Top Rates Queue Dodge Each Other & Farm Low Rates - It's Not OK - Here Is The FIx

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Grimjack.8130" said:you cant queue dodge if ur qing on stream for 5 hours at a time

You don't need to because everyone is queue dodging the top player. Naru just got done talking about this in another thread. Players like Naru & Helios don't need to queue dodge 1800-1700 rated players or lower. On the other hand, people who are 1600 -1800 are definitely going out their way to queue dodge Naru & Helios, and each other for that matter.

Look man, it's a chain of effect that ends up punishing the guys who don't queue dodge at all, bellow the bellcurve, that creates a ton of inactivity in the process. The top 2 players obviously don't really need to queue dodge, at least not often. The top 10 will probably queue dodge the top 2, don't really need to queue dodge any lower unless they've identified sneaky alts from those top 2 players who are trying to tear down other player's ratings. The top 25 are definitely queue dodging the very threatening top 10 duos that they know they cannot beat. Top 100 players, if they are serious about climbing higher, definitely have a list of players above them that they queue dodge, the ones they know they cannot beat. Even down into top 250, players recognize names like Naru & Helios, as well as other top players, and they do go out of their way to queue dodge them. They have to because the population is so low in the 2v2 that, when everyone else is queue dodging those top players, if you queue when those top players are in queue, you get put against those top players. <- And this is what's happening, which is just destroying player participation, because many people queue dodge players who are better than they are, and this funnels all of these strong player down and at low rated guys who aren't even aware of what queue dodging even is.

I had played with many players of various different ratings during this 2v2 season while in discord with them. Almost every player that I was queueing with, was insisting on using queue dodging techniques. Even if we lost a match to two random accounts we had never seen before, someone will say "Add those guys and let's wait until they get into a match before we queue again because their comp counters us." So acting like this isn't happening is kind of ridiculous, considering that anyone can see that the majority of the community has learned how to meta game hard with queue dodging. This wasn't as big of a problem with 5v5, but it is really broken and exploitive in 2v2.

I also find it odd that whenever top players have been accused of straight flat out win trading in the past, they all quite seriously respond with: "BRO IT'S NOT WIN TRADING WHEN YOU JUST QUEUE AT 2:00 AM IN THE MORNING, FARM LOW PLAYERS, AND QUEUE DODGE OTHER TOP PLAYERS." <- This has been said so many times in this forum by the top player's themselves, that is has become a true meme. Now you're going to tell me that this isn't the case and it isn't happening? Just kind of looks like one blanket excuse after another imo.

@"Chaith.8256" said:This is another Trevor Boyer conspiracy

Hey man, I see things happening and then I make it public discussion. That's all I do.

A quick review of my post history from both the new and the old forum, would show that most of what I point out either was happening at the time or did end up happening when warnings were ignored.

A few highlights here that vouch for the credibility of my words:

1. Pre season 6, I had harped hard about win trading because it had gotten out of control. For every one post I made about win trading, 10 accounts "including top players" would appear and respond to me, saying I was a conspiracy theorist. When season 6 ended, thousands of accounts were suspended/banned, including the main accounts of many top players/streamers. I even knew an entire guild with the tag Unknown Phenomena [uP] that was completely swallowed up by the ban phase, almost every player losing their account due to what they had been doing that season. And I know for a fact what they were doing because they had invited me to partake with them, but I chose not to.
2. Some time after, I had made a public discord for players to post evidence of match manipulation and other forms of cheating. This was to expose cheaters in a place where the evidence couldn't be taken down by Arenanet. Everyone said it was conspiracy. Lo & behold I could not believe some of evidence that was posted in that discord from top players about top players, and the level of evidence that it was. I removed the discord because I learned that nothing I could do mattered unless Arenanet cared to take action, and that driving such an activity boldly and publicly catches nothing but a lot of social stigma & hate from the demographic you are trying to expose. That social stigma lingers to do this day, and it's something I now have to deal with within this community.
3. I once harped for months maybe even a year or more "this was in the old forum", about how something was wrong with the algorithm, that the numbers were off with how it was distributing MMR weight on teams. Everyone called me a conspiracy theorist. Lo & behold, two Arenanet devs began posting in one of the bigger threads on the topic, and let everyone know that a bug was identified and that it was indeed creating the exact problem that I had pointed out. I was the only person in this forum who noticed it was happening.
4. For a much more recent example: Right before the big nerf patch, I had pointed my finger up into the sky like Babe Ruth and said: "Necro sustain is going to be absolutely broken. There will be unkillable Necro Bunkers." Everyone called me a conspiracy theorist. Not a single person agreed with me. Lo & Behold.. we all know what happened there.
5. This list could go on and on with smaller examples.

Sometimes you just have to look at good feedback and accept it for what it is.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@zoopop.5630 said:100% small population.

Imagine being 1300 rated in 2vs2 as a Solo Player getting paired against a duo over 2k LOL.

The game mode needs to be fix in multiple ways. Placing Blame on higher rated players isn't the way to go about it and Reason why the population is dog kitten low is because of the amount of unfun it is to run against double Necro, Double Fb, Double Engi Etc Or Something along the lines of FB/Necro and FB/Crev.

teleport Issues on some maps also being something that a lot of players don't like but to make it simple theirs JUST WAY to much stuff that needs to be addressed if 2vs2 wants to actually be something else other then a meme.

Would like to point out that, I said nothing about blaming top players or anyone for that matter.

I specifically pointed out that the algorithm allowing matches with such large marginal gaps in average rating vs. average rating, is the problem. There is a serious domino effect of problems that is occurring from this algorithm function.

[otto.5684]

@Zexanima.7851 said:I can't tell you how many times I've been paired with someone in the top 20~ as a player who plays around 1400-1500 rating. Its nonsense really.

It is not as far off as you think. P1 is around 90% in skill rating. So the skill variances all the way to legendary is not that huge. 2 leg players with a team of gold will lose against P1-P2 players. Badly too.

It becomes problematic when P3+ get matched with gold. Sadly, not so many people play sPvP anymore for the match making to thrive. It needs population.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

I feel like this has too many possible negative knock-on effects.

Heres my alternate suggestion:1.dishonor is tracked on a weekly basis,2.Points gained are decreased/increased proportionally to your team's rating average compared to your opponent's3.Gaining too much dishonor starts to give you - points, these will be calculated based off of point 2.

[Chaith.8256]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Chaith.8256" said:One thing doesn't make sense here, infinite queue time for Naru won't prevent queue dodging. The two other people even capable of facing him under the OP's proposed system could still queue dodge.

ArenaNet will never again implement a matchmaker that never expands past a certain amount, they've been there and done that.

This thread is completely asinine, a more productive discussion would be to limit what information is shown on friends list about what instance in PvP the player is in.

I had thought about that as well. Everything with how the UI works enables such problems.

And the infinite queue time for Naru thing, I already explained why shortening the margin of rating vs rating allowance would help heal inactivity over time. You're looking at this from the perspective of "how would this pan out right now today if it was added" rather than understanding how it will effect things over the course of time, which will even effect how easily a player could even achieve 2000 rating during a season to begin with it, and sit on it. The trajectory of this effect, would have greatly altered player ratings achieved, and the amount of players who chose to stop participating, if it had been in effect from the start of this season.

The suggestion for "within 150 range" is specifically for 2v2 btw, Chaith. I've pointed this out about 3x now in this thread. I am not talking about conquest. In conquest, having an average party rating vs. average party rating difference that is 150 or greater is just super rare and doesn't normally happen at all. So why should it be any different in 2v2? The fact that it is, is what drove participation into the ground, and I used this thread to outline what I viewed as the largest reason why it happened.

The way these 2v2 queues function, with the way players are working it now such lower population, makes this a much different case scenario than 5v5 conquest. The cause & effect of "within 150" for 2v2 would actually be a healthy rule. If you can't figure out why after everything I've already outlined in this thread, then we can agree to disagree.

Yeah sorry man, that's just how I feel about it. Sorry about that.

I'm aware this is just a discussion about 2v2. The continuous problem is that you are assuming that if they put a 150 rating difference cap, there'd be a significant population surge and the strongest players on strongest specs wouldn't be able to get so far ahead.

Both of these assumptions are demonstrably wrong.

1.) The best players on the best specs have essentially infinite rating growth without queue dodging, (which will not happen any more or less,) or farming people 400 rating below. So your rating cap idea will break the game for them, even in a fresh future season. Agree to disagree indeed.

2.) There's no evidence to suggest longer queues and closer MMR increases PvP population significantly

[Reikou.7068]

A match should only begin if both duos are within 150 average rating of each other

Been saying this forever.

To expand on this and push the idea of fairness, remove duo queue altogether.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think a far simpler and often repeated solution would be to make decay more hardcore. I really don't care if people spend their time queue dodging, it doesn't effect 90% of players, so imo trying to tackle this problem doesn't seem like a priority. now high ranks getting paired with low ranks, if its at populated hours, yeah eventually there should be some sort of rating pairing cut off (maybe not 150, but 200 or 250). its a big difference but too low and queue times for top peeps increases too dramatically, essentially punishing people for being good.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:One thing doesn't make sense here, infinite queue time for Naru won't prevent queue dodging. The two other people even capable of facing him under the OP's proposed system could still queue dodge.

ArenaNet will never again implement a matchmaker that never expands past a certain amount, they've been there and done that.

This thread is completely asinine, a more productive discussion would be to limit what information is shown on friends list about what instance in PvP the player is in.

I had thought about that as well. Everything with how the UI works enables such problems.

And the infinite queue time for Naru thing, I already explained why shortening the margin of rating vs rating allowance would help heal inactivity over time. You're looking at this from the perspective of "how would this pan out right now today if it was added" rather than understanding how it will effect things over the course of time, which will even effect how easily a player could even achieve 2000 rating during a season to begin with it, and sit on it. The trajectory of this effect, would have greatly altered player ratings achieved, and the amount of players who chose to stop participating, if it had been in effect from the start of this season.

The suggestion for "within 150 range" is specifically for 2v2 btw, Chaith. I've pointed this out about 3x now in this thread. I am not talking about conquest. In conquest, having an average party rating vs. average party rating difference that is 150 or greater is just super rare and doesn't normally happen at all. So why should it be any different in 2v2? The fact that it is, is what drove participation into the ground, and I used this thread to outline what I viewed as the largest reason why it happened.

The way these 2v2 queues function, with the way players are working it now such lower population, makes this a much different case scenario than 5v5 conquest. The cause & effect of "within 150" for 2v2 would actually be a healthy rule. If you can't figure out why after everything I've already outlined in this thread, then we can agree to disagree.

Yeah sorry man, that's just how I feel about it. Sorry about that.

I'm aware this is just a discussion about 2v2. The continuous problem is that you are assuming that if they put a 150 rating difference cap, there'd be a significant population surge and the strongest players on strongest specs wouldn't be able to get so far ahead.

Both of these assumptions are demonstrably wrong.

1.) The best players on the best specs have essentially infinite rating growth without queue dodging, (which will not happen any more or less,) or farming people 400 rating below. So your rating cap idea will break the game for them, even in a fresh future season. Agree to disagree indeed.

2.) There's no evidence to suggest longer queues and closer MMR increases PvP population significantly

You've always been a great player, Chaith. And due to that, I'm not so sure you're quite understanding the effect on "the fun factor" when you are a player who should be in silver 3/gold 1, but every other queue you do is against 1650+ opponents. Players don't mind losing matches, but they don't like getting steam rolled to the point that they weren't even able to drop their opponents health bars bellow 95%. When these types of matches are happening too frequently, it leaves a very sour taste in people's mouths, and they walk away from the game mode with the mind frame of "Why should I even try?" When this begins happening the amount of players who are willing to stay & play in any game mode in spvp begins to decline dramatically, as well as raw participation in the 2v2 ranked season. It creates an effect where we have very few people who are competitively inclined enough to actually stay and try hard to learn to keep up in the game mode, and then people leave and they don't come back because it isn't fun, and/or it feels WAY too daunting to even begin to invest time into.

As a person who has gaming aptitude naturally, I want you to imagine what you've had to do in the past to competitively keep up with such top players, and what it feels like to take a long break and come back and have to sort of relearn a meta again, that sweaty time investment. Remember how hard it was even for you, even during year 1 when everyone lacked experience. Now imagine being an average to subpar casual player who has neither the sweat in them or the schedule time to get serious, who just bought GW2 who wants to have casual fun in pvp. Imagine going into a queue and being put into a match against 8 year veteran Chaith, and then a game or two later you're against Team USA. Do you think that person would be having fun in GW2 pvp? These average to subpar players encompass the large majority of potential player base participation, but no one stays to play a game that they have no chance of winning because that isn't fun. It's as simple as that, and it is happening because there is no hard limit on how large of a margin of rating difference can be between each duo.

Now in 5v5 conquest, a match may feel steam roll due to many factors concerning comp vs. comp, but realistically as quoted by Arenanet devs, the average party vs. party is rarely a larger margin than about 50 average vs. average rating difference. People whine and complain about losses, but deep down inside they recognize things like: "We lost because my team was countered for this comp reason, or we messed up a couple important rotations or team fights, ect ect." and so they know that: "The match was actually possible to win." <- And that is why they keep playing, because the match was possible to win. However, in a 2v2 season when you are silver3/gold 1 and are going against 1650+ every other game you queue, people look at it and say: "There was actually no possible way for me to win that match, unless I were to dig deep down inside and find the desire for sweat, and clear a large opening in my schedule to put it to use." <- That feeling right there, is what makes people stop trying. That feeling is exactly what I've heard several people tell me how they felt over discord, about this 2v2 season. And players were feeling that because there was no hard limit on average vs. average rating difference, and who they were being made to fight.

I guess we agree to disagree. But in my opinion, if Arenanet wants to run another 2v2 season, they need to limit the margin to 150 max. If this isn't done, the spvp mode will inevitably shrink into something like a private club, where only 6 to 8 year veterans even have the mettle to stick around, and we can already see that happening.

I enjoyed the 2v2, but truthfully it may be best if it was only ran as tournament. I don't think it worked well for a ranked queue for most people.

[Chaith.8256]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I'm not so sure you're quite understanding the effect on "the fun factor" when you are a player who should be in silver 3/gold 1, but every other queue you do is against 1650+ opponents.

There are only 29 people on NA who are +1650.. there are probably tons of way more appropriate enemies the matchmaker can put you against if you're silver 3 or gold 1. You'll face a 1650 player if you are literally the highest ranked duo queuing, and the 1650 rated person has waited 5 minutes already.

I think it's a normal human reaction when you get stomped to think "there's nothing I can do to win (except put lots more effort in)" and quit. I'm not sure what to say here, I don't think the matchmaker can even possibly stop that

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I'm not so sure you're quite understanding the effect on "the fun factor" when you are a player who should be in silver 3/gold 1, but every other queue you do is against 1650+ opponents.

There are only 29 people on NA who are +1650.. there are probably tons of way more appropriate enemies the matchmaker can put you against if you're silver 3 or gold 1. You'll face a 1650 player if you are literally the highest ranked duo queuing, and the 1650 rated person has waited 5 minutes already.

I think it's a normal human reaction when you get stomped to think "there's nothing I can do to win (except put lots more effort in)" and quit. I'm not sure what to say here, I don't think the matchmaker can even possibly stop that

Except that top players queue and stream for hours and hours at a time, while casual players queue for very short durations of time.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Reikou.7068 said:Been saying this forever.

To expand on this and push the idea of fairness, remove duo queue altogether.

Or split them. That way teams can still exist but can only go up against other teams whereas SoloQ's can only go against other SoloQ's.

Ez fix. The threshold rating could still exist, but would really only be necessary for Teams if it did. SoloQ always was more fast and accurate with its matchmaking before Season 13.

[Chaith.8256]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Except that top players queue and stream for hours and hours at a time, while casual players queue for very short durations of time.

There's not a damn thing to substantiate that, wut? If you look at the top 250, there's many players at 1400 rating who have played more matches than the top 30.

[Virdo.1540]

" A match should only begin if both duos are within 150 average rating of each other"

its not like there are a hundred duos 24/7 waiting for matches.

[TROUBLEMAKER.9237]

Yes you are 100% right ..

I got four times in a row duo players who are currently top of the leaderboard (i played at night european time when i didn't have any of my friends online and there not many people online) the difference in raiting was about 400 and i had a solo que.. these people in top have a very good strategy to play against weak players ..pvp is no longer about skill as a fooling matchmaking.. ANET please fix it.

you'd better wait 30min in que like play against 400 raiting stronger DUOqthis player who has less raiting just discourages the game / leave game / ragequit game .. and because of that, there are not so many players in pvp

if you're in top - play only against the topSTOP FARM PPL ON GOLD

[EremiteAngel.9765]

If queue dodging is really happening, then I feel sorry for the players doing so.

[mortrialus.3062]

It might be best where if you're in PvP or have recently played a match to have the game hide people's location on your friend's / block list.

[Tiale.2430]

Yes. Best solution to this abuse is remove locations from friendlist. If you need fo know what someone is doing, just ask him.