Warclaw Lance - Removes Too Much 1vX Potential - Not Healthy For Low Population

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Yes, let's make a poll and ask if people quit WvW because of Warclaw or because of Lance. If more quit because of Lance, I'll give your OP a thumbs up. As I already said, your problems with Lance seem to actually be more related to Warclaw in general, which enable low-mobility players to catch up to the enemy. What's a Necro going to do that is left in the dust by a running Thief if the Warclaw is slower and has less dodges (which increase overall speed)? Lance from 2000 range and have it fail while continuing to lose distance? The Warclaw is the vehicle that allows for your problems with Lance. Lance is easily dodgeable, LoSable, has a 30s cooldown, and you can completely nullify it if you maneuver around your enemies and cause too great of a sudden shift in direction for the lance to follow.

[Sovereign.1093]

Rally for a spvp like queue for wvw instance.

[Infusion.7149]

I'm sorry, but anyone that actually plays this game mode (i.e. not as a ganker with everyone in discord killing randoms for lols) regularly thinks the mount sucks (that includes the triple leaps). If you pay attention to this subforum it also makes getting into WvW much more difficult for new players as they constantly get ganked by players with full tiered mounts that have mount stomp + reveal + triple leap + lance. So there's part of your reasoning why there's fewer new players.The lance ability (a way to dismount players) was an idea proposed by WvW players after the mount was introduced after all. Prior to that the primary gimmick was rapidfire+one wolf pack soulbeast. Don't forget that.

In addition, the reason why the mount makes things such a grind is because if you are attacking tiered objectives and wipe the enemy group in their keep then they can return much quicker than before since the mount is faster in owned territory (this is unlike PvP where everyone is on an equal footing with respect to mobility). On top of that, a returning defending group can mount stomp any downed players. Given that keep bonuses are quite large, this makes attacking tiered objectives largely dis-incentivized especially if there is an emergency waypoint on it.

[Sovereign.1093]

I love mounts. Best thing since my son was born.

[Forsaken.7015]

Make the dismounting lance a special action usable on mount or off simialar to special actions available in 100cm fractal and raids like cairne. Problem solved dismount.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:How can a player be capable of "kiting" until they break combat and remount, but not capable enough to dodge the lance skill?

Because you can't kite & dodge 5 players lancing you with various other unmounted damage also incoming, with 3 dodges. Even 2 players who are in pursuit, is a lot to deal with when you only have 3 dodges vs. 2 lances and whatever DPS comes in when the OOCs get close, dismount and burst.

So the same opponents that you "kited" suddenly become more competent when you're mounted?

What do you guys not understand about the mechanics of this game mode? It really is like I'm speaking to a bunch of people who either:

1. Only hide & play in zergs.
2. Refuse to use the Warclaw.
3. Just aren't paying attention to any game mechanics in general.

Pay very close attention to what I am explaining to you, as it is inarguable and this is how the game works:

A SCENARIO BEFORE WARCLAW WAS INTRODUCED AS A MOUNT:

1. A typical roam class such as Mesmer, Thief, Ranger, Warrior gets himself caught out in a field in a 1v2 situation.
2. Any of those 4 classes could potentially win a 1v2 situation against any combination of those 4 classes, with wise kiting, LOSing, proper use of resources available. This is because the intra-class balance of mobility for kiting vs. power for engagement was relatively balanced before the introduction of Warclaw. And with the absence of Warclaw, there was no way for something like a slow & powerful Dragonhunter to keep pace with something like a Thief, which the Dragonhunter is a direct engagement counter to the Thief. This is how things are supposed to be. Very fast things are less potent at staying engaged for very long. Very powerful things that can stay engaged for long durations of time with relatively low risk are supposed to be slow. When the game works this way, things are balanced. A very fast roamer may have a strong burst, but if he messes up at all and gets caught by something like a Reaper, it generally results in the Thief being swiftly KO'd.
3. In these days, A good Warrior let's say, could kite around the outskirts of a tower or under bridges and around objects to create LOS advantage against the 2 opponents chasing him. Whenever they get too close to him, he lands some damage, burns some defensive CDs and then quickly heads to the next LOS so he can recover CDs while kiting. The opponents only have normal CCs to land against him. So with wise use of stability & stun breaks, he can ensure that he is never caught flat footed and completely out-mobilized. They may be able to slightly out-mobilize him, let's say it is a Thief and a Mesmer chasing him, but they can't completely out-mobilize him in the way that Warclaw play with Lance works, which we'll get into soon enough. The point being is that the kiting was manageable in these days. It made playing in outmanned situations FUN to do, because these situations were realistic to win in, if a player possessed the skill & knowledge to do so.

A SCENARIO AFTER WARCLAW WAS INTRODUCED, BEFORE LANCE WAS IMPLEMENTED:

1. The very same thing is happening. Now we have a Spellbreaker who is 1v2ing a Mirage and a Deadeye. Obviously he must kite & LOS to pull this off.
2. The difference here, is that in the previous scenario, if the Mirage & Deadeye wanted to keep pace or out-mobilize the Spellbreaker, they actually had to use their skill cool downs to do so, things like Blink & Shadowstep, regardless of if they were in combat or OOC. In the previous scenario, even if the Deadeye were to get OOC, he would still need to burn init on Rifle#4 and burn CD on Shadowstep to realistically catch up. In the previous scenario, everyone was being forced to rotate resources to do what they do, and as such it was balanced. But now with Warclaw, if the Deadeye straggles behind on purpose to OOC, while the Mirage keeps the Spellbreaker in combat, the Deadeye can mount and now very very easily catch up while not burning any character resources to do so. Are you paying here? I don't understand why I have to explain this to players who supposedly play this game mode. Now the Spellbreaker cannot OOC because 1 player is keeping him in combat. But any other players who are wise enough to straggle just long enough to OOC for that mount, are able to easily catch the Spellbreaker while using no resources, and then dismount while directly next to him, with full resources. This made it easier to catch roamers to begin with, if it was a 1vX situation or say a party of 5 vs. a squad of 10.
3. BUT AT LEAST if the Spellbreaker could manage to close a gap for a fast OOC, he could at least mount to match the mobility of the other players on mounts, and keep his disengage. Even if he was in enemy territory and moving more slowly, without Lance he could wisely use 3 dodges against even Power Mirage and DE damage output, to potentially keep moving. And each time they would attempt to dismount to burst him, they run the risk of going in combat and allowing him a large lead in disengage because he is still mounted. But with 2 people on him like that, he had better head to the next tower that his server owns or WP when he gets a chance, because with his decreased movement speed, they will be able to keep following him and attempting those bursts to dismount him, which realistically is not hard to do when you're pumping out 10k - 15k strikes from builds like Power Mirage or Rifle Deadeye.
4. Best case scenario, the quick Warclaw mount allows the Spellbreaker to get somewhere while his health resets, so he can continue the 1v2 and potentially win while under better environmental circumstances. A good example would be Alpine Borderlands North Supply Camps. Between all of the little buildings and the Vista jump, there is a lot of 1vX potential in that environment.

A SCENARIO WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF LANCE 1500 RANGE AND INSTANT DISMOUNT:

1. The very same scenario is being used here again. A Spellbreaker is 1v2ing a Mirage and a Deadeye.
2. Because of 1 opponent keeping the Spellbreaker in combat, while 1 OOCs to mount with Lance, even if the Spellbreaker manages a quick mount, because he is in enemy territory and moving a bit slower than the opponents, it is likely that he will not stay mounted long. The reason is simple: He cannot preserve his 3 dodge rolls for counter play vs. Lance because the dodge rolls must be used for speed boost. If he does not use them for speed boost, the opponents surely will use their dodges for speed boosts upon the fact that they are already moving more quickly. If he preserves his speed boost dodges only for counter play vs. Lance, it will be easy for the opponents to get ahead of him actually and flank him. So now he is forced to either (A) preserve dodges for counter play vs. Lance, in this case he runs the risk of two burst classes easily flanking him, dismounting and bursting as normal, which will dismount him coming from 2x DPS classes. And keep in mind that preserving those dodges is not a guarantee for dodging the Lance at all. He very well and probably will get hit with it anyway. Or (B) Use his speed boosts to make relative pace and run a greater risk of being hit by Lance, which is worse than if the opponents dismounted to burst the mount, because then they will still have their bursts when he dismounts, to instantly kill him. And the reason why the 1v2 is now imbalanced, is because in the first scenario, if they wanted to keep up with him, they had to burn character resources to do it. But now they preserve their resources while chasing him, and in fact have a super CC to instant dismount him upon that, and enter engagement with full resources.
3. The fact of the matter is that Lance is too much pressure for the outmanned. Warclaw in general was a lot of added pressure to the outmanned, but Lance is just too much. I'm not talking 1v1s, I'm talking about being outmanned. The problem comes in two phases: The first is mentioned about how Warclaw allows strong chase potential while not needing to use character resources to create that chase potential. The second is with Lance, which tactfully puts an escaping roamer into a situation where it is unrealistic to chose a counter play measure to actually ensure that the disengage has a realistic chance of working. Because of Lance, it is now much more likely that the roamer will always be caught. <- Again, this is making people not want to try during outmanned situations, because it is not fun to not be able to play around larger groups that are chasing you, whether it's 1vX or 5 vs 10, it's the same thing. People want to be able to KNOW that if they are smart about positioning, that it is possible to move around a map, avoid larger numbers, and get something done. But the way it stands now, if you are outmanned and they chase, you're going to get caught if you don't WP or run into an objective that you own, which leads to a ton of stagnation, no rewards, nothing is getting done, boring game mode. <- This is why the old roamers are disappearing, and maps are so barren because roamers are disappearing. It is not fun to grind against superior numbers when little to nothing can be achieved from it.
4. The other aspect that tips this issue towards large imbalance, is that literally anyone who is mounted can chase a roamer and do this now. Minstrel Firebrands, slow Necromancers, slow & low damage everything. At first I thought this was a good thing. But in the long haul I am seeing that this is removing the role of roamer, which was largely the bulk of WvW population for years, whether you want to admit that or not. The bulk of WvW population was people joining and sort of going around and doing what they wanted at the time. Maybe follow a PIN for awhile, but then veer off and run some supply camps, then maybe havoc around and target guys trying to take your supply camps. But now people join a map and don't want to try if they are outnumbered, because it's too easy to get clapped when 2 people are chasing you on Warclaws with Lance. So with a much lower influx of roamer play, our maps become empty, and there is nothing to work with even if you wanted to PIN up.

Roamers need to be able to 1vX again. Some of you may claim that no one should be able to win 1vXs, whatever. But they do need to be able to SURVIVE because when they can't, the game mode becomes unfun and then people don't stay & play.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Infusion.7149

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Yes, let's make a poll and ask if people quit WvW because of Warclaw or because of Lance. If more quit because of Lance, I'll give your OP a thumbs up. As I already said, your problems with Lance seem to actually be more related to Warclaw in general, which enable low-mobility players to catch up to the enemy. What's a Necro going to do that is left in the dust by a running Thief if the Warclaw is slower and has less dodges (which increase overall speed)? Lance from 2000 range and have it fail while continuing to lose distance? The Warclaw is the vehicle that allows for your problems with Lance. Lance is easily dodgeable, LoSable, has a 30s cooldown, and you can completely nullify it if you maneuver around your enemies and cause too great of a sudden shift in direction for the lance to follow.

I'm trying to stray away from Warclaw or no Warclaw, because the fact of the matter is that Arenanet has given us Warclaw. And if it isn't apparent at this point, Arenanet is not going to remove Warclaw from the game.

The point of what I'm posting here, is to point out that Lance made it worse.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[Zexanima.7851]

To all the people saying "you shouldn't win outnumbered fights!" I say you're wrong. As someone who plays a lot of sPvP, when I go roam the skill level of players in wvw is night and day from spvp. At least 50% of the players I fight barely even damage me. They just run around aimlessly spaming skills or in some cases just stand there and auto attack while I kill their buddy. If you're going to have no idea how to fight in a pvp senario you should lose, even if you outnumber your opponents. I agree with Trevor. My example:

I was roaming as warrior with a thief buddy the other day. We went to defend a camp being attacked by 3 people. My buddy ate a burst and went down right off the bat so I started kiting. This went on for around 5-ish minutes while my buddy made their way back. Those three were not going to be able to kill me but I couldn't kill them solo because they had a pocket healer. They would'nt let me run though and it became a battle of attrition. I kept trying to mount to yeet out, they kept dismounting me. FINALLY my buddy showed back up, we focused healer and the other two were cake. I could have saved myself a lot of time though if I could have just mounted up and left once I kited far enough away. It was super annoying.

I honestly think warclaw was a mistake, it puts smaller groups at a bigger disadvantage with mount stomp and lance. Say I'm 2v4 if they have a down they can keep pressuring us to keep from mounting and force us to cleave. If they have a down on one of us they don't have to worry about cleaving, they just have one dude break combat and mount stomp giving us no chance to rez and removing the need to know you have to cleave downs (suprisingly a lot of people forget this). Lance prevents us from being able to escape situations where a larger group ganks you. Say you are plus 1v2, it's doable. Then +5 show up, well got to gtfo or die. It doesn't matter if you have lots of mobility and are good at kiting. Even if you mount up they are going to have enough access to lance to make sure you cant get away and just keep hitting you with mount to keep you in combat.

[Infusion.7149]

@ Trevor Boyer, I used to be like you. I used to roam all the time on my own before reward tracks and pre-nerf chrono and previously during every time zone so I know what outmanned feels like. One of my guild leaders was notorious for playing over 72 hours straight at reset. Most of my friends that played the same number of hours are diamond legend already. You have to understand that WvW was never about 1vX. It's the same case as the other thread about getting hit with backstab like it's a new innovation when it's been in the game since 2012.You have to understand WvW is about objectives. Unless you're using finishers with bloodlust and capping objectives, you're actively hurting your server if it's queued by roaming and especially if you do such tomfoolery as running around getting into fights versus stealth classes (especially permastealth deadeyes). Ganking people does nothing for your server because killing people in the middle of nowhere doesn't award war score. Likewise if you defend a camp but the yaks aren't getting anywhere.

Before mount: disengage completely or likely die if in combat vs multiple peopleMount , before lance: stare at each other , run away or something like dismount and use the quaggan tonic with a balloon to waste time for both peopleAfter lance: either dismount both people , or just run away and hope not to be dismounted , this changes nothing from before

It is meaningless for outmanned "group fights" that you mention since stealth gyro / veil pushes rely on stealth and the warclaw does not stealth. The only purpose is if you have someone stay behind as bait or as a mount stomp. 5v10 is not the same as 1vX because a group comped 5 can take a group of 10 that is disorganized and without sustain through coordinated attacking, healing, function gyro stomps/res, and merciful intervention ressing. This is especially true if the 10 person side is using PvE glassy builds (basically nobody runs toughness in PvE) and/or gear because the downed state will be more or less non-existent against high burst AoE builds such as rev or staff daredevil. Similarly, using portals (whether they are scourge, mesmer, or the ones on keeps and towers) and chokes allows for outmaneuvering the enemy : lance doesn't affect this much unless you're implying you can coordinate to the extent that you have everyone dismount a different player. If you mean 5 organized vs 10 organized, then no that's never going to be even close to an fair fight. I don't know of any sane person getting into 2x outmanned fights without some sort of advantage whether it be overall player skill (a greater percentage organized vs randoms) , surprise via a second supporting flank group out of stealth, keep bonuses + siege, or tactics (chilling fog, dragon banner, or otherwise). Even if you wipe vs 2x numbers, are you really going to to feel bad about it? If your ego is that fragile either exit WvW or don't fight that grossly outmanned.

You can still cap objectives that enemy servers aren't scouting well such as camps, towers, and keeps but the issue is always there that defenders will arrive quicker than you can return to the fight. It's map politics : if you're outmanned and the other server is blobbing heavily you can split up among the map or play on another map unless all maps have defending forces with scouts.

Lance isn't "too much pressure" , it does less than autoattacks , misses often against moving targets when at range, and only serves to dismount. I think what you really take issue with is high burst roaming builds and getting into fights with roaming stealth classes. In your example, a minstrel firebrand poses little to no threat even if it dismounts a spellbreaker and neither does mostly any power class that doesn't have burst.

If anything what you posted reflects the idea that the warclaw should only be about mobility and dismounting other warclaws. At its introduction, people were literally just using 25 warclaws and mount stomping full health groups.

[Shroud.2307]

@"Zexanima.7851" said:To all the people saying "you shouldn't win outnumbered fights!" I say you're wrong. As someone who plays a lot of sPvP, when I go roam the skill level of players in wvw is night and day from spvp. At least 50% of the players I fight barely even damage me. They just run around aimlessly spaming skills or in some cases just stand there and auto attack while I kill their buddy. If you're going to have no idea how to fight in a pvp senario you should lose, even if you outnumber your opponents. I agree with Trevor. My example:

I was roaming as warrior with a thief buddy the other day. We went to defend a camp being attacked by 3 people. My buddy ate a burst and went down right off the bat so I started kiting. This went on for around 5-ish minutes while my buddy made their way back. Those three were not going to be able to kill me but I couldn't kill them solo because they had a pocket healer. They would'nt let me run though and it became a battle of attrition. I kept trying to mount to yeet out, they kept dismounting me. FINALLY my buddy showed back up, we focused healer and the other two were cake. I could have saved myself a lot of time though if I could have just mounted up and left once I kited far enough away. It was super annoying.

I honestly think warclaw was a mistake, it puts smaller groups at a bigger disadvantage with mount stomp and lance. Say I'm 2v4 if they have a down they can keep pressuring us to keep from mounting and force us to cleave. If they have a down on one of us they don't have to worry about cleaving, they just have one dude break combat and mount stomp giving us no chance to rez and removing the need to know you have to cleave downs (suprisingly a lot of people forget this). Lance prevents us from being able to escape situations where a larger group ganks you. Say you are plus 1v2, it's doable. Then +5 show up, well got to gtfo or die. It doesn't matter if you have lots of mobility and are good at kiting. Even if you mount up they are going to have enough access to lance to make sure you cant get away and just keep hitting you with mount to keep you in combat.

Before Mounts if you were engaged in an outnumbered fight and killed a few, it would take longer for the defeated players to rejoin the fight giving you more time to overcome the odds. You likely would still need to attempt breaking combat or hard kiting depending on the number difference, but there would still be a high chance of being caught by something faster, especially if they broke combat as well.

Now with Mounts players can regroup a lot more quickly, but this doesn't make outnumbered fights impossible and really, it doesn't even make it more difficult. It just means you need to pull people further and kite sooner. I don't know why people are so stubborn refusing to learn that if they're outnumbered they can't hold their ground if they're killing only a few at a time. Kill and kite, kill and kite. Not kill and push.

Mounts don't make any difference other than how quickly people are going to rejoin. If you don't want to change how you handle that then it's no one's fault but your own. Abuse terrain, play defensive, consider how many are dying and how quickly, and don't rely on breaking combat to win the fight. It is a legitimate tactic to OOC and recover, especially when outnumbered, but you can't seriously think you're going to get away with it if you're trying to run in a straight line in an open field or something. If you're depending on that breather to win you the fight, you need to be pulling back to a more defensive location ( eg. a choke, an area with complex terrain ) anticipating the time you'll need to do so. This way you have more ground to play with to break LOS and combat.

I don't like Mounts as much as the next person, but people assuming they can just dip on combat like the old days need to start thinking outside the box. Things with less mobility have had to think this way since day 1 while classes like Thief and Mesmer are struggling to adapt because they used to be able to peace out at their leisure.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Infusion.7149

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Yes, let's make a poll and ask if people quit WvW because of Warclaw or because of Lance. If more quit because of Lance, I'll give your OP a thumbs up. As I already said, your problems with Lance seem to actually be more related to Warclaw in general, which

enable

low-mobility players to catch up to the enemy. What's a Necro going to do that is left in the dust by a running Thief if the Warclaw is slower and has less dodges (which increase overall speed)? Lance from 2000 range and have it fail while continuing to lose distance? The Warclaw is the vehicle that allows for your problems with Lance. Lance is easily dodgeable, LoSable, has a 30s cooldown, and you can completely nullify it if you maneuver around your enemies and cause too great of a sudden shift in direction for the lance to follow.

I'm trying to stray away from Warclaw or no Warclaw, because the fact of the matter is that Arenanet has given us Warclaw. And if it isn't apparent at this point, Arenanet is not going to remove Warclaw from the game.

The point of what I'm posting here, is to point out that Lance made it worse.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I am not advocating for the removal of Warclaw. Trust me, as much as I would love for it to go, I know it is here to stay forever and I have long accepted that. I am stating that your issues are related more specifically to Warclaw balance (non-Lance), and that the slated changes for it that they have proposed should help make your frustrations (which I share for the most part) less severe. With slower mount speeds (normalized to the enemy-territory speed) and one less dodge, it will be significantly harder to catch up to enemies after OOC-ing, meaning there will be fewer opportunities to use Lance. This will make mobility more impactful for disengages. Naturally not as much as pre-Warclaw, but it will still lessen the chase potential of Warclaw and the relevance of Lance.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Infusion.7149 said:@ Trevor Boyer, I used to be like you. I used to roam all the time on my own before reward tracks and pre-nerf chrono and previously during every time zone so I know what outmanned feels like. One of my guild leaders was notorious for playing over 72 hours straight at reset. Most of my friends that played the same number of hours are diamond legend already. You have to understand that WvW was never about 1vX. It's the same case as the other thread about getting hit with backstab like it's a new innovation when it's been in the game since 2012.You have to understand WvW is about objectives.

I'm typically the type of person that takes a full map's worth of supply camps and secures the bottom two towers in alpine borderlines, alone, when I roam and 1vX. Of course I stop what I am doing and rally to requests for defense, to help defend important objectives like SMC, or sometimes to PINs that I know are doing something productive.

I am well aware of how the game works.

[shiri.4257]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Jayden Reese.9542" said:You aren't kiting you are fighting not winning right away running mounting and coming back hoping to burst one of the 2 down. Like 7 classes can run if they really don't want to fight where if a necro or guard get lanced or engaged they fight win or fight and die so that's more unfair then your random scenario. I'm sorry 2 guys caught and killed you when you usually get away. My guess is you also play ranger and think 1500 rng kb then pet kd or root is fun for anyone else with lesser range. They when we winning you run and mount and think that's awesome and fair but oh noes you died to 2 coordinated guys and we get a novel to read.

My friend, I think you are missing the ultimate point of my post.

Normally I would have agreed with you before the implementation of Lance. I would have agreed that it would be "a good thing" to force players in-combat. However, after actually seeing the longer term effects of what this is doing to roam play and the overall activity of WvW, I've noticed that it is a problem.

We can't keep balancing the game around the idea of removing high skill cap play so that it is more casual and easy and more even field play for everyone, because that results in a situation where there is no reason to show up to a 10 vs. 20 ball game when you already know you are going to lose, because the only thing that matters is numbers, because you can no longer kite, disengage, and outplay larger groups. If we want the game mode to pick back up some momentum, we need to begin accepting mechanics that allow strong players to do what they do, so that they stay and play during outmanned situations.

Consider this. I mean really stop and think about this from a macro designer point of view, who is trying to figure out: "Why aren't players coming in and staying to skirmish like they used to?" Well aside from many other aspects that could enter this debacle, the glaring aspect to me seems pretty simple, they no longer can. I know it is annoying when 2 good players kite a 6 man squad and eventually win against them, but hey, that's a competitive game. We have to make room and accept the presence of good players rather than asking for game designs that prevents them from being able to stress their skill cap, otherwise people stop showing up to the 10 vs. 20 ball game man.

Unless Arenanet wants to shuffle everyone onto 3 super servers so we all get dense population again, Lance in its current state has got to be changed.

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Without the lance, it's hard to have 1vanything at all.

It would work just fine as a cripple or slow effect at half range even, for the purposes of forcing a 1v1 engagement. The 1500 range instant dismount is too snowbally of a mechanic for larger groups to wield against smaller groups. It just allows a larger group to absolutely shred smaller groups. lately I see more players than ever, form a party or small squad, go out once and get a bad wipe from a group double their size, and then they all leave party don't even try a 2nd time. And we're talking they do this with known PUGmanders even. This is because they know there is no reason to stay there in that map at all, because small groups cannot deal with larger groups now, due to Lance.

Whenever I win, i consider it high skill cap play. Whenever I lose, I hope anet balances my version of low skill cap play.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Pay very close attention to what I am explaining to you, as it is inarguable and this is how the game works:

A SCENARIO BEFORE WARCLAW WAS INTRODUCED AS A MOUNT:

1. A typical roam class such as Mesmer, Thief, Ranger, Warrior gets himself caught out in a field in a 1v2 situation.
2. Any of those 4 classes could potentially win a 1v2 situation against any combination of those 4 classes, with wise kiting, LOSing, proper use of resources available. This is because the intra-class balance of mobility for kiting vs. power for engagement was relatively balanced before the introduction of Warclaw. And with the absence of Warclaw, there was no way for something like a slow & powerful Dragonhunter to keep pace with something like a Thief, which the Dragonhunter is a direct engagement counter to the Thief. This is how things are supposed to be. Very fast things are less potent at staying engaged for very long. Very powerful things that can stay engaged for long durations of time with relatively low risk are supposed to be slow. When the game works this way, things are balanced. A very fast roamer may have a strong burst, but if he messes up at all and gets caught by something like a Reaper, it generally results in the Thief being swiftly KO'd.
3. In these days, A good Warrior let's say, could kite around the outskirts of a tower or under bridges and around objects to create LOS advantage against the 2 opponents chasing him. Whenever they get too close to him, he lands some damage, burns some defensive CDs and then quickly heads to the next LOS so he can recover CDs while kiting. The opponents only have normal CCs to land against him. So with wise use of stability & stun breaks, he can ensure that he is never caught flat footed and completely out-mobilized. They may be able to slightly out-mobilize him, let's say it is a Thief and a Mesmer chasing him, but they can't completely out-mobilize him in the way that Warclaw play with Lance works, which we'll get into soon enough. The point being is that the kiting was manageable in these days. It made playing in outmanned situations FUN to do, because these situations were realistic to win in, if a player possessed the skill & knowledge to do so.

A SCENARIO AFTER WARCLAW WAS INTRODUCED, BEFORE LANCE WAS IMPLEMENTED:

1. The very same thing is happening. Now we have a Spellbreaker who is 1v2ing a Mirage and a Deadeye. Obviously he must kite & LOS to pull this off.
2. The difference here, is that in the previous scenario, if the Mirage & Deadeye wanted to keep pace or out-mobilize the Spellbreaker, they actually had to use their skill cool downs to do so, things like Blink & Shadowstep, regardless of if they were in combat or OOC. In the previous scenario, even if the Deadeye were to get OOC, he would still need to burn init on Rifle#4 and burn CD on Shadowstep to realistically catch up. In the previous scenario, everyone was being forced to rotate resources to do what they do, and as such it was balanced. But now with Warclaw, if the Deadeye straggles behind on purpose to OOC, while the Mirage keeps the Spellbreaker in combat, the Deadeye can mount and now very very easily catch up while not burning any character resources to do so. Are you paying here? I don't understand why I have to explain this to players who supposedly play this game mode. Now the Spellbreaker cannot OOC because 1 player is keeping him in combat. But any other players who are wise enough to straggle just long enough to OOC for that mount, are able to easily catch the Spellbreaker while using no resources, and then dismount while directly next to him, with full resources. This made it easier to catch roamers to begin with, if it was a 1vX situation or say a party of 5 vs. a squad of 10.
3. BUT AT LEAST if the Spellbreaker could manage to close a gap for a fast OOC, he could at least mount to match the mobility of the other players on mounts, and keep his disengage. Even if he was in enemy territory and moving more slowly, without Lance he could wisely use 3 dodges against even Power Mirage and DE damage output, to potentially keep moving. And each time they would attempt to dismount to burst him, they run the risk of going in combat and allowing him a large lead in disengage because he is still mounted. But with 2 people on him like that, he had better head to the next tower that his server owns or WP when he gets a chance, because with his decreased movement speed, they will be able to keep following him and attempting those bursts to dismount him, which realistically is not hard to do when you're pumping out 10k - 15k strikes from builds like Power Mirage or Rifle Deadeye.
4. Best case scenario, the quick Warclaw mount allows the Spellbreaker to get somewhere while his health resets, so he can continue the 1v2 and potentially win while under better environmental circumstances. A good example would be Alpine Borderlands North Supply Camps. Between all of the little buildings and the Vista jump, there is a lot of 1vX potential in that environment.

A SCENARIO WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF LANCE 1500 RANGE AND INSTANT DISMOUNT:

1. The very same scenario is being used here again. A Spellbreaker is 1v2ing a Mirage and a Deadeye.
2. Because of 1 opponent keeping the Spellbreaker in combat, while 1 OOCs to mount with Lance, even if the Spellbreaker manages a quick mount, because he is in enemy territory and moving a bit slower than the opponents, it is likely that he will not stay mounted long. The reason is simple: He cannot preserve his 3 dodge rolls for counter play vs. Lance because the dodge rolls must be used for speed boost. If he does not use them for speed boost, the opponents surely will use their dodges for speed boosts upon the fact that they are already moving more quickly. If he preserves his speed boost dodges only for counter play vs. Lance, it will be easy for the opponents to get ahead of him actually and flank him. So now he is forced to either (A) preserve dodges for counter play vs. Lance, in this case he runs the risk of two burst classes easily flanking him, dismounting and bursting as normal, which will dismount him coming from 2x DPS classes. And keep in mind that preserving those dodges is not a guarantee for dodging the Lance at all. He very well and probably will get hit with it anyway. Or (B) Use his speed boosts to make relative pace and run a greater risk of being hit by Lance, which is worse than if the opponents dismounted to burst the mount, because then they will still have their bursts when he dismounts, to instantly kill him. And the reason why the 1v2 is now imbalanced, is because in the first scenario, if they wanted to keep up with him, they had to burn character resources to do it. But now they preserve their resources while chasing him, and in fact have a super CC to instant dismount him upon that, and enter engagement with full resources.
3. The fact of the matter is that Lance is too much pressure for the outmanned. Warclaw in general was a lot of added pressure to the outmanned, but Lance is just too much. I'm not talking 1v1s, I'm talking about being outmanned. The problem comes in two phases: The first is mentioned about how Warclaw allows strong chase potential while not needing to use character resources to create that chase potential. The second is with Lance, which tactfully puts an escaping roamer into a situation where it is unrealistic to chose a counter play measure to actually ensure that the disengage has a realistic chance of working. Because of Lance, it is now much more likely that the roamer will always be caught. <- Again, this is making people not want to try during outmanned situations, because it is not fun to not be able to play around larger groups that are chasing you, whether it's 1vX or 5 vs 10, it's the same thing. People want to be able to KNOW that if they are smart about positioning, that it is possible to move around a map, avoid larger numbers, and get something done. But the way it stands now, if you are outmanned and they chase, you're going to get caught if you don't WP or run into an objective that you own, which leads to a ton of stagnation, no rewards, nothing is getting done, boring game mode. <- This is why the old roamers are disappearing, and maps are so barren because roamers are disappearing. It is not fun to grind against superior numbers when little to nothing can be achieved from it.
4. The other aspect that tips this issue towards large imbalance, is that literally anyone who is mounted can chase a roamer and do this now. Minstrel Firebrands, slow Necromancers, slow & low damage everything. At first I thought this was a good thing. But in the long haul I am seeing that this is removing the role of roamer, which was largely the bulk of WvW population for years, whether you want to admit that or not. The bulk of WvW population was people joining and sort of going around and doing what they wanted at the time. Maybe follow a PIN for awhile, but then veer off and run some supply camps, then maybe havoc around and target guys trying to take your supply camps. But now people join a map and don't want to try if they are outnumbered, because it's too easy to get clapped when 2 people are chasing you on Warclaws with Lance. So with a much lower influx of roamer play, our maps become empty, and there is nothing to work with even if you wanted to PIN up.

Roamers need to be able to 1vX again. Some of you may claim that no one should be able to win 1vXs, whatever. But they do need to be able to SURVIVE because when they can't, the game mode becomes unfun and then people don't stay & play.Yet despite these "inarguable" scenarios, there is more solo roaming warriors (spellbreakers) running around than ever.

I wonder why.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Yet despite these "inarguable" scenarios, there is more solo roaming warriors (spellbreakers) running around than ever.

I wonder why.

It's just a symptom of current meta rock/paper/scissors and optimization.

Spellbreakers counter Soulbeasts "Which are all over right now" due to mass hard CCs, lots of damage, reveal off Magebane, and mobility to make pace with the Ranger. The Spellbreaker, especially with PvE gear options, is also capable of going toe to toe vs. any class on equal ground without being countered.

^ This is the reason why there are a lot of Spellbreakers roaming. Whatever it is that you're implying there, has nothing to do with anything.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Yet despite these "inarguable" scenarios, there is more solo roaming warriors (spellbreakers) running around than ever.

I wonder why

.

It's just a symptom of current meta rock/paper/scissors and optimization.

Spellbreakers counter Soulbeasts "Which are all over right now" due to mass hard CCs, lots of damage, reveal off Magebane, and mobility to make pace with the Ranger. The Spellbreaker, especially with PvE gear options, is also capable of going toe to toe vs. any class on equal ground without being countered.

^ This is the reason why there are a lot of Spellbreakers roaming. Whatever it is that you're implying there, has nothing to do with anything.So what you are saying is that people choose roaming classes that counter other roaming classes based on the current meta, completely ignoring the warclaw?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Yet despite these "inarguable" scenarios, there is more solo roaming warriors (spellbreakers) running around than ever.

I wonder why

.

It's just a symptom of current meta rock/paper/scissors and optimization.

Spellbreakers counter Soulbeasts "Which are all over right now" due to mass hard CCs, lots of damage, reveal off Magebane, and mobility to make pace with the Ranger. The Spellbreaker, especially with PvE gear options, is also capable of going toe to toe vs. any class on equal ground without being countered.

^ This is the reason why there are a lot of Spellbreakers roaming. Whatever it is that you're implying there, has nothing to do with anything.So what you are saying is that people choose roaming classes that counter other roaming classes based on the current meta, completely ignoring the warclaw?

No. what I said was what I said and only what I said.

By the way, do you realize that you are doing this often in your responses? -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man tactics

It is no way to win an argument or stress your side of a discussion. In fact, the only thing this does ^ is spread a lot of misinformation and get people confused on what is being discussed to begin with.

So let's get back on topic, which is Lance granting too much snowbally power for larger groups vs. smaller groups.

After thinking about it more thoroughly, this is my full & well rounded suggestion:

1. Make Lance a 600 range 2s slow effect that does not dismount the rider who uses Lance.
2. Move the dismount skill to Warclaw #1. Now if the Lance hits, the 2s Slow should grant enough time for the chasing player to use a Warclaw #1 in attempts to dismount the Warclaw who is hit by Lance. Requiring a 2-Hit Combo for this instant dismount method is more reasonable in my opinion. The chasing player, if his Warclaw #1 misses, can of course continue to DPS burst thereof, still granting relatively high chances of a dismount anyway.
3. All of which grants the player being chased, much greater counter play for being able to leave bad situations where he is outmanned. It's not the old state of kiting that I truly miss, but this sure would help provide counter play in outmanned situations. Instant dismount upon a single Lance is too much stopping power for large groups vs. small.

In a game mode like WvW where there are varying differences in player numbers throughout the day, we need comeback mechanics that allow a losing end a way to launch a comeback. Those type of mechanics give players a reason to stay and play. The more that stay and play, the higher server populations become. What we do not need, are snowbally mechanics such as Lance, which allows an already winning end to win even harder. <- These kinds of mechanics make people not even want to try, and then server populations plummet. This is something for Arenanet to think about. Maybe implement a new Elite skill for Warclaw. Something that only activates during 2 to 1 outmanned situations, for a server who's players can't get anything done. Get creative. Add comeback mechanics rather than snowball mechanics.

~ Anyway, this is the last thing I have to say on this topic.

[Junkpile.7439]

I like warclaw. Gives me some chance to avoid these lame "roamers" and get back to real fight.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:By the way, do you realize that you are doing this often in your responses? -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man tacticsOn a topic based on the same strawman argument that the "spirit of roaming" is linked to the capacity of a character to fight 1vX and on the idea that the warclaw has changed the core of what roaming is - which definetly is not as simple as fighting 1vX - I find strawman reaponses to be suitable.

[Asuran.5469]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:On a topic based on the same strawman argument that the "spirit of roaming" is linked to the capacity of a character to fight 1vX and on the idea that the warclaw has changed the core of what roaming is - which definetly is not as simple as fighting 1vX - I find strawman reaponses to be suitable.

Um hrm well, you do realize that in all of your posts so far, you haven't actually said anything relevant on the discussion that OP posted, right?

Aside from that, I couldn't care either way about lance or no lance at this point.

[Kitta.5412]

OP is wrong. That's all.

[RedShark.9548]

I dont see how the lance particularily kittens you over when you are already infight...

When kiting you are usually already infight, otherwise you would be just running away, there is a difference.

So while infight you cant mount anyways, the problem i see is not the lance, but the mount itself, since when you kite a group some enemies will get out of combat and mount up, closing the distance again and reengage you with all their ppl again, making it impossible for ppl infight gaining any distance.

You also talked about your guild fighting 5v10+ and bursting zergs down.

What stops you now from doin that? Most likely you are engaging while stealthed (cant be mounted for that), you burst down your 10-15 ppl and try to run... Now again you are all infight and cant mount anyways, whats the lance doing now? You wont be able to run because the part of the zerg that didnt get hit can mount up and chase, closing the gap to kill you, while you are still infight.

And i have to agree with dawdler on the part that ppl in the good ol days widely didnt know what they were doing, so ppl who actually did had it easier to bust them.

Sure you had tryhards, but metabattle wasnt rly a thing and ppl in public zergs mostly ran own builds, not the metastuff that is all synergizing so well with each other and basically carries them.And dmg was much lower, so a smaller group wouldnt explode instantly when looked at by the remaining 35 players after they bursted 15 down.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I keep seeing several arguments about the idea that: "Kiting only happens while in combat." "When you are on Warclaw it is because you are out of combat, not in combat" "So therefore you cant be kiting while on a Warclaw, you are running away."

^ This is a ridiculous argument. First of all, kiting opponents is kiting opponents. If opponents are chasing you and you are moving away from them so that you can better position for a counter offnse, you are kiting opponents. I don't care if it technically is in combat or out of combat under GW2 terms, kiting opponents is kiting opponents, especially when they are moving faster than you in their own territory. I don't care if you OOC briefly enough to mount, if you plan on running the Warclaw up around a ledge and dismounting to bottleneck 2 opponents into a small area so you can damage both of them at the same time, it's still kiting according to game terminology definition, regardless of how in/out of combat works in GW2.

So if you want to keep bumping this thread, let's hit the nail on the head here and discuss the mechanical statistics of lance, rather than getting caught up on this "is it kiting if it's ooc?" that's like if a group of people started a discussion about how a car engine works, but then some guy shows up and starts injecting comments about why he thinks the car was painted red. It's off topic, it's irrelevant, it has nothing to do the mechanics behind the engine discussed.

[Junkpile.7439]

Well whole mount is problem. If you try to harass enemy blob they will kill you every time if i don't play thief or mesmer. You can't get away anymore because you are in combat.

[Svarty.8019]

@Kitta.5412 said:OP is wrong. That's all.

OP is right. That's all.