Balance patch preview - engi only

[Dirame.8521]

Based on my understanding of these changes, it seems to me that Condi is going to be the best spec for the time being because Condi damage is untouched.Condition duration is tweaked but not to the point of not being worth it.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Dirame.8521 said:Based on my understanding of these changes, it seems to me that Condi is going to be the best spec for the time being because Condi damage is untouched.Condition duration is tweaked but not to the point of not being worth it.Oh you better read closer then. Condi engie is heavily nerfed.

Its not just the half stack/double duration of blowtorch thats changing, net zero loss in theory but in WvW where burst is important it may be a spec killer compared to other condi options, but that depends on overall sustain and condi nerfs of other classes, whether it can compete.

They are gimping firearms as well, less burn crits, now worthless bleed crits, less burn duration.

And thats not even mentioning alchemy and tools sustain nerfs on top (sustain is kind of important the longer your condis take to work), which hits core condi using tools particularly hard (since the others are usually firearms+alchemy).

If they bring the PvP rune changes in, some condi specs are probably looking at ~50% less damage.

Again though, and I cant stress this enough - we dont know how the classes will interact until the patch hits (and even then not until 1-2 weeks after when players have adjusted).

[Dirame.8521]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Dirame.8521 said:Based on my understanding of these changes, it seems to me that Condi is going to be the best spec for the time being because Condi damage is untouched.Condition duration is tweaked but not to the point of not being worth it.Oh you better read closer then. Condi engie is

heavily

nerfed.

Its not just the half stack/double duration of blowtorch thats changing, net zero loss in theory but in WvW where burst is important it may be a spec killer compared to other condi options, but that depends on overall sustain and condi nerfs of other classes, whether it can compete.

They are gimping firearms as well, less burn crits, now worthless bleed crits, less burn duration.

And thats not even mentioning alchemy and tools sustain nerfs on top (sustain is

kind of

important the longer your condis take to work), which hits core condi using tools particularly hard (since the others are usually firearms+alchemy).

If they bring the PvP rune changes in, some condi specs are probably looking at ~50% less damage.

Again though, and I cant stress this enough - we dont know how the classes will interact until the patch hits (and even then not until 1-2 weeks after when players have adjusted).

Indeed we can't possibly know. But if all they are doing is reducing the effectiveness of passive procs and keeping many active ways of application then, all in all condos still come out on top because of the 'hit once' system it has. At least at the beginning. The easiest thing to play will be condi specs. Just estimating anyways.

[coro.3176]

@"Dirame.8521" said:Indeed we can't possibly know. But if all they are doing is reducing the effectiveness of passive procs and keeping many active ways of application then, all in all condos still come out on top because of the 'hit once' system it has. At least at the beginning. The easiest thing to play will be condi specs. Just estimating anyways.

.. but they're not just nerfing the passive procs. They're also cutting the dps of condi engi's main damaging skill in half. That's huge.

Also, I've never understood this "hit once" thing people say about conditions. Power damage also only hits you once. It just all applies instantly.

Condi requires you to play at closer range, land your burst more times (because your target will cleanse your entire burst repeatedly), have better defense/sustain (because your target stays alive longer).

On Engi in particular, you cannot just spam conditions and hope it works. You need to pay close attention to which conditions are being applied at any given time and make sure you aren't reapplying your damaging condi only for it to get cleansed.

[Dirame.8521]

@coro.3176 said:

@"Dirame.8521" said:Indeed we can't possibly know. But if all they are doing is reducing the effectiveness of passive procs and keeping many active ways of application then, all in all condos still come out on top because of the 'hit once' system it has. At least at the beginning. The easiest thing to play will be condi specs. Just estimating anyways.

.. but they're not just nerfing the passive procs. They're also cutting the dps of condi engi's main damaging skill

in half

. That's huge.

Also, I've never understood this "hit once" thing people say about conditions. Power damage also only hits you once. It just all applies instantly.

Condi requires you to play at closer range, land your burst more times (because your target will cleanse your entire burst repeatedly), have better defense/sustain (because your target stays alive longer).

On Engi in particular, you cannot just spam conditions and hope it works. You need to pay close attention to

which

conditions are being applied at any given time and make sure you aren't reapplying your damaging condi only for it to get cleansed.

When you say main damaging skill you mean the trait in Firearms Incendiary Ammo? Even without that, I think we Condi would still be best at least at the start due to it's ability to allow tankiness whilst being highly damaging at the same time.

[coro.3176]

@Dirame.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Dirame.8521 said:Indeed we can't possibly know. But if all they are doing is reducing the effectiveness of passive procs and keeping many active ways of application then, all in all condos still come out on top because of the 'hit once' system it has. At least at the beginning. The easiest thing to play will be condi specs. Just estimating anyways.

.. but they're not just nerfing the passive procs. They're also cutting the dps of condi engi's main damaging skill

in half

. That's huge.

Also, I've never understood this "hit once" thing people say about conditions. Power damage also only hits you once. It just all applies instantly.

Condi requires you to play at closer range, land your burst more times (because your target will cleanse your entire burst repeatedly), have better defense/sustain (because your target stays alive longer).

On Engi in particular, you cannot just spam conditions and hope it works. You need to pay close attention to

which

conditions are being applied at any given time and make sure you aren't reapplying your damaging condi only for it to get cleansed.

When you say main damaging skill you mean the trait in Firearms Incendiary Ammo? Even without that, I think we Condi would still be best at least at the start due to it's ability to allow tankiness whilst being highly damaging at the same time.

No, I mean Blowtorch, the offhand pistol skill. It currently does 4 stacks of burn. It's being reduced to 2.

It is THE skill you want to land as a condi engi. Your game plan is to land blowtorch, then frantically scramble to cover it with other condi. Without that punch, condi engi is not going to be very threatening.

[Dirame.8521]

@coro.3176 said:

@Dirame.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Dirame.8521 said:Indeed we can't possibly know. But if all they are doing is reducing the effectiveness of passive procs and keeping many active ways of application then, all in all condos still come out on top because of the 'hit once' system it has. At least at the beginning. The easiest thing to play will be condi specs. Just estimating anyways.

.. but they're not just nerfing the passive procs. They're also cutting the dps of condi engi's main damaging skill

in half

. That's huge.

Also, I've never understood this "hit once" thing people say about conditions. Power damage also only hits you once. It just all applies instantly.

Condi requires you to play at closer range, land your burst more times (because your target will cleanse your entire burst repeatedly), have better defense/sustain (because your target stays alive longer).

On Engi in particular, you cannot just spam conditions and hope it works. You need to pay close attention to

which

conditions are being applied at any given time and make sure you aren't reapplying your damaging condi only for it to get cleansed.

When you say main damaging skill you mean the trait in Firearms Incendiary Ammo? Even without that, I think we Condi would still be best at least at the start due to it's ability to allow tankiness whilst being highly damaging at the same time.

No, I mean Blowtorch, the offhand pistol skill. It currently does 4 stacks of burn. It's being reduced to 2.

It is

THE

skill you want to land as a condi engi. Your game plan is to land blowtorch, then frantically scramble to cover it with other condi. Without that punch, condi engi is not going to be very threatening.

I guess that is where we disagree. I don't see blow torch as THAT necessary. It is bursty, definitely but it is not the most important to the feel of being a threat. Incendiary Powder or Ammo trait is actually more important than it.

I rate reapplication speed higher than amount of stacks and even duration. That's why I said the above statement. We can build up stacks easily if we can re-apply conditions as quickly as they are cleansed.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Dirame.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Dirame.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Dirame.8521 said:Indeed we can't possibly know. But if all they are doing is reducing the effectiveness of passive procs and keeping many active ways of application then, all in all condos still come out on top because of the 'hit once' system it has. At least at the beginning. The easiest thing to play will be condi specs. Just estimating anyways.

.. but they're not just nerfing the passive procs. They're also cutting the dps of condi engi's main damaging skill

in half

. That's huge.

Also, I've never understood this "hit once" thing people say about conditions. Power damage also only hits you once. It just all applies instantly.

Condi requires you to play at closer range, land your burst more times (because your target will cleanse your entire burst repeatedly), have better defense/sustain (because your target stays alive longer).

On Engi in particular, you cannot just spam conditions and hope it works. You need to pay close attention to

which

conditions are being applied at any given time and make sure you aren't reapplying your damaging condi only for it to get cleansed.

When you say main damaging skill you mean the trait in Firearms Incendiary Ammo? Even without that, I think we Condi would still be best at least at the start due to it's ability to allow tankiness whilst being highly damaging at the same time.

No, I mean Blowtorch, the offhand pistol skill. It currently does 4 stacks of burn. It's being reduced to 2.

It is

THE

skill you want to land as a condi engi. Your game plan is to land blowtorch, then frantically scramble to cover it with other condi. Without that punch, condi engi is not going to be very threatening.

I guess that is where we disagree. I don't see blow torch as THAT necessary. It is bursty, definitely but it is not the most important to the feel of being a threat. Incendiary Powder or Ammo trait is actually more important than it.

I rate reapplication speed higher than amount of stacks and even duration. That's why I said the above statement. We can build up stacks easily if we can re-apply conditions as quickly as they are cleansed.

And unlike blowtorch where you get half stacks and double duration (with 3s longer cd), incendiary powder get 50% less duration on its burn and 23% less burn duration overall, also your bleeds get 18% less total duration and your crit bleed durations cut by 75%. So its your reapplication speed thats heavily nerfed. Imagine that. I dont think you read the patch notes. If you use tools your F skill cds are also getting increased (like ft burn), as is toolkit prybar cd (ie your main source of confusion burst)

And if you dont see blowtorch as critical, you're not playing a pvp/wvw engie. It really is the skill you need connect to pressure people. Without it a condi engie is little threat to power builds that can kill it in seconds and absolutely no competition to any other condi class except maybe a longbow warrior or something.

[Dirame.8521]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Dirame.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Dirame.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Dirame.8521 said:Indeed we can't possibly know. But if all they are doing is reducing the effectiveness of passive procs and keeping many active ways of application then, all in all condos still come out on top because of the 'hit once' system it has. At least at the beginning. The easiest thing to play will be condi specs. Just estimating anyways.

.. but they're not just nerfing the passive procs. They're also cutting the dps of condi engi's main damaging skill

in half

. That's huge.

Also, I've never understood this "hit once" thing people say about conditions. Power damage also only hits you once. It just all applies instantly.

Condi requires you to play at closer range, land your burst more times (because your target will cleanse your entire burst repeatedly), have better defense/sustain (because your target stays alive longer).

On Engi in particular, you cannot just spam conditions and hope it works. You need to pay close attention to

which

conditions are being applied at any given time and make sure you aren't reapplying your damaging condi only for it to get cleansed.

When you say main damaging skill you mean the trait in Firearms Incendiary Ammo? Even without that, I think we Condi would still be best at least at the start due to it's ability to allow tankiness whilst being highly damaging at the same time.

No, I mean Blowtorch, the offhand pistol skill. It currently does 4 stacks of burn. It's being reduced to 2.

It is

THE

skill you want to land as a condi engi. Your game plan is to land blowtorch, then frantically scramble to cover it with other condi. Without that punch, condi engi is not going to be very threatening.

I guess that is where we disagree. I don't see blow torch as THAT necessary. It is bursty, definitely but it is not the most important to the feel of being a threat. Incendiary Powder or Ammo trait is actually more important than it.

I rate reapplication speed higher than amount of stacks and even duration. That's why I said the above statement. We can build up stacks easily if we can re-apply conditions as quickly as they are cleansed.

And unlike blowtorch where you get half stacks and double duration (with 3s longer cd), incendiary powder get 50% less duration on its burn and 23% less burn duration overall, also your bleeds get 18% less total duration and your crit bleed durations cut by 75%. So

its your reapplication speed thats heavily nerfed

. Imagine that. I dont think you read the patch notes. If you use tools your F skill cds are also getting increased (like ft burn), as is toolkit prybar cd (ie your main source of confusion burst)

I didn't say reapplication speed isn't getting nerfed. I just feel that the nerfs are warranted but we can achieve a good reapplication speed without those dependencies.

And if you dont see blowtorch as critical, you're not playing a pvp/wvw engie. It really is the skill you need connect to pressure people. Without it a condi engie is little threat to power builds that can kill it in seconds and absolutely no competition to any other condi class except maybe a longbow warrior or something.

I am sorry I don't obey such arbitrary laws constructed by people who flip like the changing winds when some streamer decides to win a couple of mats without off-hand pistol.If that's your Status quo, good on you! It is definitely not mine.

[Infusion.7149]

Do people actually enjoy condi engi?

More on topic, I think scrapper is going to remain a staple in WvW post patch. Guardian losing the full potency of merciful intervention makes function gyro more attractive. Scrappers can also apply stability / block projectiles with bulwark gyro, stealth gyro, cleanse with elixir gun/med kit/heal turret/purge gyro, and make stability largely go away with Thunderclap which doubles as static field on hammer.

[Hynax.9536]

@Infusion.7149 said:Do people actually enjoy condi engi?

More on topic, I think scrapper is going to remain a staple in WvW post patch. Guardian losing the full potency of merciful intervention makes function gyro more attractive. Scrappers can also apply stability / block projectiles with bulwark gyro, stealth gyro, cleanse with elixir gun/med kit/heal turret/purge gyro, and make stability largely go away with Thunderclap which doubles as static field on hammer.

Sure enough scrapper sup has its place and will be maybe even more necessary than before in squads, but i can't say scrapper dps gyros will hold its position, tho none of its damage modifiers were affected, losing blast gyro gutted a good slice of its total damage and for consequence less barrier being generated, but then all professions lost good damaging skills due to it also having CC so we will really have to wait the patch to try and see what can be salvaged.

About condi, can't say it is the most played build i see in wvw.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Infusion.7149" said:Do people actually enjoy condi engi?Same question as "do people actually enjoy minstrel firebrand?"

It takes a special kind of people, clearly.

In regards to the healer scrapper, you're loosing a chunk of healing with the patch (medkit nerf, heal share nerf, heal gyro cd increase etc). Not enough to offset what other things it bring I think, ie stealth field and projectile block etc, but still.

[Exalted Quality.8534]

i think they forgot that engis were the prime target of the last nerfs lmao

[Infusion.7149]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:Do people actually enjoy condi engi?Same question as "do people actually enjoy minstrel firebrand?"

It takes a special kind of people, clearly.

In regards to the healer scrapper, you're loosing a chunk of healing with the patch (medkit nerf, heal share nerf, heal gyro cd increase etc). Not enough to offset what other things it bring I think, ie stealth field and projectile block etc, but still.

I feel that anything without burning is quite slow (see weaver/firebrand which are more common), unless it's mirage with multiple clones pushing out conditions alongside the player. With flamethrower there's a shot at pushing out burning but the stacks don't build quickly due to the attack rate and the range is far lower. Even on core necro it takes a while if something isn't corrupted unless you pop into shroud with dhuumfire, whereas scourge has the shades (which are pretty lame in PvP now) that are just going to apply torment once this balance overhaul drops which also can do burning with demonic lore. With bleeding/poison it feels as though you're going for attrition which is more suited for necro; some evasive thieves with dagger or formerly also sword ; shortbow or dagger ranger. Except engineer has fewer condi stacks so it takes even longer ; grenades take time to land and only poison grenade has multiple stacks while on 25 cooldown.

Minstrel FB feels more active to me than med kit scrapper due to tome cooldowns and mantra charges. Also camping med kit basically means no tagging enemies which leads to much less wxp/drops/participation ; unlike reflect bubble the defense field doesn't help you there either. Cleanses weren't touched on scrappers so running dps gyros with elixir gun or bulwark gyro instead of blast gyro is viable. Your utilities are more flexible in that sense because you wouldn't be camping med kit.: i.e. shredder gyro,purge gyro and/or elixir gun , bulwark gyro for the bubble/stability, stealth gyro/mortar. Elixir B (stability) and to a much lesser extent Elixir U (superspeed) also work but the superspeed from gyros is wanted more. With the changes the throw mine skill might see use due to ranged 3 boon rip.

The med kit outgoing percentage was nerfed from 20 to 7% but the major thing is other than heralds' facets boon uptime will be far lower making the med kit 1 (med blaster) less potent by far more than that. The nerf to bunker down is also quite heavy handed though offmeta, it's double the cooldown for WvW.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Infusion.7149 said:The med kit outgoing percentage was nerfed from 20 to 7% but the major thing is other than heralds' facets boon uptime will be far lower making the med kit 1 (med blaster) less potent by far more than that. The nerf to bunker down is also quite heavy handed though offmeta, it's double the cooldown for WvW.Not just that, in case you missed it - medkit 1 now has 50% less hp coefficient (not related to the 7% outgoing nerf), MDF has 50% less healing, super elixir 25% less pulse heal and 50% less hp coefficient plus all the boon conversion and regen share cut by ~50% (varies).

Not sure why you say bunker down doubles the cd, its a 33% increase (3->4s).

[Infusion.7149]

The WvW preview patchnotes are copied verbatim from PvP game mode notes. Bunker down is 2s in WvW currently , it's a skill split between PVE+WVW and PVP. If you don't believe me you can check it yourself ingame.

Anyway, I loathe spamming med kit 1 which is why if I need to play support in WvW most of the time it is on FB. I don't even run full minstrel half the time because added boon duration isn't as useful as pushing out minor damage when the group you're in is small plus regen doesn't help as much vs the high damage existing currently. Stats like marshals push out as much healing power from Battle Presence , mace autos, tome heals, and staff heals ; using monk runes has boon duration so it isn't all lost.

[Chaith.8256]

In my opinion they need to add at least a small stability source to Holosmith somewhere.

Every elite spec that's not for slippery Thief/Mes/Rev has stability worked in. Even ranged casters like Scourge. Druid gets a few stacks during its celestial avatar #5 channel. A melee spec with very low avoidance and not a lick of stability found anywhere on its exclusive traits or utilities, wack.

A stability IMO should be worked into these skills and balanced accordingly:

• Spectrum Shield or Flash Spark Toolbelt skill
• Light Density Amplifier trait
• Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit when over 100 heat.

With weaver, there are a lot of parallels.They removed stability from stances which is the same treatment as Holo. They added stability back to Lava skin and was inconsistent with adding back a source to Holo

[bambi.6214]

@"Chaith.8256" said:In my opinion they need to add at least a small stability source to Holosmith somewhere.

Every elite spec that's not for slippery Thief/Mes/Rev has stability worked in. Even ranged casters like Scourge. Druid gets a few stacks during its celestial avatar #5 channel. A melee spec with very low avoidance and not a lick of stability found anywhere on its exclusive traits or utilities, wack.

A stability IMO should be worked into these skills and balanced accordingly:

• Spectrum Shield or Flash Spark Toolbelt skill
• Light Density Amplifier trait
• Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit when over 100 heat.

With weaver, there are a lot of parallels.They removed stability from stances which is the same treatment as Holo. They added stability back to Lava skin and was inconsistent with adding back a source to Holo

Good suggestions, but I think it's core which should get more stability, holo could benefit from that. Right now the only reliable source of stability on core is Elixirs and Juggernaut (meh). A grandmaster trait in Tools: "gain 2 stacks of stability for 4 seconds on weapon swap" with ICD of, say, 20 seconds, would benefit both holo (as entering and leaving p-forge counts as weapon swap) and playing with kits.

Engi in general should get more traits related to weapon swap as it's the profession's quite unique mechanic - kits allow us to weapon swap whenever we want to without punishment.

[insanemaniac.2456]

@"Samug.6512" said:Good suggestions, but I think it's core which should get more stability, holo could benefit from that. Right now the only reliable source of stability on core is Elixirs and Juggernaut (meh). A grandmaster trait in Tools: "gain 2 stacks of stability for 4 seconds on weapon swap" with ICD of, say, 20 seconds, would benefit both holo (as entering and leaving p-forge counts as weapon swap) and playing with kits.

Basically random proc (after the first use) is something I think we all want less of in this game, yes?

[Dawdler.8521]

@Infusion.7149 said:The WvW preview patchnotes are copied verbatim from PvP game mode notes. Bunker down is 2s in WvW currently , it's a skill split between PVE+WVW and PVP. If you don't believe me you can check it yourself ingame.Hm I thought that had already been pvp balanced but you're correct.

[Vagrant.7206]

@insanemaniac.2456 said:

@"Samug.6512" said:Good suggestions, but I think it's core which should get more stability, holo could benefit from that. Right now the only reliable source of stability on core is Elixirs and Juggernaut (meh). A grandmaster trait in Tools:

"gain 2 stacks of stability for 4 seconds on weapon swap"

with ICD of, say, 20 seconds, would benefit both holo (as entering and leaving p-forge counts as weapon swap) and playing with kits.

Basically random proc (after the first use) is something I think we all want less of in this game, yes?

Weapon swap isn't a random proc.

[Chaith.8256]

@Vagrant.7206 said:Weapon swap isn't a random proc.

I agree that it 'basically' is random, this is because playing Engineer and constantly hitting buttons that count as a weapon swap, it is very hard to know exactly which kit swap will be granting stability at the 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 second mark. Like, I know roughly but never with certainty. You'd have to be mentally counting to 20 or something.. a visual add-on to track it would be nice, but GW2 lacks that. For me, it basically is random during the heat of a 30 second fight.

Edit: that's why I'm not in favor of stability on weapon swap. I much prefer it being tied to a specific ability that's instant like Defense Field for once - a little annoyed with the previous Engineer cast times on Stability (Toss Elixir B, traited Corona Burst, Function Gyro.) It's too ironic for me to die in a CC lock while attempting to prevent a CC lock.

[coro.3176]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Weapon swap isn't a random proc.

I agree that it 'basically' is random, this is because playing Engineer and constantly hitting buttons that count as a weapon swap, it is very hard to know exactly which kit swap will be granting stability at the 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 second mark. Like, I know roughly but never with certainty. You'd have to be mentally counting to 20 or something.. a visual add-on to track it would be nice, but GW2 lacks that. For me, it basically is random during the heat of a 30 second fight.

Edit: that's why I'm not in favor of stability on weapon swap. I much prefer it being tied to a specific ability that's instant like Defense Field for once - a little annoyed with the previous Engineer cast times on Stability (Toss Elixir B, traited Corona Burst, Function Gyro.) It's too ironic for me to die in a CC lock while attempting to prevent a CC lock.

I am kind of mentally counting to 20 for https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Streamlined_Kits .

I mean, I'm not doing it explicitly, but I typically have a gut feeling when it's been long enough since the last proc and I can swap to eg. Toolkit for the superspeed proc I need. Streamlined kits also shows up on your buff bar, so it could work like that. (but yes, this means you can't really save the stability for when you need it. It'd be less on demand and more opportunistic.)

I'm also mildly against adding stability though. I don't think it's a very Engineer-appropriate boon. I would much prefer more vigor so we can dodge the CC before it happens rather than face-tank it like a Warrior or Guardian. Scrapper could probably do with some more stab, but not Holo or Core.

[Chaith.8256]

@coro.3176 said:I'm also mildly against adding stability though. I don't think it's a very Engineer-appropriate boon. I would much prefer more vigor so we can dodge the CC before it happens rather than face-tank it like a Warrior or Guardian. Scrapper could probably do with some more stab, but not Holo or Core.

Stability is an Engineer appropriate boon. What is your reasoning why not? This is the class that has a thematic trait called Juggernaut where the aesthetic is a permanent-stability wrecking ball - sure it is not good because it requires just spamming Flamethrower #1, but it is iconic. Scrapper and Holo have both had high uptimes of stability ever since their debut. It's just been Holo that's had the stability nosedive, from perma stability in forge on release, then it took some reductions, then required a successful hit, then got removed. I'm in favor of nerfs but not full removal.

Just for the record, stability is not a Necro, Thief, Mes, ShiroRev appropriate boon, that's just due to current Health levels, teleporting, and evade up-time of those classes. Engineer is not a high HP wall that gets healbotted and ressed, instant mobility out of a bad situation, or on the high end of evading all incoming damage. A clutch stability to avoid your defensive cooldowns being bypassed is a big component of Holo's survival in a team setting vs. multiple enemies because you don't have the previous 3 options which non-stability classes rely on.

Edit: Lack of stability is going to push Holo into very tanky builds. This is because if you can't rely on stability to be able to cast your defensive skills (Toss Elixir S, Hard Light Arena, Heal Skill. If you can rely on a tanky amulet & traits so you're still alive to cast stealth, prot, and heal, then people will do that. It's gonna be complained about more, just wait :astonished:

[coro.3176]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@coro.3176 said:I'm also mildly against adding stability though. I don't think it's a very Engineer-appropriate boon. I would much prefer more vigor so we can dodge the CC before it happens rather than face-tank it like a Warrior or Guardian. Scrapper could probably do with some more stab, but not Holo or Core.

Stability is an Engineer appropriate boon. What is your reasoning why not? This is the class that has a thematic trait called Juggernaut where the aesthetic is a permanent-stability wrecking ball - sure it is not good because it requires just spamming Flamethrower #1, but it is iconic. Scrapper and Holo have both had high uptimes of stability ever since their debut. It's just been Holo that's had the stability nosedive, from perma stability in forge on release, then it took some reductions, then required a successful hit, then got removed. I'm in favor of nerfs but not full removal.

Aside from Juggernaut, which is kind of its own playstyle (and has never been a very effective one), I always found Core Engi to encourage dodges as a response to CC/damage rather stability. Stuff like:

• Bomb/mines on dodge with explosives
• Vigor on toolbelt skill use and 50% endurance regen in tools
• Most weapon/kit skills not requiring a channel or long animation
• Engi being kind of squishy and not suited to tanking big hits

I dunno. It's not a strong feeling, just how I've always preferred to play it.

Scrapper is different because it's supposed to be in the middle of everything being tanky and getting hit. It should have stab. It especially needs stab now that it needs to keep doing damage to maintain its sustain.

Just for the record, stability is not a Necro, Thief, Mes, ShiroRev appropriate boon, that's just due to current Health levels, teleporting, and evade up-time of those classes. Engineer is not a high HP wall that gets healbotted and ressed, instant mobility out of a bad situation, or on the high end of evading all incoming damage. A clutch stability to avoid your defensive cooldowns being bypassed is a big component of Holo's survival in a team setting vs. multiple enemies because you don't have the previous 3 options which non-stability classes rely on.

Yeah.. I see the argument for it, but I would have preferred if Holo didn't have stab and was more of a high risk glass cannon rather than a 1vX bruiser wrecking-ball it actually tends to play like. That is: Holo's response to being in a bad situation should be to attempt escape (Rocket Boots, Acid Bomb, Holo Leap, Jump Shot, Elixir S), or go down swinging and try and take some of them with you.