Final nail in the coffin - No WvW updates

[L A T I O N.8923]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etterwyn.5263 said:This is the way the game endsThis is the way the game endsThis is the way the game ends

Not with a bang but with a whimper.

Yeah, like all 5 people that play WvW leave and the game ends. SHURE!!

You guys need to get a reality check. WvW isn't as important to the longevity of this game as you want to think. Sure, WvW players would leave at this continued rate. That would simply mean Anet could focus on developing the parts of this game that don't drag it down.

Wow... I don’t really think you could be more smug. And people call raiders and sPvPers elitist.

Nothing smug about it. If WvW isn't generating enough revenue and it's not a loss leader, then it should go away so they can focus on what is working for them. That's how business works.

Why do you think car makers are dumping sedans for SUV and crossovers? It's no different.

There's no WvW only gemstore, we buy and farm the same kitten as everyone else,.

That doesn't matter. I can assure you, Anet can measure who is playing what mode, for how long and how much they are spending. if WvW players are not the majority of the revenue, WvW won't be the majority of the investment. The decision on what to focus development on is a business one, not an emotional one.

I mean yeah you right, the AVG WvW player doesn't buy alot from the gemstore...compared to the pve dudeBut most people i know on WvW have at least 2 accounts...

[kash.9213]

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etterwyn.5263 said:This is the way the game endsThis is the way the game endsThis is the way the game ends

Not with a bang but with a whimper.

Yeah, like all 5 people that play WvW leave and the game ends. SHURE!!

You guys need to get a reality check. WvW isn't as important to the longevity of this game as you want to think. Sure, WvW players would leave at this continued rate. That would simply mean Anet could focus on developing the parts of this game that don't drag it down.

Wow... I don’t really think you could be more smug. And people call raiders and sPvPers elitist.

Nothing smug about it. If WvW isn't generating enough revenue and it's not a loss leader, then it should go away so they can focus on what is working for them. That's how business works.

Why do you think car makers are dumping sedans for SUV and crossovers? It's no different.

There's no WvW only gemstore, we buy and farm the same kitten as everyone else,.

That doesn't matter. I can assure you, Anet can measure who is playing what mode, for how long and how much they are spending. if WvW players are not the majority of the revenue, WvW won't be the majority of the investment. The decision on what to focus development on is a business one, not an emotional one.

I mean yeah you right, the AVG WvW player doesn't buy alot from the gemstore...compared to the pve dudeBut most people i know on WvW have at least 2 accounts...

Spend time looking around at everyone you're playing with in WvW. WvW players spend money pretty much no differently than anyone else, most of the people in your squad are going to be decked out in everything a pve player has. Those players had to take time away from WvW to get anything half decent, that's time away from their mode, that's the measuring that poster keeps harping on that doesn't mean anything, but a dry tone and doubling down on being wrong somehow feels right to them.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etterwyn.5263 said:This is the way the game endsThis is the way the game endsThis is the way the game ends

Not with a bang but with a whimper.

Yeah, like all 5 people that play WvW leave and the game ends. SHURE!!

You guys need to get a reality check. WvW isn't as important to the longevity of this game as you want to think. Sure, WvW players would leave at this continued rate. That would simply mean Anet could focus on developing the parts of this game that don't drag it down.

Wow... I don’t really think you could be more smug. And people call raiders and sPvPers elitist.

Nothing smug about it. If WvW isn't generating enough revenue and it's not a loss leader, then it should go away so they can focus on what is working for them. That's how business works.

Why do you think car makers are dumping sedans for SUV and crossovers? It's no different.

There's no WvW only gemstore, we buy and farm the same kitten as everyone else,.

That doesn't matter. I can assure you, Anet can measure who is playing what mode, for how long and how much they are spending. if WvW players are not the majority of the revenue, WvW won't be the majority of the investment. The decision on what to focus development on is a business one, not an emotional one.

The problem with anyone like Obtena who mentions short-term and short-sighted business practises like that is that they don't aknowledge that it is part of the criticism here. Yes, some companies do think and act like that, but it is wrong to do so. If you measure a mode by its active population after 7 years of neglect you are subjecting yourself to a scientific folly known as confirmation bias. You get the expected result but fail to measure the valuable result: The potential. It is a failure to do so even from a cold business perspective.

The value of WvW is not what you can peddle to a community that you have strangled to death over 7 years, a community you have hogtied in recruiting from other games, recruiting from within the game or appeal at even a basic level of reaching objectives by playing in primetime as opposed to when you are supposed to be asleep, at work or at school.

The selling point of WvW is that it has perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay. The limitation of WvW is that it has outdated and unfinished ruleset systems even 7 years after release. The gameplay systems are superior to all of the following places to attract players from: WoW battlegrounds, WoWC battlegrounds, WoWC open world PvP, WoW arenas, FFXIV Feast 5v5 TDM, FFXIV Rival Wings, FFXIV Frontline/Shatter/Seize, EVE Online, BDO open world PvP, BDO Caravans, BDO GW, BDO Siege, BDO BG, ESO Cydoriiil WvW, ESO GvG, ArchAge Open Sea, ArchAge GvG. The list goes on...

That is the potential revenue stream because the core gameplay physics in GW2 is still better in a 5v5+ scenario than in all those other games and modes.

Even if we are strictly talking business, that is the business we have to talk, otherwise we are crippling ourselves with confirmation bias, restricted layman perspectives on business steeped in the can't-do spirit of terrible media pundits and the tongue of the lootbox gambling goblins who does not want to make computer games or any form of play-centric products. People who are in the wrong business. Their business practises are nothing to follow or hail as some sort of ideal. That is the breakfast of failures, not champions.

[shiri.4257]

So which one of you preaching business acumen have/currently own a business that's lasted longer than 5years?

[subversiontwo.7501]

On a related note: The same goes for the MMO as a genre. The self-proclaimed industry analysists, both media and corporate (or their starry-eyed fans), have since long suggested the genre itself is dying and companies like ArenaNet seem to have lost faith in the model and the design documents they themselves released of this very game before the release. Yet even an oldschool MMO behemoth like WoWC have now sold more than twice the projected launch revenue (they have added more than twice the amount of servers it had around release date; many of them open world PvP servers, which have more than trippled). Even I am doubtful that it will last past the initial phases but the launch alone is ample proof that there is still a large built up demand for proper MMO titles (you know, massive, social-building, interconnected gameplay- and gamemode games). The problem is supply, clearly not demand if millions of players can be pulled and funneled at once.

That should suggest something to all these industry chickens.

[Obtena.7952]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etterwyn.5263 said:This is the way the game endsThis is the way the game endsThis is the way the game ends

Not with a bang but with a whimper.

Yeah, like all 5 people that play WvW leave and the game ends. SHURE!!

You guys need to get a reality check. WvW isn't as important to the longevity of this game as you want to think. Sure, WvW players would leave at this continued rate. That would simply mean Anet could focus on developing the parts of this game that don't drag it down.

Wow... I don’t really think you could be more smug. And people call raiders and sPvPers elitist.

Nothing smug about it. If WvW isn't generating enough revenue and it's not a loss leader, then it should go away so they can focus on what is working for them. That's how business works.

Why do you think car makers are dumping sedans for SUV and crossovers? It's no different.

There's no WvW only gemstore, we buy and farm the same kitten as everyone else,.

That doesn't matter. I can assure you, Anet can measure who is playing what mode, for how long and how much they are spending. if WvW players are not the majority of the revenue, WvW won't be the majority of the investment. The decision on what to focus development on is a business one, not an emotional one.

The problem with anyone like Obtena who mentions short-term and short-sighted business practises like that is that they don't aknowledge that it is part of the criticism here. Yes, some companies do think and act like that, but it is wrong to do so. If you measure a mode by its active population after 7 years of neglect you are subjecting yourself to a scientific folly known as confirmation bias. You get the expected result but fail to measure the valuable result: The potential. It is a failure to do so even from a cold business perspective.

The value of WvW is not what you can peddle to a community that you have strangled to death over 7 years, a community you have hogtied in recruiting from other games, recruiting from within the game or appeal at even a basic level of reaching objectives by playing in primetime as opposed to when you are supposed to be asleep, at work or at school.

The selling point of WvW is that it has perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay.

Let's be clear here ... we aren't talking about how Anet sells the game to people based on it's game modes. We are talking about people unwilling to recognize the value of WVW in Anet's game offering. If the selling point of WvW is that it has perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay (let's assume that's true) ... then it's clear the market GW2 appeals to doesn't really care about having a perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay, otherwise it would be WAY more successful than it has been, that would lead to increased investment, blah, blah, blah.

Short sighted or not ... no successful company is going to bet the farm on less profitable goods and services, especially at the expense of the more profitable ones. If anything, the more profitable G&S are going to fund the lesser ones and enable them to be continued being offered, which it what it feels like is happening here.

[shiri.4257]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:On a related note: The same goes for the MMO as a genre. The self-proclaimed industry analysists, both media and corporate (or their starry-eyed fans), have since long suggested the genre itself is dying and companies like ArenaNet seem to have lost faith in the model and the design documents they themselves released of this very game before the release. Yet even an oldschool MMO behemoth like WoWC have now sold more than twice the projected launch revenue (they have added more than twice the amount of servers it had around release date; many of them open world PvP servers, which have more than trippled). Even I am doubtful that it will last past the initial phases but the launch alone is ample proof that there is still a large built up demand for proper MMO titles (you know, massive, social-building, interconnected gameplay- and gamemode games). The problem is supply, clearly not demand if millions of players can be pulled and funneled at once.

That should suggest something to all these industry chickens.

Are you projecting a business model's success on a 1 month hype train? Do you own a banana stand?

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etterwyn.5263 said:This is the way the game endsThis is the way the game endsThis is the way the game ends

Not with a bang but with a whimper.

Yeah, like all 5 people that play WvW leave and the game ends. SHURE!!

You guys need to get a reality check. WvW isn't as important to the longevity of this game as you want to think. Sure, WvW players would leave at this continued rate. That would simply mean Anet could focus on developing the parts of this game that don't drag it down.

Wow... I don’t really think you could be more smug. And people call raiders and sPvPers elitist.

Nothing smug about it. If WvW isn't generating enough revenue and it's not a loss leader, then it should go away so they can focus on what is working for them. That's how business works.

Why do you think car makers are dumping sedans for SUV and crossovers? It's no different.

There's no WvW only gemstore, we buy and farm the same kitten as everyone else,.

That doesn't matter. I can assure you, Anet can measure who is playing what mode, for how long and how much they are spending. if WvW players are not the majority of the revenue, WvW won't be the majority of the investment. The decision on what to focus development on is a business one, not an emotional one.

The problem with anyone like Obtena who mentions short-term and short-sighted business practises like that is that they don't aknowledge that it is part of the criticism here. Yes, some companies do think and act like that, but it is wrong to do so. If you measure a mode by its active population after 7 years of neglect you are subjecting yourself to a scientific folly known as confirmation bias. You get the expected result but fail to measure the valuable result: The potential. It is a failure to do so even from a cold business perspective.

The value of WvW is not what you can peddle to a community that you have strangled to death over 7 years, a community you have hogtied in recruiting from other games, recruiting from within the game or appeal at even a basic level of reaching objectives by playing in primetime as opposed to when you are supposed to be asleep, at work or at school.

The selling point of WvW is that it has perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay.

Let's be clear here ... we aren't talking about how Anet sells the game to people based on it's game modes. We are talking about people unwilling to recognize the value of WVW in Anet's game offering. If the selling point of WvW is that it has perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay (let's assume that's true) ... then it's clear the market GW2 appeals to doesn't really care about having a perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay, otherwise it would be WAY more successful than it has been. .... leading to .... increased investment, blah, blah, blah.

Blah blah blah? All I hear is Boc Boc Boc.

If you took a minute to see what I wrote you will see that you missed the main argument of the post. There is a demand in the market. There is an appeal in the gameplay systems. The appeal is wasted by the ruleset systems of the mode and the failure to highlight and market it (because they clearly do not like money or having employees enough to care about trying).

[Obtena.7952]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Etterwyn.5263 said:This is the way the game endsThis is the way the game endsThis is the way the game ends

Not with a bang but with a whimper.

Yeah, like all 5 people that play WvW leave and the game ends. SHURE!!

You guys need to get a reality check. WvW isn't as important to the longevity of this game as you want to think. Sure, WvW players would leave at this continued rate. That would simply mean Anet could focus on developing the parts of this game that don't drag it down.

Wow... I don’t really think you could be more smug. And people call raiders and sPvPers elitist.

Nothing smug about it. If WvW isn't generating enough revenue and it's not a loss leader, then it should go away so they can focus on what is working for them. That's how business works.

Why do you think car makers are dumping sedans for SUV and crossovers? It's no different.

There's no WvW only gemstore, we buy and farm the same kitten as everyone else,.

That doesn't matter. I can assure you, Anet can measure who is playing what mode, for how long and how much they are spending. if WvW players are not the majority of the revenue, WvW won't be the majority of the investment. The decision on what to focus development on is a business one, not an emotional one.

The problem with anyone like Obtena who mentions short-term and short-sighted business practises like that is that they don't aknowledge that it is part of the criticism here. Yes, some companies do think and act like that, but it is wrong to do so. If you measure a mode by its active population after 7 years of neglect you are subjecting yourself to a scientific folly known as confirmation bias. You get the expected result but fail to measure the valuable result: The potential. It is a failure to do so even from a cold business perspective.

The value of WvW is not what you can peddle to a community that you have strangled to death over 7 years, a community you have hogtied in recruiting from other games, recruiting from within the game or appeal at even a basic level of reaching objectives by playing in primetime as opposed to when you are supposed to be asleep, at work or at school.

The selling point of WvW is that it has perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay.

Let's be clear here ... we aren't talking about how Anet sells the game to people based on it's game modes. We are talking about people unwilling to recognize the value of WVW in Anet's game offering. If the selling point of WvW is that it has perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay (let's assume that's true) ... then it's clear the market GW2 appeals to doesn't really care about having a perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay, otherwise it would be WAY more successful than it has been. .... leading to .... increased investment, blah, blah, blah.

Blah blah blah? All I hear is Boc Boc Boc.

If you took a minute to see what I wrote you will see that you missed the main argument of the post. There is a demand in the market. There is an appeal in the gameplay systems. The appeal is wasted by the ruleset systems of the mode.

No, I didn't really miss that. Sure, there are people that like that selling point for WvW, etc ... and like you say, for whatever reason (you say it's a ruleset thing) they don't want Anet's flavour. That doesn't change anything I've said. I'm not here to argue about the REASON why people don't like GW2 WvW. If there are higher resolution issues that are finer than the appeal of 'perfect gameplay systems for MMO and RvR gameplay' that WvW offers in GW2 that prevent people from doing WvW, that STILL applies to what I'm talking about.

[Obtena.7952]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Nothing smug about it. If WvW isn't generating enough revenue and it's not a loss leader, then it should go away so they can focus on what is working for them. That's how business works.

Why do you think car makers are dumping sedans for SUV and crossovers? It's no different.

chances are tho if they actually got it right, not just a little but 100% right, people would flood to wvw and it would be very profitable.

Well sure ... that sort of goes with saying doesn't it? I'm not saying WvW can't be profitable or even the MOST profitable for Anet. Could it be? Sure.

I mean, GW2 got PVE right for the most part ... I have no doubt it's profitable. Could history be different and that might have been WvW with some different decisions? I don't see a reason why not ... but it doesn't appear that's what is happening, so that's why we are talking about WVW here instead of PVE.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@shiri.4257 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:On a related note: The same goes for the MMO as a genre. The self-proclaimed industry analysists, both media and corporate (or their starry-eyed fans), have since long suggested the genre itself is dying and companies like ArenaNet seem to have lost faith in the model and the design documents they themselves released of this very game before the release. Yet even an oldschool MMO behemoth like WoWC have now sold more than twice the projected launch revenue (they have added more than twice the amount of servers it had around release date; many of them open world PvP servers, which have more than trippled). Even I am doubtful that it will last past the initial phases but the launch alone is ample proof that there is still a large built up demand for proper MMO titles (you know, massive, social-building, interconnected gameplay- and gamemode games). The problem is supply, clearly not demand if millions of players can be pulled and funneled at once.

That should suggest something to all these industry chickens.

Are you projecting a business model's success on a 1 month hype train? Do you own a banana stand?No I am projecting a business model's success on it being the highest grossing model ever but I am suggesting that there is still a demand for that model that has survived for 20 years based on how a 20-year old game can still create a hype train of millions in 2019.

My banana stand is the gaming industry. What is your expertise?

[shiri.4257]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@shiri.4257 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:On a related note: The same goes for the MMO as a genre. The self-proclaimed industry analysists, both media and corporate (or their starry-eyed fans), have since long suggested the genre itself is dying and companies like ArenaNet seem to have lost faith in the model and the design documents they themselves released of this very game before the release. Yet even an oldschool MMO behemoth like WoWC have now sold more than twice the projected launch revenue (they have added more than twice the amount of servers it had around release date; many of them open world PvP servers, which have more than trippled). Even I am doubtful that it will last past the initial phases but the launch alone is ample proof that there is still a large built up demand for proper MMO titles (you know, massive, social-building, interconnected gameplay- and gamemode games). The problem is supply, clearly not demand if millions of players can be pulled and funneled at once.

That should suggest something to all these industry chickens.

Are you projecting a business model's success on a 1 month hype train? Do you own a banana stand?No I am projecting a business model's success on it being the highest grossing model ever but I am suggesting that there is still a demand for that model that has survived for 20 years based on how a 20-year old game can still create a hype train of millions in 2019.

My banana stand is the gaming industry. What is your expertise?

so you're saying WoW's highest grossing model is over its pvp battlegrounds? mines pharmaceuticals, so perhaps not as well versed as your analysis on top tier yahoo articles that confirm your own bias.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@shiri.4257 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@shiri.4257 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:On a related note: The same goes for the MMO as a genre. The self-proclaimed industry analysists, both media and corporate (or their starry-eyed fans), have since long suggested the genre itself is dying and companies like ArenaNet seem to have lost faith in the model and the design documents they themselves released of this very game before the release. Yet even an oldschool MMO behemoth like WoWC have now sold more than twice the projected launch revenue (they have added more than twice the amount of servers it had around release date; many of them open world PvP servers, which have more than trippled). Even I am doubtful that it will last past the initial phases but the launch alone is ample proof that there is still a large built up demand for proper MMO titles (you know, massive, social-building, interconnected gameplay- and gamemode games). The problem is supply, clearly not demand if millions of players can be pulled and funneled at once.

That should suggest something to all these industry chickens.

Are you projecting a business model's success on a 1 month hype train? Do you own a banana stand?No I am projecting a business model's success on it being the highest grossing model ever but I am suggesting that there is still a demand for that model that has survived for 20 years based on how a 20-year old game can still create a hype train of millions in 2019.

My banana stand is the gaming industry. What is your expertise?

so you're saying WoW's highest grossing model is over its pvp battlegrounds? mines pharmaceuticals, so perhaps not as well versed as your analysis on top tier yahoo articles that confirm your own bias.No, WoW's highest grossing model is oldschool MMO (that massive online thing). It is even still subscription based.If you want a "WvW-only" MMO that remains in operation after 15 years you can look at EVE Online. Incidentally it is also subscription based.Try not to be so sour that you get the thread locked or the posts overmoderated.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Nothing smug about it. If WvW isn't generating enough revenue and it's not a loss leader, then it should go away so they can focus on what is working for them. That's how business works.

Why do you think car makers are dumping sedans for SUV and crossovers? It's no different.

chances are tho if they actually got it right, not just a little but 100% right, people would flood to wvw and it would be very profitable.

Well sure ... that sort of goes with saying doesn't it? I'm not saying WvW can't be profitable or even the MOST profitable for Anet. Could it be? Sure.

I mean, GW2 got PVE right for the most part ... I have no doubt it's profitable. Could history be different and that might have been WvW with some different decisions? I don't see a reason why not ... but it doesn't appear that's what is happening, so that's why we are talking about WVW here instead of PVE.

Well see the benefit of a live service game, which GW2 is as are all MMORPGs, is that they can make iterations, improvements, updates and changes over time to keep something up to date, keep it interesting or overall just make the experience in general better. While ANet has definitely put a lot of focus on general PvE content, with Living World and the infrequent and, honestly at this point, rare additions to Raids and Fractals I wouldn't classify that as them having "got PvE right for the most part" there is still a lot to be desired in regards to PvE content in GW2.

Granted this can all be subjective to the tastes of an individual, but I'd posit the idea that the issue stems more from the fact that ANet has essentially catered to a specific facet of player "type" and only to that one. They have made concerted efforts in the past, sure, like when Raids were initially even announced and added to the game; it came at a time when players were not satisfied with the current PvE climate and lack of any actual challenge or depth to PvE. Dungeons weren't cutting it, Fractals weren't cutting it and Open World wasn't cutting it. Raids stymied the issue for a time, but rather than improve or evolve and move forward they seem like they have either stagnated or regressed.

Why do I mention all of this about PvE in this thread? Because its a trend that ANet has maintained in near everything in the game. It might not even be intentional, but I do feel like it is a problem that is being ignored like there is some lack of self awareness on ANets part. WvW has gone years without a meaningful update to quell the issues that plague it, sPvP has gone years without a meaningful update to quell the issues that plague it. The players see the problem, they've suggested solutions, there have even been plenty of valid, well thought out and presented critiques of the various issues and how one might solve them numerous times over the years. Yet the issues still remain. Barely a word from ANet about them as well. We get passing mentions of Alliances in maybe a few random dev posts, same for Swiss tournaments; both of which, mind you, have been in "development" for over a year and a half (Alliances) and just over 2 years (swiss). With either very little or no communication on the details of either system, just a the bog standard "soon" statement. Its been "soon" for well over 18 months for both systems...with very little indication or reveal of information or details...thats a lot of time for them to say that or even present the excuse of "We don't have that information to share right now" because to me, based on that timeline of both a year and a half and 2 years, they had to have not even been working on it for their to not be information to share.

Long story short, it doesn't feel like ANet is actually even paying attention or doing anything to resolve these problems. It should not take their PvP team 2 years to resolve a balance problem, Sic Em Soulbeasts and their 1 shotting with 23k+ damage, that was present literally from the initial beta weekend test for PoF and then their "solution" didn't even fix the problem. I know their team is smaller now, maybe it was smaller even before the layoffs...but I have seen similarly sized teams, maybe different game, do much more with arguably more difficult things to implement in less time than it takes ANet to actually do something.

Warframe literally figured out and is soon releasing multi crew ship open space flight with cross instance mission objectives with "team linking" in less time than it has taken ANet to "fix" a balance issue or release a "style" of tournament for a PvP game mode.

ANet could do better...it just feels like they don't even want to bother to.

[shiri.4257]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@shiri.4257 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@shiri.4257 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:On a related note: The same goes for the MMO as a genre. The self-proclaimed industry analysists, both media and corporate (or their starry-eyed fans), have since long suggested the genre itself is dying and companies like ArenaNet seem to have lost faith in the model and the design documents they themselves released of this very game before the release. Yet even an oldschool MMO behemoth like WoWC have now sold more than twice the projected launch revenue (they have added more than twice the amount of servers it had around release date; many of them open world PvP servers, which have more than trippled). Even I am doubtful that it will last past the initial phases but the launch alone is ample proof that there is still a large built up demand for proper MMO titles (you know, massive, social-building, interconnected gameplay- and gamemode games). The problem is supply, clearly not demand if millions of players can be pulled and funneled at once.

That should suggest something to all these industry chickens.

Are you projecting a business model's success on a 1 month hype train? Do you own a banana stand?No I am projecting a business model's success on it being the highest grossing model ever but I am suggesting that there is still a demand for that model that has survived for 20 years based on how a 20-year old game can still create a hype train of millions in 2019.

My banana stand is the gaming industry. What is your expertise?

so you're saying WoW's highest grossing model is over its pvp battlegrounds? mines pharmaceuticals, so perhaps not as well versed as your analysis on top tier yahoo articles that confirm your own bias.No, WoW's highest grossing model is oldschool MMO (that massive online thing). It is even still subscription based.If you want a "WvW-only" MMO that remains in operation after 15 years you can look at EVE Online. Incidentally it is also subscription based.Try not to be so sour that you get the thread locked or the posts overmoderated.

you mad bro? diversify, add some coconuts to your banana stand. the oldschool MMO model of WoW...dare i say its success is based off PvE (ie: raids, dungeons, open world socializing). are you advocating for a subscription model on gw2 for more pve content?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Obtena.7952 said:but it doesn't appear that's what is happening

that's why people are upset... and why it would be a huge loss to anet if they just gave up instead of hiring someone who knows what the fuck to do.

[juno.1840]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:Then prove the gap between PvE and WvW with more than speculation.Easy ... how much development has WvW had and how much development has PVE had? PVE gets WAY more development than WvW. The gap is obvious. If you don't see it, it's because you don't want to see it.

That's correlation -- not fact. The gap in development would be fact by consensus, but that is only a correlation to revenue gap.

Quite a bit of money was coming in from server transfers (which is purely a WvW revenue source). I would wager that is a more likely reason for delays in alliance roll-out than anything else.

[Caliburn.1845]

People often state that server transfer fees make Anet so much money, and is preventing changes to that system.

Have you ever actually thought about those numbers? Lets say 500 players transfer every time relinks hit. Lets say they pay full price, something like 20$ for 1800 gems. That only comes out to a little over a 1000$ per week. And that is a hugely liberal number. Most players don't straight up buy gems with dollars, they use in game gold. A large number of transfers don't go to servers that cost 1800 gems. It would not surprise me at all if Anet revenue from WvW world transfers was just a few hundred dollars a week. For a company their size, such a number is meaningless.

[c space cowboy.2764]

Ermm... 500x20$ is 10k dollars...

And I only play wvw and have personally spent thousands on this game.

Not anymore.

[Obtena.7952]

@juno.1840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:Then prove the gap between PvE and WvW with more than speculation.Easy ... how much development has WvW had and how much development has PVE had? PVE gets WAY more development than WvW. The gap is obvious. If you don't see it, it's because you don't want to see it.

That's correlation -- not fact. The gap in development would be fact by consensus, but that is only a correlation to revenue gap.

True it is ... no one argued otherwise ... at least I didn't. I have no problem saying that investment is strongly correlated to where the revenue comes from. It's not EXACTLY ... but it's going to follow that well enough to not 'offend' the players where that revenue is generated. I would call it a guideline. I mean ... I think we even have some good examples in game where that has happened, like Thunderhead Keep. That was BARELY a release-able LS episode. It was SO thin on activities and people picked up on that right away.

Quite a bit of money was coming in from server transfers (which is purely a WvW revenue source). I would wager that is a more likely reason for delays in alliance roll-out than anything else.

Again, I'm not saying WvW people don't spend money on things like this or what is in the gem store.

[Obtena.7952]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:but it doesn't appear that's what is happening

that's why people are upset... and why it would be a huge loss to anet if they just gave up instead of hiring someone who knows what the kitten to do.

I don't honestly think it has anything with knowing what to do. I mean, does ANYONE know what the right thing to do is? What does that even mean? The best Anet can do is something that will please some people, because even in PVE, they don't please everyone.

What leads anyone to believe they aren't working on something that will please some of the people, even though its taking a long time? I truly believe it's just a resources issue. They could develop WHATEVER code they wanted in the game with whatever people they have, so it's not a technological issue preventing this from happening.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Obtena.7952 said:snips

I think the lag means there is a tech issue somewhere. true tho they are working on alliances, kudos to them for that, it will help a lot. anyway this convo has come full circle.

[Obtena.7952]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:ANet could do better...it just feels like they don't even want to bother to.

And why do you think that is? I think my hypothesis for why they 'don't want to bother to' is pretty solid. While most people just think anet is incompetent, malicious or loathes their own game, I think the truth is based more firmly on some basic business fundamentals

[Caliburn.1845]

@c space cowboy.2764 said:Ermm... 500x20$ is 10k dollars...

And I only play wvw and have personally spent thousands on this game.

Not anymore.

10k dollars spaced over the 8 weeks of relink cycle. So like 1250$ bucks a week.

We have no idea of the actual revenue generated by transfers, but if I had to bet, I'd bet under that.

As to WvW players spending money on the game, some do, some don't. Depends on the person. It would be very interesting to see a breakdown of whether PVE-centric players or WvW-centric players on average spend the most in GW2.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:ANet could do better...it just feels like they don't even want to bother to.

And why do you think that is? I think my hypothesis for why they 'don't want to bother to' is pretty solid. While most people just think anet is incompetent, malicious or loathes their own game, I think the truth is based more firmly on some basic business fundamentals

I don't think they are malicious, or loathe their game, nor do I think they are entirely incompetent. I wouldn't dispute that the truth is related more to the business side, but I would suggest that it might be a problem in upper management and the direction they are told to go in and how they are to present things. Such can be similarly problematic for companies in the video game industry. Devs possibly having their hands tied due to the business side of things, the company being more concerned about the immediate gain in revenue rather than improving the current situation with the game and bringing about better longevity and player retention. You see it with companies like Activision, the constant churning out of CoD games and the double remaster of Modern Warfare. Its a problem with management and the direction the company goes in as a whole as opposed to any one or team of devs being responsible.

However that makes it even more important for the community to criticize and give feedback and spark well worth outrage over the nonsense that has persisted and just been exacerbated over the years with this game.