A few things on thief that should be addressed immediately!

[Dantheman.3589]

All these resources are abusable!(edited)

1.) mug or mark require a rework or icd, as it can be used endlessly on clones downed targets or pets for insane boons or healing2.) tactical strike needs a huge nerf to bring it inline, as it is a cc that can do up to 7k on DE3.) tooth stab can do 10k per plz fixOther stuff of lower but still very high priority4.) feline grace needs a real icd, in addition to icds for bountiful theft and possibly be quick or be killed, becuz why is there an option that may be permanent boons/stat boost5.) M7 probably gives too much initiative and when combined with mercy I can give permanent full initiative6.) same problem with mark and mug- thrill of the crime needs icd reason already stated7.) many weapon skills damage not touched like cloak and dagger and this will be taken advantage of. where as the change to sw/d 3 is logical because at least flanking strike was nerfed, but maybe do something to prevent larcenous strike spam also Becuz that will also be taken advantage/spammed which isn’t skillful.8.) besides Deadeye builds that are busted with mark spam crit strikes dps and for some builds even the utility is starting to be very busted9.) pistol whip shouldn’t have a animation cancel on jump. Using this u can hit stun and continue moving at same time. We already got rid of staff 3 jump bug while the same thing exist on pistol whip, except it doesn’t dodge because the dodge is part of later animation.

I think I can go on and on actually but these things especially the first 3 should be hot fixed immediately. Also hopefully the comment section will be full of things that are just busted on thief atm as I’m sure there’s plenty

[SoulSin.5682]

What gives, someone is already asking for nerfs for thief.

[Dantheman.3589]

@SoulSin.5682 said:What gives, someone is already asking for nerfs for thief.

I dont even want thief nerfs but rn it is unbalanced with skills that you just use endlessly becuz either they weren’t nerfed or just theoretically give endless something like mercy+m7. The purpose of this isn’t to point out that thief is over powered just that something’s give endless usage as a method of being optimal in the new meta, which every thief main is going to use sooner or later instead a skillful toolbar with proper resource management. Rifle 2 sword 3/5 are going to a staple surely just becuz thief can use them endlessly in the meta and that is contrary to the purpose of the patch which was to bring the power level down not play a meta build that ignores common sense of resource management and a lack of nerfs.

[Curennos.9307]

@Dantheman.3589 said:All these resources are abusable!

1.) mug or mark require a rework or icd, as it can be used endlessly on clones downed targets or pets for insane boons or healingEh. I would rather just un-kitten mesmer. Unique interaction and counterplay between classes/specs isn't a bad thing, and DE can't use it to generate massive amounts of quickness as easily anymore. Mug dmg was nerfed so it probably won't actually kill the clone, and the time taken to do so would take long enough that it's fine, imo.

2.) tactical strike needs a huge nerf to bring it inline, as it is a cc that can do up to 7k on DESource? zerk/Eagle, crit strikes/Trick/DE, got 4k (sometimes barely 5k) with 14/16 might stacks (hard to tell/mash the screenshot button in time) on marked target.

3.) tooth stab can do 10k per plz fix yeah this is bonkers, lolOther stuff of lower but still very high priority4.) feline grace needs a real icd, in addition to icds for bountiful theft and possibly be quick or be killed, becuz why is there an option that may be permanent boons/stat boost+1 to feline grace. Nothing major is needed imo, just enough to make the thief pay attention to their vigor uptime and punishable when it's ripped. -1 to the others, BQOBK doesn't have the quickness duration anymore be worrysome, imo, same for bountiful theft.

5.) M7 probably gives too much initiative and when combined with mercy I can give permanent full initiative 'permanent' is a pretty hefty exaggeration. M7 is now a viable option for sustained fighting - and imo that's totally fine. I think anet could stand to look at the boon durations, but that's it. M7 also has a suitable drawback (requires additional malice) and Mercy aside, requires you to actually land a stealth attack to continue making use of it. Consistently generating 7 malice and then landing the stealth attack is not something that will be happening often enough for it to be a problem, imo, especially with the cost increases.

6.) same problem with mark and mug- thrill of the crime needs icd reason already stated Eh...it's fury, 3 might stacks and swiftness. I don't really see anything wrong with this.7.) many weapon skills damage not touched like cloak and dagger and this will be taken advantage of. where as the change to sw/d 3 is logical because at least flanking strike was nerfed, but maybe do something to prevent larcenous strike spam also Becuz that will also be taken advantage/spammed which isn’t skillful. **Agreed specifically on cloak and dagger - was pretty surprised to log in and find it still had 1k tooltip, lol. Would prefer they slash the damage, add more vuln stacks and call it a day.8.) besides Deadeye builds that are busted with mark spam crit strikes dps and for some builds even the utility is starting to be very busted

I think I can go on and on actually but these things especially the first 3 should be hot fixed immediately. Also hopefully the comment section will be full of things that are just busted on thief atm as I’m sure there’s plenty

[Dantheman.3589]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:All these resources are abusable!

1.) mug or mark require a rework or icd, as it can be used endlessly on clones downed targets or pets for insane boons or healing

Eh. I would rather just un-kitten mesmer. Unique interaction and counterplay between classes/specs isn't a bad thing, and DE can't use it to generate massive amounts of quickness as easily anymore. Mug dmg was nerfed so it probably won't actually kill the clone, and the time taken to do so would take long enough that it's fine, imo.

2.) tactical strike needs a huge nerf to bring it inline, as it is a cc that can do up to 7k on DE

Source? zerk/Eagle, crit strikes/Trick/DE, got 4k (sometimes barely 5k) with 14/16 might stacks (hard to tell/mash the screenshot button in time) on marked target.

3.) tooth stab can do 10k per plz fix

yeah this is bonkers, lol

Other stuff of lower but still very high priority4.) feline grace needs a real icd, in addition to icds for bountiful theft and possibly be quick or be killed, becuz why is there an option that may be permanent boons/stat boost

+1 to feline grace. Nothing major is needed imo, just enough to make the thief pay attention to their vigor uptime and punishable when it's ripped. -1 to the others, BQOBK doesn't have the quickness duration anymore be worrysome, imo, same for bountiful theft.

5.) M7 probably gives too much initiative and when combined with mercy I can give permanent full initiative

'permanent' is a pretty hefty exaggeration. M7 is now a viable option for sustained fighting - and imo that's totally fine. I think anet could stand to look at the boon durations, but that's it. M7 also has a suitable drawback (requires additional malice) and Mercy aside, requires you to actually land a stealth attack to continue making use of it. Consistently generating 7 malice and then landing the stealth attack is not something that will be happening often enough for it to be a problem, imo, especially with the cost increases.

6.) same problem with mark and mug- thrill of the crime needs icd reason already stated

Eh...it's fury, 3 might stacks and swiftness. I don't really see anything wrong with this.

7.) many weapon skills damage not touched like cloak and dagger and this will be taken advantage of. where as the change to sw/d 3 is logical because at least flanking strike was nerfed, but maybe do something to prevent larcenous strike spam also Becuz that will also be taken advantage/spammed which isn’t skillful. **Agreed specifically on cloak and dagger - was pretty surprised to log in and find it still had 1k tooltip, lol. Would prefer they slash the damage, add more vuln stacks and call it a day.8.) besides Deadeye builds that are busted with mark spam crit strikes dps and for some builds even the utility is starting to be very busted

I think I can go on and on actually but these things especially the first 3 should be hot fixed immediately. Also hopefully the comment section will be full of things that are just busted on thief atm as I’m sure there’s plenty

For 7k it is at least possible to get close and on a pretty standard build I can get 5k on golem ez and that’s without conditions which will at time pull it up to 6k, though 7k maybe an exaggeration I’m sure that taking zerk and high burst traits will pull what I’ve seen on a standard build, a little higher than 6k again this is referring to highest possible and it might be exaggerated from average hitting golems. As far as m7 and mercy no u really don’t have to land stealth for it to be useful u just rifle 2 until u hit max malice and get most initiative back and just use mercy to get al of it back again and rinse and repeat with refresh from improv so on the board it’s close to perma. Ofc perma is also an exaggeration but if it’s close on paper it’s definitely abusable in a match. Most of these points are theoretically abusable as they are and should be fixed and I honestly think that’ll help stop them from being op in the future

[storm.3120]

I mean you main thief but asking for nerfs? Thats...unusual...The first what they have to kill is fb/core necro/rev. Dont think they would do many changes until they see a lot of AT's/mAT.

@"Dantheman.3589" said:7.) Obsly they didnt change everything and forgot about a lot of stuff (not just thief only, look at pets with power coof. up to 5.5, lol)What I noticed DE stolen skills wasnt nerfed?Steal time still gives them 3s quickness and 3s slow (and that where all slow/quickness uptime was halved, especially hurting feelings of chronomancer with a trait 1.5s slow with 3s cd).8.) besides Deadeye builds that are busted with mark spam crit strikes dps and for some builds even the utility is starting to be very bustedIdk, its apparently fine for certain classes?https://imgur.com/a/qFkoxcs Mark-mercy-rifle2 spam and WI on protection holo (you can find various pets critting for ~13k in another thread). No more power mesmers at least, we are safe now ;)

[Fueki.4753]

Thief right now is the single most disgusting profession for PvP.It's unfathomable how the ignored the dire need for a complete rework of Stealth.They didn't even try to substantially nerf the single most disgusting thing in PvP.

It doesn't help that Deadeyes apparently can ignore skills that block projectiles.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Fueki.4753 said:Thief right now is the single most disgusting profession for PvP.It's unfathomable how the ignored the dire need for a complete rework of Stealth.They didn't even try to substantially nerf the single most disgusting thing in PvP.

It doesn't help that Deadeyes apparently can ignore skills that block projectiles.

Firebrand is not thief

[Fueki.4753]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Thief right now is the single most disgusting profession for PvP.It's unfathomable how the ignored the dire need for a complete rework of Stealth.They didn't even try to substantially nerf the single most disgusting thing in PvP.

It doesn't help that Deadeyes apparently can ignore skills that block projectiles.

Firebrand is not thief

And Firebrand is not the worst offender in PvP

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Thief right now is the single most disgusting profession for PvP.It's unfathomable how the ignored the dire need for a complete rework of Stealth.They didn't even try to substantially nerf the single most disgusting thing in PvP.

It doesn't help that Deadeyes apparently can ignore skills that block projectiles.

Firebrand is not thief

And Firebrand is not the worst offender in PvP

Yea it is, that's why I pointed out your confusion.

[Fueki.4753]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Thief right now is the single most disgusting profession for PvP.It's unfathomable how the ignored the dire need for a complete rework of Stealth.They didn't even try to substantially nerf the single most disgusting thing in PvP.

It doesn't help that Deadeyes apparently can ignore skills that block projectiles.

Firebrand is not thief

And Firebrand is not the worst offender in PvP

Yea it is, that's why I pointed out your confusion.

It seems that you are the confused one, if you think highly visible Firebrands are in some unfathomable ways worse than almost permanently invisible anti-pvp strategies.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Thief right now is the single most disgusting profession for PvP.It's unfathomable how the ignored the dire need for a complete rework of Stealth.They didn't even try to substantially nerf the single most disgusting thing in PvP.

It doesn't help that Deadeyes apparently can ignore skills that block projectiles.

Firebrand is not thief

And Firebrand is not the worst offender in PvP

Yes it is

[Alatar.7364]

Mug can't be spammed even if someone decided to waste it on a clone or a pet.Ice Shard Stab was already hotfixed.CnD won't be abused because it's slow, clunky, relatively buggy and 5 ini just ain't worth it to spam.

[Dantheman.3589]

@Alatar.7364 said:Mug can't be spammed even if someone decided to waste it on a clone or a pet.Ice Shard Stab was already hotfixed.CnD won't be abused because it's slow, clunky, relatively buggy and 5 ini just ain't worth it to spam.

Not true at all let me break it down-using mark on a clone will most likely kill it and refresh mark immediately, this is 100% risk free spammable and can give an insane amount of boons.Ice shard was hot fixed but guess what tooth stab wasn’t and it deals the same damage ice shard did.Sword burst was basically untouched besides autos so now u can just use w.e u have- tactical strike sword 3 or 5 and u get away with it

[Tycura.1982]

It's seems like the good thieves always want thief nerfs y tho

[Alatar.7364]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:Mug can't be spammed even if someone decided to waste it on a clone or a pet.Ice Shard Stab was already hotfixed.CnD won't be abused because it's slow, clunky, relatively buggy and 5 ini just ain't worth it to spam.

Not true at all let me break it down-using mark on a clone will most likely kill it and refresh mark immediately, this is 100% risk free spammable and can give an insane amount of boons.Ice shard was hot fixed but guess what tooth stab wasn’t and it deals the same damage ice shard did.Sword burst was basically untouched besides autos so now u can just use w.e u have- tactical strike sword 3 or 5 and u get away with it

You don't nerf a skill that may be abused as a result of other skill usage. Fix mark, don't nerf core. (also my mark never oneshoted a clone, but I guess it can happen)Tooth stab is inaccessible in PvP even on pets, clones and beasts it's a random roll item (at least I think it's not guaranteed), so even if you really happened to get it as stolen item its somewhat of a good reward for wasting your steal in a RNG attempt to get it.Sword burst was never big to begin with, it's not even a burst set, the fact you can use CnD which happens to have higher dmg than its other skills doesn't magically make it bursty, almost all other professions have about two skills on most weapon sets that hit harder than other weapon skills on the same weapon, it's their purpose. It's simply intended to have some weapon skills hit harder than other skills on that weapon, that's why they cost more to use (or have higher CD, etc.).CnD simply never was a dangerous nor spammable skill, I don't deny that you might have a different experience, but in my time I've never seen it be useful for anything than very very very occasional combo with steal and even then it randomly didn't land, anytime some Thief attempted to spam it I just undamaged him without even having to dodge.

[Dantheman.3589]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:Mug can't be spammed even if someone decided to waste it on a clone or a pet.Ice Shard Stab was already hotfixed.CnD won't be abused because it's slow, clunky, relatively buggy and 5 ini just ain't worth it to spam.

Not true at all let me break it down-using mark on a clone will most likely kill it and refresh mark immediately, this is 100% risk free spammable and can give an insane amount of boons.Ice shard was hot fixed but guess what tooth stab wasn’t and it deals the same damage ice shard did.Sword burst was basically untouched besides autos so now u can just use w.e u have- tactical strike sword 3 or 5 and u get away with it

You don't nerf a skill that may be abused as a result of other skill usage. Fix mark, don't nerf core.

(also my mark never oneshoted a clone, but I guess it can happen)

Tooth stab is inaccessible in PvP even on pets, clones and beasts it's a random roll item

(at least I think it's not guaranteed)

, so even if you really happened to get it as stolen item its somewhat of a good reward for wasting your steal in a RNG attempt to get it.Sword burst was never big to begin with, it's not even a burst set, the fact you can use CnD which happens to have higher dmg than its other skills doesn't magically make it bursty, almost all other professions have about two skills on most weapon sets that hit harder than other weapon skills on the same weapon, it's their purpose. It's simply intended to have some weapon skills hit harder than other skills on that weapon, that's why they cost more to use

(or have higher CD, etc.)

.CnD simply never was a dangerous nor spammable skill, I don't deny that you might have a different experience, but in my time I've never seen it be useful for anything than very very very occasional combo with steal and even then it randomly didn't land, anytime some Thief attempted to spam it I just undamaged him without even having to dodge.

Tooth stab is not inaccessible in pvp and 2 hits from that would ko most targets and that’s obviously busted.My suggestion to add an icd wouldnt affect core builds at all- just put a 5 sec icd on mug etc. to make sure mark doesn’t abuse it and because 5 secs isn’t enough for daredevil or core to get steal back it wouldn’t impact them.And yeah with de ur goona have to spam something with initiative and having a random skill busted is no bueno, but you can disagree it’s w.e

[Alatar.7364]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:Mug can't be spammed even if someone decided to waste it on a clone or a pet.Ice Shard Stab was already hotfixed.CnD won't be abused because it's slow, clunky, relatively buggy and 5 ini just ain't worth it to spam.

Not true at all let me break it down-using mark on a clone will most likely kill it and refresh mark immediately, this is 100% risk free spammable and can give an insane amount of boons.Ice shard was hot fixed but guess what tooth stab wasn’t and it deals the same damage ice shard did.Sword burst was basically untouched besides autos so now u can just use w.e u have- tactical strike sword 3 or 5 and u get away with it

You don't nerf a skill that may be abused as a result of other skill usage. Fix mark, don't nerf core.

(also my mark never oneshoted a clone, but I guess it can happen)

Tooth stab is inaccessible in PvP even on pets, clones and beasts it's a random roll item

(at least I think it's not guaranteed)

, so even if you really happened to get it as stolen item its somewhat of a good reward for wasting your steal in a RNG attempt to get it.Sword burst was never big to begin with, it's not even a burst set, the fact you can use CnD which happens to have higher dmg than its other skills doesn't magically make it bursty, almost all other professions have about two skills on most weapon sets that hit harder than other weapon skills on the same weapon, it's their purpose. It's simply intended to have some weapon skills hit harder than other skills on that weapon, that's why they cost more to use

(or have higher CD, etc.)

.CnD simply never was a dangerous nor spammable skill, I don't deny that you might have a different experience, but in my time I've never seen it be useful for anything than very very very occasional combo with steal and even then it randomly didn't land, anytime some Thief attempted to spam it I just undamaged him without even having to dodge.

Tooth stab is not inaccessible in pvp and 2 hits from that would ko most targets and that’s obviously busted.My suggestion to add an icd wouldnt affect core builds at all- just put a 5 sec icd on mug etc. to make sure mark doesn’t abuse it and because 5 secs isn’t enough for daredevil or core to get steal back it wouldn’t impact them.And yeah with de ur goona have to spam something with initiative and having a random skill busted is no bueno, but you can disagree it’s w.e

How do you access tooth stab in PvP?

[Wayne.6253]

we seriously speaking about nerfing thief??? So what about Necro and FB that are ridiculously OP... LOL

[Black Storm.6974]

I just want to say that I find “internal cooldowns” to be the most annoying thing about Gw2. I just find annoying and unnecessarily hard having to manage all these “hidden cooldowns” on top of the cooldown of my skills.

I hope every trait that has more than 1 second internal cooldown will get a rework to make it “unnecessary”.

[Leonidrex.5649]

they should just stop mesmer clones from generating anything to enemies.if you land healing attack on a clone, tought luck. no heal for you.you shouldnt "steal life" from illusion, its been abused to shit, alwaysBe it necros draining 4 targets instead of 1, or warriors cleave generating crapton of might heals and endurace or necros generating shroud and now this.

[Burnfall.9573]

@Tycura.1982 said:It's seems like the good thieves always want thief nerfs y tho

It's always been like this since the beginning. In fact; Thief Profession players would post their own nerf wishlist on their Thief subforum for healthy change.....even approving full redesign to Thief Profession and removing stealth altogether for overall well being of the game including its players.

It is Anet who are the ones whose keeping Thief Profession at its state and are even not listening to Thief Profession players asking for a complete redesign once after all for the better

In other word, they are not even in the best interests of Thief Profession players and do not care for them either

[Dantheman.3589]

@Wayne.6253 said:we seriously speaking about nerfing thief??? So what about Necro and FB that are ridiculously OP... LOL

Only a few things here are actual nerfs but the vast majority are exploitable issues that can be fixed with small icds that will not effect any other part of the class. If we get rid of exploitable things and update balance frequently good balance will come naturally not other way around

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:Mug can't be spammed even if someone decided to waste it on a clone or a pet.Ice Shard Stab was already hotfixed.CnD won't be abused because it's slow, clunky, relatively buggy and 5 ini just ain't worth it to spam.

Not true at all let me break it down-using mark on a clone will most likely kill it and refresh mark immediately, this is 100% risk free spammable and can give an insane amount of boons.Ice shard was hot fixed but guess what tooth stab wasn’t and it deals the same damage ice shard did.Sword burst was basically untouched besides autos so now u can just use w.e u have- tactical strike sword 3 or 5 and u get away with it

You don't nerf a skill that may be abused as a result of other skill usage. Fix mark, don't nerf core.

(also my mark never oneshoted a clone, but I guess it can happen)

Tooth stab is inaccessible in PvP even on pets, clones and beasts it's a random roll item

(at least I think it's not guaranteed)

, so even if you really happened to get it as stolen item its somewhat of a good reward for wasting your steal in a RNG attempt to get it.Sword burst was never big to begin with, it's not even a burst set, the fact you can use CnD which happens to have higher dmg than its other skills doesn't magically make it bursty, almost all other professions have about two skills on most weapon sets that hit harder than other weapon skills on the same weapon, it's their purpose. It's simply intended to have some weapon skills hit harder than other skills on that weapon, that's why they cost more to use

(or have higher CD, etc.)

.CnD simply never was a dangerous nor spammable skill, I don't deny that you might have a different experience, but in my time I've never seen it be useful for anything than very very very occasional combo with steal and even then it randomly didn't land, anytime some Thief attempted to spam it I just undamaged him without even having to dodge.

Tooth stab is not inaccessible in pvp and 2 hits from that would ko most targets and that’s obviously busted.My suggestion to add an icd wouldnt affect core builds at all- just put a 5 sec icd on mug etc. to make sure mark doesn’t abuse it and because 5 secs isn’t enough for daredevil or core to get steal back it wouldn’t impact them.And yeah with de ur goona have to spam something with initiative and having a random skill busted is no bueno, but you can disagree it’s w.e

How do you access tooth stab in PvP?

I think he must mean ice shard stab, and it was already fixed.

Ice Shard Stab: Fixed an issue in which the damage increase for this skill was applied in all game modes instead of only PvE.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Dantheman.3589 said:All these resources are abusable!

1.) mug or mark require a rework or icd, as it can be used endlessly on clones downed targets or pets for insane boons or healing2.) tactical strike needs a huge nerf to bring it inline, as it is a cc that can do up to 7k on DE3.) tooth stab can do 10k per plz fixOther stuff of lower but still very high priority4.) feline grace needs a real icd, in addition to icds for bountiful theft and possibly be quick or be killed, becuz why is there an option that may be permanent boons/stat boost5.) M7 probably gives too much initiative and when combined with mercy I can give permanent full initiative6.) same problem with mark and mug- thrill of the crime needs icd reason already stated7.) many weapon skills damage not touched like cloak and dagger and this will be taken advantage of. where as the change to sw/d 3 is logical because at least flanking strike was nerfed, but maybe do something to prevent larcenous strike spam also Becuz that will also be taken advantage/spammed which isn’t skillful.8.) besides Deadeye builds that are busted with mark spam crit strikes dps and for some builds even the utility is starting to be very busted

I think I can go on and on actually but these things especially the first 3 should be hot fixed immediately. Also hopefully the comment section will be full of things that are just busted on thief atm as I’m sure there’s plenty

Ill go through the list.

1. if anything needs a cooldown, it would be mark.
2. tactical strike is soft cc, and 7k is very unlikely without plenty of qualifiers, meaning it will never happen in normal play alone even on zerk.
3. Tooth stab is not in pvp, you must mean ice shard stab, and it has already been patched.
4. feline grace got a competitive reduction already to 3 seconds, and acrobatics means less burst from a thief, so less burst should allow for more sustain.....
5. fine nerf those
6. if anything needs a cooldown, it's mark
7. many weapons go untouched because (1) they only do slow well telegraphed damage, (2) they are only afffective under certain conditions and/or (3) they have high initiative cost unjustified to their effects. The idea was not to lower every damage skill across the board, because they WERE NOT...across the board.
8. I don't think you have a real build in mind, but if you do lets see some game play with this eternal intiative busted utility, eternal dodging DE.

I have heard that bunker staff is back, and I actually believe that one is possibly true.

I would trust the claims of mortrialus, and shadowpass for broken thief stuff before this list above.

That and the gameplay from sindrener