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Mesmer needs buff

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Lincolnbeard.1735

Lincolnbeard.1735

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

-> 0.5 cast time
-> 0.75 cast time."Instant". I dont think you know what instant means. And Im pretty sure you needed a third attack too. All while the opponent did absolutely nothing against it. Yeah, so much for that.

The Shadowshot ones are also pretty clearly with you taking off your gear to push your defense stat lower to artificially up the damage. I dont have the time to do the
exact
math right now, but looking at the last time I did one of these calculations, this is about twice as much as is possible with the glassiest, highest damage build around. In other words, about what you would expect if a player were to take off their gear and lose all of the defense rating, lowering their armour in half and doubling the damage.

Mirror blade 0,75 cast timeMind stab 0,25 cast timeNo instant huehuehue.

Mirror-blade is pre-cast within stealth (Which you cant do with Black Powder or Heartseeker as they are
the way you enter stealth in the first place
. Mind Stab is not neccessary for the combo. Bad excuse.

BS, I was with all gear. It seems you're clueless regarding your own profession.It's easy go into arena, take all damage kitten you can get and test it.

Oh please, thats a bad lie and you should know better than to stick with it. But dont worry, once Im back and have some time, Ill do the exact damage calculation and show that you in fact are lying.

Crit 3 2 1Trickery 3 1 2DE 1 1 2

Go test it, then come here to apologize.

Edit: since you asked so nicely this is without armor:https://imgur.com/a/FzkqVaw

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They should give Mirage 2 Dodges back, period.And then remove Infinite Horizon at the same time :^)

Terrorhuz.4695

Terrorhuz.4695

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

That is really common sense that Thief hardcounters Mesmer, in particular power. The only power build has a little bit better chance vs Thieves was the old core PU and that also only when getting a oneshot out of nowhere.

Getting a oneshot out of nowhere
is
how power Mesmer works. Thats the whole idea of the build. And against thief its particularly easy, theyre really squishy, so just mirror blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike is a full oneshot that they cant react to. But even besides that, Mesmer still has an advantage, their damage is much higher, their sustain slightly higher, and their lockdown better. And hell, they are also largely immune to blinds given that their attacks are mostly multihits and they have several instant-cast ones, so even stuff like Smokescreen is not particularly useful.

Power mesmers immune to blind? Power mesmers are TOTALLY vulnerable to blind lol. The whole combo you are complaining about depends on gs2 hitting, which itself has a pretty high casting time. All you gotta do is blind that one skill to shut down a power mesmer.

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UNOwen.7132

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@bravan.3876 said:

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

That is really common sense that Thief hardcounters Mesmer, in particular power. The only power build has a little bit better chance vs Thieves was the old core PU and that also only when getting a oneshot out of nowhere.

Getting a oneshot out of nowhere
is
how power Mesmer works. Thats the whole idea of the build. And against thief its particularly easy, theyre really squishy, so just mirror blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike is a full oneshot that they cant react to. But even besides that, Mesmer still has an advantage, their damage is much higher, their sustain slightly higher, and their lockdown better. And hell, they are also largely immune to blinds given that their attacks are mostly multihits and they have several instant-cast ones, so even stuff like Smokescreen is not particularly useful.

No it is not, the only spec could do that was PU stealthspam, no other Powermes spec can oneshot "OUT OF NOWHERE", they only can oneshot on unaware ppl and ppl with too low reaction time and/ or no clue how to effectively counterplay it by the lack of class knowledge. Also there are plenty of power builds without oneshot dmg and for that not build around only oneshotting. A Thief who get hit by a Powermes (even a oneshot build) not using PU and did stealth stack from completely out of nowhere should deinstall. He lost vs something he hardcounters.

PU is not the only spec that can use Mass Invisibility or The Prestige. Thats all thats needed for oneshots out of nowhere. And no, reaction time is not relevant here, as I said, Mirror Blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike (not in that order) leaves no time to react at all, its guaranteed unless they predicted. And no, there really arent any power builds that arent about oneshotting. The most there is a bunker chrono build, but that one also beats thief (mainly because thief literally cant kill it).

Except as I have explained, Thief does
NOT
hard counter Power Mes. A thief who got hit by a oneshot build not using PU got hit by a burst that cannot be reacted to. Thats
expected
. There is
nothing
he couldve done. But as I explained, even if the Mesmer doesnt want to oneshot for some reason, they still beat thief. Higher damage, better survivability, better sustain, better CC lockdown. How exactly do you think thief is supposed ot beat that?

Ok then get oneshotted by Powermesmers without PU AS THIEF (rofl) then, when you try so hard to not accept every counter play, up to you, lucky not my problem.

Sometimes I wonder if you people are just intentionally being dense. Let me repeat myself. The oneshot
has no counterplay
. Here is how it goes. The Mesmer uses "The Prestige". They are in stealth for 3 seconds. The theif does not know theyre even there. The Mesmer goes up to the thief, pre-casts Mirror Blade, and then Power Spike and Mind Wrack. The thief is dead in <0.1 seconds, which is far below the fastest known human reaction time. He died. No counterplay. End of story. So, what was the "counterplay" here?

As said enjoy being oneshotted "out of nowhere" from a 3 seconds stealth Mesmer xDDDDDDDDDDNever happend to me in my whole life on no matter what class. Not my problem.

The fact that you seem to never face good Mesmers does not mean they dont exist. The fact is, they can do that. Basically the backstab burst from thief. Just way better in e every way.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

That is really common sense that Thief hardcounters Mesmer, in particular power. The only power build has a little bit better chance vs Thieves was the old core PU and that also only when getting a oneshot out of nowhere.

Getting a oneshot out of nowhere
is
how power Mesmer works. Thats the whole idea of the build. And against thief its particularly easy, theyre really squishy, so just mirror blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike is a full oneshot that they cant react to. But even besides that, Mesmer still has an advantage, their damage is much higher, their sustain slightly higher, and their lockdown better. And hell, they are also largely immune to blinds given that their attacks are mostly multihits and they have several instant-cast ones, so even stuff like Smokescreen is not particularly useful.

Power mesmers immune to blind? Power mesmers are TOTALLY vulnerable to blind lol. The whole combo you are complaining about depends on gs2 hitting, which itself has a pretty high casting time. All you gotta do is blind that one skill to shut down a power mesmer.

That was outside of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab.

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UNOwen.7132

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

-> 0.5 cast time
-> 0.75 cast time."Instant". I dont think you know what instant means. And Im pretty sure you needed a third attack too. All while the opponent did absolutely nothing against it. Yeah, so much for that.

The Shadowshot ones are also pretty clearly with you taking off your gear to push your defense stat lower to artificially up the damage. I dont have the time to do the
exact
math right now, but looking at the last time I did one of these calculations, this is about twice as much as is possible with the glassiest, highest damage build around. In other words, about what you would expect if a player were to take off their gear and lose all of the defense rating, lowering their armour in half and doubling the damage.

Mirror blade 0,75 cast timeMind stab 0,25 cast timeNo instant huehuehue.

Mirror-blade is pre-cast within stealth (Which you cant do with Black Powder or Heartseeker as they are
the way you enter stealth in the first place
. Mind Stab is not neccessary for the combo. Bad excuse.

BS, I was with all gear. It seems you're clueless regarding your own profession.It's easy go into arena, take all damage kitten you can get and test it.

Oh please, thats a bad lie and you should know better than to stick with it. But dont worry, once Im back and have some time, Ill do the exact damage calculation and show that you in fact are lying.

Crit 3 2 1Trickery 3 1 2DE 1 1 2

Go test it, then come here to apologize.

Edit: since you asked so nicely
this is without armor:

Lets do the math then. Im assuming its PvP, so that makes my job easier. Mesmers armor rating is 1888. Thieves power with activated Assassins Signet and quickness is 3115. Its a dual weild, so it uses the daggers weapon strength. 922.5. Scaling is 1.3125. So, the base damage is 3115*922.5*1.3125/1888=1997. Now, we just multiply it with every damage modifier we have. First, crit. 255.1% crit damage with Fury. So, we multiply it with 2.551. And just to start skipping ahead, 1.1 iron sight, 1.1 ferocious strikes, 1.07 twin fangs, 1.05 lead attacks, 1.12 scholars and weapon sigils(they stack additively). So, thats 1997*2.551*1.1*1.1*1.07*1.05*1.12=7.7k. Hm, higher than I expected, still significantly lower than your 9k. And thats the highest damage you can do, and were not even going to address the fact that this hypotethical build is completely unplayable.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

-> 0.5 cast time
-> 0.75 cast time."Instant". I dont think you know what instant means. And Im pretty sure you needed a third attack too. All while the opponent did absolutely nothing against it. Yeah, so much for that.

The Shadowshot ones are also pretty clearly with you taking off your gear to push your defense stat lower to artificially up the damage. I dont have the time to do the
exact
math right now, but looking at the last time I did one of these calculations, this is about twice as much as is possible with the glassiest, highest damage build around. In other words, about what you would expect if a player were to take off their gear and lose all of the defense rating, lowering their armour in half and doubling the damage.

Mirror blade 0,75 cast timeMind stab 0,25 cast timeNo instant huehuehue.

Mirror-blade is pre-cast within stealth (Which you cant do with Black Powder or Heartseeker as they are
the way you enter stealth in the first place
. Mind Stab is not neccessary for the combo. Bad excuse.

BS, I was with all gear. It seems you're clueless regarding your own profession.It's easy go into arena, take all damage kitten you can get and test it.

Oh please, thats a bad lie and you should know better than to stick with it. But dont worry, once Im back and have some time, Ill do the exact damage calculation and show that you in fact are lying.

Crit 3 2 1Trickery 3 1 2DE 1 1 2

Go test it, then come here to apologize.

Edit: since you asked so nicely
this is without armor:

Lets do the math then. Im assuming its PvP, so that makes my job easier. Mesmers armor rating is 1888. Thieves power with activated Assassins Signet and quickness is 3115. Its a dual weild, so it uses the daggers weapon strength. 922.5. Scaling is 1.3125. So, the base damage is 3115*922.5*1.3125/1888=1997. Now, we just multiply it with every damage modifier we have. First, crit. 255.1% crit damage with Fury. So, we multiply it with 2.551. And just to start skipping ahead, 1.1 iron sight, 1.1 ferocious strikes, 1.07 twin fangs, 1.05 lead attacks, 1.12 scholars and weapon sigils(they stack additively). So, thats 1997*2.551*1.1*1.1*1.07*1.05*1.12=7.7k. Hm, higher than I expected, still significantly lower than your 9k. And thats the highest damage you can do, and were not even going to address the fact that this hypotethical build is completely unplayable.

Yes the SS were fabricated.......Go test it in game, already gave you the build.

Guess what else is unplayable? Power mesmer/mirage/chrono.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

That is really common sense that Thief hardcounters Mesmer, in particular power. The only power build has a little bit better chance vs Thieves was the old core PU and that also only when getting a oneshot out of nowhere.

Getting a oneshot out of nowhere
is
how power Mesmer works. Thats the whole idea of the build. And against thief its particularly easy, theyre really squishy, so just mirror blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike is a full oneshot that they cant react to. But even besides that, Mesmer still has an advantage, their damage is much higher, their sustain slightly higher, and their lockdown better. And hell, they are also largely immune to blinds given that their attacks are mostly multihits and they have several instant-cast ones, so even stuff like Smokescreen is not particularly useful.

No it is not, the only spec could do that was PU stealthspam, no other Powermes spec can oneshot "OUT OF NOWHERE", they only can oneshot on unaware ppl and ppl with too low reaction time and/ or no clue how to effectively counterplay it by the lack of class knowledge. Also there are plenty of power builds without oneshot dmg and for that not build around only oneshotting. A Thief who get hit by a Powermes (even a oneshot build) not using PU and did stealth stack from completely out of nowhere should deinstall. He lost vs something he hardcounters.

PU is not the only spec that can use Mass Invisibility or The Prestige. Thats all thats needed for oneshots out of nowhere. And no, reaction time is not relevant here, as I said, Mirror Blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike (not in that order) leaves no time to react at all, its guaranteed unless they predicted. And no, there really arent any power builds that arent about oneshotting. The most there is a bunker chrono build, but that one also beats thief (mainly because thief literally cant kill it).

Except as I have explained, Thief does
NOT
hard counter Power Mes. A thief who got hit by a oneshot build not using PU got hit by a burst that cannot be reacted to. Thats
expected
. There is
nothing
he couldve done. But as I explained, even if the Mesmer doesnt want to oneshot for some reason, they still beat thief. Higher damage, better survivability, better sustain, better CC lockdown. How exactly do you think thief is supposed ot beat that?

Ok then get oneshotted by Powermesmers without PU AS THIEF (rofl) then, when you try so hard to not accept every counter play, up to you, lucky not my problem.

Sometimes I wonder if you people are just intentionally being dense. Let me repeat myself. The oneshot
has no counterplay
. Here is how it goes. The Mesmer uses "The Prestige". They are in stealth for 3 seconds. The theif does not know theyre even there. The Mesmer goes up to the thief, pre-casts Mirror Blade, and then Power Spike and Mind Wrack. The thief is dead in <0.1 seconds, which is far below the fastest known human reaction time. He died. No counterplay. End of story. So, what was the "counterplay" here?

As said enjoy being oneshotted "out of nowhere" from a 3 seconds stealth Mesmer xDDDDDDDDDDNever happend to me in my whole life on no matter what class. Not my problem.

The fact that you seem to never face good Mesmers does not mean they dont exist. The fact is, they can do that. Basically the backstab burst from thief. Just way better in e every way.

You have a funny definition of fact dude (did you learn that from crozame? i would not be surprised). I know and met more or less all good Mesmers in the game, condi and power, not only the few made it into plat3/legend. As said continue to get oneshot from 3 seconds stealth on a THIEF. Complaining and stating nonsense in forum is so much easier instead just improve ingame :joy: :joy: Feel ignored from now on, waste of time talking to you.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@Odik.4587 said:

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

That is really common sense that Thief hardcounters Mesmer, in particular power. The only power build has a little bit better chance vs Thieves was the old core PU and that also only when getting a oneshot out of nowhere.

Getting a oneshot out of nowhere
is
how power Mesmer works. Thats the whole idea of the build. And against thief its particularly easy, theyre really squishy, so just mirror blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike is a full oneshot that they cant react to. But even besides that, Mesmer still has an advantage, their damage is much higher, their sustain slightly higher, and their lockdown better. And hell, they are also largely immune to blinds given that their attacks are mostly multihits and they have several instant-cast ones, so even stuff like Smokescreen is not particularly useful.

No it is not, the only spec could do that was PU stealthspam, no other Powermes spec can oneshot "OUT OF NOWHERE", they only can oneshot on unaware ppl and ppl with too low reaction time and/ or no clue how to effectively counterplay it by the lack of class knowledge. Also there are plenty of power builds without oneshot dmg and for that not build around only oneshotting. A Thief who get hit by a Powermes (even a oneshot build) not using PU and did stealth stack from completely out of nowhere should deinstall. He lost vs something he hardcounters.

PU is not the only spec that can use Mass Invisibility or The Prestige. Thats all thats needed for oneshots out of nowhere. And no, reaction time is not relevant here, as I said, Mirror Blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike (not in that order) leaves no time to react at all, its guaranteed unless they predicted. And no, there really arent any power builds that arent about oneshotting. The most there is a bunker chrono build, but that one also beats thief (mainly because thief literally cant kill it).

Except as I have explained, Thief does
NOT
hard counter Power Mes. A thief who got hit by a oneshot build not using PU got hit by a burst that cannot be reacted to. Thats
expected
. There is
nothing
he couldve done. But as I explained, even if the Mesmer doesnt want to oneshot for some reason, they still beat thief. Higher damage, better survivability, better sustain, better CC lockdown. How exactly do you think thief is supposed ot beat that?

Ok then get oneshotted by Powermesmers without PU AS THIEF (rofl) then, when you try so hard to not accept every counter play, up to you, lucky not my problem.

Sometimes I wonder if you people are just intentionally being dense. Let me repeat myself. The oneshot
has no counterplay
. Here is how it goes. The Mesmer uses "The Prestige". They are in stealth for 3 seconds. The theif does not know theyre even there. The Mesmer goes up to the thief, pre-casts Mirror Blade, and then Power Spike and Mind Wrack. The thief is dead in <0.1 seconds, which is far below the fastest known human reaction time. He died. No counterplay. End of story. So, what was the "counterplay" here?

As said enjoy being oneshotted "out of nowhere" from a 3 seconds stealth Mesmer xDDDDDDDDDDNever happend to me in my whole life on no matter what class. Not my problem.

The fact that you seem to never face good Mesmers does not mean they dont exist. The fact is, they can do that. Basically the backstab burst from thief. Just way better in e every way.

You have a funny definition of fact dude (did you learn that from crozame? i would not be surprised). I know and met more or less all good Mesmers in the game, condi and power, not only the few made it into plat3/legend. As said continue to get oneshot from 3 seconds stealth on a THIEF. Complaining and stating nonsense in forum is so much easier instead just improve ingame :joy: :joy: Feel ignored from now on, waste of time talking to you.Dude,its even funnier, because he cant do proper MATH he accuse everyone in lying and because he KNOWS that he refuse to test it HIMSELF. That was lost case since the beginning :joy:

Just wondering from what backwater those ppl come out to regather in each Mesmer thread, the missing ability to keep apart fact, logic, explanation from simple claim or opinion is stunning. Anyway enough time wasted, ignoring is all i can do or i start to be honest with them, what would get me banned most likely. Some ppl rly don't worth the time of an answer and the effort of a ban.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@Odik.4587 said:Eh, why do I even bother

@bravan.3876 said:

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

That is really common sense that Thief hardcounters Mesmer, in particular power. The only power build has a little bit better chance vs Thieves was the old core PU and that also only when getting a oneshot out of nowhere.

Getting a oneshot out of nowhere
is
how power Mesmer works. Thats the whole idea of the build. And against thief its particularly easy, theyre really squishy, so just mirror blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike is a full oneshot that they cant react to. But even besides that, Mesmer still has an advantage, their damage is much higher, their sustain slightly higher, and their lockdown better. And hell, they are also largely immune to blinds given that their attacks are mostly multihits and they have several instant-cast ones, so even stuff like Smokescreen is not particularly useful.

No it is not, the only spec could do that was PU stealthspam, no other Powermes spec can oneshot "OUT OF NOWHERE", they only can oneshot on unaware ppl and ppl with too low reaction time and/ or no clue how to effectively counterplay it by the lack of class knowledge. Also there are plenty of power builds without oneshot dmg and for that not build around only oneshotting. A Thief who get hit by a Powermes (even a oneshot build) not using PU and did stealth stack from completely out of nowhere should deinstall. He lost vs something he hardcounters.

PU is not the only spec that can use Mass Invisibility or The Prestige. Thats all thats needed for oneshots out of nowhere. And no, reaction time is not relevant here, as I said, Mirror Blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike (not in that order) leaves no time to react at all, its guaranteed unless they predicted. And no, there really arent any power builds that arent about oneshotting. The most there is a bunker chrono build, but that one also beats thief (mainly because thief literally cant kill it).

Except as I have explained, Thief does
NOT
hard counter Power Mes. A thief who got hit by a oneshot build not using PU got hit by a burst that cannot be reacted to. Thats
expected
. There is
nothing
he couldve done. But as I explained, even if the Mesmer doesnt want to oneshot for some reason, they still beat thief. Higher damage, better survivability, better sustain, better CC lockdown. How exactly do you think thief is supposed ot beat that?

Ok then get oneshotted by Powermesmers without PU AS THIEF (rofl) then, when you try so hard to not accept every counter play, up to you, lucky not my problem.

Sometimes I wonder if you people are just intentionally being dense. Let me repeat myself. The oneshot
has no counterplay
. Here is how it goes. The Mesmer uses "The Prestige". They are in stealth for 3 seconds. The theif does not know theyre even there. The Mesmer goes up to the thief, pre-casts Mirror Blade, and then Power Spike and Mind Wrack. The thief is dead in <0.1 seconds, which is far below the fastest known human reaction time. He died. No counterplay. End of story. So, what was the "counterplay" here?

As said enjoy being oneshotted "out of nowhere" from a 3 seconds stealth Mesmer xDDDDDDDDDDNever happend to me in my whole life on no matter what class. Not my problem.

The fact that you seem to never face good Mesmers does not mean they dont exist. The fact is, they can do that. Basically the backstab burst from thief. Just way better in e every way.

You have a funny definition of fact dude (did you learn that from crozame? i would not be surprised). I know and met more or less all good Mesmers in the game, condi and power, not only the few made it into plat3/legend. As said continue to get oneshot from 3 seconds stealth on a THIEF. Complaining and stating nonsense in forum is so much easier instead just improve ingame :joy: :joy: Feel ignored from now on, waste of time talking to you.Dude,its even funnier, because he cant do proper MATH he accuse everyone in lying and because he KNOWS that he refuse to test it HIMSELF. That was lost case since the beginning :joy:

Just wondering from what backwater those ppl come out to regather in each Mesmer thread, the missing ability to keep apart fact, logic, explanation and simple claim or opinion is stunning. Anyway enough time wasted, ignoring is all i can do or i start to be honest with them, what would get me banned most likely. Some ppl rly don't worth the time of an answer and the effort of a ban.

You too late xD

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@bravan.3876 said:

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

That is really common sense that Thief hardcounters Mesmer, in particular power. The only power build has a little bit better chance vs Thieves was the old core PU and that also only when getting a oneshot out of nowhere.

Getting a oneshot out of nowhere
is
how power Mesmer works. Thats the whole idea of the build. And against thief its particularly easy, theyre really squishy, so just mirror blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike is a full oneshot that they cant react to. But even besides that, Mesmer still has an advantage, their damage is much higher, their sustain slightly higher, and their lockdown better. And hell, they are also largely immune to blinds given that their attacks are mostly multihits and they have several instant-cast ones, so even stuff like Smokescreen is not particularly useful.

No it is not, the only spec could do that was PU stealthspam, no other Powermes spec can oneshot "OUT OF NOWHERE", they only can oneshot on unaware ppl and ppl with too low reaction time and/ or no clue how to effectively counterplay it by the lack of class knowledge. Also there are plenty of power builds without oneshot dmg and for that not build around only oneshotting. A Thief who get hit by a Powermes (even a oneshot build) not using PU and did stealth stack from completely out of nowhere should deinstall. He lost vs something he hardcounters.

PU is not the only spec that can use Mass Invisibility or The Prestige. Thats all thats needed for oneshots out of nowhere. And no, reaction time is not relevant here, as I said, Mirror Blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike (not in that order) leaves no time to react at all, its guaranteed unless they predicted. And no, there really arent any power builds that arent about oneshotting. The most there is a bunker chrono build, but that one also beats thief (mainly because thief literally cant kill it).

Except as I have explained, Thief does
NOT
hard counter Power Mes. A thief who got hit by a oneshot build not using PU got hit by a burst that cannot be reacted to. Thats
expected
. There is
nothing
he couldve done. But as I explained, even if the Mesmer doesnt want to oneshot for some reason, they still beat thief. Higher damage, better survivability, better sustain, better CC lockdown. How exactly do you think thief is supposed ot beat that?

Ok then get oneshotted by Powermesmers without PU AS THIEF (rofl) then, when you try so hard to not accept every counter play, up to you, lucky not my problem.

Sometimes I wonder if you people are just intentionally being dense. Let me repeat myself. The oneshot
has no counterplay
. Here is how it goes. The Mesmer uses "The Prestige". They are in stealth for 3 seconds. The theif does not know theyre even there. The Mesmer goes up to the thief, pre-casts Mirror Blade, and then Power Spike and Mind Wrack. The thief is dead in <0.1 seconds, which is far below the fastest known human reaction time. He died. No counterplay. End of story. So, what was the "counterplay" here?

As said enjoy being oneshotted "out of nowhere" from a 3 seconds stealth Mesmer xDDDDDDDDDDNever happend to me in my whole life on no matter what class. Not my problem.

The fact that you seem to never face good Mesmers does not mean they dont exist. The fact is, they can do that. Basically the backstab burst from thief. Just way better in e every way.

You have a funny definition of fact dude (did you learn that from crozame? i would not be surprised). I know and met more or less all good Mesmers in the game, condi and power, not only the few made it into plat3/legend. As said continue to get oneshot from 3 seconds stealth on a THIEF. Complaining and stating nonsense in forum is so much easier instead just improve ingame :joy: :joy: Feel ignored from now on, waste of time talking to you.

No, I have a normal definition of fact. I just fear that you might think "fact" means "what I want to be true even if it is not". And clearly you havent, given that you seriously think they cant oneshot something as squishy as thief. But dont worry, Ill finish the math on their (unreactable) burst in a bit, and then you will see that they in fact can do more than enough damage, and that your denial of fact looks bad.

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UNOwen.7132

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

-> 0.5 cast time
-> 0.75 cast time."Instant". I dont think you know what instant means. And Im pretty sure you needed a third attack too. All while the opponent did absolutely nothing against it. Yeah, so much for that.

The Shadowshot ones are also pretty clearly with you taking off your gear to push your defense stat lower to artificially up the damage. I dont have the time to do the
exact
math right now, but looking at the last time I did one of these calculations, this is about twice as much as is possible with the glassiest, highest damage build around. In other words, about what you would expect if a player were to take off their gear and lose all of the defense rating, lowering their armour in half and doubling the damage.

Mirror blade 0,75 cast timeMind stab 0,25 cast timeNo instant huehuehue.

Mirror-blade is pre-cast within stealth (Which you cant do with Black Powder or Heartseeker as they are
the way you enter stealth in the first place
. Mind Stab is not neccessary for the combo. Bad excuse.

BS, I was with all gear. It seems you're clueless regarding your own profession.It's easy go into arena, take all damage kitten you can get and test it.

Oh please, thats a bad lie and you should know better than to stick with it. But dont worry, once Im back and have some time, Ill do the exact damage calculation and show that you in fact are lying.

Crit 3 2 1Trickery 3 1 2DE 1 1 2

Go test it, then come here to apologize.

Edit: since you asked so nicely
this is without armor:

Lets do the math then. Im assuming its PvP, so that makes my job easier. Mesmers armor rating is 1888. Thieves power with activated Assassins Signet and quickness is 3115. Its a dual weild, so it uses the daggers weapon strength. 922.5. Scaling is 1.3125. So, the base damage is 3115*922.5*1.3125/1888=1997. Now, we just multiply it with every damage modifier we have. First, crit. 255.1% crit damage with Fury. So, we multiply it with 2.551. And just to start skipping ahead, 1.1 iron sight, 1.1 ferocious strikes, 1.07 twin fangs, 1.05 lead attacks, 1.12 scholars and weapon sigils(they stack additively). So, thats 1997*2.551*1.1*1.1*1.07*1.05*1.12=7.7k. Hm, higher than I expected, still significantly lower than your 9k. And thats the highest damage you can do, and were not even going to address the fact that this hypotethical build is completely unplayable.

Yes the SS were fabricated.......Go test it in game, already gave you the build.

Guess what else is unplayable? Power mesmer/mirage/chrono.

I dont know what setup you used to pump up the damage numbers. But math (which is infallible) has shown the damage you have shown to be, simply put, impossible without fabrication. But just to humour you, I did test it. You get one guess what happened. If you guessed "the damage lined up perfectly with the math and was significantly lower than your fabricated damage", then congratulations. You are correct. Seriously though, you Mesmer mains take this roleplaying thing a bit too serious, just because your class is all about deception, doesnt mean you should be.

Oh yeah, I forgot, we talked about the difference in burst between Mesmer and Thief. Ill quickly calculate Mesmers burst then. Im gonna actually use the metabattle build though instead of an artificial one that tries to up the damage as much as possible. Thieves armour rating is 2029. Now here is where it gets tricks, since Mesmer is multiple hits at the same time, the damage gets messy. Specifically, vulnerability from Mirror Blade and Power Spike, and Power from Mirror Blades might. Way Im going to handle it is that I simply apply it to the next one, so mirror blade wont benefit from its own vulnerability or might. Less damage than the actual burst, but easier to calculate. So, Mesmers power is 2375. With Mirror Blades might, its 2645. Power Spike applies 12 vulnerability, Mirror Blade applies 12. The scalings Ive mentioned above, but its 0.45 for Power Spike, Mirror blade 1.57. Mind Wrack 2.0. Greatswords weapon strength is 1015. Time to do math.

So, were gonna calculate the 3 base damages first, then the multipliers. Power spike is (0.45*2375*1015)/2029=534. Mirror Blade is (1.57*2375*1015)/2029=1865. Mind Wrack is (2.0*2645*1015)/2029=2646. Now, multipliers. Power Spike gets affected by Scholar, the weapon sigils, and of course Superiority Complex boosted crit. So, 1.12 and 2.4. Thats 534*1.12*2.4=1435. Now, Mirror Blade. Here it gets more interesting. Since Power Spike did damage, egotism kicks in. Additionally, Power Spike applied 12 vulnerability, futher increasing damage by 18% thanks to Fragility. So its 1865*1.12*2.4*1.05*1.18=6211 damage. Now, at this point against a thief, Superiority Complex's second part would also kick in. But Im going to ignore it. Just because its too close (And unneccessary). However, now the target has 24 vulnerability. Which means 1.36 increase. Additionally, shatters benefit from Shattered Anguish, which adds another 1.2. So, thats 2646*1.12*2.4*1.05*1.36*1.2= 12188 damage. Total damage: 1435+6211+12188=19834 damage. Remember, even your max malice malicious backstab didnt do this much damage. And Mesmers actual damage is higher since I didnt include Superiority Complex's second part, or the might and vulnerability on each hit of Mirror Blade.

So yeah, Mesmers burst is way higher. And this is just the version that cant be reacted to. If you want more damage you can then follow up with Mind Stab and Phantasmal Berserker. But theyre totally superfluous.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

That is really common sense that Thief hardcounters Mesmer, in particular power. The only power build has a little bit better chance vs Thieves was the old core PU and that also only when getting a oneshot out of nowhere.

Getting a oneshot out of nowhere
is
how power Mesmer works. Thats the whole idea of the build. And against thief its particularly easy, theyre really squishy, so just mirror blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike is a full oneshot that they cant react to. But even besides that, Mesmer still has an advantage, their damage is much higher, their sustain slightly higher, and their lockdown better. And hell, they are also largely immune to blinds given that their attacks are mostly multihits and they have several instant-cast ones, so even stuff like Smokescreen is not particularly useful.

No it is not, the only spec could do that was PU stealthspam, no other Powermes spec can oneshot "OUT OF NOWHERE", they only can oneshot on unaware ppl and ppl with too low reaction time and/ or no clue how to effectively counterplay it by the lack of class knowledge. Also there are plenty of power builds without oneshot dmg and for that not build around only oneshotting. A Thief who get hit by a Powermes (even a oneshot build) not using PU and did stealth stack from completely out of nowhere should deinstall. He lost vs something he hardcounters.

PU is not the only spec that can use Mass Invisibility or The Prestige. Thats all thats needed for oneshots out of nowhere. And no, reaction time is not relevant here, as I said, Mirror Blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike (not in that order) leaves no time to react at all, its guaranteed unless they predicted. And no, there really arent any power builds that arent about oneshotting. The most there is a bunker chrono build, but that one also beats thief (mainly because thief literally cant kill it).

Except as I have explained, Thief does
NOT
hard counter Power Mes. A thief who got hit by a oneshot build not using PU got hit by a burst that cannot be reacted to. Thats
expected
. There is
nothing
he couldve done. But as I explained, even if the Mesmer doesnt want to oneshot for some reason, they still beat thief. Higher damage, better survivability, better sustain, better CC lockdown. How exactly do you think thief is supposed ot beat that?

Ok then get oneshotted by Powermesmers without PU AS THIEF (rofl) then, when you try so hard to not accept every counter play, up to you, lucky not my problem.

Sometimes I wonder if you people are just intentionally being dense. Let me repeat myself. The oneshot
has no counterplay
. Here is how it goes. The Mesmer uses "The Prestige". They are in stealth for 3 seconds. The theif does not know theyre even there. The Mesmer goes up to the thief, pre-casts Mirror Blade, and then Power Spike and Mind Wrack. The thief is dead in <0.1 seconds, which is far below the fastest known human reaction time. He died. No counterplay. End of story. So, what was the "counterplay" here?

As said enjoy being oneshotted "out of nowhere" from a 3 seconds stealth Mesmer xDDDDDDDDDDNever happend to me in my whole life on no matter what class. Not my problem.

The fact that you seem to never face good Mesmers does not mean they dont exist. The fact is, they can do that. Basically the backstab burst from thief. Just way better in e every way.

You have a funny definition of fact dude (did you learn that from crozame? i would not be surprised). I know and met more or less all good Mesmers in the game, condi and power, not only the few made it into plat3/legend. As said continue to get oneshot from 3 seconds stealth on a THIEF. Complaining and stating nonsense in forum is so much easier instead just improve ingame :joy: :joy: Feel ignored from now on, waste of time talking to you.

No, I have a normal definition of fact. I just fear that you might think "fact" means "what I want to be true even if it is not". And clearly you havent, given that you seriously think they cant oneshot something as squishy as thief. But dont worry, Ill finish the math on their (unreactable) burst in a bit, and then you will see that they in fact can do more than enough damage, and that your denial of fact looks bad.

So that you assume i never met a good Mesmer while probably playing 4 divisions above you in PvP and without you knowing anything of me is a fact? Holy cow, little padawan you have to learn a lot about life still. Also l2read, that they had the dmg (at least pre patch) was never the point, the point is that without PU it has easy counters and is not out of nowhere. If you lose to a Mesmer coming to you from 3 seconds stealth is a pure l2p issue, in particular as Thief what hardcounters Powermes. Just a little tip to give this converation at least 1/10000000000 of value (at least for other ppl reading and willing to learn): play with sound on. No need to thank me. Enjoy getting oneshot bro. And that was my last reply to you, no matter what nonsense you come up with next. I can't deal with that high amount of narrowness, sry for that, i am only a human. God forgive me that weakness.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Odik.4587 said:Dude,its even funnier, because he cant do proper MATH he accuse everyone in lying and because he KNOWS that he refuse to test it HIMSELF. That was lost case since the beginning :joy:

Except I have tested it. Unlike math its subjective so not worth as much, but the result lined up perfectly with the math. And no, I can do proper math. Of course, if you thought that there was an error somewhere, you would say so and point out the error. But you know there isnt one. You know my math is correct, the damage numbers I stated were correct, and that the other guy was, as Mesmer mains seem to like to do, fabricating damage.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

-> 0.5 cast time
-> 0.75 cast time."Instant". I dont think you know what instant means. And Im pretty sure you needed a third attack too. All while the opponent did absolutely nothing against it. Yeah, so much for that.

The Shadowshot ones are also pretty clearly with you taking off your gear to push your defense stat lower to artificially up the damage. I dont have the time to do the
exact
math right now, but looking at the last time I did one of these calculations, this is about twice as much as is possible with the glassiest, highest damage build around. In other words, about what you would expect if a player were to take off their gear and lose all of the defense rating, lowering their armour in half and doubling the damage.

Mirror blade 0,75 cast timeMind stab 0,25 cast timeNo instant huehuehue.

Mirror-blade is pre-cast within stealth (Which you cant do with Black Powder or Heartseeker as they are
the way you enter stealth in the first place
. Mind Stab is not neccessary for the combo. Bad excuse.

BS, I was with all gear. It seems you're clueless regarding your own profession.It's easy go into arena, take all damage kitten you can get and test it.

Oh please, thats a bad lie and you should know better than to stick with it. But dont worry, once Im back and have some time, Ill do the exact damage calculation and show that you in fact are lying.

Crit 3 2 1Trickery 3 1 2DE 1 1 2

Go test it, then come here to apologize.

Edit: since you asked so nicely
this is without armor:

Lets do the math then. Im assuming its PvP, so that makes my job easier. Mesmers armor rating is 1888. Thieves power with activated Assassins Signet and quickness is 3115. Its a dual weild, so it uses the daggers weapon strength. 922.5. Scaling is 1.3125. So, the base damage is 3115*922.5*1.3125/1888=1997. Now, we just multiply it with every damage modifier we have. First, crit. 255.1% crit damage with Fury. So, we multiply it with 2.551. And just to start skipping ahead, 1.1 iron sight, 1.1 ferocious strikes, 1.07 twin fangs, 1.05 lead attacks, 1.12 scholars and weapon sigils(they stack additively). So, thats 1997*2.551*1.1*1.1*1.07*1.05*1.12=7.7k. Hm, higher than I expected, still significantly lower than your 9k. And thats the highest damage you can do, and were not even going to address the fact that this hypotethical build is completely unplayable.

Yes the SS were fabricated.......Go test it in game, already gave you the build.

Guess what else is unplayable? Power mesmer/mirage/chrono.

I dont know what setup you used to pump up the damage numbers. But math (which is infallible) has shown the damage you have shown to be, simply put, impossible without fabrication. But just to humour you, I did test it. You get one guess what happened. If you guessed "the damage lined up
perfectly
with the math and was significantly lower than your fabricated damage", then congratulations. You are correct. Seriously though, you Mesmer mains take this roleplaying thing a bit too serious, just because your class is all about deception, doesnt mean you should be.

Oh yeah, I forgot, we talked about the difference in burst between Mesmer and Thief. Ill quickly calculate Mesmers burst then. Im gonna actually use the metabattle build though instead of an artificial one that tries to up the damage as much as possible. Thieves armour rating is 2029. Now here is where it gets tricks, since Mesmer is multiple hits at the same time, the damage gets messy. Specifically, vulnerability from Mirror Blade and Power Spike, and Power from Mirror Blades might. Way Im going to handle it is that I simply apply it to the next one, so mirror blade wont benefit from its own vulnerability or might. Less damage than the actual burst, but easier to calculate. So, Mesmers power is 2375. With Mirror Blades might, its 2645. Power Spike applies 12 vulnerability, Mirror Blade applies 12. The scalings Ive mentioned above, but its 0.45 for Power Spike, Mirror blade 1.57. Mind Wrack 2.0. Greatswords weapon strength is 1015. Time to do math.

So, were gonna calculate the 3 base damages first, then the multipliers. Power spike is (0.45*2375*1015)/2029=534. Mirror Blade is (1.57*2375*1015)/2029=1865. Mind Wrack is (2.0*2645*1015)/2029=2646. Now, multipliers. Power Spike gets affected by Scholar, the weapon sigils, and of course Superiority Complex boosted crit. So, 1.12 and 2.4. Thats 534*1.12*2.4=1435. Now, Mirror Blade. Here it gets more interesting. Since Power Spike did damage, egotism kicks in. Additionally, Power Spike applied 12 vulnerability, futher increasing damage by 18% thanks to Fragility. So its 1865*1.12*2.4*1.05*1.18=6211 damage. Now, at this point against a thief, Superiority Complex's second part would also kick in. But Im going to ignore it. Just because its too close (And unneccessary). However, now the target has 24 vulnerability. Which means 1.36 increase. Additionally, shatters benefit from Shattered Anguish, which adds another 1.2. So, thats 2646*1.12*2.4*1.05*1.36*1.2= 12188 damage. Total damage: 1435+6211+12188=19834 damage. Remember, even your max malice malicious backstab didnt do this much damage. And Mesmers actual damage is
higher
since I didnt include Superiority Complex's second part, or the might and vulnerability on each hit of Mirror Blade.

So yeah, Mesmers burst is way higher. And this is just the version that cant be reacted to. If you want more damage you can then follow up with Mind Stab and Phantasmal Berserker. But theyre totally superfluous.

zerker amuletThe build is above as are the utilities on the ss.And are you a thief main when you cant even replicate someone who doesn't main thief did...

As for your calculations can't be bothered, as proved on the shadowshot above they fail by a large margin.But you can go on game and do that and post an ss like I did.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@bravan.3876 said:

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

That is really common sense that Thief hardcounters Mesmer, in particular power. The only power build has a little bit better chance vs Thieves was the old core PU and that also only when getting a oneshot out of nowhere.

Getting a oneshot out of nowhere
is
how power Mesmer works. Thats the whole idea of the build. And against thief its particularly easy, theyre really squishy, so just mirror blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike is a full oneshot that they cant react to. But even besides that, Mesmer still has an advantage, their damage is much higher, their sustain slightly higher, and their lockdown better. And hell, they are also largely immune to blinds given that their attacks are mostly multihits and they have several instant-cast ones, so even stuff like Smokescreen is not particularly useful.

No it is not, the only spec could do that was PU stealthspam, no other Powermes spec can oneshot "OUT OF NOWHERE", they only can oneshot on unaware ppl and ppl with too low reaction time and/ or no clue how to effectively counterplay it by the lack of class knowledge. Also there are plenty of power builds without oneshot dmg and for that not build around only oneshotting. A Thief who get hit by a Powermes (even a oneshot build) not using PU and did stealth stack from completely out of nowhere should deinstall. He lost vs something he hardcounters.

PU is not the only spec that can use Mass Invisibility or The Prestige. Thats all thats needed for oneshots out of nowhere. And no, reaction time is not relevant here, as I said, Mirror Blade + Mind Wrack + Power Spike (not in that order) leaves no time to react at all, its guaranteed unless they predicted. And no, there really arent any power builds that arent about oneshotting. The most there is a bunker chrono build, but that one also beats thief (mainly because thief literally cant kill it).

Except as I have explained, Thief does
NOT
hard counter Power Mes. A thief who got hit by a oneshot build not using PU got hit by a burst that cannot be reacted to. Thats
expected
. There is
nothing
he couldve done. But as I explained, even if the Mesmer doesnt want to oneshot for some reason, they still beat thief. Higher damage, better survivability, better sustain, better CC lockdown. How exactly do you think thief is supposed ot beat that?

Ok then get oneshotted by Powermesmers without PU AS THIEF (rofl) then, when you try so hard to not accept every counter play, up to you, lucky not my problem.

Sometimes I wonder if you people are just intentionally being dense. Let me repeat myself. The oneshot
has no counterplay
. Here is how it goes. The Mesmer uses "The Prestige". They are in stealth for 3 seconds. The theif does not know theyre even there. The Mesmer goes up to the thief, pre-casts Mirror Blade, and then Power Spike and Mind Wrack. The thief is dead in <0.1 seconds, which is far below the fastest known human reaction time. He died. No counterplay. End of story. So, what was the "counterplay" here?

As said enjoy being oneshotted "out of nowhere" from a 3 seconds stealth Mesmer xDDDDDDDDDDNever happend to me in my whole life on no matter what class. Not my problem.

The fact that you seem to never face good Mesmers does not mean they dont exist. The fact is, they can do that. Basically the backstab burst from thief. Just way better in e every way.

You have a funny definition of fact dude (did you learn that from crozame? i would not be surprised). I know and met more or less all good Mesmers in the game, condi and power, not only the few made it into plat3/legend. As said continue to get oneshot from 3 seconds stealth on a THIEF. Complaining and stating nonsense in forum is so much easier instead just improve ingame :joy: :joy: Feel ignored from now on, waste of time talking to you.

No, I have a normal definition of fact. I just fear that you might think "fact" means "what I want to be true even if it is not". And clearly you havent, given that you seriously think they cant oneshot something as squishy as thief. But dont worry, Ill finish the math on their (unreactable) burst in a bit, and then you will see that they in fact can do more than enough damage, and that your denial of fact looks bad.

So that you assume i never met a good Mesmer while probably playing 4 divisions above you in PvP and without you knowing anything of me is a fact? Holy cow, little padawan you have to learn a lot about life still. Also l2read, that they had the dmg (at least pre patch) was never the point, the point is that without PU it has easy counters and is not out of nowhere. If you lose to a Mesmer coming to you from 3 seconds stealth is a pure l2p issue, in particular as Thief what hardcounters Powermes. Just a little tip to give this converation at least 1/10000000000 of value (at least for other ppl reading and willing to learn): play with sound on. No need to thank, me. Enjoy getting oneshot bro. And that was my last reply to you, no matter what nonsense you come up with next. I can't deal with that high amount of narrowness, sry for that, i am only a human. God forgive me that weakness.

Im assuming that because you said something that you wouldnt say if you have. Call it inferring knowledge.

You keep mentioning "oh it totally has counters", yet strangely enough, you have yet to mention any. Now I know this is because you know there arent any, and as such there isnt anything to mention, but do humour me, what are your supposed counters?

Thats your counter? Sound? So basically, youre saying "try to guess after you know a Mesmer is in the area, when exactly they hit, and pre-dodge them and hope they dont just stow weapons". Or at least, that would be what youre saying, if it werent for a teeny tiny problem. Think about it, if this worked, then thief would be just as screwed, their stealth also all has strong audio cues, but also strong visual cues that persist. Now, why is it then that it doesnt work? Simple. Sound does not go accross the entire map. It weakens with distance, before it completely disappears. Mesmer and Thief stealth up past that range. You dont get to hear the audio cue, or see their black powder/smokescreen.

If that was your entire "counter". Then Im sorry, it doesnt even work, and would apply to thief equally if it did work. So, yeah, as I said, same as backstab, but better. Despite you really not wanting that to be true.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

zerker amuletThe build is above as are the utilities on the ss.And are you a thief main when you cant even replicate someone who doesn't main thief did...

I used all of that. Seriously, how else do you think I reached 3.1k power? And the point was to find the truth, not replicate what you did. I couldve replicated it easily. Simply fabricate it like you did. Ask a Mesmer to take off gear. Stack up might. There are a number of ways. But that would miss the point of the exercise.

As for your calculations can't be bothered, as proved on the shadowshot above they fail by a large margin.But you can go on game and do that and post an ss like I did.

"I can see that your math, which is the exact way the game calculates the damage, is correct and as such the infallible truth, and I have no response and still dont want to admit that I fabricated the result, so Im going to desperately try to call back to in-game screenshots hoping that you cant be bothered to do that and show that I did in fact lie.". Yeah, sorry, thats not gonna work. Here you go. A screenshot showing me doing the damage with your same exact build. Now, you might notice that at 6.9k, its a bit lower than the 7.7k I mentioned. There are 2 reasons. First, I got hit by some other bloke, so Scholars wasnt active. Second, he wasnt below 50% health, so Exposure wasnt applied. So, just take the 7.7k, divide them by 1.12, and multiply them with 1.02. Which gives you 7k damage. Slight damage variation in the game, but as I said. Lines up perfectly.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

I feel like something is missing from this story tbh. Not saying it can't, but Phantasmal Rogue hitting 7K backstab on a medium armor target seems.. unlikely? I honestly don't know. If someone better at crunching the numbers says it's possible, I'll believe it.

"all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k" --> sounds like you were hit by a shatter? Maybe your opponent ordered a shatter before going downed, and the lovely AI pathfinding caused a delayed shatter? Then the PR finished you off?

I did something similar to a DE in 1v1 recently. My Phantasmal Mage with its S+ timing and targeting (/s) downed the DE right after I was downed. This put him in downstate with a long burn stack and some confusion, which he was making worse by using his downstate 1 ability on me. Then I rallied after my PR finished him.

Point is, maybe you were downed by more than just PR?

nah, phantasms hit high numbers due to them using thier own weapon numbers that are twice as high if not more of other weapons.so even tho it has 1.15 coof its actually 2.3+ and bonus from back hit pushes it to almost 3.0 coof. almost as much as pet autoattack.I have seen up to 15k rogues before the patch.And now its propably even possible to hit bigger numbers if you get might and oponent still somehow has 20+ vunl stacks.mostly its just 2-8k hits

Ok. I was watching my PR extra carefully today because of this discussion and I wasn't seeing higher than 2K-ish backstabs. Maybe I got a dud. :pensive:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I wish I coulda screen shot the mirage downstate bursting me for 7k lmao. That's complete bs lol I killed him and was poking with sb and had over 7k actually and bam bursted down to downstate. That's fing ridiculous

is this any different the ranger bursting you with pet, condi thief applying 10 stacks of poison etc etc? no? move along

Yeah cuz being insta burst for 7k from a downed mesmer is like thief's downstate poking with its poison lmao even rangers isnt that broken. Yes rangers revive is broken but their downstate burst even with pet isnt that broken. Its fine tho I'm sure itl get nerfed with rest of downstates :) but yup moving on.

diut, ranger pet can legit hit bigger numbers with autoattacks

And that makes it ok? I've never had a ranger pet even pre patch burst me instantly for 7k, if they did I'd be saying the same as it ridiculous. No class should be bursting another for 7k while being in downstate, that's crazy broken no matter what class is doing it.

its like complaining about handgun while everyone is running aroud with rifles.and your argument is that guns are bad, read what the skill does look how it works. after quick google and a little bit of brain power you will realize how to counter it.there is no hope for mesmer, if people start complaining even about kitten downstate phantasm lol

Umm I disagree. I'm talking about bursts while being in downstate and that alone. Don't start mentioning what everything every class can do that's op to compare lol I'm just mention something that's overperforming and not listing off everything that is so.Like I said regardless of class no class or spec should be in downstate and be able to insta burst another to downstate when their at half hp regardless of any situation. Again with damage nerfs but zero downstate nerfing it is broken.

learn to play.first thing you should do after you got hit for 7k with the ability should be googling what it does.
I googled it for you since you seem to be too lazy.3 things for you my man since you are the whiny type not the thinking type.1 it deals more dmg towards the back, if you cant dodge stare towards it to take 20% less damage and have it go on longer cooldown.2 half a sec cast time + phantasm delay means you have 1s of a tell, easy to dodge.3 it can not be used instantly, its on cooldown from the start like other classes skills, meaning you have time to LoS,get endurance for a dodge or simply wait on an elevation and drop down when you see the phantasm.

I was standing there shooting it with sb and all the sudden clones rushed and exploded me for 7k, I didnt do anything grand defensively because I knew I was still half hp, it insta burst me to downstate. I assumed half my hp was enough to keep pinging the downed mesmer. I'm not arguing with u anymore because u always turn toxic and ignorant and are so bias towards mesmer u will never admit something on it is broken. Are u a child? Regardless of class no class should be able to burst another for anything close to 7k while their in downstate, can u not read? Thats broken no matter who is doing it. Anyway u can reply ur usual nonsense all u want I will not be wasting time replying

So you stood still, and let clone kitten you over. and isntead blaming yourself for doing something stupid you go onto the forums to complain.clap clap clap clap clap

Replace "clone" with "pet" and you just described yourself.

pet doesnt vanish after it misses :D

Do u guys know how to play mirage? I'm just asking cuz I literally played two games in a row where a gs mirage was insta burting my 16k+ hp in literally a sec and all while from stealth. Not only does mesmer not need any buffs it actually needs its bursts severely lowered. U guys whining that it has no damage leads me to believe u dont know ur class because both these mesmers were doing easy 14k bursts from stealth and ur whining about pets or rangers 5k+ bursts in other threads lmao u guys are ridiculous and have zero right asking for nerfs on any classes when urs needs heavier nerfs :)

I don't play GS-burst or anything with more stealth than Torch 4, so I promise it wasn't me. ^^

Isn't that build a glass cannon that dies as easily as it kills, especially after baiting its only dodge? The core mes version is probably better.

You can definitely hit high numbers on backstab as high as a mesmer burst if not more, without the effort, you just have to do what you do on mesmer, choose all damage traits.

You cant. Not even
close
. Backstabs damage scaling is 1.8 now. Mind Wrack alone hits for 2.0. And then you also have mirror blade hitting for a total of 1.57 and power spike hitting for 0.45. For a total damage scaling of more than twice that of backstab, with the same amount of reaction time the enemy has to work with (i.e. none at all). While there is something to be said for the Mesmer version taking a bit more effort, it is also just
far
more powerful. Thieves burst cant even oneshot squishies. Mesmerscan oneshot actually fairly tanky builds.

As for the rest of the conversation on this thread thieves complaining about mesmers make my heart warm. Any thief that dies against a mesmer should have their game autouninstalled. Mesmer is a free meal for thieves.

Condi
Mesmer is. Consume Plasma gives Resistance, and Resistance screws condi Mesmer over pretty badly. Power Mesmer on the other hand? Yeah thats not actually a good matchup for thief. Thief cant oneshot them, and they can actually fight back while dazed, all while having several times the damage the thief has and stronger CC lockdown.

It was photoshopped right?Now you can put your guitar back on the bag.

Why is it every time people talk about backstab people keep trying to pull the "fully malice stacked malicious backstab" move and expect it to work? Yes, a fully stacked malicious backstab can hit very hard. Photonic Blasting Module can hit
even harder
. Do you know what they share in common? You cant really hit them on enemies who arent AFK or lagging hard. Though, looking at that black powder damage, I also have the sneaking suspicion that you mightve taken off some of your gear to push the damage up. Because for Black Powder to do 1.5k, that requires a level of glass that even a zerkers Ele doesnt have.

It's instant.And the shadowshot ones are with 0 malice.

-> 0.5 cast time
-> 0.75 cast time."Instant". I dont think you know what instant means. And Im pretty sure you needed a third attack too. All while the opponent did absolutely nothing against it. Yeah, so much for that.

The Shadowshot ones are also pretty clearly with you taking off your gear to push your defense stat lower to artificially up the damage. I dont have the time to do the
exact
math right now, but looking at the last time I did one of these calculations, this is about twice as much as is possible with the glassiest, highest damage build around. In other words, about what you would expect if a player were to take off their gear and lose all of the defense rating, lowering their armour in half and doubling the damage.

Mirror blade 0,75 cast timeMind stab 0,25 cast timeNo instant huehuehue.

Mirror-blade is pre-cast within stealth (Which you cant do with Black Powder or Heartseeker as they are
the way you enter stealth in the first place
. Mind Stab is not neccessary for the combo. Bad excuse.

BS, I was with all gear. It seems you're clueless regarding your own profession.It's easy go into arena, take all damage kitten you can get and test it.

Oh please, thats a bad lie and you should know better than to stick with it. But dont worry, once Im back and have some time, Ill do the exact damage calculation and show that you in fact are lying.

Crit 3 2 1Trickery 3 1 2DE 1 1 2

Go test it, then come here to apologize.

Edit: since you asked so nicely
this is without armor:

Lets do the math then. Im assuming its PvP, so that makes my job easier. Mesmers armor rating is 1888. Thieves power with activated Assassins Signet and quickness is 3115. Its a dual weild, so it uses the daggers weapon strength. 922.5. Scaling is 1.3125. So, the base damage is 3115*922.5*1.3125/1888=1997. Now, we just multiply it with every damage modifier we have. First, crit. 255.1% crit damage with Fury. So, we multiply it with 2.551. And just to start skipping ahead, 1.1 iron sight, 1.1 ferocious strikes, 1.07 twin fangs, 1.05 lead attacks, 1.12 scholars and weapon sigils(they stack additively). So, thats 1997*2.551*1.1*1.1*1.07*1.05*1.12=7.7k. Hm, higher than I expected, still significantly lower than your 9k. And thats the highest damage you can do, and were not even going to address the fact that this hypotethical build is completely unplayable.

Yes the SS were fabricated.......Go test it in game, already gave you the build.

Guess what else is unplayable? Power mesmer/mirage/chrono.

I dont know what setup you used to pump up the damage numbers. But math (which is infallible) has shown the damage you have shown to be, simply put, impossible without fabrication. But just to humour you, I did test it. You get one guess what happened. If you guessed "the damage lined up
perfectly
with the math and was significantly lower than your fabricated damage", then congratulations. You are correct. Seriously though, you Mesmer mains take this roleplaying thing a bit too serious, just because your class is all about deception, doesnt mean you should be.

Oh yeah, I forgot, we talked about the difference in burst between Mesmer and Thief. Ill quickly calculate Mesmers burst then. Im gonna actually use the metabattle build though instead of an artificial one that tries to up the damage as much as possible. Thieves armour rating is 2029. Now here is where it gets tricks, since Mesmer is multiple hits at the same time, the damage gets messy. Specifically, vulnerability from Mirror Blade and Power Spike, and Power from Mirror Blades might. Way Im going to handle it is that I simply apply it to the next one, so mirror blade wont benefit from its own vulnerability or might. Less damage than the actual burst, but easier to calculate. So, Mesmers power is 2375. With Mirror Blades might, its 2645. Power Spike applies 12 vulnerability, Mirror Blade applies 12. The scalings Ive mentioned above, but its 0.45 for Power Spike, Mirror blade 1.57. Mind Wrack 2.0. Greatswords weapon strength is 1015. Time to do math.

So, were gonna calculate the 3 base damages first, then the multipliers. Power spike is (0.45*2375*1015)/2029=534. Mirror Blade is (1.57*2375*1015)/2029=1865. Mind Wrack is (2.0*2645*1015)/2029=2646. Now, multipliers. Power Spike gets affected by Scholar, the weapon sigils, and of course Superiority Complex boosted crit. So, 1.12 and 2.4. Thats 534*1.12*2.4=1435. Now, Mirror Blade. Here it gets more interesting. Since Power Spike did damage, egotism kicks in. Additionally, Power Spike applied 12 vulnerability, futher increasing damage by 18% thanks to Fragility. So its 1865*1.12*2.4*1.05*1.18=6211 damage. Now, at this point against a thief, Superiority Complex's second part would also kick in. But Im going to ignore it. Just because its too close (And unneccessary). However, now the target has 24 vulnerability. Which means 1.36 increase. Additionally, shatters benefit from Shattered Anguish, which adds another 1.2. So, thats 2646*1.12*2.4*1.05*1.36*1.2= 12188 damage. Total damage: 1435+6211+12188=19834 damage. Remember, even your max malice malicious backstab didnt do this much damage. And Mesmers actual damage is
higher
since I didnt include Superiority Complex's second part, or the might and vulnerability on each hit of Mirror Blade.

So yeah, Mesmers burst is way higher. And this is just the version that cant be reacted to. If you want more damage you can then follow up with Mind Stab and Phantasmal Berserker. But theyre totally superfluous.

did you just assume that under 50% crit chance build crit 100% of the time? o.O

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Kuma.1503

Kuma.1503

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At least mesmer gets meme'd about, and gets attention from devs and players alike.

Imagine playing engi and realizing that 2/3 of your specs are, at best mediocre, and at worst garbo, in most game modes.Core engi even got dropped from the snowcrows builds beccause, even with the amount of effort required to play it well, it's worse than other options AND brings less utility to the table. It's allowed to remain bad because no one really cares about engi save for a few enthusiastic players.

At least chrono is still valued in PvE for their massive dps (40k benchmark) and utility (Portals, Boon extension, Aegis, Quickness/Alacrity ect.) Mirage, meanwhile is very much a meta condi dps. Mesmer isn't even that bad in PvP to boot. Chrono is certainly clunky and unfun, but it works, and Mirage is still able to play evasively thanks to distortion and perma vigor. Not saying mesmer is in the best spot, but as an engi, I'd gladly trade places.

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Tayga.3192

Tayga.3192

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@UNOwen.7132 said:Slight damage variation in the game, but as I said. Lines up perfectly.

I don't care about 99% of what you write but after the patch there isn't a damage variation, check your calculations again.Even if it's only 100ish damage off, something like that can make quite a big difference considering we are working with multiplication.

Or maybe you have noise in your numbers which is a big problem.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:did you just assume that under 50% crit chance build crit 100% of the time? o.O

First of all, you forgot Fury. Second of all, you also always assume that the backstab of thief crits, so Im not sure why youre in shock that I would make the same assumption. Oh and spoiler: If we take away the "it always crits assumption", thief is even worse off. Their crit multiplier is higher, so their overall damage becomes lower.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Slight damage variation in the game, but as I said. Lines up
perfectly
.

I don't care about 99% of what you write but after the patch there isn't a damage variation, check your calculations again.Even if it's only 100ish damage off, something like that can make quite a big difference considering we are working with multiplication.

Or maybe you have noise in your numbers which is a big problem.

There is still damage variation, they didnt remove it. I mean, hell, you can hover over your weapon and still see that its weapon strength isnt one value, but a range of values. Thats why when you hit with the same skill twice, it wont do twice the same damage.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:did you just assume that under 50% crit chance build crit 100% of the time? o.O

First of all, you forgot Fury. Second of all, you also always assume that the backstab of thief crits, so Im not sure why youre in shock that I would make the same assumption. Oh and spoiler: If we take away the "it always crits assumption", thief is
even worse off
. Their crit multiplier is higher, so their overall damage becomes lower.

mesmers crit modifier is insane due to overstacking ferocity ( scholars + berserker ) and sup complex ( 25% damage bonus ON CRITS ONLY )first hits that DONT proc fury, have UNDER 50% crit chance. 48 or 49 if I remember correctly.after fury they have under 70% still. If you get unlucky first hits and dont drop the enemy under 75% you WILL F1 without fury making you still miss even more damage.this is why you F1 for 10k dmg with crits and for 3k without crits, becouse mesmers crit modif is actually about 3.0.as for thief, depending on the build they run with maruders ( more crit chance + fury from the start ) so its insta 70% OR they run crits strikers so they have always 100%.Im not expert on thief but getting crit from backstab is about 70-100%.for your 20k dmg to thief is almost perfect scenarion. all crits would nuke for about 23k. Realistic damage is way lower, and for every ultra lucky burst you will get ultra unlucky one that doesnt even do 12k.

PS gs2 is broken and deals less dmg then intended.

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Tayga.3192

Tayga.3192

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@UNOwen.7132 said:There is still damage variation, they didnt remove it. I mean, hell, you can hover over your weapon and still see that its weapon strength isnt one value, but a range of values. Thats why when you hit with the same skill twice, it wont do twice the same damage.

Check the patch notes:

In PvP only, weapon strength will now always use the midpoint instead of randomly rolling across the range.

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