WvW NPCs need nerf

[Len.1879]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So... It became more balanced now?

Because thats what I hear with every post. Do you want easy mode and being carried by build or do you want a team based MMO? If you cant kill NPCs get more people.Flipping camps is one of these rare senses of achievement for new players in the game mode. I would not take that away from them, so that they quit in bigger numbers as it is the case anyway (because wvw lacks tutorials and is frustrating as f. when you are new).

I mean what do we lose? I can flip a camp without any issues now and I could do it before. It makes no difference. But give weaker players ways to contribute and feel useful! We all benefit from that at the end of the day.

Not sure if the balancing of a team-based mode should happen around the accomodation of new players doing solo stuff there.

[acidic.4356]

@GlazedEntity.8591 said:Exactly prior to patch without the trait it was no fun, now post patch with the trait is much more annoying to take camps I could not imagine without the trait.

if you find it annoying, change how you do it ? learn your class better? pretty sure we were all new once, and have improved ourselves from that point, to now be able to take camps/towers/whateva... you learn stuff as you go, like stackin the camp dudes with los.. etc

[Jong.5937]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So... It became more balanced now?

Because thats what I hear with every post. Do you want easy mode and being carried by build or do you want a team based MMO? If you cant kill NPCs get more people.Flipping camps is one of these rare senses of achievement for new players in the game mode. I would not take that away from them, so that they quit in bigger numbers as it is the case anyway (because wvw lacks tutorials and is frustrating as f. when you are new).

I mean what do we lose? I can flip a camp without any issues now and I could do it before. It makes no difference. But give weaker players ways to contribute and feel useful! We all benefit from that at the end of the day.

But the OP was talking about problems taking T3 stuff. New players should not be able to waltz into WvW and take T3 objectives, even camps. A T3 camp should take 2 or 3 guys or a very skilled roamer IMO.

[acidic.4356]

maybe if we are trying to cater to new players , eotm could be used, like a brand new player hits enter wvw and can only goto eotm (the new starter mode dumbed down basics of wvw to introduce new players) they level up there a bit and when they hit a certain rank (and have learned basics) say 100 or whateva, - they are transported to regular wvw, and can no longer access eotm.... so only brand new players allowed in. hmmmm

[GlazedEntity.8591]

@acidic.4356 said:

@GlazedEntity.8591 said:Exactly prior to patch without the trait it was no fun, now post patch with the trait is much more annoying to take camps I could not imagine without the trait.

if you find it annoying, change how you do it ? learn your class better? pretty sure we were all new once, and have improved ourselves from that point, to now be able to take camps/towers/whateva... you learn stuff as you go, like stackin the camp dudes with los.. etc

I did change how I do it, in that I do not. I don’t play in a PvP based mode to deal with NPCs for so long. And I can always improve and learn my class and others better. However, dealing with a camp of NPCs before was fun and was the right amount of engagement. I just no longer get satisfaction out of taking camps it is more tedious and doesn’t give me value for time/effort = reward. And also when I started I didn’t have a synergetic build or set runes with only exotic gear. I appreciate the discussion but learn your class better is not the end all statement. I can always find a cheap way of taking a camp and many people do. Ex. Speldon you can just draw the champ over and do it for you entertaining but not what got me into the game. Fast paced action style gameplay did.

[KrHome.1920]

@Len.1879 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So... It became more balanced now?

Because thats what I hear with every post. Do you want easy mode and being carried by build or do you want a team based MMO? If you cant kill NPCs get more people.Flipping camps is one of these rare senses of achievement for new players in the game mode. I would not take that away from them, so that they quit in bigger numbers as it is the case anyway (because wvw lacks tutorials and is frustrating as f. when you are new).

I mean what do we lose? I can flip a camp without any issues now and I could do it before. It makes no difference. But give weaker players ways to contribute and feel useful! We all benefit from that at the end of the day.

Not sure if the balancing of a team-based mode should happen around the accomodation of new players doing solo stuff there.To believe that it is enough to reduce the game mode to mass pvp is delusional. Server population balance is a mess (at least in EU, don't know about NA) and in general the population is too low several hours a day to team up (at least in EU, don't know about NA). If you don't keep solo players in the game mode for some time by giving them stuff to do, then the game mode will bleed out even more.

@acidic.4356 said:i believe something is only an achievement if its not easy to doIt is not easy for new players.

• They don't have the damage trait against guards.
• They don't have wvw infusions.
• They probably don't even have ascended gear and don't run decent builds as they lack experience to build adequately.

Sum that up and a newbie deals 50% less damage to a guard than you do. Now after the patch where we all do another 30% (40% if we include the might generation and cc skill nerfs) less damage it has become an issue.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So... It became more balanced now?

Because thats what I hear with every post. Do you want easy mode and being carried by build or do you want a team based MMO? If you cant kill NPCs get more people.Flipping camps is one of these rare senses of achievement for new players in the game mode. I would not take that away from them, so that they quit in bigger numbers as it is the case anyway (because wvw lacks tutorials and is frustrating as f. when you are new).

I mean what do we lose? I can flip a camp without any issues now and I could do it before. It makes no difference. But give weaker players ways to contribute and feel useful! We all benefit from that at the end of the day.

Not sure if the balancing of a team-based mode should happen around the accomodation of new players doing solo stuff there.To believe that it is enough to reduce the game mode to mass pvp is delusional. Server population balance is a mess (at least in EU, don't know about NA) and in general the population is too low several hours a day to team up (at least in EU, don't know about NA). If you don't keep solo players in the game mode for some time by giving them stuff to do, then the game mode will bleed out even more.

@acidic.4356 said:i believe something is only an achievement if its not easy to doIt is not easy for new players.

• They don't have the damage trait against guards.

Agreed. And if they ask me, it’s not one of the first things I recommend. For many reasons.

• They don't have wvw infusions.

That’s a choice. There are guilds. It is ‘end game’.

• They probably don't even have ascended gear and don't run decent builds as they lack experience to build adequately.

Ascended gear, ok. Decent builds is, again, a choice. There are multiple tools to assist with a starting point.

Sum that up and a newbie deals 50% less damage to a guard than you do.

It’s likely more like 10-15%.

The inherent problem with all of that is people don’t ask.

It’s an MMO. Groups are there for a reason. If they don’t understand that WvW is about group play, I am not sure how much of an actual competitive buff will help.

[GlazedEntity.8591]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So... It became more balanced now?

Because thats what I hear with every post. Do you want easy mode and being carried by build or do you want a team based MMO? If you cant kill NPCs get more people.Flipping camps is one of these rare senses of achievement for new players in the game mode. I would not take that away from them, so that they quit in bigger numbers as it is the case anyway (because wvw lacks tutorials and is frustrating as f. when you are new).

I mean what do we lose? I can flip a camp without any issues now and I could do it before. It makes no difference. But give weaker players ways to contribute and feel useful! We all benefit from that at the end of the day.

Not sure if the balancing of a team-based mode should happen around the accomodation of new players doing solo stuff there.To believe that it is enough to reduce the game mode to mass pvp is delusional. Server population balance is a mess (at least in EU, don't know about NA) and in general the population is too low several hours a day to team up (at least in EU, don't know about NA). If you don't keep solo players in the game mode for some time by giving them stuff to do, then the game mode will bleed out even more.

@acidic.4356 said:i believe something is only an achievement if its not easy to doIt is not easy for new players.

• They don't have the damage trait against guards.
• They don't have wvw infusions.
• They probably don't even have ascended gear and don't run decent builds as they lack experience to build adequately.

Sum that up and a newbie deals 50% less damage to a guard than you do.

Plus if a player comes by to defend the camp the assistance of the camp will be enough to push out the offense or win the fight which is how it should be(player based).

[lodjur.1284]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Golems shouldn't count for contesting a camp, just like mounts

Agree. No risk, no reward. This shouldn't come down to who spent supply.

Worst is when they built like 3+ golems and just go from one to next until their 20+ zerg shows up

[acidic.4356]

well its a good discussion anyhow , speaking for myself im ok with the change, tbh id call it a small buff, however if we are catering for newer players then fair enough, but remember they wont be new for long and will also at some point find it easy. overall its not something im worried about if it changed back,so its down to anet i guess.

[acidic.4356]

@lodjur.1284 said:Worst is when they built like 3+ golems and just go from one to next until their 20+ zerg shows up

now this is annoying :P golems are soo cheap now - but lets say they went to over 1gold again, there would probably still be some ppl doing this. its a valid tactic for sure.

[lodjur.1284]

@acidic.4356 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Worst is when they built like 3+ golems and just go from one to next until their 20+ zerg shows up

now this is annoying :P

It's how you win at WvW make your opponent stop finding it fun so they stop playing!

[GlazedEntity.8591]

@acidic.4356 said:well its a good discussion anyhow , speaking for myself im ok with the change, tbh id call it a small buff, however if we are catering for newer players then fair enough, but remember they wont be new for long and will also at some point find it easy. overall its not something im worried about if it changed back,so its down to anet i guess.

Agreed, they are only camps and do not provide that much value as a primary target. Towers/keeps are the HVT and take time/effort to even get inside let alone take down the NPC and cap but have much higher value than a camp.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@acidic.4356 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Worst is when they built like 3+ golems and just go from one to next until their 20+ zerg shows up

now this is annoying :P

Maybe... I find that hilarious that they needed to bring the Zerg to kill two of us.

North camp of alpine is the best place...

Coordinating with another small group of 3-4 is the best way to create havoc on a BL. Tap their keep while you are taking North. They respond to north while you take back their home tower. Usually they show up just after it flips. They get tired of this.. they will then pull people off a different BL. So, their map queue shows up to take a paper tower...

People need to communicate in a MMO. Work with other groups.

You get great fights in camps when it’s two to three of you....

[Gop.8713]

Solo roaming is the only thing I do in wvw, and I def like that it is a little bit harder to flip camps now. It was far too easy before, with even individual players being able to flip a camp before the swords icon appears to notify the defending side. It takes just a little bit longer now and that's a good thing, esp with the mount speed nerf affecting response time . . .

[acidic.4356]

@"Gop.8713" said:Solo roaming is the only thing I do in wvw, and I def like that it is a little bit harder to flip camps now. It was far too easy before, with even individual players being able to flip a camp before the swords icon appears to notify the defending side. It takes just a little bit longer now and that's a good thing, esp with the mount speed nerf affecting response time . . .

good point, also there are times when the X doesnt even happen at all...... another annoying thing to me are the "ghost Xs" nnc, nwc,sc etc.. but thats another subject

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

@SuperNix.5061 said:Even tho roaming scene is quite dead there are people that still do it every now and then and that's when the problem apears.This made me laugh because it makes things sound fine...until the roamers start to roam. Ominous music!On a serious note, oldschool camp guards actually did get nerfed too, they use power skills! Guards use warrior mace, supervisor is warrior hammer, scouts are pistol thieves, you get the picture. They are terrible 1-3 skill versions of some classes, and they actually did get a bit nerfed too, kinda funny. I do need to see if the supervisors backbreaker does actual damage or not now though

[KrHome.1920]

@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

@SuperNix.5061 said:Even tho roaming scene is quite dead there are people that still do it every now and then and that's when the problem apears.This made me laugh because it makes things sound fine...until the roamers start to roam. Ominous music!On a serious note, oldschool camp guards actually did get nerfed too, they use power skills! Guards use warrior mace, supervisor is warrior hammer, scouts are pistol thieves, you get the picture. They are terrible 1-3 skill versions of some classes, and they actually did get a bit nerfed too, kinda funny. I do need to see if the supervisors backbreaker does actual damage or not now thoughThe skill-states are inconsistent at least in terms of their mechanic. I am not sure about the damage component.

The scout blind is a 2012 unnerfed black powder (thief pistol5) that blinds every second and doesn't have a red ring. On the other hand the cabalist uses the buffed spectral grasp (necro utility skill) that can pull 5 targets instead of 1 (like in 2012).

[Aeolus.3615]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@aspirine.6852 said:On the other hand, arent upgraded camps suppose to be harder to cap....

Sorry, but this. Nothing against solo-roaming in general, but WvW is a team mode after all. If you can't cap T3 alone, you probably shouldn't. Get a buddy or two, and if you don't want that, stick to slapping Doylaks and flipping T1 or fighting other roamers. That is still a valuable addition to your team.

^ this..

Actually, this is not very usefull for your server. Monkey on TC would literally say they are dead weight and should be helping to do something that matters. Also what you suggest sounds like such poor WXP at present it would not very productive from a reward standpoint either.

Also fighting other roamers takes too long now. You lose too much participation for it. Roaming seems like more a waste than ever.

@Len.1879 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So... It became more balanced now?

Because thats what I hear with every post. Do you want easy mode and being carried by build or do you want a team based MMO? If you cant kill NPCs get more people.Flipping camps is one of these rare senses of achievement for new players in the game mode. I would not take that away from them, so that they quit in bigger numbers as it is the case anyway (because wvw lacks tutorials and is frustrating as f. when you are new).

I mean what do we lose? I can flip a camp without any issues now and I could do it before. It makes no difference. But give weaker players ways to contribute and feel useful! We all benefit from that at the end of the day.

Not sure if the balancing of a team-based mode should happen around the accomodation of new players doing solo stuff there.

Dead weight delaying a capture, not sure if it’s really dead weight, since it puts who is capturing writhin time of appearing some one to help saving camp.

The players want easy game can be dangerous...Hi I’m new why can’t i solo smc or enemy garrison?

Well nobody should solo it...Awnser: thats a team job, camps m8 be hard if you are new stick to learn taking camps just don’t rush expecting to 1111 autos everything handed, learn to lure and play with line of sight.

Just don’t ball mindlessly like we used to do before patch... this is why people are getting not killed..

[KrHome.1920]

Yeah decent logic: if you can't solo smc you shouldn't be able to solo a sentry too, because this is a team game.

And of course veterans should have an easier time than newbies because this will not piss off people at all but attract them to get good. Just like in real life, where everyone is prefering having a hard time at any cost. Videogames should never be beginner friendly because you have to look at the bigger picture. After 500 hours you will start to have fun like we have!

Makes all sense. I am convinced. Thanks!

[Aeolus.3615]

@KrHome.1920 said:Yeah decent logic: if you can't solo smc you shouldn't be able to solo a sentry too, because this is a team game.

And of course veterans should have an easier time than newbies because this will not kitten of people at all but attract them to get good. Just like in real life, where everyone is prefering having a hard time at any cost. Videogames should never be beginner friendly because you have to look at the bigger pictues. After 500 hours you will start to have fun!

Makes all sense. I am convinced. Thanks!

What class are you playing, weapon and build???

Even a new player can kill a sentry, I was just putting some “carefully with asking to make stuff easy” that was already a mistake during game release and forward.

Can u provide some info about ur gameplays/build ?? Like in asked before..Maybe those vets can help u..

I’m still 11111 auto-atacking camp mobs, just playing more carefully.

Zerker/assassin stats rev, cleric build for support when with allies.

[KrHome.1920]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Yeah decent logic: if you can't solo smc you shouldn't be able to solo a sentry too, because this is a team game.

And of course veterans should have an easier time than newbies because this will not kitten of people at all but attract them to get good. Just like in real life, where everyone is prefering having a hard time at any cost. Videogames should never be beginner friendly because you have to look at the bigger pictues. After 500 hours you will start to have fun!

Makes all sense. I am convinced. Thanks!

What class are you playing, weapon and build???

Even a new player can kill a sentry, I was just putting some “carefully with asking to make stuff easy” that was already a mistake during game release.

Can u provide some info about ur gameplays/build ?? Like in asked before..Maybe those vets can help u..I am freaking rank 5000. I have my whole gear on legendary. Balance patches don't hurt me, I just change my build for free. That's not the topic here. I am talking about keeping the game mode healthy and this includes keeping it beginner friendly. All that shit I achieved means nothing when I don't have anything to fight against anymore.

50% in this thread is elitism bull-shit. Nothing else.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@KrHome.1920 said:Yeah decent logic: if you can't solo smc you shouldn't be able to solo a sentry too, because this is a team game.

Because that’s what most of us are saying... ?

And of course veterans should have an easier time than newbies because this will not kitten off people at all but attract them to get good. Just like in real life, where everyone is prefering having a hard time at any cost.

In almost every game, people who play it more, generally are better at it.... ?

. Videogames should never be beginner friendly because you have to look at the bigger picture. After 500 hours you will start to have fun like we have!

You actually would say that about GW2? One of the most newbie friendly MMOs out there?

Again, it’s end game content... It’s not made for ‘beginner’.

It’s also why, unlike sPvP you can’t enter it right past the opening.

?

[ArchonWing.9480]

Looks like people need to learn their pve rotation.

And before anyone asks, yes, I have died trying to take a camp before. I hate those stupid blinds.

[Len.1879]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So... It became more balanced now?

Because thats what I hear with every post. Do you want easy mode and being carried by build or do you want a team based MMO? If you cant kill NPCs get more people.Flipping camps is one of these rare senses of achievement for new players in the game mode. I would not take that away from them, so that they quit in bigger numbers as it is the case anyway (because wvw lacks tutorials and is frustrating as f. when you are new).

I mean what do we lose? I can flip a camp without any issues now and I could do it before. It makes no difference. But give weaker players ways to contribute and feel useful! We all benefit from that at the end of the day.

Not sure if the balancing of a team-based mode should happen around the accomodation of new players doing solo stuff there.To believe that it is enough to reduce the game mode to mass pvp is delusional. Server population balance is a mess (at least in EU, don't know about NA) and in general the population is too low several hours a day to team up (at least in EU, don't know about NA). If you don't keep solo players in the game mode for some time by giving them stuff to do, then the game mode will bleed out even more.

@acidic.4356 said:i believe something is only an achievement if its not easy to doIt is not easy for new players.

• They don't have the damage trait against guards.
• They don't have wvw infusions.
• They probably don't even have ascended gear and don't run decent builds as they lack experience to build adequately.

Sum that up and a newbie deals 50% less damage to a guard than you do. Now after the patch where we all do another 30% (40% if we include the might generation and cc skill nerfs) less damage it has become an issue.

That's not what I said. I have nothing against roamers, nor against single players. I am against making everything easy for players because they are new. Today they want to solo cap T3 camps. Tomorrow it's the garrison.