Balance patch preview - engi only

[Vagrant.7206]

@coro.3176 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@coro.3176 said:I'm also mildly against adding stability though. I don't think it's a very Engineer-appropriate boon. I would much prefer more vigor so we can dodge the CC before it happens rather than face-tank it like a Warrior or Guardian. Scrapper could probably do with some more stab, but not Holo or Core.Just for the record, stability is not a Necro, Thief, Mes, ShiroRev appropriate boon, that's just due to current Health levels, teleporting, and evade up-time of those classes. Engineer is not a high HP wall that gets healbotted and ressed, instant mobility out of a bad situation, or on the high end of evading all incoming damage. A clutch stability to avoid your defensive cooldowns being bypassed is a big component of Holo's survival in a team setting vs. multiple enemies because you don't have the previous 3 options which non-stability classes rely on.

Yeah.. I see the argument for it, but I would have preferred if Holo didn't have stab and was more of a high risk glass cannon rather than a 1vX bruiser wrecking-ball it actually tends to play like. That is: Holo's response to being in a bad situation should be to attempt escape (Rocket Boots, Acid Bomb, Holo Leap, Jump Shot, Elixir S), or go down swinging and try and take some of them with you.

Compare engineer's escape tools with a lot of other classes. It just doesn't stack up -- no evade frames, no z-axis teleports, no defenses built into them. We are meant to stay in the fight, and are only really able to escape from classes that are slower than us (IE Necro). Nearly every other class has no trouble keeping up with us. Holo has to stay in the fight to win it, and stability is kind of critical to that unless we can keep our distance and plug enemies.

• Classes that can chase us down with ease: Warrior, Revenant, Thief, Ranger, Mesmer
• Classes that can chase us down with some difficulty: Guardian, Ele
• Classes that struggle to chase us down: Necro

[Strider.7849]

@Hynax.9536 said:

@Samug.6512 said:

• Crystal Configuration: Eclipse: This trait no longer causes Corona Burst to grant stability. Increased base barrier granted from 374 to 991 in PvE and 748 in competitiveR.I.P my poor holosmith...

To be fair this is what the engineer forum wanted.

As a ranger main - ages ago when holo was at its strongest - I was highly against the nerf to holographic shockwave range being so harsh, and believed it should have only been reduced to 400-450 range. I could foresee that they would take away either from its sustain or its ability to be in melee (they did so through removing stability).

Now what's left of Holo is it's going to become a decent single target burst damage character with limited options to stay in melee combat. When I spoke out I ended up just getting attacked by this engineer forum which seems to be cannibalistic. Your kits are garbage and beyond outdated, all turrets except healing turret are trash, and your potions are mostly a joke (except elixir S). Gadgets.. other than rocket boots.... Lol.

I didn't want engineers one remaining spec that offered great team control, especially in outnumbered situations to lose that unique ability in combat (talking WvW here as PvP isnt even real PvP based around who can hold dumb nodes).

Now you guys are going to be a single target DPS with limited ability to stay in melee and offer nothing that any other class can do better (in terms of participating in roaming). Essentially a crap version of warrior.

GG engineers, on killing your own class.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Strider.7849 said:

@Hynax.9536 said:

@Samug.6512 said:

• Crystal Configuration: Eclipse: This trait no longer causes Corona Burst to grant stability. Increased base barrier granted from 374 to 991 in PvE and 748 in competitiveR.I.P my poor holosmith...GG engineers, on killing your own class.

The self-righteousness is strong with this one... Sheesh.

Here's a tip: None of us are actually responsible for game balance.

[Hynax.9536]

@Strider.7849 said:GG engineers, on killing your own class.

If you ever wandered over this forum you would realise how the devs don't even poke around here, they probably don't even play with engineer and all buffs and nerfs feels like they're throwing dices and changing numbers. Toxic people are everywhere in the forum, if this was enough reason for anything, no profession would be playable now.

[Chaith.8256]

@coro.3176 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:Holo's response to being in a bad situation should be to attempt escape (Rocket Boots, Acid Bomb, Holo Leap, Jump Shot, Elixir S), or go down swinging and try and take some of them with you.

It's not about just escaping a bad situation, more so about being able to reliably cycle your defensive cooldowns as intended without dying prematurely.

So I would like to discuss solely about how well Holo can go down swinging, as you put it.

Holo's decent disengage is another topic, it'd be relevant here if it was what Engineer was excellent at doing

[LilBiM.3581]

To be fair to some people here I don't think that it was just Engineers who are solely at fault for the state of the recommendations placed here. There are some external forces that, after experiencing some challenges in PvP/WvW, placing their suggestions here to great effect.

Maybe something good will come out of the ashes. While I realize that this isn't a very productive post, I also assume that when you hit the bottom the only way left to go is up (or sideways under a rug).

At the same time I don't hold any hopes of things improving in the long run since forum-warriors have a history of successfully burying this class with ill-informed suggestions. Long term health of this class is, in my experience, trending downwards.

In a desperate attempt to feel more productive; I could agree with others who posted before me and say that Engineer was, traditionally, meant to stay in the fight and brawl it out. You committed or someone committed onto you and you fought it out.. till someone died or they ran away. Perhaps these changes to overall damage will allow the Engineer to do just that however Engineer does require a form of sustain (maybe the changes to Explosives will do?) that it is currently sorely lacking (previously gained from Backpack Regen, Healing Bombs, etc).

I'm not saying to bring ye old Engineer back but if there is to be an Engineer, whatever it becomes, they should consider gearing it completely towards that goal (skills, traits, weapons etc).

[Chaith.8256]

@Strider.7849 said:Now what's left of Holo is it's going to become a decent single target burst damage character with limited options to stay in melee combat. When I spoke out I ended up just getting attacked by this engineer forum which seems to be cannibalistic. Your kits are garbage and beyond outdated, all turrets except healing turret are trash, and your potions are mostly a joke (except elixir S). Gadgets.. other than rocket boots.... Lol.

Interesting prediction, I do not share your perspective on a few things. Now in no way is my response here intended to cannibalize you, not sure exactly what that's about.

Now what's left of Holo is it's going to become a decent single target burst damage character with limited options to stay in melee combat.

• I don't know about that, chief. Holosmith has always been about the AoE Cleave baby. My educated prediction for holo for the upcoming patch is that it will be playing like a highly tanky, sustained AoE damage class, doubling as a duelist. People will be grabbing those Paladin amulets and defensive traitlines.

Your kits are garbage and beyond outdated.

• We will indeed see about that. Every skill bar is having its damage reduced by 30-50%. However, kits keep their damage, and explosives trait line rework is happening, with net buffs, synergy mostly with Grenades & Bombs. We will see, let's catch up in two weeks and see how these posts have aged. :relaxed:

Gadgets.. other than rocket boots.... Lol.

• Throw Mine is getting some buffs. With a point-blank attack, a traited Throw Mine removes 6 (3x2) boons while CC'ing. Safe bet that's going to put a reliable stop to reviving.

All turrets except healing turret are trash

• Don't sleep on Thumper Turret and Supply Crate (technically a turret) will be getting buffs and play from me on Core Engineer after the patch.

Your potions are mostly a joke (except elixir S)

• I'm going to go ahead and say that NO elixirs are a joke. Some are sub optimal, but decent, like C, and R. However, Elixir S, U, B, X, and the passive Elixir B, C, and E are seen on virtually every Engi spec.

I think you just need a hug, don't be in the dumps, this next patch will overall be awesome and be good for Engineer build diversity

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Chaith.8256 said:Just for the record, stability is not a Necro

stab is absolutely a necro thing but unfortunately anet agrees with you. they are built around face tanking so why not have stab? doesn't make any sense...

[MrForz.1953]

@Strider.7849 said:

@Hynax.9536 said:

@Samug.6512 said:

• Crystal Configuration: Eclipse: This trait no longer causes Corona Burst to grant stability. Increased base barrier granted from 374 to 991 in PvE and 748 in competitiveR.I.P my poor holosmith...

To be fair this is what the engineer forum wanted.

Yeah, you bet. The alternative were nerfs to Alchemy and Tools.

As a ranger main - ages ago when holo was at its strongest - I was highly against the nerf to holographic shockwave range being so harsh, and believed it should have only been reduced to 400-450 range. I could foresee that they would take away either from its sustain or its ability to be in melee (they did so through removing stability).This is so nice of you.Now what's left of Holo is it's going to become a decent single target burst damage character with limited options to stay in melee combat. When I spoke out I ended up just getting attacked by this engineer forum which seems to be cannibalistic. Your kits are garbage and beyond outdated, all turrets except healing turret are trash, and your potions are mostly a joke (except elixir S). Gadgets.. other than rocket boots.... Lol.I'm not sure where you're seeing attacks. You do seem a bit too passionate about this though. Kits haven't exactly been touched while everything got carpet bombed with nerfs so there's a silver lining. I wouldn't judge elixirs or gadgets too harshly as some potions have their uses and some gadgets, namely Slick Shoes for my particular case can be surprisingly good. Can't say about turrets but I'm pretty sure it's the same drawing on most of other classes having meme skills.Now you guys are going to be a single target DPS with limited ability to stay in melee and offer nothing that any other class can do better (in terms of participating in roaming). Essentially a kitten version of warrior.To be frank, many of the suggested nerfs were on Thermal Release Valve. Keep the skills intact in their power, remove some control over heat generation. Some holosmith utility skills could shine a little more but that's about it.GG engineers, on killing your own class.Come on, now that's silly.

[Tiilimon.6094]

Also have a feeling it's going to be awesome, the game went kinda way too much in the "hug it and spam dps till it dies" direction, and it was only possible through way too much damage and being able to heal through almost any AOEs except those special ones at some bosses.

I've been healing t4s as holo every day and imo its way too easy, as people seem to be unable to die even without any dodging. I'm even able to pop forge during challenge mode bossfights :P

I've been looking for an excuse to go back to core anyways, shame to lose the sword tho, but having a tank/healer/dps hybrid that does em all way too well is fun to play with but makes every other option seem quite stale.

[Chaith.8256]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Chaith.8256" said:Just for the record, stability is not a Necro

stab is absolutely a necro thing but unfortunately anet agrees with you. they are built around face tanking so why not have stab? doesn't make any sense...

Reaper and Scourge both have more Stab than Holo will, idk if you can say they do not have stab. However, I'm mostly going off of ArenaNet constantly saying in their vision for Necro that "THIS IS NOT THE PROFESSION THAT HAS STABILITY." If you think about it, yes, stability would make some sense, but I did point something out earlier -

Going on a small tangent here, Necromancer's playstyle makes it optimal for supporting. Supporting a Necro is so easy compared to other professions, where it's like herding cats. Necromancer's defensive skills don't require cast times, CC doesn't shut Necros/Scourges down, they continue to counter-pressure, and smoothly hit their defensive skills.

Necromancer historically is hands down the most lethal profession, that's really why it's cursed defensively without support. I like that Necro is different.

Anyway, back to Engineer

[Ten.2617]

Talking about Stability, i ll add two points that they could adjust on next patch:

1 - Juggernaut Trait: This trait could trigger on Flamethrower Kit use. Currently it's triggering after 3 sec with Flamethrower on.2 - Over Shield: This trait could trigger on the end of charging of both shield skills or in the respective sequential skill use. Currently they are triggering on the start of shield blocking (3 sec Protection while blocking for 2 - 3 seconds... :/ The Engineer needs that Protection portion while is not blocking).

[Ghos.1326]

I'm foreseeing some Scrapper builds utilizing the new Explosives traits in this order: 2-3-3 for a defensive duelist focused build.It's a combination I will be testing out. The new Blast Shield granting you barrier for landing Explosive Entrance, Big Boomer causing explosions to heal you over 3s, each second giving you 202 healing, as well as Big Boomer giving you a damage increase over targets who have lower health % than you is looking to be pretty strong. May even see Alchemy taken out altogether and run something like Explosives 2-3-3, Inventions (POGFREAKINGCHAMP) 3-3-2, and Scrapper 3-3-3 or 3-1-3 (as the mine laid from Bunker Down is an explosion, proccing the heal over time from Big Boomer).

[lodjur.1284]

Aim Assisted Rocket (REWORK): Rockets are now only fired on critical hits. Rocket recharge reduced from 10 seconds to 3 seconds. Rockets now require the engineer to be at least 450 distance from the target to fire. Every 5th rocket instead calls an orbital strike.

The minimum range stands out as really weird to me, engi mostly feels like a melee professionOnly melee elite specsAlmost every weapon is is either melee, or at least benefits from being in melee (like rifle and OH pistol)The kits are mostly melee too, especially given that they can't really hit moving targets very well at range.

This makes the trait rather bad unless you can always be at range which doesn't really fit with most of what engi is doing.

I was fairly hyped for this trait when I first read it and thought that 450 was the maximum range. Then all the hype instantly died.

Also from a WvW perspective, it would both be stronger to use and less annoying to fight if the max range was 450 instead of the min range.

[insanemaniac.2456]

From a wvw perspective, there are 2 short periods I will never forget because I enjoyed the game more than any other point in time.. first, being a leg specialist warrior on an arrow cart (obviously that can't ever come back). Second, the short time when slick shoes was entirely unchained and rocket boots got ammo and gadgeteer was new. It's the only time that as an engi I've felt like I really brought something to the table beyond being a warm body while zerging, since healing is my last resort.

I wish anet would unchain slick shoes in just wvw. That would be a skill worth splitting, since clearly it was pretty strong at a small scale in pvp and we prolly don't need engis soloing raid boss break bars.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm not looking forward to the new explosive changes, because it is making engineer harder to play and giving me even more things to keep track of. I'll have to figure out some convoluted rotation that swaps in and out of bomb/grenade kit in order to stay relevant. I don't want to do this, because my hands hurt, and the more complicated the playstyle the more it hurts.

I really do not see the value in making engineers so convoluted. The harder the class is to play, the lower the average performance of players becomes.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm not looking forward to the new explosive changes, because it is making engineer harder to play and giving me even more things to keep track of. I'll have to figure out some convoluted rotation that swaps in and out of bomb/grenade kit in order to stay relevant. I don't want to do this, because my hands hurt, and the more complicated the playstyle the more it hurts.

I really do not see the value in making engineers so convoluted. The harder the class is to play, the lower the average performance of players becomes.

But holo does this for ages already. Unless you play the no kit meme build which was never relevant to begin with.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm not looking forward to the new explosive changes, because it is making engineer harder to play and giving me even more things to keep track of. I'll have to figure out some convoluted rotation that swaps in and out of bomb/grenade kit in order to stay relevant. I don't want to do this, because my hands hurt, and the more complicated the playstyle the more it hurts.

I really do not see the value in making engineers so convoluted. The harder the class is to play, the lower the average performance of players becomes.

But holo does this for ages already. Unless you play the no kit meme build which was never relevant to begin with.

To keep the buff up, we'd need to drop 10 explosives every 10 seconds. Grenade Barrage drops 6 every 25 seconds. We're going to have to get 18 more precisely timed explosions from somewhere, which will mean having to constantly flash in and out of photon forge to grenade kit. This isn't the current rotation, let alone a hand-friendly one.

[ILoveMonotony.1479]

Yet I - who by the way isn't very young either - want nothing more than a more challenging and interesting way to play Engineer. The Kits play style has always been my favourite and I am really tired of the Warrior-like approach both Elite specialisations took.

Since neither Scrapper nor Holosmith will go away (and I do not ask that they do), at least give me an alternative that is almost equally as viable but stays true to what the class felt and played like up until Heart of Thorns.

I don't think that's too much to ask.

[wasss.1208]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

To keep the buff up, we'd need to drop 10 explosives every 10 seconds. Grenade Barrage drops 6 every 25 seconds. We're going to have to get 18 more precisely timed explosions from somewhere, which will mean having to constantly flash in and out of photon forge to grenade kit. This isn't the current rotation, let alone a hand-friendly one.

You can use Crystal Configuration: Storm, to turn your holo AA into explosives. Outside of forge, just spam bomb AA, and you are all set. (Quick note: I still use the PBM build, so I have bomb kit. If you run the ECSU, do nades more often.)