When is the Claim Buff/Presence of the keep stat nerf?

[Riba.3271]

It is just busted, Defenders already have tactics, siege, portals, respawn, better positioning and even something like stealth traps.

You can play around most of them but Claim buff is something you cannot.

When you have a blob, you should be able to poke enemy keep and force enemy to get someone to tag up. Great roamers should be able to outduel good ones instead of getting overwhelmed by someone having 800 extra stats.

Taking enemy upgraded stuff after a long duration fight is just epic. Even when EB has 3 servers with a blob, 2 of them are reluctant to doubleteam the slightly stronger server because they just get god mode near their objectives.

Making the base claim buff something like +40 power/precision/toughness/vitality instead of +100 would improve state of WvW a lot. Removing the combat stats from claim buff completely would be the better choice for WvW balance but as it is guild upgrade, I don't see it being possible.

[Aeolus.3615]

I don’t mind presence of the keep, but imo it’s area that should be only inside the keep itself, rather the larger radios arround the keep.

[bluberblasen.9684]

as i said myself 20 times.reduce / remove the stat gain apart from the xp gain.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Threather.9354 said:When you have a blob, you should be able to poke enemy keep and force enemy to get someone to tag up. Great roamers should be able to outduel good ones instead of getting overwhelmed by someone having 800 extra stats.You are speaking as if this doesnt happen, when it happens every hour of every day.

[ilMasa.2546]

@Threather.9354 said:It is just busted, Defenders already have tactics, siege, portals, respawn, better positioning and even something like stealth traps.

You can play around most of them but Claim buff is something you cannot.

When you have a blob, you should be able to poke enemy keep and force enemy to get someone to tag up. Great roamers should be able to outduel good ones instead of getting overwhelmed by someone having 800 extra stats.

Taking enemy upgraded stuff after a long duration fight is just epic. Even when EB has 3 servers with a blob, 2 of them are reluctant to doubleteam the slightly stronger server because they just get god mode near their objectives.

Making the base claim buff something like +40 power/precision/toughness/vitality instead of +100 would improve state of WvW a lot. Removing the combat stats from claim buff completely would be the better choice for WvW balance but as it is guild upgrade, I don't see it being possible.

But to be honest i would remove sieges and better positioning from the list since 2 aoes and the siege are gone and the catwalk is just a death trap for the same reason.

[ChronosCosmos.9450]

Keeps are meant to be hard to capture.

[Riba.3271]

@ChronosCosmos.9450 said:Keeps are meant to be hard to capture.

Yes, and they will still be even if the claim buff is nerfed. Just sayin' 2 servers should be able to beat 1 inside their keep if they play smarter.

Just now it is practically impossible. They can buff wall/gate HP back up as long, and maybe increase guild golem supply cost, as long as the fighting ground is more even. There are other ways to make keeps hard to cap than making them terrible places for any group that wants to have fun to go to.

Don't forget that attacker doesn't have luxury of jumping off walls, going outside or gliding around to save their life midcombat. Or running back very fast after dying.

And claim buffs extend literally everywhere on the map, they decide both small and big fights on seemingly even location.

[aspirine.6852]

"Defenders already have tactics, siege, portals, respawn, better positioning and even something like stealth traps."

I lolled about this. What the attackers cannot respawn all of a sudden? The best position is to the attackers, not the defenders. And stealth traps, ohhhhh so dangerous for the attackers :D

[Aeolus.3615]

@"aspirine.6852" said:"Defenders already have tactics, siege, portals, respawn, better positioning and even something like stealth traps."

I lolled about this. What the attackers cannot respawn all of a sudden? The best position is to the attackers, not the defenders. And stealth traps, ohhhhh so dangerous for the attackers :D

Also buff helps cause no one can be on the wall, due pulls and their LoS.

Being on the wall is dangerous, and the buff works like a motivation buff, maybe it needs to work ONLY inside the keep and walls not outside of it.

[Riba.3271]

@"aspirine.6852" said:"Defenders already have tactics, siege, portals, respawn, better positioning and even something like stealth traps."

I lolled about this. What the attackers cannot respawn all of a sudden? The best position is to the attackers, not the defenders. And stealth traps, ohhhhh so dangerous for the attackers :D

Best postioning is for attackers? So they can build siege prefight? They can choose the spot they start the fight from? They don't have to stand in lord room for several minutes to kill the lord? They don't have advantage of infinite respawns from EWP near most Keep/tower entrances? The attacker literally needs to run through the enemy damage, clear all the mortars, cannons, acs, while fighting the enemies. Yes you can maybe try to portal inside to clear a few acs but what if theres more even further....

Point is defenders will close the gate and their spawn is literally like 5-10 times closer for both garri and eb keeps. Even on offensive bls there's massive advantage in travel time having T3 keep there provided you keep enemy garrison contested.

This way: The players who prefer attacking will feel better after fighting near enemy objectives and defending players will get more action. The game is quite literally in state where almost no one attacks enemy t3 keeps during hours enemy has players but no commander. Having a commander should even out the advantages of a side that has no com but is defending

Like yeah, you can farm new players as much as you want in keep with a guildblob but point is guild blobs should at least have a chance of wiping another guild blob in enemy keep once or twice. Yes they will still fail taking it because they'll just respawn and build siege if they're weaker, but at least the stronger side will be stronger and bad commanders can't just "show up and keep will magically be saved" but actually have to learn some basics of leading.

Let me tell you how WvW used to be: Guild didn't have anything to fight? They grouped up and attacked garrison. Then some enemy tagged up to try to def it or guilds showed up. Then they had epic fights inside or they lost garri because no1 cared. Atm guilds don't even try to group up to attack objectives because they know the fight inside will be terrible quality and all they can hope inside is to get farm some roamers, if anything decent shows up, even a chatmander, they'll just go splat. Same applies to open tags. Same applies to smaller guilds attacking upgraded towers. All they can hope is to Backcap things.

WvW is supposed to be about epic fights for objectives, not epic fights or objectives.

[aspirine.6852]

Well the best position is usually for the attackers, lets say it like that. Its not uncommon that a group attacking a T3 keep has the numbers. If the defenders have similar numbers I have no idea what they are doing on the walls and behind siege. Since it is easier to take an attacker down on the ground and without siege. AC just tickles a bit these days.And attackers clearing all siege first, well yes of course. Don't tell me that Deso doesnt siege up their keeps =) And also it should be hard to take a T3 keep. Hell they sieged up our keep during the night when they nightcap everything. And dont tell me that a group like deso has cannot clear all canons and mortars before they even start on the wall or doors.. They are the most useless of sieges of them all. If you die by mortar fire you should rethink your capping :)

And of course they will try to close the gate, that is the risk of being the attacker, and the strategy of the defender. Easily overcome by every group that has portals will them. So no big deal there.If you remove the presence of the keep you will kinda hurt the defending party that does not have nearly the equal numbers of the attackers. And for this I dont mean organised guild groups hiding in keeps, but defenders are normally a bunch of people thrown together. They do not have the perma boon spam that every single attacking group does have. It is kinda leveling out for them in this case.

[ArlAlt.1630]

I'm sorry what?

I wanna make sure I'm reading this right...

[Riba.3271]

@aspirine.6852 said:Well the best position is usually for the attackers, lets say it like that. Its not uncommon that a group attacking a T3 keep has the numbers. If the defenders have similar numbers I have no idea what they are doing on the walls and behind siege. Since it is easier to take an attacker down on the ground and without siege. AC just tickles a bit these days.And attackers clearing all siege first, well yes of course. Don't tell me that Deso doesnt siege up their keeps =) And also it should be hard to take a T3 keep. Hell they sieged up our keep during the night when they nightcap everything. And dont tell me that a group like deso has cannot clear all canons and mortars before they even start on the wall or doors.. They are the most useless of sieges of them all. If you die by mortar fire you should rethink your capping :)

And of course they will try to close the gate, that is the risk of being the attacker, and the strategy of the defender. Easily overcome by every group that has portals will them. So no big deal there.If you remove the presence of the keep you will kinda hurt the defending party that does not have nearly the equal numbers of the attackers. And for this I dont mean organised guild groups hiding in keeps, but defenders are normally a bunch of people thrown together. They do not have the perma boon spam that every single attacking group does have. It is kinda leveling out for them in this case.

My point was, defenders already have too much advantage even without claim buff. Claim buff isn't necessary. Losing keeps with 15 less players should be nothing to be ashamed of. Also you shouldn't have to have a big group to attack upgraded things against small numbers. Right now, yes if a group is attacking T3 objective they have big numbers, but small groups should be able to have fun against small number of defenders as well. Especially since coverage is so bad even in T1 that it isn't uncommon for all borderlands to be fully upgraded.

Like big deal, you lost bay or hills against a group that showed up. Now then you def garri and can have even hour or two of epic defending against a willingly attacking group, because attackers will also have fun with better balance as well, instead of enemy commander disappearing after 1 failure. Sometimes you lose your map because no1 logged in, sometimes you don't. At least this way the more players from enemy players will have more fun rather than the side that has half numbers.

We can just use your logic to make it so that claim buff should be even stronger so even smaller groups can defend against larger groups. This doesn't make sense or seem fun, right? The other way makes much more sense. Reducing claim buff and increasing activity. Because attackers are the proactive side. Defending doesn't occur unless someone willingly attacks something.

WvW is supposed to be about epic fights for objectives, not epic fights or objectives

[TheGrimm.5624]

No I wouldn't touch this one. This adds more emphasis on taking it before it ranks to the point that it could be applied and more reasons to hold the structure if you are the defender. I can agree with some of the above that the radius could be contained to inside the keep versus on the open field around it. Attackers already have more of an edge since they can choose where and when to attack and as has been stated above attackers are more likely organised and defenders will be roamers in the area.

[Riba.3271]

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:No I wouldn't touch this one. This adds more emphasis on taking it before it ranks to the point that it could be applied and more reasons to hold the structure if you are the defender. I can agree with some of the above that the radius could be contained to inside the keep versus on the open field around it. Attackers already have more of an edge since they can choose where and when to attack and as has been stated above attackers are more likely organised and defenders will be roamers in the area.

WvW was functioning very well even before claim buff even started existing. Lack of tags online is the reason you have only "roamers" defending. The reason those tags don't log in is because if they don't have 60 people, stepping onto enemy bl, is a suicide. Even upgraded SM is the same. So they just sit around waiting for enemy to come to their BL. Oh wait, enemy commander is doing the same. Wow, no real commander on either side, I guess WvW is dead.

If there are more "attacks" on your bl, more people will log in to defend. If there is "dead" weeks, people won't be logging in.

It is simple, WvW needs more groups. Right now defending groups are so heavily favored that while people are willing to defend, they're not willing to attack. Commanders and guilds included.

You worry too much about roamers being able to defend against organised groups just because they have been able to do so for such a long time. Let them fail defending on their dueling builds for a few months and they will start logging good classes to defend things with, it isn't a problem. Catering to lazy players isn't the way to go. And no server should be able to hold T3 sm all day. And flipping upgraded EB/side keeps shouldn't be limited to nighttime or guildstacked blobs.

WvW is supposed to be about epic fights for objectives, not epic fights or objectives

[aspirine.6852]

I would certainly want to see how WvW works without the buff.. It might be easy for me to say it's fine since I am usually on the defending part.For sure it should be gone when you step 1 foot out of the keep, but since they adjusted much of the powercreep last week, perhaps this should be removed too :/

[TheGrimm.5624]

@"Threather.9354" said:WvW was functioning very well even before claim buff even started existing. Lack of tags online is the reason you have only "roamers" defending. The reason those tags don't log in is because if they don't have 60 people, stepping onto enemy bl, is a suicide. Even upgraded SM is the same. So they just sit around waiting for enemy to come to their BL. Oh wait, enemy commander is doing the same. Wow, no real commander on either side, I guess WvW is dead.

It is simple, WvW needs more groups. Right now defending groups are so heavily favored that while people are willing to defend, they're not willing to attack. Commanders and guilds included.

Your logic is flawed. Havocs already don't think about this buff because they know they are choosing when to attack something and it won't matter. I run both roamer and havoc and this never plays a factor into whether or not to attack something. Nor does its tier after they removed the extra HP from higher level walls. They have only strengthened attackers and reduced the Time to Take a structure over the last year. If this buff is causing a zerg to pause, that's just a mental block in the tags head or they broadcasted where they are going and didn't use advance forces to weaken something. There have never been tags dedicated to just defending, this has always been regulated to smaller forces if not individuals. There are some tags that will response but never that just defended that I have ever seen ranging from T1 to T8.

WvW could use more reasons for small scale but this buff is not one of the factors. If you are looking for that, up PPT and add in rewards for winning the week. But if you go there also up the personal rewards for PPK since killing other players is far more difficult than taking an empty structure.

[Infusion.7149]

I think I mentioned this when the balance preview was up. Keep/camp/tower bonuses should be reevaluated since you get +200 power and precision in a keep (along with toughness ad vitality) or +100 power and precision in a tower/camp.

In order to make bloodlust / ruins more attractive the bonus ought to be scaled down. That's a better reason than "it's harder to take things".

If the bonuses were reduced and the walls were restored to more hit points, you'd have a greater time for a response with more balanced stats if the number of players is relatively even.

[acidic.4356]

@"Threather.9354" said:WvW was functioning very well even before claim buff even started existing. Lack of tags online is the reason you have only "roamers" defending. The reason those tags don't log in is because if they don't have 60 people, stepping onto enemy bl, is a suicide. Even upgraded SM is the same. So they just sit around waiting for enemy to come to their BL. Oh wait, enemy commander is doing the same. Wow, no real commander on either side, I guess WvW is dead.

If there are more "attacks" on your bl, more people will log in to defend. If there is "dead" weeks, people won't be logging in.

It is simple, WvW needs more groups. Right now defending groups are so heavily favored that while people are willing to defend, they're not willing to attack. Commanders and guilds included.

You worry too much about roamers being able to defend against organised groups just because they have been able to do so for such a long time. Let them fail defending on their dueling builds for a few months and they will start logging good classes to defend things with, it isn't a problem. Catering to lazy players isn't the way to go. And no server should be able to hold T3 sm all day. And flipping upgraded EB/side keeps shouldn't be limited to nighttime or guildstacked blobs.

WvW is supposed to be about epic fights for objectives, not epic fights or objectives

so u need 60 ppl to step onto an enemy bl or its suicide.... hmmmm thats actually funny.....

more attacks on your bl makes ppl login to defend....... hmmmmm ye i see a bat symbol in the sky outside my house and know its time to login coz my garris gettin attacked.. haha.

wvw need more groups........... hmmmm id agree with needing more players whether they group up or not...

roamers can defend against orginised groups? hmmm.... maybe sometimes, but if they are really orginised...no... problem is most groups are not orginised..at all , someone simply tagging up and gathering some players together does not make it an orginised group/

roamers are lazy? they will bring proper classes if they fail too much at defending? hmmmm you dont seem to understand much about wvw, and your version of wvw would be one big karma train.

everyone should try roaming solo to learn their class and to be useful when there is no com to rely on. not that anyone should rely on a com for anything.

[acidic.4356]

@Aeolus.3615 said:I don’t mind presence of the keep, but imo it’s area that should be only inside the keep itself, rather the larger radios arround the keep.

this would be the way to go, or failing that just remove all tactics tbh... none of it was ever needed, its always been about numbers of attackers vs defenders... tactics are just a gimmick.

blood-lust is the same, kinda pointless... the only thing i could think of to make this more relevant would be to have some kind of dueling system, think queens gauntlet... so anyone who wanted to duel 1v1 could enter one of the blood-lust cages? (instead of ruins) and fight over the next 2 minutes of blood-lust buff... or something like that, could solve problems of duels being interrupted at south sentry or wherever they are dueling at the moment.. and would make it more interesting than standing on a node or 3 in total boredom.

[Riba.3271]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:WvW was functioning very well even before claim buff even started existing. Lack of tags online is the reason you have only "roamers" defending. The reason those tags don't log in is because if they don't have 60 people, stepping onto enemy bl, is a suicide. Even upgraded SM is the same. So they just sit around waiting for enemy to come to their BL. Oh wait, enemy commander is doing the same. Wow, no real commander on either side, I guess WvW is dead.

It is simple, WvW needs more groups. Right now defending groups are so heavily favored that while people are willing to defend, they're not willing to attack. Commanders and guilds included.

Your logic is flawed. Havocs already don't think about this buff because they know they are choosing when to attack something and it won't matter. I run both roamer and havoc and this never plays a factor into whether or not to attack something. Nor does its tier after they removed the extra HP from higher level walls. They have only strengthened attackers and reduced the Time to Take a structure over the last year. If this buff is causing a zerg to pause, that's just a mental block in the tags head or they broadcasted where they are going and didn't use advance forces to weaken something. There have never been tags dedicated to just defending, this has always been regulated to smaller forces if not individuals. There are some tags that will response but never that just defended that I have ever seen ranging from T1 to T8.

WvW could use more reasons for small scale but this buff is not one of the factors. If you are looking for that, up PPT and add in rewards for winning the week. But if you go there also up the personal rewards for PPK since killing other players is far more difficult than taking an empty structure.

Claim buff doesn't prevent you from taking empty structures, it prevents you from taking manned ones. Add 3 extra ascended trinkets worth of stats (800, in keeps) to defenders and you can see how busted the buff is. Try removing 2 ascended trinkets from your build and you will see how weak you are compared to before. You think it is only "800" stats but even much much smaller advantages make massive differences in PvP games. Like I am asking for them to reduce the stats for sake of PvP balance (think of any popular PvP game balancing) at locations, camps and upgraded keeps included.

You just don't understand how much difference having your own claim buff (400 stats or 800 stats) or enemy claim buff (400 or 800 stats) makes in how strong you are in fights. That is why people play defensive, not offensive. It isn't just 400 stat difference, it is way more, even up to 1600 for every player. There are no hierarchy of power between commanders, blobs, guilds, roamers because just STATS (not strategy, discipline or how you use tools provided (defender has much more)) decide fights.

Just try it, take 2 ascended trinks off and try saying you're still strong against people that have full build, go ahead. Claim buff is busted and shifts blobs/guilds winrate against another from 1 keep to another from 0% to 100% (not even considering respawns, tactics, siege, positioning and other defender advantages), even from 1 camp to another from like 35% to 65%. Are these numbers acceptable for a passive buff? No, I say.

WvW is supposed to be about epic fights for objectives, not epic fights or objectives

[Riba.3271]

@"Infusion.7149" said:I think I mentioned this when the balance preview was up. Keep/camp/tower bonuses should be reevaluated since you get +200 power and precision in a keep (along with toughness ad vitality) or +100 power and precision in a tower/camp.

In order to make bloodlust / ruins more attractive the bonus ought to be scaled down. That's a better reason than "it's harder to take things".

If the bonuses were reduced and the walls were restored to more hit points, you'd have a greater time for a response with more balanced stats if the number of players is relatively even.

Ah yeah, is this better way to look at it?

At friendly keep: Friendly Group has +800 stats ( +3 ascended trinkets)At enemy keep: Enemy group has +800 stats (+3 ascended trinkets)Difference between fighting at these locations: Godmode. Only one side needs to play "defensive" and the other can't do much even if he takes down all enemy siege down from a far playing patient and smarter than enemy.

Then what if all servers have 3 fully upgraded keeps on their borderlands? Well borderlands are unplayable, provided there are scouts, unless you somehow manage to gather 20 more people than enemy, which is hard on offensive BL because each server gets more players on home map.

Yes the stats should be toned down if it makes such a massive difference. Defenders have ton of other advantages, even more than before claim buff was introduced.

WvW is supposed to be about epic fights for objectives, not epic fights or objectives