Discussion about the upcoming change to Physical Supremacy

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Remove the steal unblockable,add a 3 sec invulnerability on steal and done.now DD matches the powercreep of other classes and is now viable as a 1v1 :)

[Sniper.5961]

@babazhook.6805 said:Added to this , the change to steal wherein it becomes swipe impacts weaponsets already in a bad way that use the Daredevil line. P/P , P/d , dagger/dagger suffer much more as they have limited access to ports. D/D will have to find ways to get closer without being killed and p/p p/d will have to fight at 600 or less range in order to use steal which not condusive to being able to survive.

yes and the range of all of the ranges weapons a daredevil can wield is 900 too. I really hope they would make the range of the skill 900 and not 600 it would not make any sense and it would impact the fluidity of the gameplay of the class. I think the vast majority of the community would also not care or favor 900 over 600. Evrerybody i talked to no matter wich mainclass the person played has the oppinion that 600 range is overkill.

[Exitus.3297]

@Sniper.5961 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Added to this , the change to steal wherein it becomes swipe impacts weaponsets already in a bad way that use the Daredevil line. P/P , P/d , dagger/dagger suffer much more as they have limited access to ports. D/D will have to find ways to get closer without being killed and p/p p/d will have to fight at 600 or less range in order to use steal which not condusive to being able to survive.

yes and the range of all of the ranges weapons a daredevil can wield is 900 too. I really hope they would make the range of the skill 900 and not 600 it would not make any sense and it would impact the fluidity of the gameplay of the class. I think the vast majority of the community would also not care or favor 900 over 600. Evrerybody i talked to no matter wich mainclass the person played has the oppinion that 600 range is overkill.

Same here, everyone I talk to thinks 600 is overkill because of a multitude of reasons. That includes non-thief players.

We really need to get more people's attention on this and make it known to ANet they are making a huge mistake.

[omgdracula.6345]

600 is definitely a massive hit to D/P. S/D will be king now hands down.

[Bunny.9834]

Yeah we have multiple threads and comments about this topic. I hope @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 can see those.

[derd.6413]

why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

[borgs.6103]

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

[derd.6413]

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

perhaps however the 600 range seems a tradeoff for the unblockable steal and the extra dodge and not just the unblockable steal.

[borgs.6103]

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

perhaps however the 600 range seems a tradeoff for the unblockable steal and the extra dodge and not just the unblockable steal.

Daredevils arlready had that extra dodge though before the upcoming "Swipe" change.

Also, maybe you know this or not, but before Daredevils came, thieves used to already have 3 dodges from the Acrobatics traitline. Then they nerfed that and added it to daredevil as "something new" for the elite spec.

[derd.6413]

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

perhaps however the 600 range seems a tradeoff for the unblockable steal and the extra dodge and not just the unblockable steal.

Daredevils arlready had that extra dodge though before the upcoming "Swipe" change.

the swipe change came because of the extra dodge.like how pets get nerfed when equiping druid because of celestial avatar and why berserker mode is gonna replaces the F1 skills from now on.

Also, maybe you know this or not, but before Daredevils came, thieves used to already have 3 dodges from the Acrobatics traitline. Then they nerfed that and added it to daredevil as "something new" for the elite spec.

that's irrelevant to this discussion

[borgs.6103]

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

perhaps however the 600 range seems a tradeoff for the unblockable steal and the extra dodge and not just the unblockable steal.

Daredevils arlready had that extra dodge though before the upcoming "Swipe" change.

the swipe change came because of the extra dodge.like how pets get nerfed when equiping druid because of celestial avatar and why berserker mode is gonna replaces the F1 skills from now on.

Also, maybe you know this or not, but before Daredevils came, thieves used to already have 3 dodges from the Acrobatics traitline. Then they nerfed that and added it to daredevil as "something new" for the elite spec.

that's irrelevant to this discussion

Yeah, I get your point. Still the same argument though, just add the extra dodge now to the trade-off.

It's counter-productive IMO to their goal of making Daredevils more melee-oriented to nerf a gap-closer.

[derd.6413]

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

perhaps however the 600 range seems a tradeoff for the unblockable steal and the extra dodge and not just the unblockable steal.

Daredevils arlready had that extra dodge though before the upcoming "Swipe" change.

the swipe change came because of the extra dodge.like how pets get nerfed when equiping druid because of celestial avatar and why berserker mode is gonna replaces the F1 skills from now on.

Also, maybe you know this or not, but before Daredevils came, thieves used to already have 3 dodges from the Acrobatics traitline. Then they nerfed that and added it to daredevil as "something new" for the elite spec.

that's irrelevant to this discussion

Yeah, I get your point. Still the same argument though, just add the extra dodge now to the trade-off.

It's counter-productive IMO to their goal of making Daredevils more melee-oriented to nerf a gap-closer.

i don't really see it become an issue given that even without steal thief is among the more mobile classes (if not the most mobile class)

[Sniper.5961]

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

perhaps however the 600 range seems a tradeoff for the unblockable steal and the extra dodge and not just the unblockable steal.

Daredevils arlready had that extra dodge though before the upcoming "Swipe" change.

the swipe change came because of the extra dodge.like how pets get nerfed when equiping druid because of celestial avatar and why berserker mode is gonna replaces the F1 skills from now on.

Also, maybe you know this or not, but before Daredevils came, thieves used to already have 3 dodges from the Acrobatics traitline. Then they nerfed that and added it to daredevil as "something new" for the elite spec.

that's irrelevant to this discussion

Yeah, I get your point. Still the same argument though, just add the extra dodge now to the trade-off.

It's counter-productive IMO to their goal of making Daredevils more melee-oriented to nerf a gap-closer.

i don't really see it become an issue given that even without steal thief is among the more mobile classes (if not the most mobile class)

i think i already explained the issue with this enough here is a quick rundown:

• d/p daredevil getts nerfed even though it was more underperforming then overperforming and a situational build wich makes it not viable anymore thous d/p as a weaponset will not be usefull anymore.
• builddiversity is reduced because of it
• staff daredevil with swipe is a sub par duelist and a sub par roamer wich makes daredevil as a whole not viable in competitive pvp anymore.
• the daredevil traitline was already in line with the core traitlines we didnt forget the 3. dodge thats a grandmastertrait like impro exe or slight of hand all powerfull and none has a tradeoff. The other traitlines are so much in line that when you play the meta s/d build you dont take daredevil at all because even without any tradeoff right now 3 core traitlines are just straight up stonger then what the daredevil has to offer right now nerfing it would make it a sub par taitline and a nerf compared to core thief wich means noone would play daredevil anymore. The tradeoff is halving range of steal for unblockable steal not halving range of steal to compensate for the merits daredevil has to offer that is a non issue.
• in general the idea of making a thief a pointholder is not going to work without a massive overhall of the class becasue a soon as you buff daredevil to be a pointholder on par with other pointholder you have a problem because of shortbow and its mobility.
• when you nerf the range of steal you cant steal from a lot of spots you where able to before. You have to stay in a range where you get more damage where the enemy sees you quicker and steal as an engage skill will get a huge hit so huge that the entre gameplay of the class as a roamer will become not viable. S/D and rev are after the far better roamer.

[derd.6413]

@Sniper.5961 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

perhaps however the 600 range seems a tradeoff for the unblockable steal and the extra dodge and not just the unblockable steal.

Daredevils arlready had that extra dodge though before the upcoming "Swipe" change.

the swipe change came because of the extra dodge.like how pets get nerfed when equiping druid because of celestial avatar and why berserker mode is gonna replaces the F1 skills from now on.

Also, maybe you know this or not, but before Daredevils came, thieves used to already have 3 dodges from the Acrobatics traitline. Then they nerfed that and added it to daredevil as "something new" for the elite spec.

that's irrelevant to this discussion

Yeah, I get your point. Still the same argument though, just add the extra dodge now to the trade-off.

It's counter-productive IMO to their goal of making Daredevils more melee-oriented to nerf a gap-closer.

i don't really see it become an issue given that even without steal thief is among the more mobile classes (if not the most mobile class)

i think i already explained the issue with this enough here is a quick rundown:

• d/p daredevil getts nerfed even though it was more underperforming then overperforming and a situational build wich makes it not viable anymore thous d/p as a weaponset will not be usefull anymore.
• builddiversity is reduced because of it
• staff daredevil with swipe is a sub par duelist and a sub par roamer wich makes daredevil as a whole not viable in competitive pvp anymore.
• the daredevil traitline was already in line with the core traitlines we didnt forget the 3. dodge thats a grandmastertrait like impro exe or slight of hand all powerfull and none has a tradeoff. The other traitlines are so much in line that when you play the meta s/d build you dont take daredevil at all because even without any tradeoff right now 3 core traitlines are just straight up stonger then what the daredevil has to offer right now nerfing it would make it a sub par taitline and a nerf compared to core thief wich means noone would play daredevil anymore. The tradeoff is halving range of steal for unblockable steal not halving range of steal to compensate for the merits daredevil has to offer that is a non issue.
• in general the idea of making a thief a pointholder is not going to work without a massive overhall of the class becasue a soon as you buff daredevil to be a pointholder on par with other pointholder you have a problem because of shortbow and its mobility.
• when you nerf the range of steal you cant steal from a lot of spots you where able to before. You have to stay in a range where you get more damage where the enemy sees you quicker and steal as an engage skill will get a huge hit so huge that the entre gameplay of the class as a roamer will become not viable. S/D and rev are after the far better roamer.

the thing is that all those are balance issues while this change seems more of a design change

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@derd.6413 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

perhaps however the 600 range seems a tradeoff for the unblockable steal and the extra dodge and not just the unblockable steal.

Daredevils arlready had that extra dodge though before the upcoming "Swipe" change.

the swipe change came because of the extra dodge.like how pets get nerfed when equiping druid because of celestial avatar and why berserker mode is gonna replaces the F1 skills from now on.

Also, maybe you know this or not, but before Daredevils came, thieves used to already have 3 dodges from the Acrobatics traitline. Then they nerfed that and added it to daredevil as "something new" for the elite spec.

that's irrelevant to this discussion

Yeah, I get your point. Still the same argument though, just add the extra dodge now to the trade-off.

It's counter-productive IMO to their goal of making Daredevils more melee-oriented to nerf a gap-closer.

i don't really see it become an issue given that even without steal thief is among the more mobile classes (if not the most mobile class)

i think i already explained the issue with this enough here is a quick rundown:

• d/p daredevil getts nerfed even though it was more underperforming then overperforming and a situational build wich makes it not viable anymore thous d/p as a weaponset will not be usefull anymore.
• builddiversity is reduced because of it
• staff daredevil with swipe is a sub par duelist and a sub par roamer wich makes daredevil as a whole not viable in competitive pvp anymore.
• the daredevil traitline was already in line with the core traitlines we didnt forget the 3. dodge thats a grandmastertrait like impro exe or slight of hand all powerfull and none has a tradeoff. The other traitlines are so much in line that when you play the meta s/d build you dont take daredevil at all because even without any tradeoff right now 3 core traitlines are just straight up stonger then what the daredevil has to offer right now nerfing it would make it a sub par taitline and a nerf compared to core thief wich means noone would play daredevil anymore. The tradeoff is halving range of steal for unblockable steal not halving range of steal to compensate for the merits daredevil has to offer that is a non issue.
• in general the idea of making a thief a pointholder is not going to work without a massive overhall of the class becasue a soon as you buff daredevil to be a pointholder on par with other pointholder you have a problem because of shortbow and its mobility.
• when you nerf the range of steal you cant steal from a lot of spots you where able to before. You have to stay in a range where you get more damage where the enemy sees you quicker and steal as an engage skill will get a huge hit so huge that the entre gameplay of the class as a roamer will become not viable. S/D and rev are after the far better roamer.

the thing is that all those are balance issues while this change seems more of a design change

True but it would be only common sense to due the design change when u do the balance change(if there even is one) that way the design change works as intended and or spec works as intended. As it stands now DD with any weapon set used with DD will be a underperforming roamer,point holder and generally wont be viable compared to other classes in any role,its just silly.

[Sniper.5961]

@derd.6413 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@borgs.6103 said:

@derd.6413 said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Because the issue is if Swipe becoming an unblockable steal worth the 600 range nerf to it.

perhaps however the 600 range seems a tradeoff for the unblockable steal and the extra dodge and not just the unblockable steal.

Daredevils arlready had that extra dodge though before the upcoming "Swipe" change.

the swipe change came because of the extra dodge.like how pets get nerfed when equiping druid because of celestial avatar and why berserker mode is gonna replaces the F1 skills from now on.

Also, maybe you know this or not, but before Daredevils came, thieves used to already have 3 dodges from the Acrobatics traitline. Then they nerfed that and added it to daredevil as "something new" for the elite spec.

that's irrelevant to this discussion

Yeah, I get your point. Still the same argument though, just add the extra dodge now to the trade-off.

It's counter-productive IMO to their goal of making Daredevils more melee-oriented to nerf a gap-closer.

i don't really see it become an issue given that even without steal thief is among the more mobile classes (if not the most mobile class)

i think i already explained the issue with this enough here is a quick rundown:

• d/p daredevil getts nerfed even though it was more underperforming then overperforming and a situational build wich makes it not viable anymore thous d/p as a weaponset will not be usefull anymore.
• builddiversity is reduced because of it
• staff daredevil with swipe is a sub par duelist and a sub par roamer wich makes daredevil as a whole not viable in competitive pvp anymore.
• the daredevil traitline was already in line with the core traitlines we didnt forget the 3. dodge thats a grandmastertrait like impro exe or slight of hand all powerfull and none has a tradeoff. The other traitlines are so much in line that when you play the meta s/d build you dont take daredevil at all because even without any tradeoff right now 3 core traitlines are just straight up stonger then what the daredevil has to offer right now nerfing it would make it a sub par taitline and a nerf compared to core thief wich means noone would play daredevil anymore. The tradeoff is halving range of steal for unblockable steal not halving range of steal to compensate for the merits daredevil has to offer that is a non issue.
• in general the idea of making a thief a pointholder is not going to work without a massive overhall of the class becasue a soon as you buff daredevil to be a pointholder on par with other pointholder you have a problem because of shortbow and its mobility.
• when you nerf the range of steal you cant steal from a lot of spots you where able to before. You have to stay in a range where you get more damage where the enemy sees you quicker and steal as an engage skill will get a huge hit so huge that the entre gameplay of the class as a roamer will become not viable. S/D and rev are after the far better roamer.

the thing is that all those are balance issues while this change seems more of a design change

you can only make a design change when you take the propper time and recources to make it work and as it is now it clearly doesnt this is rushed for a design change not thought through, hurting the part of the community and thous the game benefiting nobody its just a huge mistake.

[Sniper.5961]

alright im really upset right now a net didnt even take the time to test it not only ignored they the community backlash but they didnt test if it works with cooldown reduction from trickery traitline - spoiler it does not. I noticed it the first second i looked at the skill how could this go through testing srsly continue to treat the community and the game like that and you will lose customers.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"derd.6413" said:why do i get the distinct feeling everybody is forgetting DD's third dodge in this whole discussion

Noone is forgetting it. The problem is, the third dodge already came with the downside of the forced dodge alteration (all of which have their own downside). Its also rather insignificant, since its quite literally just one extra dodge per fight, no matter how long the fight is. The steal change changes DD from "small upside, small downside" to "small upside, crippling downside".

[Alatar.7364]

Not only Swipe is even more completely unplayable than I thought, it also doesn't get one of the Steal CDs reduction and thus has higher CD than Steal....But I see now that people above figured that out too.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lmao I'm so very glad I canned this game before this patch.arenanet is literally toning down the already weak specs and basically leaving the actual powercrept ones as they are lol not surprising in the least.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Karl McLain.5604 please for the love of god just revert the change. It is pretty clear with the backlash it was a horrid change. Please go ask any of the high tier thieves and they will tell you it was awful.

[Gundam Style.8495]

@omgdracula.6345 said:@"Karl McLain.5604" please for the love of god just revert the change. It is pretty clear with the backlash it was a horrid change. Please go ask any of the high tier thieves and they will tell you it was awful.

It's clear the only people who think this makes any sense are non-thieves.I suggest just making swipe an attack that does something and a successful swipe gives a follow up "f2" or "daredevil" buff that helps them stay in the fight.If daredevil is not thematically thief, it should not "steal", losing the stolen skills should be the trade-off for some kungfu insteadThe range needs to be larger, 600 is horrible and death sentence.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:@"Karl McLain.5604" please for the love of god just revert the change. It is pretty clear with the backlash it was a horrid change. Please go ask any of the high tier thieves and they will tell you it was awful.

It's clear the only people who think this makes any sense are non-thieves.I suggest just making swipe an attack that does something and a successful swipe gives a follow up "f2" or "daredevil" buff that helps them stay in the fight.If daredevil is not thematically thief, it should not "steal", losing the stolen skills should be the trade-off for some kungfu insteadThe range needs to be larger, 600 is horrible and death sentence.

I actually like that idea. I would rather it be called sweep and be a knock down if it hits.

[reddie.5861]

@Xenji.4907 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:i will clarify that i meant to nerf the range only for daredevil and not for core

Oh I see. The nerf was aimed at staff builds. They are great for mobs and now they can dual better with the sustain buff. However the trade off is reduce the range of steal to reduce the chase potential for them because it might be too much. However 600 is a bit too much.

900 please, Anet! <3

better sustain? u cant even have a proper opener right now since pretty much every class ports around with more dmg then thief nowadays, i dont mind the remake but swipe is doing no good at all for thief in WvW cant speak for other gametypes.

i mean ur better off using d/p shadow shot which has 900 range then shitty swipe :p

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Monks focus,aura around DD and DD gets new staff skills that are melee-sustain oriented and bar depletes like reaper shroud. Be kinda cool