerating.

Again, give me exact example of situations, builds, traitline/trait combinations, anything, that you think would be too strong/broken with FH baseline and let's discuss around that.

[Obtena.7952]

@cryorion.9532 said:If you played warrior well enough, you would realize how huge difference is when playing with 5 and 10 second weapon swap. There are micro-rotations, skill combinations which are refined around 5 second weapon cooldown. Playing with 10 second weapon swap CD breaks it completely.

Buffing something has nothing to do with knowing how big a difference it is in play. That's a ridiculous notion. I don't understand how you can't see that something being better isn't a reason to buff it; that reason can be used for ANY buff you want to propose so it's a meaningless reason. The idea that a 9 second weapon swap breaks warrior as a class is just nonsense and sensational.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

Isn't Weapon swap part of Warrior's unique mechanic, like Ranger has pets, Thief has innitiative instead of cooldown or even Revenant that has energy management?

Weapon swap should be special too then, and a cooldown reduction seems like a logical solution. I'm all for promoting build diversity.

Curently, Warrior don't always take Discipline because, It's because the other traits and spec are underperforming. Honestly, I play Ranger sometimes and I'm amazed at how hard it is to chose a build because the majority of their traits and spec are very good, compared to Warrior where I already know that 75% of my traits are useless and if I run that, I might die a lot more even in open-world pve.

[Obtena.7952]

Burst is the unique Warrior mechanic, not weapon swapping.

[cryorion.9532]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"cryorion.9532" said:If you played warrior well enough, you would realize how huge difference is when playing with 5 and 10 second weapon swap. There are micro-rotations, skill combinations which are refined around 5 second weapon cooldown. Playing with 10 second weapon swap CD breaks it completely.

Buffing something has nothing to do with knowing how big a difference it is in play. That's a ridiculous notion. I don't understand how you can't see that something being better isn't a reason to buff it; that reason can be used for ANY buff you want to propose so it's a meaningless reason. The idea that a 9 second weapon swap breaks warrior as a class is just nonsense and sensational.

Then why is it that vast majority of builds used in PvP/WvW include Discipline traitline?"The idea that a 9 second weapon swap breaks warrior as a class is just nonsense and sensational." There is no idea of breaking warrior class, just skill rotations as I wrote. You generalized it in a very wrong way. A 5 second weapon swap cooldown IS part of warrior's mechanic and it plays big role in build crafting. Ask any warrior player who ever tried to craf their own proper and usable build. I am sure that majority of them started with Discipline traitline as backbone.

You are still arguing not about how would FH baseline make warrior overpowered or broken, or pushed balance to red zone, which is what we should do,but about the idea of being wrong to want useless/underperforming builds to be more useful.

Let's sum this up to avoid confusion: I want FH baseline so it improves non-Discipline builds while ALL Discipline builds will remain unaffected (except there would be new minor trait). Your argument is that non-Discipline builds don't need improvements (even though they are obviously lacking something as they are played and prefered way less) because as warrior has certain builds that work, it isn't a reason to buff ones that don't.

If it was by me, I would make FH baseline and Discipline traitline would be traitline to enhance this weapon swapping even further. Shorter weapon swap cooldown IS part of warrior mechanic. You can see it clearly on Spellbreaker elite specialization where burst spam is encouraged.

[Obtena.7952]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:If you played warrior well enough, you would realize how huge difference is when playing with 5 and 10 second weapon swap. There are micro-rotations, skill combinations which are refined around 5 second weapon cooldown. Playing with 10 second weapon swap CD breaks it completely.

Buffing something has nothing to do with knowing how big a difference it is in play. That's a ridiculous notion. I don't understand how you can't see that something being better isn't a reason to buff it; that reason can be used for ANY buff you want to propose so it's a meaningless reason. The idea that a 9 second weapon swap breaks warrior as a class is just nonsense and sensational.

Then why is it that vast majority of builds used in PvP/WvW include Discipline traitline?

They use it because it's good .. but that's not relevant to why something should be buffed. I mean, I'm just going to keep saying it: Being better is not a reason to buff something. That's literally true for EVERY buff anyone could propose.

I have not argued not about how would FH baseline make warrior overpowered or broken at all. I'm saying there hasn't been a good reason presented for why FH should be baseline. "Being better" or "I miss it when I don't gorge out on Discipline for hundreds of hours" are not valid reasons.

You're completely missing the point of why we choose traitlines and traits in them. If we don't have meaningful choices to make, they become trivial. leading to poor class performance in competitive game modes because of predictability ... that's even MORE important on Warrior because of the limited number of available 'actions' to them.

Making FH baseline trivializes our choices. If FH is so good that it literally breaks non-Discipline builds, then it needs to be MADE non-trivial with a massive nerf so that Discipline is less of a default traitline.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Burst is the unique Warrior mechanic, not weapon swapping.

Which is why I said "part of...".

[Vancho.8750]

Most weapons are already balanced around Fast hands, and the burst mechanic is tied to weapon swap. Warrior utilities are quite lackluster and the focus is turned to weapons, as a whole the profession lacks situational buttons and that is mended by use of weapons. The flow on other professions is not broken by weapons swap, you can use your special mechanic when you want to its not tied to a weapon, even a lot of them get to have multiple bundles of weapon abilities on demand. Warrior has so many special mechanics that it can't use, its stuck to 2 weapon sets.The funny thing is the only weapons that doesn't feel bad camp in pve is Axe/Axe which is in the Discipline traitline the Iron E, but then again you would want to return back to it as fast as you can after you have finished lets say breaking that bar.

[Obtena.7952]

@Edge.8724 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Burst is the unique Warrior mechanic, not weapon swapping.

Which is why I said "part of...".

Well ... it's not 'part of' either ... lots of classes have weapon swap so it certainly can't be considered 'part of' the unique Warrior mechanic.

[Vancho.8750]

Its the same problem as Revenant why do weapon abilities cost energy rebalance them and make the utilities cost more why does it have to be double thief mechanic instead of reverse thief or in case of Soulbeast the merge pet mechanic is so clunky people just camp one pet. Almost all professions need some QoL changes, warrior needs some QoL on the build diversity department.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Edge.8724 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Burst is the unique Warrior mechanic, not weapon swapping.

Which is why I said "part of...".

Well ... it's not 'part of' either ... lots of classes have weapon swap so it certainly can't be considered 'part of' the unique Warrior mechanic.

I honestly though about that because of the synergy with the burst skill. Since Burst skills usually have a lower cooldown than weapon swap. Mind you, I can be wrong here, just assuming. However, I'm still for some changes for warrior to make them more competetive.

[melandru.3876]

@Edge.8724 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Edge.8724 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Burst is the unique Warrior mechanic, not weapon swapping.

Which is why I said "part of...".

Well ... it's not 'part of' either ... lots of classes have weapon swap so it certainly can't be considered 'part of' the unique Warrior mechanic.

I honestly though about that because of the synergy with the burst skill. Since Burst skills usually have a lower cooldown than weapon swap. Mind you, I can be wrong here, just assuming. However, I'm still for some changes for warrior to make them more competetive.

depends if traited or not

traited weapon swap 5 secsnon traited weapon swap 9 secs

traited burst 6.3/4non traited burst 8 secs

[cryorion.9532]

@"Obtena.7952" said:They use it because it's good .. but that's not relevant to why something should be buffed. I mean, I'm just going to keep saying it: Being better is not a reason to buff something. That's literally true for EVERY buff anyone could propose.

I have not argued not about how would FH baseline make warrior overpowered or broken at all. I'm saying there hasn't been a good reason presented for why FH should be baseline. "Being better" or "I miss it when I don't gorge out on Discipline for hundreds of hours" are not valid reasons.

You're completely missing the point of why we choose traitlines and traits in them. If we don't have meaningful choices to make, they become trivial. leading to poor class performance in competitive game modes because of predictability ... that's even MORE important on Warrior because of the limited number of available 'actions' to them.

Making FH baseline trivializes our choices. If FH is so good that it literally breaks non-Discipline builds, then it needs to be MADE non-trivial with a massive nerf so that Discipline is less of a default traitline.

When you buff something, you want it to be better, obviously.So why was scrapper buffed then? Why was necromancer buffed then? Why everything in game was buffed, if, according to you, buffing things to be better is not valid reason?

We told you XY times, that making Fast Hands baseline, is to give warrior more build variety.And so we want other warrior builds to be better, by making Fast Hands baseline.

"Making FH baseline trivializes our choices. If FH is so good that it literally breaks non-Discipline builds, then it needs to be MADE non-trivial with a massive nerf so that Discipline is less of a default traitline."What are now warrior's choices when it comes to meta builds (in all game modes overall)? Most of those builds have Discipline traitline. Where are the other choices? It is the other way around. Fast Hands would actually give incentive to explore and use non-Discipline builds way more, thus more build variety and choices. The question is, how much would it push balance and powercreep. I asked few people for exact and precise examples, not a single one has answered yet.

It seems that I gave Fast Hands too big value in this discussion, so now people are going to exploit this to call Fast Hands overpowered.What about making Fast Hands baseline because it is so used in most builds and very appreciated trait, instead?Your angle of thinking about this issue is that warrior can't get good stuff because wanting something being better is wrong and not valid.What if you thought about it as huge overall improvement to whole warrior class? That people who main warrior would appreciate better build variety and more options.Maybe this isn't that much an issue of balance rather than some people don't want warrior class to be improved overall.Notice that we are not discussing about balance issues with FH, but rather mentality behind wanting those buffs.

[Obtena.7952]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:They use it because it's good .. but that's not relevant to why something should be buffed. I mean, I'm just going to keep saying it: Being better is not a reason to buff something. That's literally true for EVERY buff anyone could propose.

I have not argued not about how would FH baseline make warrior overpowered or broken at all. I'm saying there hasn't been a good reason presented for why FH should be baseline. "

Being better

" or "

I miss it when I don't gorge out on Discipline for hundreds of hours

" are not valid reasons.

You're completely missing the point of why we choose traitlines and traits in them. If we don't have meaningful choices to make, they become trivial. leading to poor class performance in competitive game modes because of predictability ... that's even MORE important on Warrior because of the limited number of available 'actions' to them.

Making FH baseline trivializes our choices. If FH is so good that it literally breaks non-Discipline builds, then it needs to be MADE non-trivial with a massive nerf so that Discipline is less of a default traitline.

We told you XY times, that making Fast Hands baseline, is to give warrior more build variety.

Except that's not really true. Do you NOT swap weapons even if you don't use Discipline? Of course you do .... that's the whole basis of the OP's argument for making FH baseline ... so it's not about diversity in builds. Diversity doesn't change because you have a 5 vs. 9 second weapon swap ...

The big change is the rotation and I'm not even sure it's that significant because most weapon skill CD's are much longer than 5 seconds, or even the 9 seconds from regular swap rate. That's why I can't wrap my head around the justification for this baseline FH proposal as being more 'fluid'. Access to the Weapon skills isn't limited by swap rate for the most part ... it's the CD on the skills themselves.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:They use it because it's good .. but that's not relevant to why something should be buffed. I mean, I'm just going to keep saying it: Being better is not a reason to buff something. That's literally true for EVERY buff anyone could propose.

I have not argued not about how would FH baseline make warrior overpowered or broken at all. I'm saying there hasn't been a good reason presented for why FH should be baseline. "

Being better

" or "

I miss it when I don't gorge out on Discipline for hundreds of hours

" are not valid reasons.

You're completely missing the point of why we choose traitlines and traits in them. If we don't have meaningful choices to make, they become trivial. leading to poor class performance in competitive game modes because of predictability ... that's even MORE important on Warrior because of the limited number of available 'actions' to them.

Making FH baseline trivializes our choices. If FH is so good that it literally breaks non-Discipline builds, then it needs to be MADE non-trivial with a massive nerf so that Discipline is less of a default traitline.

We told you XY times, that making Fast Hands baseline, is to give warrior more build variety.

Except that's not really true. Do you NOT swap weapons even if you don't use Discipline? Of course you do .... that's the whole basis of the OP's argument for making FH baseline ... so it's not about diversity in builds. Diversity doesn't change because you have a 5 vs. 9 second weapon swap ...

The big change is the rotation and I'm not even sure it's that significant because most weapon skill CD's are much longer than 5 seconds, or even the 9 seconds from regular swap rate. That's why I can't wrap my head around the justification for this baseline FH proposal as being more 'fluid'. Access to the Weapon skills isn't limited by swap rate for the most part ... it's the CD on the skills themselves.

The variety does change because it will be easier to justify not taking Discipline. Also, a change in rotation is all that ever happens when a profession is buffed/nerfed so that is a change in diversity. There is also sigil procing on weapon swap and burst skills on separate bars so even if our weapon skills are on CD we still have reason to swap. I just dont get why you think this change isn't needed. Technically speaking no change is ever needed unless something is bugged. Everything in the game is working. The reason this change is needed in my opinion is to make the game more enjoyable for warriors and it wouldn't even be at the cost of other professions enjoyment because the buff isn't that huge of one. It's not going to break warrior, its a minor buff. A lot of warriors want this and that's reason enough for anet to do it, their job is to maintain the game and improve the player experience and this would improve warriors experience. Its not like it would take them 1000 man hours to do it. It's not adding a new skill, no new animations, its just all passive changes. I'll say again, no it's not technically needed but neither is any other profession buff/change. It would just be something nice for warriors if they could squeeze it in a balance patch.

[Obtena.7952]

As I've mentioned already ... if FH is so damn good that it's the reason people are taking Discipline and that leads to lower build diversity, then do NOT assume the only answer to that problem is to make FH baseline for all warriors. If anything, that's an indication that FH is too good and needs a nerf.

If you want to justify a change, you have to explain why it's needed. That's not a new concept here. I'm willing to bet that if you polled warrior players and asked them what kind of changes are NEEDED, FH baseline wouldn't even be on the radar. I don't think it's needed (as I've already explained) because there isn't anything broken with how FH works now. It's a minor trait in a line that promotes weapon swap. It's appropriate the way it is already implemented. Again, it's not necessary for me to justify it's current implementation ... it's necessary for you to explain why it needs to change.

There are literally dozens of things that would make warrior more enjoyable so why is baseline FH THE buff that warriors should hang their hat on to make that happen?

[Dadnir.5038]

@Edge.8724 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Burst is the unique Warrior mechanic, not weapon swapping.

Which is why I said "part of...".

You could then say the same for ranger which have quite a few trait in skirmishing that depend on weapon swap. Weaponswap is a mechanism common to most professions in the game, not just "a warrior thing".

Anyway, the day ANet make Fast hand baseline is the day they will nerf fast hand. I'm pretty sure warriors are luckier to have a trait that reduce their weaponswap by 5 second than a more likely 7-8 second weaponswap baseline. This is typically the type of trait that would lose a good chunk of power if made baseline by ANet. We all have experience with how things goes with balance patch, most things are often better left untouched and fast hand is such a thing.

The most hilarious that could happen would be ANet replacing the trait by something else and releasing an e-spec which would have the 5 seconds weaponswap CD as it's special feature.

[Xaylin.1860]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I can't see any situation where fast hands as baseline provides more openness to build variation as the OP claims. I mean, it doesn't even have that significant of an impact on builds to begin with ... it is a minor trait after all. Minor traits provide a 'feel of a theme'; they are hardly anything you can actually create a build around ... that's why you get them by default.

You're probably right, it wouldn't increase build variation that much as Discipline is strong enough without it. I'm all for changes to make Discipline a less prevalent trait line for warrior builds, I think this is just a good first step. That 'feel for theme' that fast hands provides is used so often with warrior it doenst feel right without it.

Food for thought: Wouldn't Superior Runes of the Warrior be used more often in non-Discipline builds if your argument was true?

Even more food: If switching weapons was so substantial, shouldn't there just be more (new) traits which enabled Warriors to do so?

Two examples:

• Reduce weapon swap CD everytime you crit.
• Recharge weapon swap when successfully landing a Burst skill.

Asking for Fast-Hands to be baseline happens quite frequently. However, I've never seen anyone back it up with reasonable arguments. It usually boils down to it 'feeling right' or 'feeling needed'. Additionally, even if it was true that Warriors only worked well with this trait, people conveniently neglect the fact that there are solutions beside making it baseline. Why is that if the true intent was increasing build diversity rather than just receiving a buff? Asking for more or easier access to weapon swapping is reasonable. Asking for deeper gameplay for Burst skills is reasonable.

In the end, expecting FH to be baseline 'because it feels right' is just very entitled. Mesmers feel better with shorter Shatter CDs. So do Elementalists with shorter Attunemend CDs. So do Rangers with faster pet swapping. Necromancers with ... well... basically Soul Reaping. Thieves with more Initative or shorter Steal CD. Engineers with weapon swapping (...oh...wait). Guardians with better Virtues. And Revenants with more Energy.

Warriors probably already got the simplest class mechanic. Don't dumb it down even more by making Fast-Hand baseline. Ask for other options and ask for more depth for your class. Don't expect to smash weapon skills on cooldown without ever touching your AA. And don't even dare asking for Warrior Sprint becoming baseline as well because ... Warrior. :#

I don't mean to be snarky towards anyone. But this specific discussion hasn't evolved since the game was launched.

That being said: Berserker needs a rework. :s

[Ferus.3165]

@Edge.8724 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Edge.8724 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Burst is the unique Warrior mechanic, not weapon swapping.

Which is why I said "part of...".

Well ... it's not 'part of' either ... lots of classes have weapon swap so it certainly can't be considered 'part of' the unique Warrior mechanic.

I honestly though about that because of the synergy with the burst skill. Since Burst skills usually have a lower cooldown than weapon swap. Mind you, I can be wrong here, just assuming. However, I'm still for some changes for warrior to make them more competetive.

dude you are absolutely right, don't let someone, who does nothing but troll 24/7 in these forums, talk you out of it.Even warrior runes have reduced swap cd because that is special to warrior. No other class has access to this mechanic through traits or skills.

And fast hands is far more unique than some f skills that every class in this game has access to.

[melandru.3876]

imo fast hands baseline or not won't change much. discipline on it's whole is just to good not to take

t1-warrior sprint, both pve and pvp meta you can't juist ignore immo cleanses and/or +7% dmg modifiert2-double standards, pve meta warrior needs all the bosts it can get to compensate it's own lower dpst2-brawlers recovery, no warrior runs without thist3-axe mastery, pve meta and one of the largest dps increasest3-burst mastery, pvp meta

both in pve, or pvp i can't see myself without those traits at all.

discipline and strenght are, and should, allways be taken regardless of baseline fast hands

the issue is the other traitlines like arms are underperforming and not worth taking i'd so very much see arms become a duelist traitline, while strenght becomes the powerhouse traitline.

some suggestions:

t1 minor -furious burst: using a burst skill grants fury. fury increases ferocity by 150t1-opportunist: cast lesser throw bola upon disabling, or hitting a disabled target. (4 seconds immobilize, no more fury 16 secs cd if traited with peak performance)

t2 minor- deep strikes: deal increased damage on target for each unique condition it suffers (0.5 or 1% per condition)t2-unsuspecting foe: reduce bonus crit chance from 50% to 10-15%. add +25% increased damage to disabled targets.

t3 minor -bloodlust: merge the effect with furious,gain a stacking damage buff upon succesfully critting a target suffering from the bleed condition (1% condi and power dmg per stack, max stacks 10 duration 5 secs)t3- burst precision: upon succesfully landing a burst skill, gain 50 precision and 50 ferocity for 10 seconds (stackable to 5 stacks)

^ that would make me pick arms

[cryorion.9532]

@melandru.3876 said:imo fast hands baseline or not won't change much. discipline on it's whole is just to good not to take

It would change things. That is why we want it. It wouldn't cause huge balance outbreak as some people think (because as you posted, non-Discipline builds will still miss all other Discipline traits). It is just that one of the biggest reasons why non-Discipline builds are not very used/prefered/enjoyed (overall in all game modes) is because warrior just functions much better with 5 sec instead of 10 sec weapon CD.Arguments that some weapon skills have longer cooldown than 10 seconds are flawed because you don't spam all skills off cooldown. At least not as competent warrior (or in some PvE builds).

[cryorion.9532]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Edge.8724 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Burst is the unique Warrior mechanic, not weapon swapping.

Which is why I said "part of...".

You could then say the same for ranger which have quite a few trait in skirmishing that depend on weapon swap. Weaponswap is a mechanism common to most professions in the game, not just "a warrior thing".

Anyway, the day ANet make

Fast hand

baseline is the day they will nerf

fast hand

. I'm pretty sure warriors are luckier to have a trait that reduce their weaponswap by 5 second than a more likely 7-8 second weaponswap baseline. This is typically the type of trait that would lose a good chunk of power if made baseline by ANet. We all have experience with how things goes with balance patch, most things are often better left untouched and

fast hand

is such a thing.

The most hilarious that could happen would be ANet replacing the trait by something else and releasing an e-spec which would have the 5 seconds weaponswap CD as it's special feature.

If Anet ever nerfs Fast Hands, you will see the outrage. Imagine if Anet nerfed ranger's pet swapping cooldown, elementalist's attunment cd, revenant's legend swap cd, engineer's kit would have cooldown on picking kit and then droppping it, thief would get initiative regeneration nerfed, etc. Weapon swap CD nerf would affect warrior in very similar way.

Ranger has different class mechanics and utility on their weapons are more tailored around 10 second weapon cooldown. Also, ranger never had any weapon swap cooldown reduction related traits since beginning of the game. Another thing to point out is how hard is to kite warrior and ranger (of course it depends on exact builds and weapons used, but in general, it is easier to kite warrior than ranger). As full melee, warrior benefits from 5 seconds weapon swap much more.

"The most hilarious that could happen would be ANet replacing the trait by something else and releasing an e-spec which would have the 5 seconds weaponswap CD as it's special feature."That wouldn't be surprising at all, but it would be too noticable, gimping whole class to sell out new elite specs.

[BlackTruth.6813]

As scary as it might sound, it IS very possible that ANET will nerf fast hands if it ever becomes baseline.

Here is to hoping ANET uses their brain and do not. The only thing a 5 second baseline swap will allow is build variety. I dare ANYBODY to name me an "OP build that will come out when baseline fast hands is implemented. I'm pretty sure there is already a counterargument ready for people saying baseline fast hands is OP.

[Obtena.7952]

@cryorion.9532 said:Arguments that some weapon skills have longer cooldown than 10 seconds are flawed because you don't spam all skills off cooldown. At least not as competent warrior (or in some PvE builds).

Then the argument from the OP that FH should be baseline because of more 'fluid' play is also flawed, because any arguments based on 'fluid' play are related to CD's and rotations, not build variety.

Put it this way ... if swapping weapons isn't about affecting rotations and the 'feel' of faster play, then this is simply a thinly veiled attempt to get access to on swap procs.

I'm still not seeing the 'build diversity' argument either ... because I can say for a fact that no one is taking Discipline ONLY because of FH. Even if they nerfed FH into the ground OR made it baseline, people would STILL take Discipline. If you REALLY want to go into a build diversity argument, Anet is going to have to nerf more than just FH to make people think what else they should choose.