No Mount = Garbage

[Thea Cherry.6327]

Well, i guess we all know why mounts are in WvW. The PoF sales have gone down largely and they needed another group of players who have nothing to do with PVE to buy it, so what do you do? Add an item (mount) to a competitive game mode (basiclly it is) that gives you a huuuuge p2w buff.

Mounts are nothing else in WvW a p2w Item that has huge benefits.

Sadly, my second Acc is now dead, i only used it to play on Elona WvW, but without it i can forget that now.

[Obtena.7952]

@Thea Cherry.6327 said:Well, i guess we all know why mounts are in WvW. The PoF sales have gone down largely and they needed another group of players who have nothing to do with PVE to buy it, so what do you do? Add an item (mount) to a competitive game mode (basiclly it is) that gives you a huuuuge p2w buff.

Mounts are nothing else in WvW a p2w Item that has huge benefits.

Sadly, my second Acc is now dead, i only used it to play on Elona WvW, but without it i can forget that now.

We can speculate on all the reasons but when we saw gliding introduced, it certainly wasn't a far reach to see that mounts were inc too.

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW? I would bet it's not. We got people strutting around thinking Anet is going to take calls for mount rollbacks and nerfing to uselessness are going to be taken seriously? I can't wait to see how these people react to more mounts 'ruining' their ideas about what WvW should be.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:Everything else is just people somehow blind darting the actual issue. ?Luckily we only need to blind dart it when every part of the dart board says "buy PoF".

Guess that board is labeled under useless suggestions since just buying PoF isnt solving bad design choices or increasing player population. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[spectrito.8513]

@Obtena.7952 said:

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW?

Was the last for a lot of people.

[Obtena.7952]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW?

Was the last for a lot of people.

Sounds good. This just reinforces what I'm saying. People shouldn't play games where the direction isn't inline with what they like. Now Anet can focus on the people that are less sensitive or delusional.

[Balthzar.3807]

really simple, if its not a call out for defense we slow down to keep our new people with the zerg. if its a call out its best speed.

in the end its about helping people

[spectrito.8513]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW?

Was the last for a lot of people.

Sounds good. This just reinforces what I'm saying. People shouldn't play games where the direction isn't inline with what they like. Now Anet can focus on the people that are less sensitive or delusional.

Who would've thought that having less players in a MMO is a good thing ?Also, Anet focusing on WvW players ? rofl

Who's being delusional here?

[Obtena.7952]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW?

Was the last for a lot of people.

Sounds good. This just reinforces what I'm saying. People shouldn't play games where the direction isn't inline with what they like. Now Anet can focus on the people that are less sensitive or delusional.

Who would've thought that having less players in a MMO is a good thing ?Also, Anet focusing on WvW players ? rofl

Who's being delusional here?

If those players don't like the direction of the game ... it's a good thing they leave if they can't adapt. I mean, how is it good if they stay? Thinking there is some benefit to maintaining a fraction of unhappy players is nonsense. That's not delusion, that's common sense.

Anet can't please everyone with every change they make to the game. I'm not delusional acknowledging mounts are part of WvW now. It's funny you keep you accusing me of being delusional ... I've done nothing but acknowledge the reality of the game. If anyone is delusional here, it's the people that think that people leaving the game is a compelling reason to not make changes. That's nonsense.

There isn't a reason for Anet to cater to the most sensitive and unreasonable players; the game is going to change. If you don't like the changes, you have two choices ... and Anet knows that and makes those changes anyways ... these continued references to people leaving the game is not compelling reason to not change the game.

[Sovereign.1093]

i make it a thing that if a member of the squad has no mount, i run instead. not fun to leave the little guy alone. :/

there should be a rent a mount.

[Safandula.8723]

i did my warclaw when it was released, but i completly agree it should be changed now. i imagine getting mount to new ppl rn, can be frustrating

[OStork.9534]

It is a bit true that WvW isn't really inviting to new players. The mounts only make it a bit harder to get into it because unless you just really love the mode in your first 10 minutes or have done some excess level research into the simple warclaw acquisition system, chances are you may turn around and ignore the mode.

I don't believe mounts are bad for WvW though just that the mode could use some freshening up with its mechanics/etc. On the topic of mounts

• Entering wvw should introduce you to some quick tips and explain what you need to get started (and get a mount). An NPC should be there to update you and show you where you are at, like Gorrik with the Skyscale.
• Personally, I would love to see more mounts introduced into WvW! It shouldn't be about speed though but rather utility. For example: Dolyak mount that allows you to bring extra supply or even transport supply from camps to keeps, yourself. Make the mount system feel like a part of the mode and introduce new ways for players to participate, earn their pips and contribute.
• Warclaw is fine as it is. When I came back, I had to get into the groove of things and work up what I needed to get it. I think players having it as a tool is great but the zerg nature in WvW kind of puts new players at a disadvantage. This is more of a WvW issue than a Warclaw one. (Like, having a mount is pretty much necessary now to do HP trains in PVE but you don't need one for PVE or events in general. Commanders feel necessary for WvW which makes not being able to keep up with a zerg feel more painful than missing out on an HP train)

On World vs World as a whole

• Some people love roaming and group fights, others love the overall meta. Personally, I'd love to see more ways for players to contribute on a smaller scale. It should feel like a big instance where you can look at the map and decide that you want to do some stuff to help your kingdom's east side. Something other than just keeping an eye out for big zergs.
• More additions to the map - structures/etc. Transportation and mobility, especially to a new player, feels like a massive wall in this mode. Putting more waypoints or giving mounts away for free however don't feel right. I would love to see something like maps designed with more mechanics than our strictly medieval ones. Something like a "Trainyard" camp that you can seize and secure that transports supply could be good, especially if players can hop onto one that is passing by. It lacks the control that a zerg of mounted heroes have but it is an option for players to change up their approach to far away objectives.
• More realistically, everything I wrote above me could be easily achieved by introducing Ley-lines into WvW!
• WvW home instance? Better guild halls/home instances overall may be more important but for the people that love WvW, maybe having a place they can stay that connects to it would be better than being booted to PvE? Might feel more cosmetic than helpful, honestly!
• Champion mobs -- (correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like I remember there being stronger ally mobs that would march to enemy keeps?) -- might be cool to be able to send NPCs towards certain objective. I know the tough part is that any player may be able to send mobs off prematurely and that it may take away from the player vs player vibe in WvW. Random idea to go together with the "more small scale stuff to do on the field" concept! Raiding parties? Keep Lords relocating? Ambush parties waiting in the field? Who knows!

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts!

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW?

Was the last for a lot of people.

Sounds good. This just reinforces what I'm saying. People shouldn't play games where the direction isn't inline with what they like. Now Anet can focus on the people that are less sensitive or delusional.

Who would've thought that having less players in a MMO is a good thing ?Also, Anet focusing on WvW players ? rofl

Who's being delusional here?

There are quite a few World of Warcraft players who have been around since Vanilla..but they are a minority. MMOs lose players. Welcome to the genre. MMOs change too, and those changes cause players to leave. If you don't understand this, you don't understand MMOs. Player retention is always on a negative curve - you can't stop it, you can only work to slow it down.

And since you can't stop the decline of players, all you can do for this type of game is to bring in new players.

Do you know how many new players have come in to WvW? No, you don't. No really, you do not know this. You think you know. You have an idea based on your bias and the narrative you want to push, but none of that equals factual evidence. You know who knows that? ANET..the ones making these decisions. And I'm pretty sure they aren't coming into work every day trying to kill the game that provides them with a paycheck.

They have made changes to the game, and they will continue to make more changes to the game, and at each turn, the player's choice is to adapt and keep playing, or quit and find another game. ANET recognizes that some players will choose the 2nd option, but they execute these changes with the goal of adding / reviving more players to the game than those who leave.

Of course players can keep going on about how they think the develop is clueless...which begs the question, why does anyone continue to play a game being helmed by people they are convinced are clueless?

EDIT: also, let me add this to the pile: GW2 is a PvE game. SPvP and WvW are just side shows to the main event. This isn't GW1. So while the developers are working hard to grow the game mode, we have to be realistic when doing say and acknowledge that PvE keeps the lights on at ANET, and WvW/SPvP are just additional tools there to keep players playing. If WvW and PvP disappeared altogether, the game would continue on as PvE title just fine (imo obv)

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW?

Was the last for a lot of people.

Sounds good. This just reinforces what I'm saying. People shouldn't play games where the direction isn't inline with what they like. Now Anet can focus on the people that are less sensitive or delusional.

Who would've thought that having less players in a MMO is a good thing ?Also, Anet focusing on WvW players ? rofl

Who's being delusional here?

There are quite a few World of Warcraft players who have been around since Vanilla..but they are a minority. MMOs lose players. Welcome to the genre. MMOs change too, and those changes cause players to leave. If you don't understand this, you don't understand MMOs. Player retention is always on a negative curve - you can't stop it, you can only work to slow it down.

Actually, you can work to increase it and it is possible to do so, if the company is actually making smart design choices. Like not giving up on SPvP or WvW, or going silent for months when it comes to something as fragile as balancing. Or maybe not having dead skills and traits in the game for years.

And since you can't stop the decline of players, all you can do for this type of game is to bring in new players.

If the goal is to bring in new players, why would you make them pay to be competitive in a game mode that you've given them access to? At that point theyl just see poor class balancing and p2w mechanics.

Do you know how many new players have come in to WvW? No, you don't. No really, you do not know this. You think you know. You have an idea based on your bias and the narrative you want to push, but none of that equals factual evidence. You know who knows that? ANET..the ones making these decisions. And I'm pretty sure they aren't coming into work every day trying to kill the game that provides them with a paycheck.

Basing the fact off of how empty WvW has been getting. New or Old, the population is diminishing so whatever they are doing is not working. But we constantly see them digging a hole that is making the issue more complicated.

Wheres the factual evidence that WvW is very populated? Could it be the server merging? The amt of time a server is outnumbered? Maybe it's the non existent queue times a lot of servers are having ?

They have made changes to the game, and they will continue to make more changes to the game, and at each turn, the player's choice is to adapt and keep playing, or quit and find another game. ANET recognizes that some players will choose the 2nd option, but they execute these changes with the goal of adding / reviving more players to the game than those who leave.

Were ok with changes but if the community is dissatisfied then obviously the direction is wrong. If anything they should have a poll of ideas that they themselves came up with to get a reaction of how the community feels before they start to waste time on a mechanic that brings more harm then good to the game.

Of course players can keep going on about how they think the develop is clueless...which begs the question, why does anyone continue to play a game being helmed by people they are convinced are clueless?

I cant speak for everyone but i deleted the game a while back, but still come to the forums in Hope's of something that will bring me back or if I get bored with my log of current games.

EDIT: also, let me add this to the pile: GW2 is a PvE game. SPvP and WvW are just side shows to the main event. This isn't GW1. So while the developers are working hard to grow the game mode, we have to be realistic when doing say and acknowledge that PvE keeps the lights on at ANET, and WvW/SPvP are just additional tools there to keep players playing. If WvW and PvP disappeared altogether, the game would continue on as PvE title just fine (imo obv)

Sadly that's what the modes have become, on release and a bit down the line they were selling points. But, bad design took over and the modes have become what they are now.

[dryder.9762]

For a returning player, running without a mount totally blows... There are a handful of players that do hang back with you.. Sometimes I think I'm the bait for the roamers though, lol... But I do believe it can turn away players that can't keep up and it is a second health bar for players. Where one without a mount only has one..

[Drakz.7051]

Welcome to GW 2, if you can't be part of the blob you basically have to wait until they have come full circle.

[Obtena.7952]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW?

Was the last for a lot of people.

Sounds good. This just reinforces what I'm saying. People shouldn't play games where the direction isn't inline with what they like. Now Anet can focus on the people that are less sensitive or delusional.

Who would've thought that having less players in a MMO is a good thing ?Also, Anet focusing on WvW players ? rofl

Who's being delusional here?

There are quite a few World of Warcraft players who have been around since Vanilla..but they are a minority. MMOs lose players. Welcome to the genre. MMOs change too, and those changes cause players to leave. If you don't understand this, you don't understand MMOs. Player retention is always on a negative curve - you can't stop it, you can only work to slow it down.

Actually, you can work to increase it and it is possible to do so, if the company is actually making smart design choices. Like not giving up on SPvP or WvW, or going silent for months when it comes to something as fragile as balancing. Or maybe not having dead skills and traits in the game for years.

Well, the general trend is decline for sure. Maybe over the short term there is some release and pops go back up again ... but what he says is true. It's got nothing to do with dead skills or traits. Like all the sudden all traits not being dead brings players back? Please. Let's be honest here. The fact is that you might love watermelon ... but you can only eat watermelon so much before you get tired of it. Even with new releases ... there is very little mechanically that is new to attract people that didn't like or left GW2 prior.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW?

Was the last for a lot of people.

Sounds good. This just reinforces what I'm saying. People shouldn't play games where the direction isn't inline with what they like. Now Anet can focus on the people that are less sensitive or delusional.

Who would've thought that having less players in a MMO is a good thing ?Also, Anet focusing on WvW players ? rofl

Who's being delusional here?

There are quite a few World of Warcraft players who have been around since Vanilla..but they are a minority. MMOs lose players. Welcome to the genre. MMOs change too, and those changes cause players to leave. If you don't understand this, you don't understand MMOs. Player retention is always on a negative curve - you can't stop it, you can only work to slow it down.

Actually, you can work to increase it and it is possible to do so, if the company is actually making smart design choices. Like not giving up on SPvP or WvW, or going silent for months when it comes to something as fragile as balancing. Or maybe not having dead skills and traits in the game for years.

Well, the general trend is decline for sure. Maybe over the short term there is some release and pops go back up again ... but what he says is true. It's got nothing to do with dead skills or traits. Like all the sudden all traits not being dead brings players back? Please. Let's be honest here. The fact is that you might love watermelon ... but you can only eat watermelon so much before you get tired of it. Even with new releases ... there is very little mechanically that is new to attract people that didn't like or left GW2 prior.

It has a lot to do with dead skills and traits. It lowers build diversity, it lowers what can be used. If someone loves pet archetypes and the pet mechanics are garbage for years, why would they stay. Same with loving to play with turrets/ or whatever else. When you kill what brings players into the game and do nothing to bring it back for years, why would they come back or even stay?

This happened with WoW when they pruned classes and started nosediving on bad design practices that players werent happy with. Literally 4mil+ players that dropped out and possibly never returned to the point blizzard wont publicly announce there sub numbers anymore after the drop.

[Obtena.7952]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

What makes me laugh a little here about the mounts complaints ... does anyone here actually think this is the last mount we will see put into WvW?

Was the last for a lot of people.

Sounds good. This just reinforces what I'm saying. People shouldn't play games where the direction isn't inline with what they like. Now Anet can focus on the people that are less sensitive or delusional.

Who would've thought that having less players in a MMO is a good thing ?Also, Anet focusing on WvW players ? rofl

Who's being delusional here?

There are quite a few World of Warcraft players who have been around since Vanilla..but they are a minority. MMOs lose players. Welcome to the genre. MMOs change too, and those changes cause players to leave. If you don't understand this, you don't understand MMOs. Player retention is always on a negative curve - you can't stop it, you can only work to slow it down.

Actually, you can work to increase it and it is possible to do so, if the company is actually making smart design choices. Like not giving up on SPvP or WvW, or going silent for months when it comes to something as fragile as balancing. Or maybe not having dead skills and traits in the game for years.

Well, the general trend is decline for sure. Maybe over the short term there is some release and pops go back up again ... but what he says is true. It's got nothing to do with dead skills or traits. Like all the sudden all traits not being dead brings players back? Please. Let's be honest here. The fact is that you might love watermelon ... but you can only eat watermelon so much before you get tired of it. Even with new releases ... there is very little mechanically that is new to attract people that didn't like or left GW2 prior.

It has a lot to do with dead skills and traits. It lowers build diversity, it lowers what can be used. If someone loves pet archetypes and the pet mechanics are garbage for years, why would they stay. Same with loving to play with turrets/ or whatever else. When you kill what brings players into the game and do nothing to bring it back for years, why would they come back or even stay?

This happened with WoW when they pruned classes and started nosediving on bad design practices that players werent happy with. Literally 4mil+ players that dropped out and possibly never returned to the point blizzard wont publicly announce there sub numbers anymore after the drop.

You have assumed these are significant reasons people leave ... that's a pretty bad assumption from where I sit because we have had 'dead' trait since day 1 and if i twas that significant, this game wouldn't be around right now. What matters to people is if they have traits they can use ... and they do. Having a few dead traits is irrelevant in a game that is designed around optimal solutions. There is LOTS of build diversity if you don't worship meta builds. Don't confuse dead traits for traits used for optimal builds. Bottomline here: Whether you care about optimal builds or not, dead traits don't affect you. Build diversity is not a problem for people that play for optimal situations ... nor is it problem for people that don't.

Anyways, this is off track ... the fact is that generally, games lose players over the long run. There isn't a reason to dispute that unless you have an axe to grind with Anet.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:When you kill what brings players into the game and do nothing to bring it back for years, why would they come back or even stay?

I agree, but have fun defining "what brings players" into the game. Everyone is different. Some players play only WvW while others play every game mode. So many issues debated/cried about on these forums have different importance to different people at different times for different reasons.

People will try to point to "X" and say "AHA, there is where ANET went wrong!", not realizing that "X" might be an issue to THEM, but lots of other people either don't care, or are actually happier with "X".

A great example is the Warclaw. Many pseudo-activists on this forum decry the mount as killing WvW. Really? Shortly after I started playing GW2, I started trying out WvW and reading the forums - and the first thing that stood out for me was so many posting about WvW being a dead game mode. Clearly plenty of players quit the game before the introduction of the Warclaw, and many players have quit the game after the introduction of the Warclaw but not necessarily BECAUSE of the Warclaw.

Was it lack of class balance? Coverage? No alliances? Bored of the game? Found another game they liked more? Combination of any of those, last straw and all that? It will be different for everyone. But it is impossible to conclude that the reason the game mode is in the state it is in is because of the Warclaw (or any other single issue a player wants to focus on)

Thing is, nobody who posts on this forums without an ANET tag knows the correct answer to these questions. It's just speculation fueled by bias, agenda and anecdotal experience, and is nothing more than opinion rendered by the vocal minority of a small subset of WvW players.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Obtena.7952 said:

You have assumed these are significant reasons people leave ... that's a pretty bad assumption from where I sit because we have had 'dead' trait since day 1 and if i twas that significant, this game wouldn't be around right now.

Its not assumption, its common sense for a reason why people would leave the game. Yes we had dead traits since day 1, but day 1 and current gw2 plays a lot differently where we also had more choices for how we did our trait selection.

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

I agree, but have fun defining "what brings players" into the game. Everyone is different. Some players play only WvW while others play every game mode. So many issues debated/cried about on these forums have different importance to different people at different times for different reasons.

It was a blanket term that could be for anything in the game. So yes it has a subjective meaning depending on what brought a player into the game.

People will try to point to "X" and say "AHA, there is where ANET went wrong!", not realizing that "X" might be an issue to THEM, but lots of other people either don't care, or are actually happier with "X".

A great example is the Warclaw. Many pseudo-activists on this forum decry the mount as killing WvW. Really? Shortly after I started playing GW2, I started trying out WvW and reading the forums - and the first thing that stood out for me was so many posting about WvW being a dead game mode. Clearly plenty of players quit the game before the introduction of the Warclaw, and many players have quit the game after the introduction of the Warclaw but not necessarily BECAUSE of the Warclaw.

The difference between pointing out X for being a issue or not is with knowledge of how it will effect the game. Whether people like warclaw or not matters very little if it continuously complicates balancing and promotes lesser player interaction. What does it do?

Hp buffer, 3 dodges, bugged animations(yay desyncing), a benefit in combat (warclaw stomp), immune to all CC.

Not to mention, if you do not own PoF but do own (Core, Hot, F2P), your out of luck. People may say "well PoF is only X amt of money" but this is a principle that should not hold in a pvp game mode as it just gives Anet reason to continuously add in p2w mechanics in the future.

Was it lack of class balance? Coverage? No alliances? Bored of the game? Found another game they liked more? Combination of any of those, last straw and all that? It will be different for everyone. But it is impossible to conclude that the reason the game mode is in the state it is in is because of the Warclaw (or any other single issue a player wants to focus on)

Yes, its different for everyone, but its not impossible to make that conclusion as it aides in the decision. Everything matters and when you tack on unhealthy changes with more unhealthy changes, it makes it all that easier for your population to vanish.

Thing is, nobody who posts on this forums without an ANET tag knows the correct answer to these questions. It's just speculation fueled by bias, agenda and anecdotal experience, and is nothing more than opinion rendered by the vocal minority of a small subset of WvW players.Its pretty much common sense for the reasons of things you actually experience when you play the game bundled with the opinions of Team/Map/Guild(s) chat on the reasons for why players leavet. Saying Anet tags know the correct answer isnt believable given the hit or miss status of balance and SPvP. But they are doing PvE right atleast.

[Ashantara.8731]

You should communicate to the Commander that you don't have a mount yet. Many are nice enough to take that into consideration and walk instead of ride for most parts.

The warclaw was introduced to lure PvE players into WvW, now it seems to have to opposite effect. ;) You really should get the mount, it doesn't take long.

[Obtena.7952]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

You have assumed these are significant reasons people leave ... that's a pretty bad assumption from where I sit because we have had 'dead' trait since day 1 and if i twas that significant, this game wouldn't be around right now.

Its not assumption, its common sense for a reason why people would leave the game. Yes we had dead traits since day 1, but day 1 and current gw2 plays a lot differently where we also had more choices for how we did our trait selection.

Sure people can leave for whatever reason they want. The question is if it's significant (and yes, you missed that qualifier I had there). Dead traits isn't and neither is build diversity because as I pointed out ... people that care about optimal builds are not all that concerned about build diversity and people concerned about diversity don't care about optimal builds ... or put it this way ... those that are aren't reasonable people to begin with and can't be appeased anyhow. Those reasons are probably at the bottom of list for reasons people leave.

Put it this way, if dead traits and build diversity are the biggest reasons people leave ... we don't have much reason to be concerned that people leave.

None of this changes the fact that MMOs' lose players over time. Again ... getting lost in the weeds. Maybe it's a hobby of yours.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Obtena.7952 said:

Sure people can leave for whatever reason they want. The question is if it's significant (and yes, you missed that qualifier I had there). Dead traits isn't and neither is build diversity because as I pointed out ... people that care about optimal builds are not all that concerned about build diversity and people concerned about diversity don't care about optimal builds. Those reasons are probably at the bottom of list for reasons people leave.

Im pretty sure the population drop is significant enough to pause and rethink how the game is being designed. This goes for WvW in general, as well as PvP.

Dead traits and skills are the bottom of the list? I wouldn't say that necessarily since balance is one of the things majority can agree on is a ongoing issue in this game.

Put it this way, if dead traits and build diversity are the biggest reasons people leave ... we don't have much reason to be concerned that people leave.

Never said this?

None of this changes the fact that MMOs' lose players over time. Again ... getting lost in the weeds. Maybe it's a hobby of yours.Ofcourse mmos nowadays lose players over time. Because many mmos nowadays are generic garbage. Like I said before, a mmo with good design will gain more then it loses. Vanilla WoW did it all the way up till cataclysm. (5 years of population growth.)

[Obtena.7952]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Sure people can leave for whatever reason they want. The question is if it's significant (and yes, you missed that qualifier I had there). Dead traits isn't and neither is build diversity because as I pointed out ... people that care about optimal builds are not all that concerned about build diversity and people concerned about diversity don't care about optimal builds. Those reasons are probably at the bottom of list for reasons people leave.

Im pretty sure the population drop is significant enough to pause and rethink how the game is being designed. This goes for WvW in general, as well as PvP.

Dead traits and skills are the bottom of the list? I wouldn't say that necessarily since balance is one of the things majority can agree on is a ongoing issue in this game.

Hold on ... we were not talking about the population drop in general for WVW and PVP. Don't change the goal posts here. We were talking specifically about Dead traits and build diversity.

Furthermore, dead traits aren't related to balance. We could have amazing balance and still have lots of dead traits. Likewise, we could have no dead traits and terrible balance. There is zero correlation there. Same with build diversity.

You can say that good design attracts more players than a game loses ... that's a pretty shallow and poorly made assessment simply based on what we see in the industry.

There isn't anything to debate here. Maybe in your MMO thought experiment, games gain players over a long time. Maybe in your MMO thought experiment, hordes of people leave because there are some traits that aren't useful to them. That's not relevant in the actual game. We have had useless traits forever, yet people still play. We have had player decline similar to other games. Seems to me that these claims are just attempts to scare Anet into giving you the kind of game balance and fixes you want. That approach hasn't worked for anyone else for 7 years ... why is that going to work for you?

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Sure people can leave for whatever reason they want. The question is if it's significant (and yes, you missed that qualifier I had there). Dead traits isn't and neither is build diversity because as I pointed out ... people that care about optimal builds are not all that concerned about build diversity and people concerned about diversity don't care about optimal builds. Those reasons are probably at the bottom of list for reasons people leave.

Im pretty sure the population drop is significant enough to pause and rethink how the game is being designed. This goes for WvW in general, as well as PvP.

Dead traits and skills are the bottom of the list? I wouldn't say that necessarily since balance is one of the things majority can agree on is a ongoing issue in this game.

Hold on ... we were not talking about the population drop in general for WVW and PVP. Don't change the goal posts here. We were talking specifically about Dead traits and build diversity.

??? We were talking about the reasons for population drop. I listed a reason being Poor balance interms of traits and skills. As its a piece of unhealthy design ontop of mounts which is also unhealthy design for reasons already stated.Furthermore,

dead traits aren't related to balance.

We could have amazing balance and still have lots of dead traits. Likewise, we could have no dead traits and terrible balance. There is zero correlation there. Same with build diversity.

What?You can say that good design attracts more players than a game loses ... that's a pretty shallow and poorly made assessment simply based on what we see in the industry.

But its true. Satisfaction levels matter when you want to retain players.

There isn't anything to debate here. Maybe in your MMO thought experiment, games gain players over a long time. Maybe in your MMO thought experiment, hordes of people leave because there are some traits that aren't useful to them. That's not relevant in the actual game. We have had useless traits forever, yet people still play. We have had player decline similar to other games. Seems to me that these claims are just attempts to scare Anet into giving you the kind of game balance and fixes you want. That approach hasn't worked for anyone else for 7 years ... why is that going to work for you?

You mean, you have no information to debate with? Your purposely taking my comments too literal to find a hole in my reasoning. If you take a second and actually think about what your reading youl understand that dead traits and skills is a sign of poor balancing, which means players have to pigeonhole themselves to a playstyle they dont like to compete meaning there is no enjoyment in the class they choose to play meaning why play at all if you arent enjoying the game?

How am I scaring anet into understanding why there playerbase in WvW and SPvP is getting less and less? By giving feedback on why the game is currently in player count decline? How has there current approach been working for the past 7 years in these modes?