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Please hotfix/disable Obsidian Flesh

Unholey.3264

By Unholey.3264
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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why was it changed at all? Because the stomps and rezzes were OP? Meanwhile core necros play unkillable rezz bots in pairs?

Yes, fix it fast! Or revert the whole horrible change! Not being able to cast is fine and fair, but why not for stomps and rezzes?

I mean free uninterruptible stomps/resses are pretty kitten powerful, but Engineer also can do it with Elixir S, soooo. My guess is more that it was a change done to prevent you from being able to cast it while stunned.

A 1/4s cast time I believe would accomplish this task.

Yes because turning an oh kitten button into something unusable when kitten jumps at you makes so much sense... The whole Obsidian change is completely nonsense right from start, there was no reason to change that skill, it was totally balanced compared to other invuln skills having additional effects/rewards to the invuln and less restrictions in accessibility. Also as now proven ingame it didn't even help a tiny bit to make sustain Ele builds less tanky or remarkable less impactful in dmg while being tanky.

I dont know what other invulnerability skills youre referring too, because all other invulnerability skills already locked you out of all skills. The only one that didnt is Mesmers Distortion, and even that one requires clones to have a long duration.

@Megametzler.5729 said:Not being able to cast is fine and fair

No it is not fair when looking at other invuln skills (just see above) and when considering why the skill was originally created like that on Ele. It might be endurable on braindead facetank meta bunker builds but for more skilled and squishy builds this is a horrible nonsense change. If you want to give bunker Eles more counter and less noobfriendly facetank sustain then there are a lot of other and better ways to do that without killing one of the very few ACTIVE defense tools more squishy and more skilled Ele builds have which depend on being able to attack while invuln. No clue what makes the current balance team think they know everything better than the origin balance team from core release days, when already their inconsistent trade off mess is showing that they have at max half the competence.

It is fair when looking at other invuln skills. They all lock you out of your skills. Either through channel time or literally locking them. And they also take up a utility slot, which is generally more valuable and more powerful as a result.

No, as said other invuln skills have additional rewards like a stunbreak or cd refreshment (f-skills on guard) or another very impactful skill (toolbelt skill with aoe stealth to cover resustain heal from almost downstate up to 100% hp). So Obsidian was differently designed because it is different. And it is wrong to treat different things on different classes the same. Looking at rewards and cds and the class environment the design without skill lock out on Ele (just as on Mesmer) was justified, balanced and made sense since game release. And if you don't get these simple facts again, then don't be surprise i will not answer you again. Experience shows, that discussing with you is most likely a waste of time.

Well, first of all that isnt true for all of them, second of all, as I said, those are utility skills. They require a greater investment than a weapon skill. Hell, Ele has another invulnerability skill, Fortify. It lasts 3 second, and is channeled while rooting yourself. So not just locked out, you cant even move. And no, not really. Obsidian Flesh has always been an absurd skill. However, it used to have a critical weakness. It required you to swap to earth, and lose access to your previous attunement for quite some time. And the earth attunement was pretty bad for the most part. But both of those are no longer true, thanks to Weaver. Earth attunement is actually quite powerful, thanks to sword, while the recharge time is drastically lower. It was always borderline broken. Now with Weaver, there aint even a borderline.

These simple "facts" that arent facts. Man you really have an ego the size of the bleeding moon. Without anything to back it up. Tone it down a bit, your Superiority Complex is getting to the point of Self-Deception.

This just shows how utterly clueless you are to how elementalist works. Obsidian Flesh is CONSIDERABLY easier to access on core / tempest, and way more readily available in clutch situations. You need to plan out when you need it as a weaver, up to 7 seconds in advance if you have yet to attune to earth in your rotation.

This used to be a major complaint about weaver on release. Clutch abilities now had to be planned in advance, and in some cases (Burning retreat for fire 3 staff) they were extremely hard to access because of the dual attunement. So no, you're wrong, being a weaver is not an advantage when using obsi flesh and no, no one in the history of gw2 has ever complained about it.

Its easier to access, but it comes with more of a cost. And while its harder to access in a clutch situation, earth happens to be the attunement you want to go into much more often than in the past. Arguably its the second-most important one after fire now, and a big reason of why the builds work in the first place. Given that the nerf to Obsidian Flesh was to remove its proactive ability, while retaining its clutch ability, Im going to go out on a limb and say that they saw the offensive capabilities of Obsidian Flesh as the issue. Makes sense, the fire weaver being able to fight completely unrestrained for 3 seconds is quite dangerous.

Dont know where you looked, but plenty of people complained about Obsidian Flesh. As I said, lets the Ele fight for 3 seconds without having to care about
anything
the opponent can do. On a build that can burst you down with burning quite hard now. It was a problem, thats why it locked you out of your skills.

The Weaver burn build is a problem but it is not because of Obsidian. These nonsense changes nerfing around root problems triggers me so hard. Just like on Ranger, the Marksmanship dmg mulitplier stackable as they are and high as they are, are clearly a problem. Ofc some Soulbeats specfic stuff like Sic EM for the player when merged needed to be looked at too, but Anet avoided to nerf some root problems with not touching core traits which even are op on core builds. While Obsidian is no issue what makes any Weaver build op. When the problem is in core you nerf/ rework core, when it is in elites you nerf/ rework elites. It is rly that simple. When the problem is in a too strong synergy between some core and elite traits then you might have a bigger problem to decide and should in tendency/ preferable kill the lower skill cieling aspect to weaken the synergy and again no matter if the lower skill ceiling part is in core or elite (because the low skill ceiling will most likely apply to core too aynway) ofc only as long as neither the elite or core would suffer too much from it. In that case you have to look for the nerf with overall the least costs in clunkyness, skill ceiling and build diversity. While Anet has the weird habit to chose the worst and most unnecessary changes with the highest cost in those aspects ever.

They explained why they didnt want to nerf Marksmanship. And their logic was sound, dont nerf builds that arent broken, just to hit the one that is.

Whatever all other invuln skills (except for the Mesmer) have more rewards in addition to the pure invuln, very high other rewards. That is one reason they were designed with skill look out as additional trade off since game release. Also you have to look at how those classes function overall. Ele (aside from the braindead bunker builds) just as Mesmer are originally build around combining instant skills with not instant skills and being that squishy that they need to be able to attack or resustain while invuln here and there to even have a change to kill something before getting killed. It makes Ele also unnecessary clunky on those builds because the change contradicts the Ele mechanic on a lot of builds (just those builds are not meta, so no one cares it seems, even though nerfing meta down to the lvl to the more skilled builds would make way more sense instead killing more skilled builds just to nerf op meta builds at the wrong places). The only thing invuln skills have in common is that they apply invulnerability, aside from that all you can see when looking at them is, that they are totally different on also totally different classes with different strengths and different mechanics what are the reasons they were designed that different in the first place. Never treat different things the same. And just because all thumbs are fingers doesn't mean all fingers are thumbs. Obsidian don't need a skill look out. If there are bunker builds on Ele specs too op in sustain, then there are more than enough other ways to reduce their facetank sustain without killing one of the very few active defensive skills more skilled and squishy Ele playstyles have. Obsidian and Ele is more near to the Mesmer than to Engi or Guard, that is why Ele and Mesmer have those invuln skills. Simple!

"Very high other rewards". Vapor Form gives movement speed. Renewed Focus only recharges your virtues. Theyre not very high rewards at all. And no, thats not why they were designed with skill lock out. They were designed with skill lock out, because being able to fight the enemy while being completely impervious without any downside is a pretty big problem. Invulnerability should exclusively be defensive. Granted, Mesmer can still do it without lockout, but in Mesmer case it has other costs.

On what slot they are doesn't rly matter that much either. You have opportunity costs on all slots in terms of you cannot choose something else there. And on Ele you even need to dedicate 2*4 skills to have that one defensive skill not only one utility or one elite. Means on what slot that invuln skill is, is already balanced out by different opportunity costs each slot has. How good or bad other earth skills are on different specs doesn't matter. If some earth skills on Weaver overperform than nerf them (they are the root problem then).

It absolutely matters. Utility skills present a huge opportunity cost. You can only have 3 of them, and they tend to be much more powerful. As such, a utility skill has much more of a downside in being picked than a weapon skill would in general. But in the case of ele, the opportunity cost gets even lower. Because you dont have to give up one of 2 or 3 weapon skill slots just for Obsidian flesh, but only one of 8. And make no mistake, you would pick Focus even without Obsidian Flesh. Its just overall an amazing weapon. So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even CC them.

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Megametzler.5729

Megametzler.5729

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@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even CC them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why was it changed at all? Because the stomps and rezzes were OP? Meanwhile core necros play unkillable rezz bots in pairs?

Yes, fix it fast! Or revert the whole horrible change! Not being able to cast is fine and fair, but why not for stomps and rezzes?

I mean free uninterruptible stomps/resses are pretty kitten powerful, but Engineer also can do it with Elixir S, soooo. My guess is more that it was a change done to prevent you from being able to cast it while stunned.

A 1/4s cast time I believe would accomplish this task.

Yes because turning an oh kitten button into something unusable when kitten jumps at you makes so much sense... The whole Obsidian change is completely nonsense right from start, there was no reason to change that skill, it was totally balanced compared to other invuln skills having additional effects/rewards to the invuln and less restrictions in accessibility. Also as now proven ingame it didn't even help a tiny bit to make sustain Ele builds less tanky or remarkable less impactful in dmg while being tanky.

I dont know what other invulnerability skills youre referring too, because all other invulnerability skills already locked you out of all skills. The only one that didnt is Mesmers Distortion, and even that one requires clones to have a long duration.

@Megametzler.5729 said:Not being able to cast is fine and fair

No it is not fair when looking at other invuln skills (just see above) and when considering why the skill was originally created like that on Ele. It might be endurable on braindead facetank meta bunker builds but for more skilled and squishy builds this is a horrible nonsense change. If you want to give bunker Eles more counter and less noobfriendly facetank sustain then there are a lot of other and better ways to do that without killing one of the very few ACTIVE defense tools more squishy and more skilled Ele builds have which depend on being able to attack while invuln. No clue what makes the current balance team think they know everything better than the origin balance team from core release days, when already their inconsistent trade off mess is showing that they have at max half the competence.

It is fair when looking at other invuln skills. They all lock you out of your skills. Either through channel time or literally locking them. And they also take up a utility slot, which is generally more valuable and more powerful as a result.

No, as said other invuln skills have additional rewards like a stunbreak or cd refreshment (f-skills on guard) or another very impactful skill (toolbelt skill with aoe stealth to cover resustain heal from almost downstate up to 100% hp). So Obsidian was differently designed because it is different. And it is wrong to treat different things on different classes the same. Looking at rewards and cds and the class environment the design without skill lock out on Ele (just as on Mesmer) was justified, balanced and made sense since game release. And if you don't get these simple facts again, then don't be surprise i will not answer you again. Experience shows, that discussing with you is most likely a waste of time.

Well, first of all that isnt true for all of them, second of all, as I said, those are utility skills. They require a greater investment than a weapon skill. Hell, Ele has another invulnerability skill, Fortify. It lasts 3 second, and is channeled while rooting yourself. So not just locked out, you cant even move. And no, not really. Obsidian Flesh has always been an absurd skill. However, it used to have a critical weakness. It required you to swap to earth, and lose access to your previous attunement for quite some time. And the earth attunement was pretty bad for the most part. But both of those are no longer true, thanks to Weaver. Earth attunement is actually quite powerful, thanks to sword, while the recharge time is drastically lower. It was always borderline broken. Now with Weaver, there aint even a borderline.

These simple "facts" that arent facts. Man you really have an ego the size of the bleeding moon. Without anything to back it up. Tone it down a bit, your Superiority Complex is getting to the point of Self-Deception.

This just shows how utterly clueless you are to how elementalist works. Obsidian Flesh is CONSIDERABLY easier to access on core / tempest, and way more readily available in clutch situations. You need to plan out when you need it as a weaver, up to 7 seconds in advance if you have yet to attune to earth in your rotation.

This used to be a major complaint about weaver on release. Clutch abilities now had to be planned in advance, and in some cases (Burning retreat for fire 3 staff) they were extremely hard to access because of the dual attunement. So no, you're wrong, being a weaver is not an advantage when using obsi flesh and no, no one in the history of gw2 has ever complained about it.

Its easier to access, but it comes with more of a cost. And while its harder to access in a clutch situation, earth happens to be the attunement you want to go into much more often than in the past. Arguably its the second-most important one after fire now, and a big reason of why the builds work in the first place. Given that the nerf to Obsidian Flesh was to remove its proactive ability, while retaining its clutch ability, Im going to go out on a limb and say that they saw the offensive capabilities of Obsidian Flesh as the issue. Makes sense, the fire weaver being able to fight completely unrestrained for 3 seconds is quite dangerous.

Dont know where you looked, but plenty of people complained about Obsidian Flesh. As I said, lets the Ele fight for 3 seconds without having to care about
anything
the opponent can do. On a build that can burst you down with burning quite hard now. It was a problem, thats why it locked you out of your skills.

The Weaver burn build is a problem but it is not because of Obsidian. These nonsense changes nerfing around root problems triggers me so hard. Just like on Ranger, the Marksmanship dmg mulitplier stackable as they are and high as they are, are clearly a problem. Ofc some Soulbeats specfic stuff like Sic EM for the player when merged needed to be looked at too, but Anet avoided to nerf some root problems with not touching core traits which even are op on core builds. While Obsidian is no issue what makes any Weaver build op. When the problem is in core you nerf/ rework core, when it is in elites you nerf/ rework elites. It is rly that simple. When the problem is in a too strong synergy between some core and elite traits then you might have a bigger problem to decide and should in tendency/ preferable kill the lower skill cieling aspect to weaken the synergy and again no matter if the lower skill ceiling part is in core or elite (because the low skill ceiling will most likely apply to core too aynway) ofc only as long as neither the elite or core would suffer too much from it. In that case you have to look for the nerf with overall the least costs in clunkyness, skill ceiling and build diversity. While Anet has the weird habit to chose the worst and most unnecessary changes with the highest cost in those aspects ever.

They explained why they didnt want to nerf Marksmanship. And their logic was sound, dont nerf builds that arent broken, just to hit the one that is.

Whatever all other invuln skills (except for the Mesmer) have more rewards in addition to the pure invuln, very high other rewards. That is one reason they were designed with skill look out as additional trade off since game release. Also you have to look at how those classes function overall. Ele (aside from the braindead bunker builds) just as Mesmer are originally build around combining instant skills with not instant skills and being that squishy that they need to be able to attack or resustain while invuln here and there to even have a change to kill something before getting killed. It makes Ele also unnecessary clunky on those builds because the change contradicts the Ele mechanic on a lot of builds (just those builds are not meta, so no one cares it seems, even though nerfing meta down to the lvl to the more skilled builds would make way more sense instead killing more skilled builds just to nerf op meta builds at the wrong places). The only thing invuln skills have in common is that they apply invulnerability, aside from that all you can see when looking at them is, that they are totally different on also totally different classes with different strengths and different mechanics what are the reasons they were designed that different in the first place. Never treat different things the same. And just because all thumbs are fingers doesn't mean all fingers are thumbs. Obsidian don't need a skill look out. If there are bunker builds on Ele specs too op in sustain, then there are more than enough other ways to reduce their facetank sustain without killing one of the very few active defensive skills more skilled and squishy Ele playstyles have. Obsidian and Ele is more near to the Mesmer than to Engi or Guard, that is why Ele and Mesmer have those invuln skills. Simple!

"Very high other rewards". Vapor Form gives movement speed. Renewed Focus only recharges your virtues. Theyre not very high rewards at all. And no, thats not why they were designed with skill lock out. They were designed with skill lock out, because being able to fight the enemy while being completely impervious without any downside is a pretty big problem. Invulnerability should exclusively be defensive. Granted, Mesmer can still do it without lockout, but in Mesmer case it has other costs.

On what slot they are doesn't rly matter that much either. You have opportunity costs on all slots in terms of you cannot choose something else there. And on Ele you even need to dedicate 2*4 skills to have that one defensive skill not only one utility or one elite. Means on what slot that invuln skill is, is already balanced out by different opportunity costs each slot has. How good or bad other earth skills are on different specs doesn't matter. If some earth skills on Weaver overperform than nerf them (they are the root problem then).

It
absolutely
matters. Utility skills present a huge opportunity cost. You can only have 3 of them, and they tend to be much more powerful. As such, a utility skill has much more of a downside in being picked than a weapon skill would in general. But in the case of ele, the opportunity cost gets
even lower
. Because you dont have to give up one of 2 or 3 weapon skill slots just for Obsidian flesh, but only one of
8
. And make no mistake, you would pick Focus even without Obsidian Flesh. Its just overall an amazing weapon. So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Core builds are broken too exactly because of Marksmanship multiplier xD, means no, that didn't sound reasonable and logical from Anet at all. But whatever, think what you want to think, I will not even reply to the other stuff you said, because no matter what i come up with you will never change your mind anyway."not a strong additional reward to only refresh the whole class mechanic" ONLY ONLY... that alone made my day xDDD

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why was it changed at all? Because the stomps and rezzes were OP? Meanwhile core necros play unkillable rezz bots in pairs?

Yes, fix it fast! Or revert the whole horrible change! Not being able to cast is fine and fair, but why not for stomps and rezzes?

I mean free uninterruptible stomps/resses are pretty kitten powerful, but Engineer also can do it with Elixir S, soooo. My guess is more that it was a change done to prevent you from being able to cast it while stunned.

A 1/4s cast time I believe would accomplish this task.

Yes because turning an oh kitten button into something unusable when kitten jumps at you makes so much sense... The whole Obsidian change is completely nonsense right from start, there was no reason to change that skill, it was totally balanced compared to other invuln skills having additional effects/rewards to the invuln and less restrictions in accessibility. Also as now proven ingame it didn't even help a tiny bit to make sustain Ele builds less tanky or remarkable less impactful in dmg while being tanky.

I dont know what other invulnerability skills youre referring too, because all other invulnerability skills already locked you out of all skills. The only one that didnt is Mesmers Distortion, and even that one requires clones to have a long duration.

@Megametzler.5729 said:Not being able to cast is fine and fair

No it is not fair when looking at other invuln skills (just see above) and when considering why the skill was originally created like that on Ele. It might be endurable on braindead facetank meta bunker builds but for more skilled and squishy builds this is a horrible nonsense change. If you want to give bunker Eles more counter and less noobfriendly facetank sustain then there are a lot of other and better ways to do that without killing one of the very few ACTIVE defense tools more squishy and more skilled Ele builds have which depend on being able to attack while invuln. No clue what makes the current balance team think they know everything better than the origin balance team from core release days, when already their inconsistent trade off mess is showing that they have at max half the competence.

It is fair when looking at other invuln skills. They all lock you out of your skills. Either through channel time or literally locking them. And they also take up a utility slot, which is generally more valuable and more powerful as a result.

No, as said other invuln skills have additional rewards like a stunbreak or cd refreshment (f-skills on guard) or another very impactful skill (toolbelt skill with aoe stealth to cover resustain heal from almost downstate up to 100% hp). So Obsidian was differently designed because it is different. And it is wrong to treat different things on different classes the same. Looking at rewards and cds and the class environment the design without skill lock out on Ele (just as on Mesmer) was justified, balanced and made sense since game release. And if you don't get these simple facts again, then don't be surprise i will not answer you again. Experience shows, that discussing with you is most likely a waste of time.

Well, first of all that isnt true for all of them, second of all, as I said, those are utility skills. They require a greater investment than a weapon skill. Hell, Ele has another invulnerability skill, Fortify. It lasts 3 second, and is channeled while rooting yourself. So not just locked out, you cant even move. And no, not really. Obsidian Flesh has always been an absurd skill. However, it used to have a critical weakness. It required you to swap to earth, and lose access to your previous attunement for quite some time. And the earth attunement was pretty bad for the most part. But both of those are no longer true, thanks to Weaver. Earth attunement is actually quite powerful, thanks to sword, while the recharge time is drastically lower. It was always borderline broken. Now with Weaver, there aint even a borderline.

These simple "facts" that arent facts. Man you really have an ego the size of the bleeding moon. Without anything to back it up. Tone it down a bit, your Superiority Complex is getting to the point of Self-Deception.

This just shows how utterly clueless you are to how elementalist works. Obsidian Flesh is CONSIDERABLY easier to access on core / tempest, and way more readily available in clutch situations. You need to plan out when you need it as a weaver, up to 7 seconds in advance if you have yet to attune to earth in your rotation.

This used to be a major complaint about weaver on release. Clutch abilities now had to be planned in advance, and in some cases (Burning retreat for fire 3 staff) they were extremely hard to access because of the dual attunement. So no, you're wrong, being a weaver is not an advantage when using obsi flesh and no, no one in the history of gw2 has ever complained about it.

Its easier to access, but it comes with more of a cost. And while its harder to access in a clutch situation, earth happens to be the attunement you want to go into much more often than in the past. Arguably its the second-most important one after fire now, and a big reason of why the builds work in the first place. Given that the nerf to Obsidian Flesh was to remove its proactive ability, while retaining its clutch ability, Im going to go out on a limb and say that they saw the offensive capabilities of Obsidian Flesh as the issue. Makes sense, the fire weaver being able to fight completely unrestrained for 3 seconds is quite dangerous.

Dont know where you looked, but plenty of people complained about Obsidian Flesh. As I said, lets the Ele fight for 3 seconds without having to care about
anything
the opponent can do. On a build that can burst you down with burning quite hard now. It was a problem, thats why it locked you out of your skills.

The Weaver burn build is a problem but it is not because of Obsidian. These nonsense changes nerfing around root problems triggers me so hard. Just like on Ranger, the Marksmanship dmg mulitplier stackable as they are and high as they are, are clearly a problem. Ofc some Soulbeats specfic stuff like Sic EM for the player when merged needed to be looked at too, but Anet avoided to nerf some root problems with not touching core traits which even are op on core builds. While Obsidian is no issue what makes any Weaver build op. When the problem is in core you nerf/ rework core, when it is in elites you nerf/ rework elites. It is rly that simple. When the problem is in a too strong synergy between some core and elite traits then you might have a bigger problem to decide and should in tendency/ preferable kill the lower skill cieling aspect to weaken the synergy and again no matter if the lower skill ceiling part is in core or elite (because the low skill ceiling will most likely apply to core too aynway) ofc only as long as neither the elite or core would suffer too much from it. In that case you have to look for the nerf with overall the least costs in clunkyness, skill ceiling and build diversity. While Anet has the weird habit to chose the worst and most unnecessary changes with the highest cost in those aspects ever.

They explained why they didnt want to nerf Marksmanship. And their logic was sound, dont nerf builds that arent broken, just to hit the one that is.

Whatever all other invuln skills (except for the Mesmer) have more rewards in addition to the pure invuln, very high other rewards. That is one reason they were designed with skill look out as additional trade off since game release. Also you have to look at how those classes function overall. Ele (aside from the braindead bunker builds) just as Mesmer are originally build around combining instant skills with not instant skills and being that squishy that they need to be able to attack or resustain while invuln here and there to even have a change to kill something before getting killed. It makes Ele also unnecessary clunky on those builds because the change contradicts the Ele mechanic on a lot of builds (just those builds are not meta, so no one cares it seems, even though nerfing meta down to the lvl to the more skilled builds would make way more sense instead killing more skilled builds just to nerf op meta builds at the wrong places). The only thing invuln skills have in common is that they apply invulnerability, aside from that all you can see when looking at them is, that they are totally different on also totally different classes with different strengths and different mechanics what are the reasons they were designed that different in the first place. Never treat different things the same. And just because all thumbs are fingers doesn't mean all fingers are thumbs. Obsidian don't need a skill look out. If there are bunker builds on Ele specs too op in sustain, then there are more than enough other ways to reduce their facetank sustain without killing one of the very few active defensive skills more skilled and squishy Ele playstyles have. Obsidian and Ele is more near to the Mesmer than to Engi or Guard, that is why Ele and Mesmer have those invuln skills. Simple!

"Very high other rewards". Vapor Form gives movement speed. Renewed Focus only recharges your virtues. Theyre not very high rewards at all. And no, thats not why they were designed with skill lock out. They were designed with skill lock out, because being able to fight the enemy while being completely impervious without any downside is a pretty big problem. Invulnerability should exclusively be defensive. Granted, Mesmer can still do it without lockout, but in Mesmer case it has other costs.

On what slot they are doesn't rly matter that much either. You have opportunity costs on all slots in terms of you cannot choose something else there. And on Ele you even need to dedicate 2*4 skills to have that one defensive skill not only one utility or one elite. Means on what slot that invuln skill is, is already balanced out by different opportunity costs each slot has. How good or bad other earth skills are on different specs doesn't matter. If some earth skills on Weaver overperform than nerf them (they are the root problem then).

It
absolutely
matters. Utility skills present a huge opportunity cost. You can only have 3 of them, and they tend to be much more powerful. As such, a utility skill has much more of a downside in being picked than a weapon skill would in general. But in the case of ele, the opportunity cost gets
even lower
. Because you dont have to give up one of 2 or 3 weapon skill slots just for Obsidian flesh, but only one of
8
. And make no mistake, you would pick Focus even without Obsidian Flesh. Its just overall an amazing weapon. So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Core builds are broken too exactly because of Marksmanship multiplier xD, means no, that didn't sound reasonable and logical from Anet at all. But whatever, think what you want to think, I will not even reply to the other stuff you said, because no matter what i come up with you will never change your mind anyway."not a strong additional reward to only refresh the whole class mechanic" ONLY ONLY... that alone made my day xDDD

Cant really say that they are. Granted, I dont even see that many of them nowadays, but they tend to perform, well, not exactly amazingly. Theyre not broken like Soulbeasts are. No need for collateral damage. "because no matter what i come up with you will never change your mind anyway. " actually, no. Its trivially easy. Just have a good argument. Oh but, I guess thats what you mean when you say "what I come up with". You cant seem to be able to make any good arguments. Mostly because you have nothing that supports your position. Typically because youre simply wrong, but I digress.

Not all class mechanics are equal. For core guardian, that is an incredibly minor effect. Plus, it is an elite skill, which is even more of an opportuntiy cost.

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Megametzler.5729

Megametzler.5729

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And then they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And
then
they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

I dont think you can stomp in Vaporform? I mean, Im not sure. I havent seen anyone use that skill in ages. Anyway, yeah the channeled thing is weird. Im not sure why they did that. The lockout however makes sense. Full invuln while being able to fight is just stupid.

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ZhouX.8742

ZhouX.8742

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@Megametzler.5729 said:Why was it changed at all? Because the stomps and rezzes were OP? Meanwhile core necros play unkillable rezz bots in pairs?

Yes, fix it fast! Or revert the whole horrible change! Not being able to cast is fine and fair, but why not for stomps and rezzes?

they made it to function like almost all invulns but the problem is they don't test anything when they release shit so you get exploit nightmares like this

imagine not doing testing on cancelling a skill to check for abnormal functionality

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Megametzler.5729

Megametzler.5729

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And
then
they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

I dont think you can stomp in Vaporform? I mean, Im not sure. I havent seen anyone use that skill in ages. Anyway, yeah the channeled thing is weird. Im not sure why they did that. The lockout however makes sense. Full invuln while being able to fight is just stupid.

You used to be able to do that, but I admit, I haven't used vapour form much in ages either.^^

Oh, and as somebody mentioned: Yes, attacking during invulnerability is awful. They should check distortion next to bring it in line! Balance is obviously not the point here.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And
then
they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

I dont think you can stomp in Vaporform? I mean, Im not sure. I havent seen anyone use that skill in ages. Anyway, yeah the channeled thing is weird. Im not sure why they did that. The lockout however makes sense. Full invuln while being able to fight is just stupid.

You used to be able to do that, but I admit, I haven't used vapour form much in ages either.^^

Oh, and as somebody mentioned: Yes, attacking during invulnerability is awful. They should check distortion next to bring it in line! Balance is obviously not the point here.

Well, lets ignore the Vapourform question for a bit, but as for Distortion, hey you wont find me shedding a tear if it gets the same treatment, buuut even then it at least requires clones to get a long duration. Still, removing it would be perfectly reasonable as far as Im concerned.

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Megametzler.5729

Megametzler.5729

Posted
Posted

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And
then
they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

I dont think you can stomp in Vaporform? I mean, Im not sure. I havent seen anyone use that skill in ages. Anyway, yeah the channeled thing is weird. Im not sure why they did that. The lockout however makes sense. Full invuln while being able to fight is just stupid.

You used to be able to do that, but I admit, I haven't used vapour form much in ages either.^^

Oh, and as somebody mentioned: Yes, attacking during invulnerability is awful. They should check distortion next to bring it in line! Balance is obviously not the point here.

Well, lets ignore the Vapourform question for a bit, but as for Distortion, hey you wont find me shedding a tear if it gets the same treatment, buuut even then it at least requires clones to get a long duration. Still, removing it would be perfectly reasonable as far as Im concerned.

I agree!

Back to topic: Thanks for fixing!

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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Posted

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And
then
they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

I dont think you can stomp in Vaporform? I mean, Im not sure. I havent seen anyone use that skill in ages. Anyway, yeah the channeled thing is weird. Im not sure why they did that. The lockout however makes sense. Full invuln while being able to fight is just stupid.

You used to be able to do that, but I admit, I haven't used vapour form much in ages either.^^

Oh, and as somebody mentioned: Yes, attacking during invulnerability is awful. They should check distortion next to bring it in line! Balance is obviously not the point here.

Well, lets ignore the Vapourform question for a bit, but as for Distortion, hey you wont find me shedding a tear if it gets the same treatment, buuut even then it at least requires clones to get a long duration. Still, removing it would be perfectly reasonable as far as Im concerned.

I agree!

Back to topic: Thanks for fixing!

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And
then
they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

I dont think you can stomp in Vaporform? I mean, Im not sure. I havent seen anyone use that skill in ages. Anyway, yeah the channeled thing is weird. Im not sure why they did that. The lockout however makes sense. Full invuln while being able to fight is just stupid.

You used to be able to do that, but I admit, I haven't used vapour form much in ages either.^^

Oh, and as somebody mentioned: Yes, attacking during invulnerability is awful. They should check distortion next to bring it in line! Balance is obviously not the point here.

Well, lets ignore the Vapourform question for a bit, but as for Distortion, hey you wont find me shedding a tear if it gets the same treatment, buuut even then it at least requires clones to get a long duration. Still, removing it would be perfectly reasonable as far as Im concerned.

I agree!

Back to topic: Thanks for fixing!

Im guessing it was fixed by just making the cancelled channel not refund cooldown?

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Megametzler.5729

Megametzler.5729

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Posted

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And
then
they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

I dont think you can stomp in Vaporform? I mean, Im not sure. I havent seen anyone use that skill in ages. Anyway, yeah the channeled thing is weird. Im not sure why they did that. The lockout however makes sense. Full invuln while being able to fight is just stupid.

You used to be able to do that, but I admit, I haven't used vapour form much in ages either.^^

Oh, and as somebody mentioned: Yes, attacking during invulnerability is awful. They should check distortion next to bring it in line! Balance is obviously not the point here.

Well, lets ignore the Vapourform question for a bit, but as for Distortion, hey you wont find me shedding a tear if it gets the same treatment, buuut even then it at least requires clones to get a long duration. Still, removing it would be perfectly reasonable as far as Im concerned.

I agree!

Back to topic: Thanks for fixing!

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And
then
they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

I dont think you can stomp in Vaporform? I mean, Im not sure. I havent seen anyone use that skill in ages. Anyway, yeah the channeled thing is weird. Im not sure why they did that. The lockout however makes sense. Full invuln while being able to fight is just stupid.

You used to be able to do that, but I admit, I haven't used vapour form much in ages either.^^

Oh, and as somebody mentioned: Yes, attacking during invulnerability is awful. They should check distortion next to bring it in line! Balance is obviously not the point here.

Well, lets ignore the Vapourform question for a bit, but as for Distortion, hey you wont find me shedding a tear if it gets the same treatment, buuut even then it at least requires clones to get a long duration. Still, removing it would be perfectly reasonable as far as Im concerned.

I agree!

Back to topic: Thanks for fixing!

Im guessing it was fixed by just making the cancelled channel not refund cooldown?

Can't test currently, but that's what the patch notes say, yepp.

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Axl.8924

Axl.8924

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why was it changed at all? Because the stomps and rezzes were OP? Meanwhile core necros play unkillable rezz bots in pairs?

Yes, fix it fast! Or revert the whole horrible change! Not being able to cast is fine and fair, but why not for stomps and rezzes?

I mean free uninterruptible stomps/resses are pretty kitten powerful, but Engineer also can do it with Elixir S, soooo. My guess is more that it was a change done to prevent you from being able to cast it while stunned.

A 1/4s cast time I believe would accomplish this task.

Yes because turning an oh kitten button into something unusable when kitten jumps at you makes so much sense... The whole Obsidian change is completely nonsense right from start, there was no reason to change that skill, it was totally balanced compared to other invuln skills having additional effects/rewards to the invuln and less restrictions in accessibility. Also as now proven ingame it didn't even help a tiny bit to make sustain Ele builds less tanky or remarkable less impactful in dmg while being tanky.

I dont know what other invulnerability skills youre referring too, because all other invulnerability skills already locked you out of all skills. The only one that didnt is Mesmers Distortion, and even that one requires clones to have a long duration.

@Megametzler.5729 said:Not being able to cast is fine and fair

No it is not fair when looking at other invuln skills (just see above) and when considering why the skill was originally created like that on Ele. It might be endurable on braindead facetank meta bunker builds but for more skilled and squishy builds this is a horrible nonsense change. If you want to give bunker Eles more counter and less noobfriendly facetank sustain then there are a lot of other and better ways to do that without killing one of the very few ACTIVE defense tools more squishy and more skilled Ele builds have which depend on being able to attack while invuln. No clue what makes the current balance team think they know everything better than the origin balance team from core release days, when already their inconsistent trade off mess is showing that they have at max half the competence.

It is fair when looking at other invuln skills. They all lock you out of your skills. Either through channel time or literally locking them. And they also take up a utility slot, which is generally more valuable and more powerful as a result.

No, as said other invuln skills have additional rewards like a stunbreak or cd refreshment (f-skills on guard) or another very impactful skill (toolbelt skill with aoe stealth to cover resustain heal from almost downstate up to 100% hp). So Obsidian was differently designed because it is different. And it is wrong to treat different things on different classes the same. Looking at rewards and cds and the class environment the design without skill lock out on Ele (just as on Mesmer) was justified, balanced and made sense since game release. And if you don't get these simple facts again, then don't be surprise i will not answer you again. Experience shows, that discussing with you is most likely a waste of time.

Well, first of all that isnt true for all of them, second of all, as I said, those are utility skills. They require a greater investment than a weapon skill. Hell, Ele has another invulnerability skill, Fortify. It lasts 3 second, and is channeled while rooting yourself. So not just locked out, you cant even move. And no, not really. Obsidian Flesh has always been an absurd skill. However, it used to have a critical weakness. It required you to swap to earth, and lose access to your previous attunement for quite some time. And the earth attunement was pretty bad for the most part. But both of those are no longer true, thanks to Weaver. Earth attunement is actually quite powerful, thanks to sword, while the recharge time is drastically lower. It was always borderline broken. Now with Weaver, there aint even a borderline.

These simple "facts" that arent facts. Man you really have an ego the size of the bleeding moon. Without anything to back it up. Tone it down a bit, your Superiority Complex is getting to the point of Self-Deception.

ele is one of the squishiest classes with fairly low hp, it needs its invulns to survive.

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ZhouX.8742

ZhouX.8742

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why was it changed at all? Because the stomps and rezzes were OP? Meanwhile core necros play unkillable rezz bots in pairs?

Yes, fix it fast! Or revert the whole horrible change! Not being able to cast is fine and fair, but why not for stomps and rezzes?

I mean free uninterruptible stomps/resses are pretty kitten powerful, but Engineer also can do it with Elixir S, soooo. My guess is more that it was a change done to prevent you from being able to cast it while stunned.

A 1/4s cast time I believe would accomplish this task.

Yes because turning an oh kitten button into something unusable when kitten jumps at you makes so much sense... The whole Obsidian change is completely nonsense right from start, there was no reason to change that skill, it was totally balanced compared to other invuln skills having additional effects/rewards to the invuln and less restrictions in accessibility. Also as now proven ingame it didn't even help a tiny bit to make sustain Ele builds less tanky or remarkable less impactful in dmg while being tanky.

I dont know what other invulnerability skills youre referring too, because all other invulnerability skills already locked you out of all skills. The only one that didnt is Mesmers Distortion, and even that one requires clones to have a long duration.

@Megametzler.5729 said:Not being able to cast is fine and fair

No it is not fair when looking at other invuln skills (just see above) and when considering why the skill was originally created like that on Ele. It might be endurable on braindead facetank meta bunker builds but for more skilled and squishy builds this is a horrible nonsense change. If you want to give bunker Eles more counter and less noobfriendly facetank sustain then there are a lot of other and better ways to do that without killing one of the very few ACTIVE defense tools more squishy and more skilled Ele builds have which depend on being able to attack while invuln. No clue what makes the current balance team think they know everything better than the origin balance team from core release days, when already their inconsistent trade off mess is showing that they have at max half the competence.

It is fair when looking at other invuln skills. They all lock you out of your skills. Either through channel time or literally locking them. And they also take up a utility slot, which is generally more valuable and more powerful as a result.

No, as said other invuln skills have additional rewards like a stunbreak or cd refreshment (f-skills on guard) or another very impactful skill (toolbelt skill with aoe stealth to cover resustain heal from almost downstate up to 100% hp). So Obsidian was differently designed because it is different. And it is wrong to treat different things on different classes the same. Looking at rewards and cds and the class environment the design without skill lock out on Ele (just as on Mesmer) was justified, balanced and made sense since game release. And if you don't get these simple facts again, then don't be surprise i will not answer you again. Experience shows, that discussing with you is most likely a waste of time.

Well, first of all that isnt true for all of them, second of all, as I said, those are utility skills. They require a greater investment than a weapon skill. Hell, Ele has another invulnerability skill, Fortify. It lasts 3 second, and is channeled while rooting yourself. So not just locked out, you cant even move. And no, not really. Obsidian Flesh has always been an absurd skill. However, it used to have a critical weakness. It required you to swap to earth, and lose access to your previous attunement for quite some time. And the earth attunement was pretty bad for the most part. But both of those are no longer true, thanks to Weaver. Earth attunement is actually quite powerful, thanks to sword, while the recharge time is drastically lower. It was always borderline broken. Now with Weaver, there aint even a borderline.

These simple "facts" that arent facts. Man you really have an ego the size of the bleeding moon. Without anything to back it up. Tone it down a bit, your Superiority Complex is getting to the point of Self-Deception.

ele is one of the squishiest classes with fairly low hp, it needs its invulns to survive.

yea

OK

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why was it changed at all? Because the stomps and rezzes were OP? Meanwhile core necros play unkillable rezz bots in pairs?

Yes, fix it fast! Or revert the whole horrible change! Not being able to cast is fine and fair, but why not for stomps and rezzes?

I mean free uninterruptible stomps/resses are pretty kitten powerful, but Engineer also can do it with Elixir S, soooo. My guess is more that it was a change done to prevent you from being able to cast it while stunned.

A 1/4s cast time I believe would accomplish this task.

Yes because turning an oh kitten button into something unusable when kitten jumps at you makes so much sense... The whole Obsidian change is completely nonsense right from start, there was no reason to change that skill, it was totally balanced compared to other invuln skills having additional effects/rewards to the invuln and less restrictions in accessibility. Also as now proven ingame it didn't even help a tiny bit to make sustain Ele builds less tanky or remarkable less impactful in dmg while being tanky.

I dont know what other invulnerability skills youre referring too, because all other invulnerability skills already locked you out of all skills. The only one that didnt is Mesmers Distortion, and even that one requires clones to have a long duration.

@Megametzler.5729 said:Not being able to cast is fine and fair

No it is not fair when looking at other invuln skills (just see above) and when considering why the skill was originally created like that on Ele. It might be endurable on braindead facetank meta bunker builds but for more skilled and squishy builds this is a horrible nonsense change. If you want to give bunker Eles more counter and less noobfriendly facetank sustain then there are a lot of other and better ways to do that without killing one of the very few ACTIVE defense tools more squishy and more skilled Ele builds have which depend on being able to attack while invuln. No clue what makes the current balance team think they know everything better than the origin balance team from core release days, when already their inconsistent trade off mess is showing that they have at max half the competence.

It is fair when looking at other invuln skills. They all lock you out of your skills. Either through channel time or literally locking them. And they also take up a utility slot, which is generally more valuable and more powerful as a result.

No, as said other invuln skills have additional rewards like a stunbreak or cd refreshment (f-skills on guard) or another very impactful skill (toolbelt skill with aoe stealth to cover resustain heal from almost downstate up to 100% hp). So Obsidian was differently designed because it is different. And it is wrong to treat different things on different classes the same. Looking at rewards and cds and the class environment the design without skill lock out on Ele (just as on Mesmer) was justified, balanced and made sense since game release. And if you don't get these simple facts again, then don't be surprise i will not answer you again. Experience shows, that discussing with you is most likely a waste of time.

Well, first of all that isnt true for all of them, second of all, as I said, those are utility skills. They require a greater investment than a weapon skill. Hell, Ele has another invulnerability skill, Fortify. It lasts 3 second, and is channeled while rooting yourself. So not just locked out, you cant even move. And no, not really. Obsidian Flesh has always been an absurd skill. However, it used to have a critical weakness. It required you to swap to earth, and lose access to your previous attunement for quite some time. And the earth attunement was pretty bad for the most part. But both of those are no longer true, thanks to Weaver. Earth attunement is actually quite powerful, thanks to sword, while the recharge time is drastically lower. It was always borderline broken. Now with Weaver, there aint even a borderline.

These simple "facts" that arent facts. Man you really have an ego the size of the bleeding moon. Without anything to back it up. Tone it down a bit, your Superiority Complex is getting to the point of Self-Deception.

ele is one of the squishiest classes with fairly low hp, it needs its invulns to survive.

Thief is only very slightly squishier, and they dont get any invulns. Sides, Weaver has plenty of evades, healing and barrier/protection.

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Axl.8924

Axl.8924

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why was it changed at all? Because the stomps and rezzes were OP? Meanwhile core necros play unkillable rezz bots in pairs?

Yes, fix it fast! Or revert the whole horrible change! Not being able to cast is fine and fair, but why not for stomps and rezzes?

I mean free uninterruptible stomps/resses are pretty kitten powerful, but Engineer also can do it with Elixir S, soooo. My guess is more that it was a change done to prevent you from being able to cast it while stunned.

A 1/4s cast time I believe would accomplish this task.

Yes because turning an oh kitten button into something unusable when kitten jumps at you makes so much sense... The whole Obsidian change is completely nonsense right from start, there was no reason to change that skill, it was totally balanced compared to other invuln skills having additional effects/rewards to the invuln and less restrictions in accessibility. Also as now proven ingame it didn't even help a tiny bit to make sustain Ele builds less tanky or remarkable less impactful in dmg while being tanky.

I dont know what other invulnerability skills youre referring too, because all other invulnerability skills already locked you out of all skills. The only one that didnt is Mesmers Distortion, and even that one requires clones to have a long duration.

@Megametzler.5729 said:Not being able to cast is fine and fair

No it is not fair when looking at other invuln skills (just see above) and when considering why the skill was originally created like that on Ele. It might be endurable on braindead facetank meta bunker builds but for more skilled and squishy builds this is a horrible nonsense change. If you want to give bunker Eles more counter and less noobfriendly facetank sustain then there are a lot of other and better ways to do that without killing one of the very few ACTIVE defense tools more squishy and more skilled Ele builds have which depend on being able to attack while invuln. No clue what makes the current balance team think they know everything better than the origin balance team from core release days, when already their inconsistent trade off mess is showing that they have at max half the competence.

It is fair when looking at other invuln skills. They all lock you out of your skills. Either through channel time or literally locking them. And they also take up a utility slot, which is generally more valuable and more powerful as a result.

No, as said other invuln skills have additional rewards like a stunbreak or cd refreshment (f-skills on guard) or another very impactful skill (toolbelt skill with aoe stealth to cover resustain heal from almost downstate up to 100% hp). So Obsidian was differently designed because it is different. And it is wrong to treat different things on different classes the same. Looking at rewards and cds and the class environment the design without skill lock out on Ele (just as on Mesmer) was justified, balanced and made sense since game release. And if you don't get these simple facts again, then don't be surprise i will not answer you again. Experience shows, that discussing with you is most likely a waste of time.

Well, first of all that isnt true for all of them, second of all, as I said, those are utility skills. They require a greater investment than a weapon skill. Hell, Ele has another invulnerability skill, Fortify. It lasts 3 second, and is channeled while rooting yourself. So not just locked out, you cant even move. And no, not really. Obsidian Flesh has always been an absurd skill. However, it used to have a critical weakness. It required you to swap to earth, and lose access to your previous attunement for quite some time. And the earth attunement was pretty bad for the most part. But both of those are no longer true, thanks to Weaver. Earth attunement is actually quite powerful, thanks to sword, while the recharge time is drastically lower. It was always borderline broken. Now with Weaver, there aint even a borderline.

These simple "facts" that arent facts. Man you really have an ego the size of the bleeding moon. Without anything to back it up. Tone it down a bit, your Superiority Complex is getting to the point of Self-Deception.

ele is one of the squishiest classes with fairly low hp, it needs its invulns to survive.

Thief is only
very
slightly squishier, and they don't get any invulns. Sides, Weaver has plenty of evades, healing and barrier/protection.

Depends on the elite tempest doesn't have as much mobility as thief, and thief is known for having overall tons of mobilty plus expect attacks with melee range from tempest so lots of risk, so they need to protect themselves.

Also hurting onyx skin would also hurt core and tempest.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why was it changed at all? Because the stomps and rezzes were OP? Meanwhile core necros play unkillable rezz bots in pairs?

Yes, fix it fast! Or revert the whole horrible change! Not being able to cast is fine and fair, but why not for stomps and rezzes?

I mean free uninterruptible stomps/resses are pretty kitten powerful, but Engineer also can do it with Elixir S, soooo. My guess is more that it was a change done to prevent you from being able to cast it while stunned.

A 1/4s cast time I believe would accomplish this task.

Yes because turning an oh kitten button into something unusable when kitten jumps at you makes so much sense... The whole Obsidian change is completely nonsense right from start, there was no reason to change that skill, it was totally balanced compared to other invuln skills having additional effects/rewards to the invuln and less restrictions in accessibility. Also as now proven ingame it didn't even help a tiny bit to make sustain Ele builds less tanky or remarkable less impactful in dmg while being tanky.

I dont know what other invulnerability skills youre referring too, because all other invulnerability skills already locked you out of all skills. The only one that didnt is Mesmers Distortion, and even that one requires clones to have a long duration.

@Megametzler.5729 said:Not being able to cast is fine and fair

No it is not fair when looking at other invuln skills (just see above) and when considering why the skill was originally created like that on Ele. It might be endurable on braindead facetank meta bunker builds but for more skilled and squishy builds this is a horrible nonsense change. If you want to give bunker Eles more counter and less noobfriendly facetank sustain then there are a lot of other and better ways to do that without killing one of the very few ACTIVE defense tools more squishy and more skilled Ele builds have which depend on being able to attack while invuln. No clue what makes the current balance team think they know everything better than the origin balance team from core release days, when already their inconsistent trade off mess is showing that they have at max half the competence.

It is fair when looking at other invuln skills. They all lock you out of your skills. Either through channel time or literally locking them. And they also take up a utility slot, which is generally more valuable and more powerful as a result.

No, as said other invuln skills have additional rewards like a stunbreak or cd refreshment (f-skills on guard) or another very impactful skill (toolbelt skill with aoe stealth to cover resustain heal from almost downstate up to 100% hp). So Obsidian was differently designed because it is different. And it is wrong to treat different things on different classes the same. Looking at rewards and cds and the class environment the design without skill lock out on Ele (just as on Mesmer) was justified, balanced and made sense since game release. And if you don't get these simple facts again, then don't be surprise i will not answer you again. Experience shows, that discussing with you is most likely a waste of time.

Well, first of all that isnt true for all of them, second of all, as I said, those are utility skills. They require a greater investment than a weapon skill. Hell, Ele has another invulnerability skill, Fortify. It lasts 3 second, and is channeled while rooting yourself. So not just locked out, you cant even move. And no, not really. Obsidian Flesh has always been an absurd skill. However, it used to have a critical weakness. It required you to swap to earth, and lose access to your previous attunement for quite some time. And the earth attunement was pretty bad for the most part. But both of those are no longer true, thanks to Weaver. Earth attunement is actually quite powerful, thanks to sword, while the recharge time is drastically lower. It was always borderline broken. Now with Weaver, there aint even a borderline.

These simple "facts" that arent facts. Man you really have an ego the size of the bleeding moon. Without anything to back it up. Tone it down a bit, your Superiority Complex is getting to the point of Self-Deception.

ele is one of the squishiest classes with fairly low hp, it needs its invulns to survive.

Thief is only
very
slightly squishier, and they don't get any invulns. Sides, Weaver has plenty of evades, healing and barrier/protection.

Depends on the elite tempest doesn't have as much mobility as thief, and thief is known for having overall tons of mobilty plus expect attacks with melee range from tempest so lots of risk, so they need to protect themselves.

Also hurting onyx skin would also hurt core and tempest.

Mobility is good when getting around, but within a fight it tends to not help you survive very much. Not against enemies that know how to abuse sword 2, at any rate.

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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Huh? I was merely stating that a 1/4s cast time would have accomplished the same thing if their goal was to prevent you using Obsidian Flesh when dazed/stunned instead of making it a channel.

Yes i know, i was refering to the goal of Anet you implied, what would not make any sense. But unlogical changes adding clunkyness and killing more skilled builds and playstyles for the sake of braindead builds while not even solving the issues from those metabuilds is the new fancy trend it seems.

Edit: Great now I'm going to get a ping for the next 10 replies between you two :'(

:joy: I hope it will be shorter, i am not willing to waste more time while experience shows that it doesn't make sense to discuss with him.

Literally 14 red icons because of you :angry:

Edit: Make that 15 after the one above.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@apharma.3741 said:

Huh? I was merely stating that a 1/4s cast time would have accomplished the same thing if their goal was to prevent you using Obsidian Flesh when dazed/stunned instead of making it a channel.

Yes i know, i was refering to the goal of Anet you implied, what would not make any sense. But unlogical changes adding clunkyness and killing more skilled builds and playstyles for the sake of braindead builds while not even solving the issues from those metabuilds is the new fancy trend it seems.

Edit: Great now I'm going to get a ping for the next 10 replies between you two :'(

:joy: I hope it will be shorter, i am not willing to waste more time while experience shows that it doesn't make sense to discuss with him.

Literally 14 red icons because of you :angry:

Edit: Make that 15 after the one above.

Rofl i stopped responding to him after 2 tries and then went back to ignoring him because you know, waste of time and such... they just keep quoting a quote from a quote from a quote from a quote from a quote... you can't blame me for that :joy:

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MyPuppy.8970

MyPuppy.8970

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...) So the problem becomes that even if, lets say, the Weaver didnt overperform at all, you would still have a build that can attack and kill you for 3 seconds while you are completely unable to fight back. You cant hit them for damage, you cant apply condis. Hell, you cant even
CC
them.

Referring this to stomping/rezzing (the only thing that got change by becoming a channel, apart from the stowability): You can rezz someone more quickly than these 3s duration, even without rezz traits. There are several 2on2 comps out there that just keep rezzing each other, mainly dual necros. There are few ways to deal with them, one being cleave + safe stomp.

So: I would be okay with this change (as long as Elixir S got the same treatment), if other classes did not have such an easy time rezzing and corrupting anytime they wanted. Until then, this feels random and like a completely unnecessary nerf to ele.

That part I can agree with. Though, Id say the main change is to not be able to invuln while youre CCd. Which is probably not neccessary either?

There are again two sides of this coin:a) Okay, as long as Elixir S gets the same treatment (and, potentially, vapour form).b) It is, however, not necessary in my view, because neither skill has been opressive. There are far more important concerns.

We simply don't know why they changed this. And leave other things untouched. And
then
they add such a horrible bug/misprogramming. Has to be changed immediately. Even though I am an ele main using focus with many builds, I don't want to play before this is changed.

I dont think you can stomp in Vaporform? I mean, Im not sure. I havent seen anyone use that skill in ages. Anyway, yeah the channeled thing is weird. Im not sure why they did that. The lockout however makes sense. Full invuln while being able to fight is just stupid.

You used to be able to do that, but I admit, I haven't used vapour form much in ages either.^^

Oh, and as somebody mentioned: Yes, attacking during invulnerability is awful. They should check distortion next to bring it in line! Balance is obviously not the point here.

Vapor Form is the down skill #2, you can't stomp/rez with that. You can with Mist form which is the cantrip utility (which is fine imo, same as elixir, since you need to invest a utility slot and save it for that occasion)

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