Core Power Mesmer Is Nasty Toxic Nonesense

mortrialus.3062 · December 8, 2019

@Hot Boy.7138 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:I have been summoned.
I'd personally like to see Berserker's Amulet be removed in SPvP. It either is a noob trap that leads to bad play or it enables dumb toxic stuff like One Shot mesmer and Sic Em Sniper.
I'd also like to see Mantra of Pain lose it's might stacks. That's probably the best immediate change we can make right now.
And I'd also like it to become a ticking time bomb mechanic similar to Pulminory Impact. A mesmer casts mantra of Pain, the target and up to 4 other enemies near the target start to glow for a few seconds, you can see Mantra of Pain appear on your status bar, and 2 seconds later that's when the attack and damage pulse happens. Something to nerf Power Mesmer's capacity to layer 8 different damage pulses in a fraction of a second gets decoupled and forcibly spread out over time.
That's what I'd do with the skill. Keeps the flavor of big damage, and even if it's instant cast there's still time for an opponent to react defensively.
Maybe trim a bounce off of Mirror Blade.
To be honest though, I think it might be time to directly nerf Mind Wrack. If all you have is one clone, Mind Wrack can still do 7k-12k damage with just a one clone shatter if you've just readied the mantra, have the 12 stacks of might as long as you're in melee range. It might be time to do something like reduce the damage of Mindwrack, maybe reduce the cooldown so that it's able to provide more consistent DPS. My impression of it was that it was always supposed to be a sort of execution mechanic. It'd take time to set up three clones in a fight or at least in the early design stages of the game that was assumed. So after 12 seconds of combat you'd have set up your clones and then you'd go in for the kill with execute. But right now it's just being used to immediately rush down players in under a second.
This is what a power burst can look like.
I get that it's a target dummy but It has 18,140 health and 2,322 armor. For comparison a Rifle Holosmith will have 16,282 Health and 2,625 Armor. Still a 12.5k one clone Mind Wrack.
The only advice I can give to people is to play with the game audio on. Mantra of Distraction has a very noticeable sound and it's typically the first thing to land in the burst. And scientifically you react to audio stimuli much faster than you do with visual stimuli. Even when I'm jumped and I didn't have any idea the mesmer was there I can typically avoid the burst pretty well. It might help you out.

i run berserker amulet and i don't run a one shot build and i don't consider myself falling into a noob trap. In this particular case, I don't think the issue is the amulet.

Less of an issue now than it used to be because a lot of people netdeck builds now. But it used to be really noticeable especially pre-hot. New players would come in think "I want to play a big damage build!" And then come in with out the skills to survive on it and get eaten alive. I think it was made even worse because a number of professions started out on berserker amulet by default. I just don't think the amulet is actually enabling much of anything in value in terms of the health of the game.

The issue is being able to have so many attacks all hitting at the same time so that when you are removed from stealth from doing damage, it is at the same time the target goes down. Anet should apply a 0.1 sec cast time to mantras and make mirror blade on greatsword unblockable. And a MAJOR change i would make is to give mesmers the choice of having either stealth or clones, but not both at the same time.

There's more than one way to skin a cat really because the level of multicasting on mesmer is really unlike anything else in game so you can hit a number of things and alleviate the problem somewhat.

If you prevent clones from being spawned from stealth, they'll just do it as they blink in to you from a distance you couldn't expect then stealth away to safety.

There's a lot of areas you can pull to alleviate it. But if you want to look at what is killing people the capacity to poke with a mirror blade and immediately instant cast unleash a 9-14k mind wrack with just one clone.

Axl.8924 · December 8, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

Leonidrex.5649 · December 8, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

how about we nerf necros barrier? for example holos barrier is like 1k while necros is 19k, lets move it to 1k so its fair?hope you see the analogy yes ?And for the love of god, can people that dont even know anything about mesmer stop suggesting shit ?

viquing.8254 · December 8, 2019

Yeah like I said in my previous post, you have bunch of kitten suggestions from everyone who didn't have a pound of how to suggest something who will not continue on uniformize kitten gameplay.The worst is that even if you explain why this spec is better than before, you still have people who want to nerf things who have nothing to do with the problem they encouter.

Burnfall.9573 · December 8, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

'Thief perma invi Oneshots'

Axl.8924 · December 8, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

how about we nerf necros barrier? for example holos barrier is like 1k while necros is 19k, lets move it to 1k so its fair?hope you see the analogy yes ?And for the love of god, can people that dont even know anything about mesmer stop suggesting kitten ?

barrier is nowhere near as strong, and its on scourge only plus warrior hard counters barriers does 50% damage.

Il trade you barrier on scourge for perma invis and mirage perma dodge.

Be careful what you wish for, or you might end up getting perma gimped. Thats not to say mesmers don't have their weaknesses, because they do, but you under estimate how good for instance mirage dodges are and that invuln and being abel to easily stealth and get quickness and a bunch of other buffs to reset battles.

Axl.8924 · December 8, 2019

@Burnfall.9573 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

'Thief perma invi Oneshots'

So wouldn't nerfing perma stealth be a good then? i mean we might not need to touch dmg of mesmers.

We can see for instance greatsword because it has that boomerang effect to summon a illusion and that beam channel effect from their 1.

Burnfall.9573 · December 8, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

'Thief perma invi Oneshots'

So wouldn't nerfing perma stealth be a good then? i mean we might not need to touch dmg of mesmers.

We can see for instance greatsword because it has that boomerang effect to summon a illusion and that beam channel effect from their 1.

I suggest completely removing stealth from Thief Profession period and nerfing stealth from the remaining professions

Axl.8924 · December 8, 2019

@Burnfall.9573 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

'Thief perma invi Oneshots'

So wouldn't nerfing perma stealth be a good then? i mean we might not need to touch dmg of mesmers.

We can see for instance greatsword because it has that boomerang effect to summon a illusion and that beam channel effect from their 1.

I suggest completely removing stealth from Thief Profession period and nerfing stealth from the remaining professions

I don't agree with permanently removing stealth from thief as that would completely destroy them, but nerfing perma stealth is def a good thing.

Leonidrex.5649 · December 8, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

how about we nerf necros barrier? for example holos barrier is like 1k while necros is 19k, lets move it to 1k so its fair?hope you see the analogy yes ?And for the love of god, can people that dont even know anything about mesmer stop suggesting kitten ?

barrier is nowhere near as strong, and its on scourge only plus warrior hard counters barriers does 50% damage.

Il trade you barrier on scourge for perma invis and mirage perma dodge.

Be careful what you wish for, or you might end up getting perma kitten. Thats not to say mesmers don't have their weaknesses, because they do, but you under estimate how good for instance mirage dodges are and that invuln and being abel to easily stealth and get quickness and a bunch of other buffs to reset battles.

First of all its not perma invis, relistically its about 30%Sec of all its not perma evade, I have 0 problems against mirage of any kind.3rd of all core necro and reaper DO run around with 19k HP "shround shield"your 50% dmg against barrier falls flat becous 1 its been nerfed, 2 it doesnt even work on reaper/core ( not 100% sure, someone else mentioned it to me )meanwhile reveal exists, it doesnt remove 25% stealth or 50% stealth, it removes 100% of it and makes it impossible to gain it :DCounter stealthing exists ( any thief can do it, any holo can do it, you ever seen a team without at least 1 of them? )You mentioned quickness, funny thing is. reaper has more quickness uptime then ANY meta mesmer build, preety slick right ?

Its all narrow view from people all around that wanna make choices on classes that they are clueless about.But worst of all are the people that have SOME idea, but dont fully grasp them.

Leonidrex.5649 · December 8, 2019

@viquing.8254 said:Yeah like I said in my previous post, you have bunch of kitten suggestions from everyone who didn't have a pound of how to suggest something who will not continue on uniformize kitten gameplay.The worst is that even if you explain why this spec is better than before, you still have people who want to nerf things who have nothing to do with the problem they encouter.

So far the suggestion that were made are.

Make stealth a transformation ( XD )
Reduce damage from stealth ( XD )
Nerf mass invis ( XDDDD )
Nerf F1 ( mega XD )
Nerf GS2 ( OMEGA XD )
Remove might from mantra of pain ( reasonable, but doesnt fix the issue. makes another unplayable utility, and possible that it wont even fix the issue makes bad build worse and still shitty to play against Ill but it in BAD category )
Reduce speed in stealth ( OMEGAXD )
Remove stealth when skill casttime starts (kekW )

Did I miss something ?

Axl.8924 · December 8, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"