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Nerf the Mirage Daze spam


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@Nezekan.2671 said:I have no sympathy for some classes making these complaints. The best example is most likely spellbreaker here, who DEFINITELY has the toolkit to deal with both condition damage and daze spam, but choose not to do it, to run their own barrage of CC and damage. Its a decision you made and if a build exists in meta that will punish you for making that decision, all the better.

Mirage always had these skills exactly the way they are now. So you might ask what changed? The meta did. People no longer run the tools necessary for dealing with build like this, but in previous metas, everyone had their condi cleanse and stability at the ready. We are at a burst meta, so you hardly see those anymore

As for Mantras not having casting, isn't that the same for Firebrand? Firebrand's heal and elite skill are very good as well, arguably better. How does Mesmer mantras suddenly become OP, when Firebrand is literally one of the best specs in the game.

Instant cast defenses are healthier competitively than instant cast offenses. That's why when people talk about how uncompetative Mantras are, they're not talking about the mesmer Heal, Cleanse, and Stunbreak mantras or the Guardian Healing and Elite mantras.

The cooldowns on the Firebrand mantras are also better handled. The ammo counts have moderately long 12 second cooldowns. And if you go through all of your mantra ammo, you suffer a longer 25s coodlown until you can recharge it to punish recklessly spamming it.

Compare mesmer's Mantra of Distraction which has a 25s recharge on the ammo, but if you double cast the mantra it only has a 12 cooldown on recharging the mantra and getting both charges back. So spamming it off cooldown ends up being rewarding on mesmer, getting more dazes, getting your dazes back quicker than if you waited for the ammo as well as rewarding you with cooldown recharges on the F3 daze, while it's punishing on Firebrand.

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I would be fine with a cooldown increase. But the whole idea of Mantras is casting long now, and use later. It would be completely against the idea of mantras if we changed one mesmer mantra and left everything else they way they are.

Also lets be honest here, chaotic interruption is the whole idea behind the build. Without it, this mesmer build is just a stun bot with little damage. But they stack up might and perma immobilize you due to synergy of interruption in the build.

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People see the problem well, but as always, your proposed solutions are awful. The problem is how spamming interrupts with the way mesmer is now has just too many synergies.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruptionhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Delayed_Reactions

Also there are some in the Domination traitline but I didn't include them because they are fine imo. Here is how you could solve the mantraspam problem: put ICD-s on these traits I just linked, so brainlessly spamming all the interrupts you have access to will only grant diminishing returns.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Nezekan.2671 said:I have no sympathy for some classes making these complaints. The best example is most likely spellbreaker here, who DEFINITELY has the toolkit to deal with both condition damage and daze spam, but choose not to do it, to run their own barrage of CC and damage. Its a decision you made and if a build exists in meta that will punish you for making that decision, all the better.

Mirage always had these skills exactly the way they are now. So you might ask what changed? The meta did. People no longer run the tools necessary for dealing with build like this, but in previous metas, everyone had their condi cleanse and stability at the ready. We are at a burst meta, so you hardly see those anymore

As for Mantras not having casting, isn't that the same for Firebrand? Firebrand's heal and elite skill are very good as well, arguably better. How does Mesmer mantras suddenly become OP, when Firebrand is literally one of the best specs in the game.

Instant cast defenses are healthier competitively than instant cast offenses. That's why when people talk about how uncompetative Mantras are, they're not talking about the mesmer Heal, Cleanse, and Stunbreak mantras or the Guardian Healing and Elite mantras.

The cooldowns on the Firebrand mantras are also better handled. The ammo counts have moderately long 12 second cooldowns. And if you go through all of your mantra ammo, you suffer a longer 25s coodlown until you can recharge it to punish recklessly spamming it.

Compare mesmer's Mantra of Distraction which has a 25s recharge on the ammo, but if you double cast the mantra it only has a 12 cooldown on recharging the mantra and getting both charges back. So spamming it off cooldown ends up being rewarding on mesmer, getting more dazes, getting your dazes back quicker than if you waited for the ammo as well as rewarding you with cooldown recharges on the F3 daze, while it's punishing on Firebrand.

You can see it quite differently. With having higher recharge recovery a Mesmer is forced way more often into the very vulnerable time of fully recharging the mantra for 2.25 secs and can't rly do anything else during that. A light armor class like Mesmer also naturally doesn't have as much passive sustain to cover it, means the Mesmer most likely either needs to completely disengage out of the fight (what means even more downtime the mesmer is doing nothing) or he has to use other cds to cover it.

Fb gets rewarded by not being forced into the vulnerable time of fully recharging for 2,25 secs. Would be pretty hard in a teamfight when your team needs support but you are busy recharging mantras for over 2 secs, would be pretty unhandy for an on point def and support class.

If you give Mesmers Mantras the same low recharge inbetween uses and for that a higher cd when using all charges after another and 3 instead 2 ammo charges like the Fb mantras, then i even would call it a buff to Mesmers Mantras. A Fb can use his Mantras almost more often without the need of the 2,25 secs recharge than a Mesmer and with avoiding a highly vulnerable no impact downtime of a 2,25 secs recharge after all uses are gone. (to give a Guard an incentive to ever use the last charge Anet even needed to add a stronger last charge on the mantras otherwise you don't need to call them mantra when a Fb literally only recharge them one time in a match at matchstart and then has infinite uses with low cd and no recharge downtime).

Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra i doesn't have any dmg by its own. Only buffing it with traits gives it additional effects. In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable and (back to facts again:) without op traits like CI or Lost Time it doesn't even worth to be random spammed. I agree that the recharge from mantra on f3 could be a bit lower, no clue why they even added it, i guess it is to reward the Mesmer for having high opportunity costs from the need of recharing it for 2,25 secs. Make Mantra of Distraction cd 15 secs instead 12 for the recharge and 5 instead 4 inbetween uses if you feel better then. But more would be too much for sure and i even think there isn't a cd increase needed at all.

Mantra of Pain is a different story.

@"Bazsi.2734" said:People see the problem well, but as always, your proposed solutions are awful. The problem is how spamming interrupts with the way mesmer is now has just too many synergies.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruptionhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Delayed_Reactions

Also there are some in the Domination traitline but I didn't include them because they are fine imo. Here is how you could solve the mantraspam problem: put ICD-s on these traits I just linked, so brainlessly spamming all the interrupts you have access to will only grant diminishing returns.

That is more or less what i said, you are just coming from another direction. The overperforming traits (CI, Lost Time) are the problem, not the mantra itself. An Icd on Chaotic Interruption wouldn't be enough (better than the current situation ofc but it would still be problematic) because even with Icd an instant lock down should not exist. The immob needs to go. Make it chill instead or something and give that an Icd. Because stacked chill into perma chill would be very unfun to play against too although not as deadly.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge.40 seconds ?!?!?!?! To save ths aids immob proc? Are you okay there?Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.Yes, sure, why bother interrupting close to instant skills, lets just make it slow moving projectile and make it 3 time worse than distracting daggers that has inbuild power block, 3 charges recharging automatically, you are genius ! /s

I get plenty of interrupts with Magic Bullet and it's a projectile. Right now Mantra of Daze is being run at nearly 100% usage rate on both Power and Condi mesmers. And on NA at least in plat 2 Mesmers are making up 2-4 most games. Heck, I have had extremely close games where the enemy team was literally three Chaotic Interruption mesmers.It being ran 100% because CI on condi mirage with maximum condi duration makes it 3 seconds, you have to stay stationary and take this phantasmal duelist with over ~16 bleeds from 1 skill that delete 50% of your health alone, just as other damage sources.

On a Deadshot or Wanderer amulet Phantasmal Duelist is only 1k more damage as a guardian's Ray of Judgement Focus 4 on a Maruader's amulet. And it has a far bigger tell and the bleed stacks take an entire 2+ seconds of pistol unload animation where you are free to dodge or block as soon as you hear pistol shots coming your way. And you can cleanse it. Phantasmal Duelist is fine.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge.40 seconds ?!?!?!?! To save ths aids immob proc? Are you okay there?Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.Yes, sure, why bother interrupting close to instant skills, lets just make it slow moving projectile and make it 3 time worse than distracting daggers that has inbuild power block, 3 charges recharging automatically, you are genius ! /s

I get plenty of interrupts with Magic Bullet and it's a projectile. Right now Mantra of Daze is being run at nearly 100% usage rate on both Power and Condi mesmers. And on NA at least in plat 2 Mesmers are making up 2-4 most games. Heck, I have had extremely close games where the enemy team was literally three Chaotic Interruption mesmers.It being ran 100% because CI on condi mirage with maximum condi duration makes it 3 seconds, you have to stay stationary and take this phantasmal duelist with over ~16 bleeds from 1 skill that delete 50% of your health alone, just as other damage sources.

On a Deadshot or Wanderer amulet Phantasmal Duelist is only 1k more damage as a guardian's Ray of Judgement Focus 4 on a Maruader's amulet. And it has a far bigger tell and the bleed stacks take an entire 2+ seconds of pistol unload animation where you are free to dodge or block as soon as you hear pistol shots coming your way. And you can cleanse it. Phantasmal Duelist is fine.Okay... Well... its becomes not fine with 3s immob from chaos interrupt,assuming you are running condi duration amulets,the thing is that you stack a lot of bleeds for kind of very short duration which make it look like a burst damage from conditions (which certain people are complaining about). Well its still not that bad as scourge that put torments,bleeds and burn that tick for like 6k damage per second but still.Then what about power phantasms, can they have have some love without need perma 25 mights with a trait to do respectable damage, wasnt phantasms supposed to be nearly main source of our damage (at least in the past)? ~4k damage from phantasmal berserker on 20s cd thats kinda sad(and struggle to hit consistently)... then we have 30s cd torch phantasm with a huge windup which you can evade just by walking away from it or phantasmal swordsman that cant hit moving targets, like ever. I know thats happened because anet dont wanted to remove/nerf CP at first to nerf it later but still I think its dumb.
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@"praqtos.9035" said:Then what about power phantasms, can they have have some love without need perma 25 mights with a trait to do respectable damage, wasnt phantasms supposed to be nearly main source of our damage (at least in the past)? ~4k damage from phantasmal berserker on 20s cd thats kinda sad(and struggle to hit consistently)... then we have 30s cd torch phantasm with a huge windup which you can evade just by walking away from it or phantasmal swordsman that cant hit moving targets, like ever. I know thats happened because anet dont wanted to remove/nerf CP at first to nerf it later but still I think its dumb.

Just want to chime in to say I still kitten despise Phantasmal swordsman. I would rather have a skill with 1sec cast time and 20sec cd that says "this skill does nothing", at least it would be accurate.Did your target walk? It misses. Is your target on a different ground level it will attack the air. Kitten stupid skill.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge.40 seconds ?!?!?!?! To save ths aids immob proc? Are you okay there?Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.Yes, sure, why bother interrupting close to instant skills, lets just make it slow moving projectile and make it 3 time worse than distracting daggers that has inbuild power block, 3 charges recharging automatically, you are genius ! /s

I get plenty of interrupts with Magic Bullet and it's a projectile. Right now Mantra of Daze is being run at nearly 100% usage rate on both Power and Condi mesmers. And on NA at least in plat 2 Mesmers are making up 2-4 most games. Heck, I have had extremely close games where the enemy team was literally three Chaotic Interruption mesmers.It being ran 100% because CI on condi mirage with maximum condi duration makes it 3 seconds, you have to stay stationary and take this phantasmal duelist with over ~16 bleeds from 1 skill that delete 50% of your health alone, just as other damage sources.

On a Deadshot or Wanderer amulet Phantasmal Duelist is only 1k more damage as a guardian's Ray of Judgement Focus 4 on a Maruader's amulet. And it has a far bigger tell and the bleed stacks take an entire 2+ seconds of pistol unload animation where you are free to dodge or block as soon as you hear pistol shots coming your way. And you can cleanse it. Phantasmal Duelist is fine.Okay... Well... its becomes not fine with 3s immob from chaos interrupt,assuming you are running condi duration amulets,the thing is that you stack a lot of bleeds for kind of very short duration which make it look like a burst damage from conditions (which certain people are complaining about). Well its still not that bad as scourge that put torments,bleeds and burn that tick for like 6k damage per second but still.Then what about power phantasms, can they have have some love without need perma 25 mights with a trait to do respectable damage, wasnt phantasms supposed to be nearly main source of our damage (at least in the past)? ~4k damage from phantasmal berserker on 20s cd thats kinda sad(and struggle to hit consistently)... then we have 30s cd torch phantasm with a huge windup which you can evade just by walking away from it or phantasmal swordsman that cant hit moving targets, like ever. I know thats happened because anet dont wanted to remove/nerf CP at first to nerf it later but still I think its dumb.

Actually without the might boon from Chaotic Interruption, this build is a low damage stun bot. That might is everything.

Which comes to the point I'm trying to make. This build is currently the only viable mesmer build in higher ranks. Chrono is pretty much a dead spec and needs a buff. Mirage is doing fine, but condition damage is very lacking in current meta. So its not just a Mirage problem, unless you are a scourge, you will struggle as any condi class, including mirage.

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@Nezekan.2671 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge.40 seconds ?!?!?!?! To save ths aids immob proc? Are you okay there?Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.Yes, sure, why bother interrupting close to instant skills, lets just make it slow moving projectile and make it 3 time worse than distracting daggers that has inbuild power block, 3 charges recharging automatically, you are genius ! /s

I get plenty of interrupts with Magic Bullet and it's a projectile. Right now Mantra of Daze is being run at nearly 100% usage rate on both Power and Condi mesmers. And on NA at least in plat 2 Mesmers are making up 2-4 most games. Heck, I have had extremely close games where the enemy team was literally three Chaotic Interruption mesmers.It being ran 100% because CI on condi mirage with maximum condi duration makes it 3 seconds, you have to stay stationary and take this phantasmal duelist with over ~16 bleeds from 1 skill that delete 50% of your health alone, just as other damage sources.

On a Deadshot or Wanderer amulet Phantasmal Duelist is only 1k more damage as a guardian's Ray of Judgement Focus 4 on a Maruader's amulet. And it has a far bigger tell and the bleed stacks take an entire 2+ seconds of pistol unload animation where you are free to dodge or block as soon as you hear pistol shots coming your way. And you can cleanse it. Phantasmal Duelist is fine.Okay... Well... its becomes not fine with 3s immob from chaos interrupt,assuming you are running condi duration amulets,the thing is that you stack a lot of bleeds for kind of very short duration which make it look like a burst damage from conditions (which certain people are complaining about). Well its still not that bad as scourge that put torments,bleeds and burn that tick for like 6k damage per second but still.Then what about power phantasms, can they have have some love without need perma 25 mights with a trait to do respectable damage, wasnt phantasms supposed to be nearly main source of our damage (at least in the past)? ~4k damage from phantasmal berserker on 20s cd thats kinda sad(and struggle to hit consistently)... then we have 30s cd torch phantasm with a huge windup which you can evade just by walking away from it or phantasmal swordsman that cant hit moving targets, like ever. I know thats happened because anet dont wanted to remove/nerf CP at first to nerf it later but still I think its dumb.

Actually without the might boon from Chaotic Interruption, this build is a low damage stun bot. That might is everything.

Which comes to the point I'm trying to make. This build is currently the only viable mesmer build in higher ranks. Chrono is pretty much a dead spec and needs a buff. Mirage is doing fine, but condition damage is very lacking in current meta. So its not just a Mirage problem, unless you are a scourge, you will struggle as any condi class, including mirage.I'm well aware that chrono is kind of dead without this chaos interrupt that gives might and immob your targets. I dont think any power mesmer build is "alive" (that is not a chronobunker with chaos rupt, I find that pretty stupid combo,thus with death of ci it will vanish as well). Funny or not you can get for 5 seconds 25 might on power gs ambush but what the point of burning 2 evades and still to do low damage?:DI'm well aware that scourge is the only condi/corrupt spam bot that doesnt care how much condi cleanses you have.You know, I could propose nerfs that I think are needed, I can propose buffs I think are needed as well but in the end of the day 0 buff suggestions would be taken, all nerf suggestions are might be applied
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Yes its been 7 years of complaints.

I can't listen to them anymore, same complaints even after the class is overnerfed to the ground. Its starting to feel like noise.

Mom, why can't I execute my regular combo that works on every other class? Clones OP. PLZ nerf

Its baffling to see more threads and complaints about Memsers when the meta is completely controlled by Firebrand, Scourge, Herald and Spellbreaker. In fact a Firebrand hugging a scourge will make this Mesmer build completely useless in teamfights. Spellbreaker can slot in utilities to completely counter this build. Reaver can mass cleave your clones instantly and jump you.

Don't even get me started on Scrapper.

I can see how other classes would struggle against this, but given how they are not meta, its not really hurting the state of the game. As I said, I have no sympathy for people who play the specs I mentioned and complain about this Mirage build. They are a much bigger problem to the state of the game.

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@Nezekan.2671 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Like the ammo recharge should go down to 15 seconds on recharge and the full mantra cooldown should be 40 seconds on recharge.40 seconds ?!?!?!?! To save ths aids immob proc? Are you okay there?Mantra of Daze and Mantra of Pain should probably be turned into Projectiles with travel time as well, just to add some counterplay to the abilities.Yes, sure, why bother interrupting close to instant skills, lets just make it slow moving projectile and make it 3 time worse than distracting daggers that has inbuild power block, 3 charges recharging automatically, you are genius ! /s

I get plenty of interrupts with Magic Bullet and it's a projectile. Right now Mantra of Daze is being run at nearly 100% usage rate on both Power and Condi mesmers. And on NA at least in plat 2 Mesmers are making up 2-4 most games. Heck, I have had extremely close games where the enemy team was literally three Chaotic Interruption mesmers.It being ran 100% because CI on condi mirage with maximum condi duration makes it 3 seconds, you have to stay stationary and take this phantasmal duelist with over ~16 bleeds from 1 skill that delete 50% of your health alone, just as other damage sources.

On a Deadshot or Wanderer amulet Phantasmal Duelist is only 1k more damage as a guardian's Ray of Judgement Focus 4 on a Maruader's amulet. And it has a far bigger tell and the bleed stacks take an entire 2+ seconds of pistol unload animation where you are free to dodge or block as soon as you hear pistol shots coming your way. And you can cleanse it. Phantasmal Duelist is fine.Okay... Well... its becomes not fine with 3s immob from chaos interrupt,assuming you are running condi duration amulets,the thing is that you stack a lot of bleeds for kind of very short duration which make it look like a burst damage from conditions (which certain people are complaining about). Well its still not that bad as scourge that put torments,bleeds and burn that tick for like 6k damage per second but still.Then what about power phantasms, can they have have some love without need perma 25 mights with a trait to do respectable damage, wasnt phantasms supposed to be nearly main source of our damage (at least in the past)? ~4k damage from phantasmal berserker on 20s cd thats kinda sad(and struggle to hit consistently)... then we have 30s cd torch phantasm with a huge windup which you can evade just by walking away from it or phantasmal swordsman that cant hit moving targets, like ever. I know thats happened because anet dont wanted to remove/nerf CP at first to nerf it later but still I think its dumb.

Actually without the might boon from Chaotic Interruption, this build is a low damage stun bot. That might is everything.

Which comes to the point I'm trying to make. This build is currently the only viable mesmer build in higher ranks. Chrono is pretty much a dead spec and needs a buff. Mirage is doing fine, but condition damage is very lacking in current meta. So its not just a Mirage problem, unless you are a scourge, you will struggle as any condi class, including mirage.

you have some peaks with the might gain from CI triggering multiple times in clutch situations, but more of the might gain is from chaos vortex (8 max for 15+ secs) and more importantly the huge might stacks you steal from spellbreakers, holos, rev with arcane thievery which you should always do if they are loaded with mightthe core of the build is IH + DE, the rest is flexible including CI

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Nezekan.2671 said:I have no sympathy for some classes making these complaints. The best example is most likely spellbreaker here, who DEFINITELY has the toolkit to deal with both condition damage and daze spam, but choose not to do it, to run their own barrage of CC and damage. Its a decision you made and if a build exists in meta that will punish you for making that decision, all the better.

Mirage always had these skills exactly the way they are now. So you might ask what changed? The meta did. People no longer run the tools necessary for dealing with build like this, but in previous metas, everyone had their condi cleanse and stability at the ready. We are at a burst meta, so you hardly see those anymore

As for Mantras not having casting, isn't that the same for Firebrand? Firebrand's heal and elite skill are very good as well, arguably better. How does Mesmer mantras suddenly become OP, when Firebrand is literally one of the best specs in the game.

Instant cast defenses are healthier competitively than instant cast offenses. That's why when people talk about how uncompetative Mantras are, they're not talking about the mesmer Heal, Cleanse, and Stunbreak mantras or the Guardian Healing and Elite mantras.

The cooldowns on the Firebrand mantras are also better handled. The ammo counts have moderately long 12 second cooldowns. And if you go through all of your mantra ammo, you suffer a longer 25s coodlown until you can recharge it to punish recklessly spamming it.

Compare mesmer's Mantra of Distraction which has a 25s recharge on the ammo, but if you double cast the mantra it only has a 12 cooldown on recharging the mantra and getting both charges back. So spamming it off cooldown ends up being rewarding on mesmer, getting more dazes, getting your dazes back quicker than if you waited for the ammo as well as rewarding you with cooldown recharges on the F3 daze, while it's punishing on Firebrand.

You can see it quite differently. With having higher recharge recovery a Mesmer is forced way more often into the very vulnerable time of fully recharging the mantra for 2.25 secs and can't rly do anything else during that. A light armor class like Mesmer also naturally doesn't have as much passive sustain to cover it, means the Mesmer most likely either needs to completely disengage out of the fight (what means even more downtime the mesmer is doing nothing) or he has to use other cds to cover it.

Fb gets rewarded by not being forced into the vulnerable time of fully recharging for 2,25 secs. Would be pretty hard in a teamfight when your team needs support but you are busy recharging mantras for over 2 secs, would be pretty unhandy for an on point def and support class.

If you give Mesmers Mantras the same low recharge inbetween uses and for that a higher cd when using all charges after another and 3 instead 2 ammo charges like the Fb mantras, then i even would call it a buff to Mesmers Mantras. A Fb can use his Mantras almost more often without the need of the 2,25 secs recharge than a Mesmer and with avoiding a highly vulnerable no impact downtime of a 2,25 secs recharge after all uses are gone. (to give a Guard an incentive to ever use the last charge Anet even needed to add a stronger last charge on the mantras otherwise you don't need to call them mantra when a Fb literally only recharge them one time in a match at matchstart and then has infinite uses with low cd and no recharge downtime).

Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra i doesn't have any dmg by its own. Only buffing it with traits gives it additional effects. In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable and (back to facts again:) without op traits like CI or Lost Time it doesn't even worth to be random spammed. I agree that the recharge from mantra on f3 could be a bit lower, no clue why they even added it, i guess it is to reward the Mesmer for having high opportunity costs from the need of recharing it for 2,25 secs. Make Mantra of Distraction cd 15 secs instead 12 for the recharge and 5 instead 4 inbetween uses if you feel better then. But more would be too much for sure and i even think there isn't a cd increase needed at all.

Mantra of Pain is a different story.

@"Bazsi.2734" said:People see the problem well, but as always, your proposed solutions are awful. The problem is how spamming interrupts with the way mesmer is now has just too many synergies.

Also there are some in the Domination traitline but I didn't include them because they are fine imo. Here is how you could solve the mantraspam problem: put ICD-s on these traits I just linked, so brainlessly spamming all the interrupts you have access to will only grant diminishing returns.

That is more or less what i said, you are just coming from another direction. The overperforming traits (CI, Lost Time) are the problem, not the mantra itself. An Icd on Chaotic Interruption wouldn't be enough (better than the current situation ofc but it would still be problematic) because even with Icd an instant lock down should not exist. The immob needs to go. Make it chill instead or something and give that an Icd. Because stacked chill into perma chill would be very unfun to play against too although not as deadly.

@Nezekan.2671 I see what you're saying but I don't think it is necessarily true. The reason why something like a Spellbreaker is choosing not to run traits & utilities vs. condi barrage & CC is because it won't help. Spellbreaker had enough defenses vs. older Mirage builds yes, but this new build is pumping out quite seriously double the pressure in terms of condi + CCs. The rate in which Condi Mantra makes someone burn through stun breaks & resistance/condi cleanse is phenomenal. At that rate, it's just better to run DPS and heavy CC against it anyway. Kill it before it kills you. That kind of defines the entire meta we are in right now. Classes now pretty much take full DPS and only bring what defensive utilities are convenient to run without too much investment.

The Firebrand mantras are w/e in my opinion. They're support skills and it doesn't really annoy anyone that they have instant cast. In fact, it's probably important for those to have instant cast, to be able to compound enough support all at once, to do what you need to do for your team in pressure heavy situations. Instant attacks on the other hand, particularly CCs, begin creating effects that are unhealthy for the game. Instant offenses are not too far off from passive offenses, which Arenanet has been trying to eliminate due to how much complaint came over things like sigils of air/fire or trait that passively happen that deal large damage. Arenanet's idea, and apparently the community's idea as well, behind offensive play, is that it should require timing and have restraints/drawbacks towards what a player is choosing to use next or choose to not use at all. When skills are able to be spammed all at once with no drawback for using them as quickly & frequently as possible, it results in stale gameplay that often offers little to no counter play.

@bravan.3876

The mantra precast time is hardly a drawback. It rarely is used while in combat. People use mantra precasts when they are coming off of respawn or walking around a corner before engaging.

"Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra." lol what? That's like saying counter-offensive pressure is defensive. Yeah, sometimes a good offensive is the best defense, but it's still an offense to create the defense.

"In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable" In my opinion, when I die to Condi Mantra, it's definitely because someone is spammng double daze and every other CC they have on me.

Also, I love how you go out of your way to be respectful to everyone except me.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok one last time @Trevor Boyer.6524 :

To go into more detail of your duel post you used to claim that Mnatra of Distraction is the issue (what is objectively wrong):

Now see this is exactly where our problem in communication lies. You are 100% positive with no room for discussion, that your opinion is correct. But your opinion is simply an opinion in the same way that my opinion is an opinion. You have to respect this if you want respect yourself.

I would tell you that my opinion has no concern for the immob from CI, albeit annoying. My concern is that the frequent chain daze effects, which turns all my skills into a black bar cool down so that I can't use a condi cleanse to begin with or stun breaks for that matter, is where the problem begins and ultimately where it lies.

We can agree to disagree. You don't have to win every argument in every forum that you post in.

I like how you just ignore 99% of my post and only quote the conclusion i made over 20-30 sentences based on facts and logic. But that is how propaganda works.

Again already one mistake in this short last post of yours. You always can use a stunbreak when dazed, you can use all instant skills while dazed.

Why would I not ignore 99% of a narcissistic "I'm right and you're wrong" rant?

And you're wrong about always being able to use stun breaks. Lately the daze train will lock up my entire utility bar and all weapon skills. I don't know if this is a bug but it is happening. During a match earlier today, there were two Mantra Mirages in the match against me, and I almost recorded the match specifically to example how the daze is locking up even instant use skills. These two skills should not be being locked up during a Daze:
and
but for whatever reason it is happening and it seems to be happening often.

I'll try to get a good recording of it next time I'm in-game, as I'm sure right now you are 100% sure that you are correct and I am wrong. Brace yourself for it though, because I have caught and posted far stranger bugs than this, in this forum.

Since when a bug is a valid balance argument? You ignore my whole post for the sake of not admitting to facts and logic. That is fine, you are struggling ingame not me. Ignore every advice i gave you for the sake of being right and get the nerfs you want, no matter that they are stupid.

Uuuuh bugs concerning Mesmer mantras has definitely been a valid balance argument ever since season 1 bugged mantras that had no cool down.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Nezekan.2671 said:I have no sympathy for some classes making these complaints. The best example is most likely spellbreaker here, who DEFINITELY has the toolkit to deal with both condition damage and daze spam, but choose not to do it, to run their own barrage of CC and damage. Its a decision you made and if a build exists in meta that will punish you for making that decision, all the better.

Mirage always had these skills exactly the way they are now. So you might ask what changed? The meta did. People no longer run the tools necessary for dealing with build like this, but in previous metas, everyone had their condi cleanse and stability at the ready. We are at a burst meta, so you hardly see those anymore

As for Mantras not having casting, isn't that the same for Firebrand? Firebrand's heal and elite skill are very good as well, arguably better. How does Mesmer mantras suddenly become OP, when Firebrand is literally one of the best specs in the game.

Instant cast defenses are healthier competitively than instant cast offenses. That's why when people talk about how uncompetative Mantras are, they're not talking about the mesmer Heal, Cleanse, and Stunbreak mantras or the Guardian Healing and Elite mantras.

The cooldowns on the Firebrand mantras are also better handled. The ammo counts have moderately long 12 second cooldowns. And if you go through all of your mantra ammo, you suffer a longer 25s coodlown until you can recharge it to punish recklessly spamming it.

Compare mesmer's Mantra of Distraction which has a 25s recharge on the ammo, but if you double cast the mantra it only has a 12 cooldown on recharging the mantra and getting both charges back. So spamming it off cooldown ends up being rewarding on mesmer, getting more dazes, getting your dazes back quicker than if you waited for the ammo as well as rewarding you with cooldown recharges on the F3 daze, while it's punishing on Firebrand.

You can see it quite differently. With having higher recharge recovery a Mesmer is forced way more often into the very vulnerable time of fully recharging the mantra for 2.25 secs and can't rly do anything else during that. A light armor class like Mesmer also naturally doesn't have as much passive sustain to cover it, means the Mesmer most likely either needs to completely disengage out of the fight (what means even more downtime the mesmer is doing nothing) or he has to use other cds to cover it.

Fb gets rewarded by not being forced into the vulnerable time of fully recharging for 2,25 secs. Would be pretty hard in a teamfight when your team needs support but you are busy recharging mantras for over 2 secs, would be pretty unhandy for an on point def and support class.

If you give Mesmers Mantras the same low recharge inbetween uses and for that a higher cd when using all charges after another and 3 instead 2 ammo charges like the Fb mantras, then i even would call it a buff to Mesmers Mantras. A Fb can use his Mantras almost more often without the need of the 2,25 secs recharge than a Mesmer and with avoiding a highly vulnerable no impact downtime of a 2,25 secs recharge after all uses are gone. (to give a Guard an incentive to ever use the last charge Anet even needed to add a stronger last charge on the mantras otherwise you don't need to call them mantra when a Fb literally only recharge them one time in a match at matchstart and then has infinite uses with low cd and no recharge downtime).

Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra i doesn't have any dmg by its own. Only buffing it with traits gives it additional effects. In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable and (back to facts again:) without op traits like CI or Lost Time it doesn't even worth to be random spammed. I agree that the recharge from mantra on f3 could be a bit lower, no clue why they even added it, i guess it is to reward the Mesmer for having high opportunity costs from the need of recharing it for 2,25 secs. Make Mantra of Distraction cd 15 secs instead 12 for the recharge and 5 instead 4 inbetween uses if you feel better then. But more would be too much for sure and i even think there isn't a cd increase needed at all.

Mantra of Pain is a different story.

@"Bazsi.2734" said:People see the problem well, but as always, your proposed solutions are awful. The problem is how spamming interrupts with the way mesmer is now has just too many synergies.

Also there are some in the Domination traitline but I didn't include them because they are fine imo. Here is how you could solve the mantraspam problem: put ICD-s on these traits I just linked, so brainlessly spamming all the interrupts you have access to will only grant diminishing returns.

That is more or less what i said, you are just coming from another direction. The overperforming traits (CI, Lost Time) are the problem, not the mantra itself. An Icd on Chaotic Interruption wouldn't be enough (better than the current situation ofc but it would still be problematic) because even with Icd an instant lock down should not exist. The immob needs to go. Make it chill instead or something and give that an Icd. Because stacked chill into perma chill would be very unfun to play against too although not as deadly.

@Nezekan.2671 I see what you're saying but I don't think it is necessarily true. The reason why something like a Spellbreaker is choosing not to run traits & utilities vs. condi barrage & CC is because it won't help. Spellbreaker had enough defenses vs. older Mirage builds yes, but this new build is pumping out quite seriously double the pressure in terms of condi + CCs. The rate in which Condi Mantra makes someone burn through stun breaks & resistance/condi cleanse is phenomenal. At that rate, it's just better to run DPS and heavy CC against it anyway. Kill it before it kills you. That kind of defines the entire meta we are in right now. Classes now pretty much take full DPS and only bring what defensive utilities are convenient to run without too much investment.

The Firebrand mantras are w/e in my opinion. They're support skills and it doesn't really annoy anyone that they have instant cast. In fact, it's probably important for those to have instant cast, to be able to compound enough support all at once, to do what you need to do for your team in pressure heavy situations. Instant attacks on the other hand, particularly CCs, begin creating effects that are unhealthy for the game. Instant offenses are not too far off from passive offenses, which Arenanet has been trying to eliminate due to how much complaint came over things like sigils of air/fire or trait that passively happen that deal large damage. Arenanet's idea, and apparently the community's idea as well, behind offensive play, is that it should require timing and have restraints/drawbacks towards what a player is choosing to use next or choose to not use at all. When skills are able to be spammed all at once with no drawback for using them as quickly & frequently as possible, it results in stale gameplay that often offers little to no counter play.

The mantra precast time is hardly a drawback. It rarely is used while in combat. People use mantra precasts when they are coming off of respawn or walking around a corner before engaging.

"Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra." lol what? That's like saying counter-offensive pressure is defensive. Yeah, sometimes a good offensive is the best defense, but it's still an offense to create the defense.

"In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable" In my opinion, when I die to Condi Mantra, it's definitely because someone is spammng double daze and every other CC they have on me.

Also, I love how you go out of your way to be respectful to everyone except me.

I am not arguing with you anymore, consider yourself to be right and have the last word. That is the conclusion from discussions with you anyway, even though i once again can't agree to anything you said. I am not disrespectul to you, i just explain why your assumtions and suggestions are ovjectively wrong. There is no disrespect into this. That i don't talk to you anymore is also not meant as disrespect it is just the logical way of dealing with senseless discussions. The moment you have an idea i would consider good and not just stubborn nerf cry i will talk to you the same way than with other ppl being more constructive than you.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Nezekan.2671 said:I have no sympathy for some classes making these complaints. The best example is most likely spellbreaker here, who DEFINITELY has the toolkit to deal with both condition damage and daze spam, but choose not to do it, to run their own barrage of CC and damage. Its a decision you made and if a build exists in meta that will punish you for making that decision, all the better.

Mirage always had these skills exactly the way they are now. So you might ask what changed? The meta did. People no longer run the tools necessary for dealing with build like this, but in previous metas, everyone had their condi cleanse and stability at the ready. We are at a burst meta, so you hardly see those anymore

As for Mantras not having casting, isn't that the same for Firebrand? Firebrand's heal and elite skill are very good as well, arguably better. How does Mesmer mantras suddenly become OP, when Firebrand is literally one of the best specs in the game.

Instant cast defenses are healthier competitively than instant cast offenses. That's why when people talk about how uncompetative Mantras are, they're not talking about the mesmer Heal, Cleanse, and Stunbreak mantras or the Guardian Healing and Elite mantras.

The cooldowns on the Firebrand mantras are also better handled. The ammo counts have moderately long 12 second cooldowns. And if you go through all of your mantra ammo, you suffer a longer 25s coodlown until you can recharge it to punish recklessly spamming it.

Compare mesmer's Mantra of Distraction which has a 25s recharge on the ammo, but if you double cast the mantra it only has a 12 cooldown on recharging the mantra and getting both charges back. So spamming it off cooldown ends up being rewarding on mesmer, getting more dazes, getting your dazes back quicker than if you waited for the ammo as well as rewarding you with cooldown recharges on the F3 daze, while it's punishing on Firebrand.

You can see it quite differently. With having higher recharge recovery a Mesmer is forced way more often into the very vulnerable time of fully recharging the mantra for 2.25 secs and can't rly do anything else during that. A light armor class like Mesmer also naturally doesn't have as much passive sustain to cover it, means the Mesmer most likely either needs to completely disengage out of the fight (what means even more downtime the mesmer is doing nothing) or he has to use other cds to cover it.

Fb gets rewarded by not being forced into the vulnerable time of fully recharging for 2,25 secs. Would be pretty hard in a teamfight when your team needs support but you are busy recharging mantras for over 2 secs, would be pretty unhandy for an on point def and support class.

If you give Mesmers Mantras the same low recharge inbetween uses and for that a higher cd when using all charges after another and 3 instead 2 ammo charges like the Fb mantras, then i even would call it a buff to Mesmers Mantras. A Fb can use his Mantras almost more often without the need of the 2,25 secs recharge than a Mesmer and with avoiding a highly vulnerable no impact downtime of a 2,25 secs recharge after all uses are gone. (to give a Guard an incentive to ever use the last charge Anet even needed to add a stronger last charge on the mantras otherwise you don't need to call them mantra when a Fb literally only recharge them one time in a match at matchstart and then has infinite uses with low cd and no recharge downtime).

Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra i doesn't have any dmg by its own. Only buffing it with traits gives it additional effects. In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable and (back to facts again:) without op traits like CI or Lost Time it doesn't even worth to be random spammed. I agree that the recharge from mantra on f3 could be a bit lower, no clue why they even added it, i guess it is to reward the Mesmer for having high opportunity costs from the need of recharing it for 2,25 secs. Make Mantra of Distraction cd 15 secs instead 12 for the recharge and 5 instead 4 inbetween uses if you feel better then. But more would be too much for sure and i even think there isn't a cd increase needed at all.

Mantra of Pain is a different story.

@"Bazsi.2734" said:People see the problem well, but as always, your proposed solutions are awful. The problem is how spamming interrupts with the way mesmer is now has just too many synergies.

Also there are some in the Domination traitline but I didn't include them because they are fine imo. Here is how you could solve the mantraspam problem: put ICD-s on these traits I just linked, so brainlessly spamming all the interrupts you have access to will only grant diminishing returns.

That is more or less what i said, you are just coming from another direction. The overperforming traits (CI, Lost Time) are the problem, not the mantra itself. An Icd on Chaotic Interruption wouldn't be enough (better than the current situation ofc but it would still be problematic) because even with Icd an instant lock down should not exist. The immob needs to go. Make it chill instead or something and give that an Icd. Because stacked chill into perma chill would be very unfun to play against too although not as deadly.

@Nezekan.2671 I see what you're saying but I don't think it is necessarily true. The reason why something like a Spellbreaker is choosing not to run traits & utilities vs. condi barrage & CC is because it won't help. Spellbreaker had enough defenses vs. older Mirage builds yes, but this new build is pumping out quite seriously double the pressure in terms of condi + CCs. The rate in which Condi Mantra makes someone burn through stun breaks & resistance/condi cleanse is phenomenal. At that rate, it's just better to run DPS and heavy CC against it anyway. Kill it before it kills you. That kind of defines the entire meta we are in right now. Classes now pretty much take full DPS and only bring what defensive utilities are convenient to run without too much investment.

The Firebrand mantras are w/e in my opinion. They're support skills and it doesn't really annoy anyone that they have instant cast. In fact, it's probably important for those to have instant cast, to be able to compound enough support all at once, to do what you need to do for your team in pressure heavy situations. Instant attacks on the other hand, particularly CCs, begin creating effects that are unhealthy for the game. Instant offenses are not too far off from passive offenses, which Arenanet has been trying to eliminate due to how much complaint came over things like sigils of air/fire or trait that passively happen that deal large damage. Arenanet's idea, and apparently the community's idea as well, behind offensive play, is that it should require timing and have restraints/drawbacks towards what a player is choosing to use next or choose to not use at all. When skills are able to be spammed all at once with no drawback for using them as quickly & frequently as possible, it results in stale gameplay that often offers little to no counter play.

The mantra precast time is hardly a drawback. It rarely is used while in combat. People use mantra precasts when they are coming off of respawn or walking around a corner before engaging.

"Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra." lol what? That's like saying counter-offensive pressure is defensive. Yeah, sometimes a good offensive is the best defense, but it's still an offense to create the defense.

"In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable" In my opinion, when I die to Condi Mantra, it's definitely because someone is spammng double daze and every other CC they have on me.

Also, I love how you go out of your way to be respectful to everyone except me.

I am not arguing with you anymore, consider yourself to be right and have the last word. That is the conclusion from discussions with you anyway, even though i once again can't agree to anything you said. I am not disrespectul to you, i just explain why your assumtions and suggestions are ovjectively wrong. There is no disrespect into this. That i don't talk to you anymore is also not meant as disrespect it is just the logical way of dealing with senseless discussions. The moment you have an idea i would consider good and not just stubborn nerf cry i will talk to you the same way than with other ppl being more constructive than you.

I said almost the same exact thing as Mortrialus, about mantra instant casting. However, you tossed insults at me for it, but were having a nice discussion with him. Can you explain yourself as to why you chose to do that?

That makes it confusing for readers to see where you really stand on the topic. Are you super against it with aggression to argue about it, or are you accepting and open to discussion about mantra instant casting?

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Nezekan.2671 said:I have no sympathy for some classes making these complaints. The best example is most likely spellbreaker here, who DEFINITELY has the toolkit to deal with both condition damage and daze spam, but choose not to do it, to run their own barrage of CC and damage. Its a decision you made and if a build exists in meta that will punish you for making that decision, all the better.

Mirage always had these skills exactly the way they are now. So you might ask what changed? The meta did. People no longer run the tools necessary for dealing with build like this, but in previous metas, everyone had their condi cleanse and stability at the ready. We are at a burst meta, so you hardly see those anymore

As for Mantras not having casting, isn't that the same for Firebrand? Firebrand's heal and elite skill are very good as well, arguably better. How does Mesmer mantras suddenly become OP, when Firebrand is literally one of the best specs in the game.

Instant cast defenses are healthier competitively than instant cast offenses. That's why when people talk about how uncompetative Mantras are, they're not talking about the mesmer Heal, Cleanse, and Stunbreak mantras or the Guardian Healing and Elite mantras.

The cooldowns on the Firebrand mantras are also better handled. The ammo counts have moderately long 12 second cooldowns. And if you go through all of your mantra ammo, you suffer a longer 25s coodlown until you can recharge it to punish recklessly spamming it.

Compare mesmer's Mantra of Distraction which has a 25s recharge on the ammo, but if you double cast the mantra it only has a 12 cooldown on recharging the mantra and getting both charges back. So spamming it off cooldown ends up being rewarding on mesmer, getting more dazes, getting your dazes back quicker than if you waited for the ammo as well as rewarding you with cooldown recharges on the F3 daze, while it's punishing on Firebrand.

You can see it quite differently. With having higher recharge recovery a Mesmer is forced way more often into the very vulnerable time of fully recharging the mantra for 2.25 secs and can't rly do anything else during that. A light armor class like Mesmer also naturally doesn't have as much passive sustain to cover it, means the Mesmer most likely either needs to completely disengage out of the fight (what means even more downtime the mesmer is doing nothing) or he has to use other cds to cover it.

Fb gets rewarded by not being forced into the vulnerable time of fully recharging for 2,25 secs. Would be pretty hard in a teamfight when your team needs support but you are busy recharging mantras for over 2 secs, would be pretty unhandy for an on point def and support class.

If you give Mesmers Mantras the same low recharge inbetween uses and for that a higher cd when using all charges after another and 3 instead 2 ammo charges like the Fb mantras, then i even would call it a buff to Mesmers Mantras. A Fb can use his Mantras almost more often without the need of the 2,25 secs recharge than a Mesmer and with avoiding a highly vulnerable no impact downtime of a 2,25 secs recharge after all uses are gone. (to give a Guard an incentive to ever use the last charge Anet even needed to add a stronger last charge on the mantras otherwise you don't need to call them mantra when a Fb literally only recharge them one time in a match at matchstart and then has infinite uses with low cd and no recharge downtime).

Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra i doesn't have any dmg by its own. Only buffing it with traits gives it additional effects. In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable and (back to facts again:) without op traits like CI or Lost Time it doesn't even worth to be random spammed. I agree that the recharge from mantra on f3 could be a bit lower, no clue why they even added it, i guess it is to reward the Mesmer for having high opportunity costs from the need of recharing it for 2,25 secs. Make Mantra of Distraction cd 15 secs instead 12 for the recharge and 5 instead 4 inbetween uses if you feel better then. But more would be too much for sure and i even think there isn't a cd increase needed at all.

Mantra of Pain is a different story.

@"Bazsi.2734" said:People see the problem well, but as always, your proposed solutions are awful. The problem is how spamming interrupts with the way mesmer is now has just too many synergies.

Also there are some in the Domination traitline but I didn't include them because they are fine imo. Here is how you could solve the mantraspam problem: put ICD-s on these traits I just linked, so brainlessly spamming all the interrupts you have access to will only grant diminishing returns.

That is more or less what i said, you are just coming from another direction. The overperforming traits (CI, Lost Time) are the problem, not the mantra itself. An Icd on Chaotic Interruption wouldn't be enough (better than the current situation ofc but it would still be problematic) because even with Icd an instant lock down should not exist. The immob needs to go. Make it chill instead or something and give that an Icd. Because stacked chill into perma chill would be very unfun to play against too although not as deadly.

@Nezekan.2671 I see what you're saying but I don't think it is necessarily true. The reason why something like a Spellbreaker is choosing not to run traits & utilities vs. condi barrage & CC is because it won't help. Spellbreaker had enough defenses vs. older Mirage builds yes, but this new build is pumping out quite seriously double the pressure in terms of condi + CCs. The rate in which Condi Mantra makes someone burn through stun breaks & resistance/condi cleanse is phenomenal. At that rate, it's just better to run DPS and heavy CC against it anyway. Kill it before it kills you. That kind of defines the entire meta we are in right now. Classes now pretty much take full DPS and only bring what defensive utilities are convenient to run without too much investment.

I think Defense Spellbreaker stalls it out just fine. Between double Balanced Stance and the ability to chain 28 seconds of resistance back to back they're really well equipped to just get the node. And even if the mirage steals one stack of resistance they can't steal them all.

I actually have started to see Defense Spellbreakers for the first time in about a year now and I'm pretty sure it's just because of Chaotic Interrupt.

But since nothing else aside from Necromancers are ever running condition damage, and no other side noder especially is running condition damage, it ends up being over specializing your match up against one build you're going to 1v1 against literally all others.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Nezekan.2671 said:I have no sympathy for some classes making these complaints. The best example is most likely spellbreaker here, who DEFINITELY has the toolkit to deal with both condition damage and daze spam, but choose not to do it, to run their own barrage of CC and damage. Its a decision you made and if a build exists in meta that will punish you for making that decision, all the better.

Mirage always had these skills exactly the way they are now. So you might ask what changed? The meta did. People no longer run the tools necessary for dealing with build like this, but in previous metas, everyone had their condi cleanse and stability at the ready. We are at a burst meta, so you hardly see those anymore

As for Mantras not having casting, isn't that the same for Firebrand? Firebrand's heal and elite skill are very good as well, arguably better. How does Mesmer mantras suddenly become OP, when Firebrand is literally one of the best specs in the game.

Instant cast defenses are healthier competitively than instant cast offenses. That's why when people talk about how uncompetative Mantras are, they're not talking about the mesmer Heal, Cleanse, and Stunbreak mantras or the Guardian Healing and Elite mantras.

The cooldowns on the Firebrand mantras are also better handled. The ammo counts have moderately long 12 second cooldowns. And if you go through all of your mantra ammo, you suffer a longer 25s coodlown until you can recharge it to punish recklessly spamming it.

Compare mesmer's Mantra of Distraction which has a 25s recharge on the ammo, but if you double cast the mantra it only has a 12 cooldown on recharging the mantra and getting both charges back. So spamming it off cooldown ends up being rewarding on mesmer, getting more dazes, getting your dazes back quicker than if you waited for the ammo as well as rewarding you with cooldown recharges on the F3 daze, while it's punishing on Firebrand.

You can see it quite differently. With having higher recharge recovery a Mesmer is forced way more often into the very vulnerable time of fully recharging the mantra for 2.25 secs and can't rly do anything else during that. A light armor class like Mesmer also naturally doesn't have as much passive sustain to cover it, means the Mesmer most likely either needs to completely disengage out of the fight (what means even more downtime the mesmer is doing nothing) or he has to use other cds to cover it.

Fb gets rewarded by not being forced into the vulnerable time of fully recharging for 2,25 secs. Would be pretty hard in a teamfight when your team needs support but you are busy recharging mantras for over 2 secs, would be pretty unhandy for an on point def and support class.

If you give Mesmers Mantras the same low recharge inbetween uses and for that a higher cd when using all charges after another and 3 instead 2 ammo charges like the Fb mantras, then i even would call it a buff to Mesmers Mantras. A Fb can use his Mantras almost more often without the need of the 2,25 secs recharge than a Mesmer and with avoiding a highly vulnerable no impact downtime of a 2,25 secs recharge after all uses are gone. (to give a Guard an incentive to ever use the last charge Anet even needed to add a stronger last charge on the mantras otherwise you don't need to call them mantra when a Fb literally only recharge them one time in a match at matchstart and then has infinite uses with low cd and no recharge downtime).

Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra i doesn't have any dmg by its own. Only buffing it with traits gives it additional effects. In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable and (back to facts again:) without op traits like CI or Lost Time it doesn't even worth to be random spammed. I agree that the recharge from mantra on f3 could be a bit lower, no clue why they even added it, i guess it is to reward the Mesmer for having high opportunity costs from the need of recharing it for 2,25 secs. Make Mantra of Distraction cd 15 secs instead 12 for the recharge and 5 instead 4 inbetween uses if you feel better then. But more would be too much for sure and i even think there isn't a cd increase needed at all.

Mantra of Pain is a different story.

@"Bazsi.2734" said:People see the problem well, but as always, your proposed solutions are awful. The problem is how spamming interrupts with the way mesmer is now has just too many synergies.

Also there are some in the Domination traitline but I didn't include them because they are fine imo. Here is how you could solve the mantraspam problem: put ICD-s on these traits I just linked, so brainlessly spamming all the interrupts you have access to will only grant diminishing returns.

That is more or less what i said, you are just coming from another direction. The overperforming traits (CI, Lost Time) are the problem, not the mantra itself. An Icd on Chaotic Interruption wouldn't be enough (better than the current situation ofc but it would still be problematic) because even with Icd an instant lock down should not exist. The immob needs to go. Make it chill instead or something and give that an Icd. Because stacked chill into perma chill would be very unfun to play against too although not as deadly.

@Nezekan.2671 I see what you're saying but I don't think it is necessarily true. The reason why something like a Spellbreaker is choosing not to run traits & utilities vs. condi barrage & CC is because it won't help. Spellbreaker had enough defenses vs. older Mirage builds yes, but this new build is pumping out quite seriously double the pressure in terms of condi + CCs. The rate in which Condi Mantra makes someone burn through stun breaks & resistance/condi cleanse is phenomenal. At that rate, it's just better to run DPS and heavy CC against it anyway. Kill it before it kills you. That kind of defines the entire meta we are in right now. Classes now pretty much take full DPS and only bring what defensive utilities are convenient to run without too much investment.

The Firebrand mantras are w/e in my opinion. They're support skills and it doesn't really annoy anyone that they have instant cast. In fact, it's probably important for those to have instant cast, to be able to compound enough support all at once, to do what you need to do for your team in pressure heavy situations. Instant attacks on the other hand, particularly CCs, begin creating effects that are unhealthy for the game. Instant offenses are not too far off from passive offenses, which Arenanet has been trying to eliminate due to how much complaint came over things like sigils of air/fire or trait that passively happen that deal large damage. Arenanet's idea, and apparently the community's idea as well, behind offensive play, is that it should require timing and have restraints/drawbacks towards what a player is choosing to use next or choose to not use at all. When skills are able to be spammed all at once with no drawback for using them as quickly & frequently as possible, it results in stale gameplay that often offers little to no counter play.

The mantra precast time is hardly a drawback. It rarely is used while in combat. People use mantra precasts when they are coming off of respawn or walking around a corner before engaging.

"Also Mantra of Distraction is a defensive Mantra." lol what? That's like saying counter-offensive pressure is defensive. Yeah, sometimes a good offensive is the best defense, but it's still an offense to create the defense.

"In my opinion Mantra of Distraction is far away from spammable" In my opinion, when I die to Condi Mantra, it's definitely because someone is spammng double daze and every other CC they have on me.

Also, I love how you go out of your way to be respectful to everyone except me.

I am not arguing with you anymore, consider yourself to be right and have the last word. That is the conclusion from discussions with you anyway, even though i once again can't agree to anything you said. I am not disrespectul to you, i just explain why your assumtions and suggestions are ovjectively wrong. There is no disrespect into this. That i don't talk to you anymore is also not meant as disrespect it is just the logical way of dealing with senseless discussions. The moment you have an idea i would consider good and not just stubborn nerf cry i will talk to you the same way than with other ppl being more constructive than you.

I said almost the same exact thing as Mortrialus, about mantra instant casting. However, you tossed insults at me for it, but were having a nice discussion with him. Can you explain yourself as to why you chose to do that?

That makes it confusing for readers to see where you really stand on the topic. Are you super against it with aggression to argue about it, or are you accepting and open to discussion about mantra instant casting?

I cannot see that i am more respectful to him than to you tbh. No clue what to say to that.

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@"Nezekan.2671" said:Yes its been 7 years of complaints.

I can't listen to them anymore, same complaints even after the class is overnerfed to the ground. Its starting to feel like noise.

Mom, why can't I execute my regular combo that works on every other class? Clones OP. PLZ nerf

Its baffling to see more threads and complaints about Memsers when the meta is completely controlled by Firebrand, Scourge, Herald and Spellbreaker. In fact a Firebrand hugging a scourge will make this Mesmer build completely useless in teamfights. Spellbreaker can slot in utilities to completely counter this build. Reaver can mass cleave your clones instantly and jump you.

Don't even get me started on Scrapper.

I can see how other classes would struggle against this, but given how they are not meta, its not really hurting the state of the game. As I said, I have no sympathy for people who play the specs I mentioned and complain about this Mirage build. They are a much bigger problem to the state of the game.I love how you completely missed out holosmith that is a huge part of the meta and can handle chaos mirage himself . Boyce confirmed that holo can do that as well.This all clueless masses (in the lead of another clueless biased rangermain thinking his assumptions are right xd) complain about it and cry for the nerf in wrong places which led only to be from massive build diversity to only 1 build from the meme category of the past and all builds died out as class was basically destroyed with nerfs.And spellbreaker doesnt slot this skills because meta battle is everything to them and they dont want to lose out this evade spam that does unbloclab;e damage, ez sustain through generating tons of might and two-shot other people with absolutely braindead "rampage".Lets talk about scrapper... do you remember as everyone say JUST BRING YOUR RAMPAGE WAR HE WILL 1x1 SCRAPPER ? The only one class that being able to kill it after a while and its fine, the only one.... otherwise you have to bring a warrior + revenant or better two revenants to take him down. But when you can use the same scrapper or specially slotted resistance/stability warrior ITS UNACCEPTABLE !111 it must die rom any class from any fart he does ! Hypocrisy in all its beauty

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Nezekan.2671" said:Yes its been 7 years of complaints.

I can't listen to them anymore, same complaints even after the class is overnerfed to the ground. Its starting to feel like noise.

Mom, why can't I execute my regular combo that works on every other class? Clones OP. PLZ nerf

Its baffling to see more threads and complaints about Memsers when the meta is completely controlled by Firebrand, Scourge, Herald and Spellbreaker. In fact a Firebrand hugging a scourge will make this Mesmer build completely useless in teamfights. Spellbreaker can slot in utilities to completely counter this build. Reaver can mass cleave your clones instantly and jump you.

Don't even get me started on Scrapper.

I can see how other classes would struggle against this, but given how they are not meta, its not really hurting the state of the game. As I said, I have no sympathy for people who play the specs I mentioned and complain about this Mirage build. They are a much bigger problem to the state of the game.I love how you completely missed out holosmith that is a huge part of the meta and can handle chaos mirage himself . Boyce confirmed that holo can do that as well.This all clueless masses (in the lead of another clueless biased rangermain thinking his assumptions are right xd) complain about it and cry for the nerf in wrong places which led only to be from massive build diversity to only 1 build from the meme category of the past and all builds died out as class was basically destroyed with nerfs.And spellbreaker doesnt slot this skills because meta battle is everything to them and they dont want to lose out this evade spam that does unbloclab;e damage, ez sustain through generating tons of might and two-shot other people with absolutely braindead "rampage".Lets talk about scrapper... do you remember as everyone say JUST BRING YOUR RAMPAGE WAR HE WILL 1x1 SCRAPPER ? The only one class that being able to kill it after a while and its fine, the only one.... otherwise you have to bring a warrior + revenant or better two revenants to take him down. But when you can use the same scrapper or specially slotted resistance/stability warrior ITS UNACCEPTABLE !111 it must die rom any class from any fart he does ! Hypocrisy in all its beauty

Holo is a special case. Because its an answer to the meta of Firebrand Scourge winning middle node with ease, so you get strong sidenoders. But that's the only thing you can expect from a Holo. One corruption tick, just like any boon class, will completely screw over Holo and make their existence a pain. So what Holo should be doing is completely focusing on sidenodes, but then they problem is Holo can't outrotate thief.

But you can't really expect that level of teamwork in solo que. Which is why Holo is strong. Its jack of all trades. It has decent sustain, good damage and nice CC and mobility. But it doesn't have the best of anything. A Firebrand has more stability and Aegis than Holo has cc, Thief has more mobility, Reaver has more damage and so on. And more importantly CI Mesmer can easily counter Holo in its tracks. Its very easy to interrupt holo because their animations are very obvious.

So no. I didn't mention Holo because the classes I mentioned not only fully counter CI Mesmer, but they are also at the top of meta. Holo is countered by CI mesmer and doesn't have the impact the other 4 classes have (Firebrand, Scourge, Spellbreaker and Reaver)

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@Nezekan.2671 said:

@Nezekan.2671 said:Yes its been 7 years of complaints.

I can't listen to them anymore, same complaints even after the class is overnerfed to the ground. Its starting to feel like noise.

Mom, why can't I execute my regular combo that works on every other class? Clones OP. PLZ nerf

Its baffling to see more threads and complaints about Memsers when the meta is completely controlled by Firebrand, Scourge, Herald and Spellbreaker. In fact a Firebrand hugging a scourge will make this Mesmer build completely useless in teamfights. Spellbreaker can slot in utilities to completely counter this build. Reaver can mass cleave your clones instantly and jump you.

Don't even get me started on Scrapper.

I can see how other classes would struggle against this, but given how they are not meta, its not really hurting the state of the game. As I said, I have no sympathy for people who play the specs I mentioned and complain about this Mirage build. They are a much bigger problem to the state of the game.I love how you completely missed out holosmith that is a huge part of the meta and can handle chaos mirage himself . Boyce confirmed that holo can do that as well.This all clueless masses (in the lead of another clueless biased rangermain thinking his assumptions are right xd) complain about it and cry for the nerf in wrong places which led only to be from massive build diversity to only 1 build from the meme category of the past and all builds died out as class was basically destroyed with nerfs.And spellbreaker doesnt slot this skills because meta battle is everything to them and they dont want to lose out this evade spam that does unbloclab;e damage, ez sustain through generating tons of might and two-shot other people with absolutely braindead "rampage".Lets talk about scrapper... do you remember as everyone say JUST BRING YOUR RAMPAGE WAR HE WILL 1x1 SCRAPPER ? The only one class that being able to kill it after a while and its fine, the only one.... otherwise you have to bring a warrior + revenant or better two revenants to take him down. But when you can use the same scrapper or specially slotted resistance/stability warrior ITS UNACCEPTABLE !111 it must die rom any class from any fart he does ! Hypocrisy in all its beauty

Holo is a special case. Because its an answer to the meta of Firebrand Scourge winning middle node with ease, so you get strong sidenoders. But that's the only thing you can expect from a Holo. One corruption tick, just like any boon class, will completely screw over Holo and make their existence a pain. So what Holo should be doing is completely focusing on sidenodes, but then they problem is Holo can't outrotate thief.

But you can't really expect that level of teamwork in solo que. Which is why Holo is strong. Its jack of all trades. It has decent sustain, good damage and nice CC and mobility. But it doesn't have the best of anything. A Firebrand has more stability and Aegis than Holo has cc, Thief has more mobility, Reaver has more damage and so on. And more importantly CI Mesmer can easily counter Holo in its tracks. Its very easy to interrupt holo because their animations are very obvious.

So no. I didn't mention Holo because the classes I mentioned not only fully counter CI Mesmer, but they are also at the top of meta. Holo is countered by CI mesmer and doesn't have the impact the other 4 classes have (Firebrand, Scourge, Spellbreaker and Reaver)Ye, invasion of holosmiths in monthly AT was just a coincidence and nothing but bad players.Hardcountered by ci...? with their amount of stability that can proc perma off clones ye, super hardcountered, good one. Also who is Boyce right? A random noname.Reaver... is it a scourge? Anyway I'm tired asf and cba to argue. In short - someone make CI burn, thanks.
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@Nezekan.2671 said:I have no sympathy for some classes making these complaints. The best example is most likely spellbreaker here, who DEFINITELY has the toolkit to deal with both condition damage and daze spam, but choose not to do it, to run their own barrage of CC and damage. Its a decision you made and if a build exists in meta that will punish you for making that decision, all the better.

True enough. Your build should not be able to beat everything. Warrior in general has the kit to deal with daze spam and the disengage to reset a tired staff mirage.Zerker and defiant stance flips certain mirages builds on their heads now that their passives are shaved if they aren't playing properly, I have no doubt spellbreaker would be even worse.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@Nezekan.2671 said:Yes its been 7 years of complaints.

I can't listen to them anymore, same complaints even after the class is overnerfed to the ground. Its starting to feel like noise.

Mom, why can't I execute my regular combo that works on every other class? Clones OP. PLZ nerf

Its baffling to see more threads and complaints about Memsers when the meta is completely controlled by Firebrand, Scourge, Herald and Spellbreaker. In fact a Firebrand hugging a scourge will make this Mesmer build completely useless in teamfights. Spellbreaker can slot in utilities to completely counter this build. Reaver can mass cleave your clones instantly and jump you.

Don't even get me started on Scrapper.

I can see how other classes would struggle against this, but given how they are not meta, its not really hurting the state of the game. As I said, I have no sympathy for people who play the specs I mentioned and complain about this Mirage build. They are a much bigger problem to the state of the game.I love how you completely missed out holosmith that is a huge part of the meta and can handle chaos mirage himself . Boyce confirmed that holo can do that as well.This all clueless masses (in the lead of another clueless biased rangermain thinking his assumptions are right xd) complain about it and cry for the nerf in wrong places which led only to be from massive build diversity to only 1 build from the meme category of the past and all builds died out as class was basically destroyed with nerfs.And spellbreaker doesnt slot this skills because meta battle is everything to them and they dont want to lose out this evade spam that does unbloclab;e damage, ez sustain through generating tons of might and two-shot other people with absolutely braindead "rampage".Lets talk about scrapper... do you remember as everyone say JUST BRING YOUR RAMPAGE WAR HE WILL 1x1 SCRAPPER ? The only one class that being able to kill it after a while and its fine, the only one.... otherwise you have to bring a warrior + revenant or better two revenants to take him down. But when you can use the same scrapper or specially slotted resistance/stability warrior ITS UNACCEPTABLE !111 it must die rom any class from any fart he does ! Hypocrisy in all its beauty

Holo is a special case. Because its an answer to the meta of Firebrand Scourge winning middle node with ease, so you get strong sidenoders. But that's the only thing you can expect from a Holo. One corruption tick, just like any boon class, will completely screw over Holo and make their existence a pain. So what Holo should be doing is completely focusing on sidenodes, but then they problem is Holo can't outrotate thief.

But you can't really expect that level of teamwork in solo que. Which is why Holo is strong. Its jack of all trades. It has decent sustain, good damage and nice CC and mobility. But it doesn't have the best of anything. A Firebrand has more stability and Aegis than Holo has cc, Thief has more mobility, Reaver has more damage and so on. And more importantly CI Mesmer can easily counter Holo in its tracks. Its very easy to interrupt holo because their animations are very obvious.

So no. I didn't mention Holo because the classes I mentioned not only fully counter CI Mesmer, but they are also at the top of meta. Holo is countered by CI mesmer and doesn't have the impact the other 4 classes have (Firebrand, Scourge, Spellbreaker and Reaver)Ye, invasion of holosmiths in monthly AT was just a coincidence and nothing but bad players.Hardcountered by ci...? with their amount of stability that can proc perma off clones ye, super hardcountered, good one. Also who is Boyce right? A random noname.Reaver... is it a scourge? Anyway I'm tired asf and cba to argue. In short - someone make CI burn, thanks.

So you are going to mention tournaments? Look ar 2v2 tournaments. I wouldn't be wrong if I say 90% of them were Firebrand and Scourge.

Boyce is playing solo que. Read my post about what I said about solo que. If that is your argument, Watch Vallun and how he completely wrecks all Holos, (including Boyce) as a thief by absolutely outrotating them.

There is something called Arcane Thievery. You can sync it up with pistol 5 to guarantee a stun, and then send a barrage of interrupts. 4 from your shatter. Holo has some stability, but CI mesmer has more CC. And condition cleanse of Holo is very lacking. Even with perfect management of cooldowns, Mesmer with 3 clones, using ambish attack with infinite Horizon will overwhelm you with condis. And don't even get me started on confuse, as Holos activite more skills than most classes, thus are easier to interrupt, more vulnerable to confuse and their rotation makes them move around a lot as well, hence torment. I don't know where you got Holo countering CI from. Its ludicrous

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