Strike wont make me raid

[Moradorin.6217]

By the way anyone can judge for themselves about the logic of your ski analogy. Im confident in the logic of my analogy and equally confident that your analogy was a random hap hazard attempt to poke holes in my commends, apparently because you would like to see more dev time invested into WvW, which again seems totally displaced and backwards.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:I have avoided raids for the most part for a few reasons. They all seem pretty common. I think they are, therefore, arguably the real issue with raids and strikes.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:I've said it before and I'll say it again: Strikes are a cool concept but they make the mistake of implementing them backwards.

With raids you have way too much immersive design and resources going into a mode that ultimately is being played comptetively and thus will not really be played for the journey or to be experienced. So Strikes should not be an introduction to Raids, Raids should be an introduction to Strikes. Raids should be the journey and the experience. It should be where people go for an deeper extension of the experiences they gain on the open world maps. It should deliver the things that the maps may not be able to in terms of deeper PvE experience and storytelling. Strikes should be designed to be competetively challenging, so more Strikes can be put out to satiate the needs of the competetive PvE communities on shorter release cycles. They too could be closer tied to the maps but they should be their own competetive environment much more where focus is on challenging mechanics and bragging rights.

I realize that there is a substantial part of the GW2 community now that are not MMO-players and rather single-player type of players who have been seduced by the many years of focus on LS. However, in a broader perspective, this focus on LS has appearantly not served the company well. Their game ultimately is an MMO and excels as an MMO and that needs to be re-established for the game to have a future. Lately, it seemingly looks as if the company itself also has come to that realization with a return to replayability and good push-pull map design in the pipeline.

This discussion is in my eyes an extension of that. They should keep focusing on good map design first and foremost. They should put LS initiatives more onto maps and into raids. They should put competetive raid initiatives into strikes where the meat-and-potatoes boss is the focus and the focus is not the resource- or asset-demanding spice or garnish. The players who are annoyed over having to play with other players in this online world was never supposed to be the target demographic of a product like this. If you want to appease them, make a single player game. Having an MMO game where you prioritize single-player focus will not appease everyone, it will not suffieciently appease anyone and gives you marketing issues. If you want GW2 to stay healthy, focus on the social, competetive and cooperative multiplayer aspects it was designed around. That clearly was the working recipe.

^ One reason I WOULD want to raid is I would like to enjoy the story. However, in raid groups you dont really get to enjoy the story or it takes so much time to organize etc that it just isnt possible to be on that long or I get hungry, tired, bored before things even get going and end up feeling like WOW I dont ever want to do THAT again.

@"Rukia.4802" said:Strikes were never going to get people to raid. ANet are like a toddler in MMO-basics. An easy mode for casuals is the norm now but ANet didn't get the memo just like proper queue system for instances.

Its a shame because probably so few people actually see raids and they don't see it as a great return on investment. If they just implement a LFR then 90% of players will queue into it if all they have to do is press a button and do a couple ez mechanics and see the story. I bet the public option for strikes is very popular for example.

Then the content isn't "wasted" and THIS is what gets people to move onto pugging normal, heroic, etc. in WoW. Sure, most will probably stick to LFR which is fine, but you do get quite a few new raiders and in the end what does it matter if everyone gets to see the content you will still have your casuals and hardcores.

Strikes are so disconnected with raids its silly.

I actually think this is a good idea. That is I agree with both posts in that they are suggesting raids should be more enjoyable to people can experience the content. I mean, it really does seem like the worst possible use of development resources to put in so much time into content MOST of the player base (who pay for the game) NEVER see the content outside a youtube video. That is just shamefully bad design. I feel its bad design because they failed to make it accessible.

Now they are trying to make strikes as a stepping stone, but I think your idea makes a hell of allot more sense. I think raids should be easier to run to the point that everyone can faceroll through them like OpenWorld, Stories, etc. THEN make shorter strikes that are hard and have many different hard strikes for those who want new hard content. It would use less resources to keep the more demanding players happy and would allow more of the player base to enjoy the fun and pretty content that is hidden behind the Wall that is raiding.

TBH I think raids s it stands now was a large waste of resources and allot of delusional planning cause Im guessing Anet thought people would do them more which ignores how few people actually do T4s and CMs vs how many do fractals. Same thing. Fractals in general are accessible for average players to enjoy, but T4 and CM offers people more of a challenge. The difference is Strikes + Raids is BACKWARDS. Meaning, Raids should be the easy accessible content and Strikes should be the equivalent of T4s and CMs. You could have a variety of strikes with scaling difficulty or add instabilities as an option to raise the challenge even more. It seems like this kinda of change might actually give everyone more enjoyable content. That said, I'm sure some hard core raiding dudes will come tell me why this is wrong.

edit: Also the time factor. Pretty much every time I have tried to raid it becomes allot of waiting around then when you finally get the "correct 10 players" someone has to leave, then another, and this can drag out all because of the complexity of what is required to basically enjoy some neat content. So after a few times of wasting an entire evening or day waiting with thumb up you know what, I personally lost interest in the idea of raiding because it takes a long time and isn't designed to be fun. Also I have legendary armor already so really the only reason I wanted to raid was to experience the content, but its locked up in this fiasco so I for the moment moved on and just don't bother cause it isn't worth it at present.

From everything I've heard and read the raids in this game shouldn't be taking anyone 2 - 4 hours to complete, as far as I know, and someone can correct me if they want they're designed to be finished is a little as an hour(60 minutes and that isn't a speed run asfaik) up to 90 minutes(2 hours is pushing it from what I've heard through several sources). I'm not going to respond to the waiting around part because that sounds like you're trying to PUG it and that will take a lot of waiting around, best experience is through a guild that raids consistently or forming your own in-guild raid team. Obviously not everyone is going to experience the same thing, but I know that ArenaNet did not want the Raids in GW2 to be those long time commitments that you have in other MMO's. That being said, I still wouldn't do them even if they had a casual mode with reduced rewards, there's really no reason to do them for the story when I can just watch a video of the story/lore, that's the same as doing it myself only I didn't run through the content on my character.

Your response is nothing but a side line. It doesn't actually address what is stated as the issue. It doesn't agree or disagree, yet attempts to dismiss what was said.

What was said is basically, that most players don't and never will raid with the present raid system, yet most players WOULD like to experience the content and would enjoy it other than for all the reasons mentioned. Some posted suggestions I felt made sense. Specifically, I like the idea of making strikes much harder, and making raids much easier. I think its a stupid waste of resources for Anet to pour so much into Raid content when Most players will never use it. Rather, I think it would make allot more sense to have raid content much more accessible since its some of the best actual content in the game and is currently a waste. For those who want a good challenge, strikes seems like the logical format vs the raid content that presently takes up so much development and gives little to nothing for the average player.In other words, I see Anet using up so much development resources on raids that most players wont ever use a massive waste. I think should be obvious that this makes sense regardless of how long you think an experienced raid team takes. Its totally beside the point. I was just adding in why I myself don't raid. I don't raid because planning, prepping, training, and looking for 10 people of the right class, with the right gear, right build, right experience, ability to tie it all together and know all the mechanics IS SOMETHING MOST PLAYERS WILL NEVER DO SO ITS A WASTE OF RESOURCES! Again, that seems totally obvious and hard NOT to admit. Seems like you HAVE to be bias not to agree with that.

I replied to someone that said they didn't have the time to Raid, that is what that specific reply was in reference to, nothing more...when someone is not telling the truth about something it makes sense to repute that statement, which is all I did. Saying they take to long is disingenuous at best, unless you only have 15 - 30 minutes to play...and I don't want people with families and spouses to start whining. I had those too, and I still made time to game because I needed to relax and get away from the real world, it wasn't that difficult to juggle parenting and being a spouse alongside long playing sessions every single night..and now I'm going off on a tangent.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:I have avoided raids for the most part for a few reasons. They all seem pretty common. I think they are, therefore, arguably the real issue with raids and strikes.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:I've said it before and I'll say it again: Strikes are a cool concept but they make the mistake of implementing them backwards.

With raids you have way too much immersive design and resources going into a mode that ultimately is being played comptetively and thus will not really be played for the journey or to be experienced. So Strikes should not be an introduction to Raids, Raids should be an introduction to Strikes. Raids should be the journey and the experience. It should be where people go for an deeper extension of the experiences they gain on the open world maps. It should deliver the things that the maps may not be able to in terms of deeper PvE experience and storytelling. Strikes should be designed to be competetively challenging, so more Strikes can be put out to satiate the needs of the competetive PvE communities on shorter release cycles. They too could be closer tied to the maps but they should be their own competetive environment much more where focus is on challenging mechanics and bragging rights.

I realize that there is a substantial part of the GW2 community now that are not MMO-players and rather single-player type of players who have been seduced by the many years of focus on LS. However, in a broader perspective, this focus on LS has appearantly not served the company well. Their game ultimately is an MMO and excels as an MMO and that needs to be re-established for the game to have a future. Lately, it seemingly looks as if the company itself also has come to that realization with a return to replayability and good push-pull map design in the pipeline.

This discussion is in my eyes an extension of that. They should keep focusing on good map design first and foremost. They should put LS initiatives more onto maps and into raids. They should put competetive raid initiatives into strikes where the meat-and-potatoes boss is the focus and the focus is not the resource- or asset-demanding spice or garnish. The players who are annoyed over having to play with other players in this online world was never supposed to be the target demographic of a product like this. If you want to appease them, make a single player game. Having an MMO game where you prioritize single-player focus will not appease everyone, it will not suffieciently appease anyone and gives you marketing issues. If you want GW2 to stay healthy, focus on the social, competetive and cooperative multiplayer aspects it was designed around. That clearly was the working recipe.

^ One reason I WOULD want to raid is I would like to enjoy the story. However, in raid groups you dont really get to enjoy the story or it takes so much time to organize etc that it just isnt possible to be on that long or I get hungry, tired, bored before things even get going and end up feeling like WOW I dont ever want to do THAT again.

@"Rukia.4802" said:Strikes were never going to get people to raid. ANet are like a toddler in MMO-basics. An easy mode for casuals is the norm now but ANet didn't get the memo just like proper queue system for instances.

Its a shame because probably so few people actually see raids and they don't see it as a great return on investment. If they just implement a LFR then 90% of players will queue into it if all they have to do is press a button and do a couple ez mechanics and see the story. I bet the public option for strikes is very popular for example.

Then the content isn't "wasted" and THIS is what gets people to move onto pugging normal, heroic, etc. in WoW. Sure, most will probably stick to LFR which is fine, but you do get quite a few new raiders and in the end what does it matter if everyone gets to see the content you will still have your casuals and hardcores.

Strikes are so disconnected with raids its silly.

I actually think this is a good idea. That is I agree with both posts in that they are suggesting raids should be more enjoyable to people can experience the content. I mean, it really does seem like the worst possible use of development resources to put in so much time into content MOST of the player base (who pay for the game) NEVER see the content outside a youtube video. That is just shamefully bad design. I feel its bad design because they failed to make it accessible.

Now they are trying to make strikes as a stepping stone, but I think your idea makes a hell of allot more sense. I think raids should be easier to run to the point that everyone can faceroll through them like OpenWorld, Stories, etc. THEN make shorter strikes that are hard and have many different hard strikes for those who want new hard content. It would use less resources to keep the more demanding players happy and would allow more of the player base to enjoy the fun and pretty content that is hidden behind the Wall that is raiding.

TBH I think raids s it stands now was a large waste of resources and allot of delusional planning cause Im guessing Anet thought people would do them more which ignores how few people actually do T4s and CMs vs how many do fractals. Same thing. Fractals in general are accessible for average players to enjoy, but T4 and CM offers people more of a challenge. The difference is Strikes + Raids is BACKWARDS. Meaning, Raids should be the easy accessible content and Strikes should be the equivalent of T4s and CMs. You could have a variety of strikes with scaling difficulty or add instabilities as an option to raise the challenge even more. It seems like this kinda of change might actually give everyone more enjoyable content. That said, I'm sure some hard core raiding dudes will come tell me why this is wrong.

edit: Also the time factor. Pretty much every time I have tried to raid it becomes allot of waiting around then when you finally get the "correct 10 players" someone has to leave, then another, and this can drag out all because of the complexity of what is required to basically enjoy some neat content. So after a few times of wasting an entire evening or day waiting with thumb up you know what, I personally lost interest in the idea of raiding because it takes a long time and isn't designed to be fun. Also I have legendary armor already so really the only reason I wanted to raid was to experience the content, but its locked up in this fiasco so I for the moment moved on and just don't bother cause it isn't worth it at present.

From everything I've heard and read the raids in this game shouldn't be taking anyone 2 - 4 hours to complete, as far as I know, and someone can correct me if they want they're designed to be finished is a little as an hour(60 minutes and that isn't a speed run asfaik) up to 90 minutes(2 hours is pushing it from what I've heard through several sources). I'm not going to respond to the waiting around part because that sounds like you're trying to PUG it and that will take a lot of waiting around, best experience is through a guild that raids consistently or forming your own in-guild raid team. Obviously not everyone is going to experience the same thing, but I know that ArenaNet did not want the Raids in GW2 to be those long time commitments that you have in other MMO's. That being said, I still wouldn't do them even if they had a casual mode with reduced rewards, there's really no reason to do them for the story when I can just watch a video of the story/lore, that's the same as doing it myself only I didn't run through the content on my character.

Your response is nothing but a side line. It doesn't actually address what is stated as the issue. It doesn't agree or disagree, yet attempts to dismiss what was said.

What was said is basically, that most players don't and never will raid with the present raid system, yet most players WOULD like to experience the content and would enjoy it other than for all the reasons mentioned. Some posted suggestions I felt made sense. Specifically, I like the idea of making strikes much harder, and making raids much easier. I think its a stupid waste of resources for Anet to pour so much into Raid content when Most players will never use it. Rather, I think it would make allot more sense to have raid content much more accessible since its some of the best actual content in the game and is currently a waste. For those who want a good challenge, strikes seems like the logical format vs the raid content that presently takes up so much development and gives little to nothing for the average player.In other words, I see Anet using up so much development resources on raids that most players wont ever use a massive waste. I think should be obvious that this makes sense regardless of how long you think an experienced raid team takes. Its totally beside the point. I was just adding in why I myself don't raid. I don't raid because planning, prepping, training, and looking for 10 people of the right class, with the right gear, right build, right experience, ability to tie it all together and know all the mechanics IS SOMETHING MOST PLAYERS WILL NEVER DO SO ITS A WASTE OF RESOURCES! Again, that seems totally obvious and hard NOT to admit. Seems like you HAVE to be bias not to agree with that.

I replied to someone that said they didn't have the time to Raid, that is what that specific reply was in reference to, nothing more...when someone is not telling the truth about something it makes sense to repute that statement, which is all I did. Saying they take to long is disingenuous at best, unless you only have 15 - 30 minutes to play...and I don't want people with families and spouses to start whining. I had those too, and I still made time to game because I needed to relax and get away from the real world, it wasn't that difficult to juggle parenting and being a spouse alongside long playing sessions every single night..and now I'm going off on a tangent.

The assertion that raids take 15-30 is laughable. Nuff said.

The overall point of what I have said was in support of what others suggested. Nothing more. Specifically, I was agreeing with the idea that since raids have allot of great content that the majority of the player base would enjoy if the average player felt Raiding was more accessible while ALSO acknowledging that many endgame players want more challenging content and more new content. Since Strikes are less complicated BUT CAN be very challenging (boneskinner) for raiders. I like the idea other players suggest. Specifically, that if raids where made easier more people could enjoy the content and maybe if strikes where made to fill the niche of highly challenging scalable content for demanding power gamer types that perhaps that would be a better balance and better use of resources. In other words, if raids where easy and strikes where hard, with challenge motes and instabilities as options for more challenge, the player base as a whole may gain much more from the same development time and efforts. Wouldn't that be nice!?!

I dont expect everyone to agree with this and said as much. However, the idea that this is somehow illogical is, well..., illogical. ;)

[Thornwolf.9721]

@"vyncius.6105" said:Story content isnt fun to me, i play once and i never playing story again. Because its boring press F simulator. Its not my thing.Does that mean anet shouldnt develop story content???? HELL NO! Some people like that and i respect that.

I like my raids, i like to join discord with people and discuss strategies about raid. Doesnt matter if its new (those are hella fun first time) or just how to be more efficient on old raids.

So please, keep your opinion to yourself, we understand its not your thing, but atleast stay silent and let us hope for wing 8.

I also like strikes, especially new one and whispers of jormag.

You dont need to lobby for raids to be discontinued, its been done. Strikes + Visions put together are raids, they have the two portions separated. Raids are dead and are joining dungeons; They are the smallest of the player-base communities and I Feel the dev's think that like fractals did for dungeons these two modes will make them more accessible and more readily available. The word "Raids" has a toxic hatred smeared on it, Strikes and visions though? Nah they are free of that and the playerbase seems to be accepting them rather well. A-net will double down on them and make them your go to end-game PvE content.

Raids have no reason to continue with how small of a community they have, how few people do them and the nature of them. They can stay as dungeons have as "Heritage" content as strikes seem to be taking up the reigns, Note they said that Fractals WILL BE actively worked on. And raids were mentioned as a "We'll see" So given how longs its been, unless stated by A-net Im going to believe they are dead. Because no one on the team has stated otherwise, so until such a day comes where they say for 100% fact that wing 8 is coming them assume the worst. They did this to dungeons too, it was silent at first and the fractals happened and they moved the idea of dungeons to fractals in its own contained little area in lions arch. Note how Eye of the north is now a hub for strikes AND visions; This happened quickly and means that im sure the Eye will be getting attention for the foreseeable future.

Im sorry but again, until they prove otherwise this is how it seems. This reminds me ALOT of what happened to dungeons~

[maddoctor.2738]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:They actually came out and gave the number. I believe it was like 7.5% or something like that?

Where/when did they give that number?

[Llaerdan.5298]

I think SM are a really good idea to help people learn how to respect mechanics.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:I have avoided raids for the most part for a few reasons. They all seem pretty common. I think they are, therefore, arguably the real issue with raids and strikes.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:I've said it before and I'll say it again: Strikes are a cool concept but they make the mistake of implementing them backwards.

With raids you have way too much immersive design and resources going into a mode that ultimately is being played comptetively and thus will not really be played for the journey or to be experienced. So Strikes should not be an introduction to Raids, Raids should be an introduction to Strikes. Raids should be the journey and the experience. It should be where people go for an deeper extension of the experiences they gain on the open world maps. It should deliver the things that the maps may not be able to in terms of deeper PvE experience and storytelling. Strikes should be designed to be competetively challenging, so more Strikes can be put out to satiate the needs of the competetive PvE communities on shorter release cycles. They too could be closer tied to the maps but they should be their own competetive environment much more where focus is on challenging mechanics and bragging rights.

I realize that there is a substantial part of the GW2 community now that are not MMO-players and rather single-player type of players who have been seduced by the many years of focus on LS. However, in a broader perspective, this focus on LS has appearantly not served the company well. Their game ultimately is an MMO and excels as an MMO and that needs to be re-established for the game to have a future. Lately, it seemingly looks as if the company itself also has come to that realization with a return to replayability and good push-pull map design in the pipeline.

This discussion is in my eyes an extension of that. They should keep focusing on good map design first and foremost. They should put LS initiatives more onto maps and into raids. They should put competetive raid initiatives into strikes where the meat-and-potatoes boss is the focus and the focus is not the resource- or asset-demanding spice or garnish. The players who are annoyed over having to play with other players in this online world was never supposed to be the target demographic of a product like this. If you want to appease them, make a single player game. Having an MMO game where you prioritize single-player focus will not appease everyone, it will not suffieciently appease anyone and gives you marketing issues. If you want GW2 to stay healthy, focus on the social, competetive and cooperative multiplayer aspects it was designed around. That clearly was the working recipe.

^ One reason I WOULD want to raid is I would like to enjoy the story. However, in raid groups you dont really get to enjoy the story or it takes so much time to organize etc that it just isnt possible to be on that long or I get hungry, tired, bored before things even get going and end up feeling like WOW I dont ever want to do THAT again.

@"Rukia.4802" said:Strikes were never going to get people to raid. ANet are like a toddler in MMO-basics. An easy mode for casuals is the norm now but ANet didn't get the memo just like proper queue system for instances.

Its a shame because probably so few people actually see raids and they don't see it as a great return on investment. If they just implement a LFR then 90% of players will queue into it if all they have to do is press a button and do a couple ez mechanics and see the story. I bet the public option for strikes is very popular for example.

Then the content isn't "wasted" and THIS is what gets people to move onto pugging normal, heroic, etc. in WoW. Sure, most will probably stick to LFR which is fine, but you do get quite a few new raiders and in the end what does it matter if everyone gets to see the content you will still have your casuals and hardcores.

Strikes are so disconnected with raids its silly.

I actually think this is a good idea. That is I agree with both posts in that they are suggesting raids should be more enjoyable to people can experience the content. I mean, it really does seem like the worst possible use of development resources to put in so much time into content MOST of the player base (who pay for the game) NEVER see the content outside a youtube video. That is just shamefully bad design. I feel its bad design because they failed to make it accessible.

Now they are trying to make strikes as a stepping stone, but I think your idea makes a hell of allot more sense. I think raids should be easier to run to the point that everyone can faceroll through them like OpenWorld, Stories, etc. THEN make shorter strikes that are hard and have many different hard strikes for those who want new hard content. It would use less resources to keep the more demanding players happy and would allow more of the player base to enjoy the fun and pretty content that is hidden behind the Wall that is raiding.

TBH I think raids s it stands now was a large waste of resources and allot of delusional planning cause Im guessing Anet thought people would do them more which ignores how few people actually do T4s and CMs vs how many do fractals. Same thing. Fractals in general are accessible for average players to enjoy, but T4 and CM offers people more of a challenge. The difference is Strikes + Raids is BACKWARDS. Meaning, Raids should be the easy accessible content and Strikes should be the equivalent of T4s and CMs. You could have a variety of strikes with scaling difficulty or add instabilities as an option to raise the challenge even more. It seems like this kinda of change might actually give everyone more enjoyable content. That said, I'm sure some hard core raiding dudes will come tell me why this is wrong.

edit: Also the time factor. Pretty much every time I have tried to raid it becomes allot of waiting around then when you finally get the "correct 10 players" someone has to leave, then another, and this can drag out all because of the complexity of what is required to basically enjoy some neat content. So after a few times of wasting an entire evening or day waiting with thumb up you know what, I personally lost interest in the idea of raiding because it takes a long time and isn't designed to be fun. Also I have legendary armor already so really the only reason I wanted to raid was to experience the content, but its locked up in this fiasco so I for the moment moved on and just don't bother cause it isn't worth it at present.

From everything I've heard and read the raids in this game shouldn't be taking anyone 2 - 4 hours to complete, as far as I know, and someone can correct me if they want they're designed to be finished is a little as an hour(60 minutes and that isn't a speed run asfaik) up to 90 minutes(2 hours is pushing it from what I've heard through several sources). I'm not going to respond to the waiting around part because that sounds like you're trying to PUG it and that will take a lot of waiting around, best experience is through a guild that raids consistently or forming your own in-guild raid team. Obviously not everyone is going to experience the same thing, but I know that ArenaNet did not want the Raids in GW2 to be those long time commitments that you have in other MMO's. That being said, I still wouldn't do them even if they had a casual mode with reduced rewards, there's really no reason to do them for the story when I can just watch a video of the story/lore, that's the same as doing it myself only I didn't run through the content on my character.

Your response is nothing but a side line. It doesn't actually address what is stated as the issue. It doesn't agree or disagree, yet attempts to dismiss what was said.

What was said is basically, that most players don't and never will raid with the present raid system, yet most players WOULD like to experience the content and would enjoy it other than for all the reasons mentioned. Some posted suggestions I felt made sense. Specifically, I like the idea of making strikes much harder, and making raids much easier. I think its a stupid waste of resources for Anet to pour so much into Raid content when Most players will never use it. Rather, I think it would make allot more sense to have raid content much more accessible since its some of the best actual content in the game and is currently a waste. For those who want a good challenge, strikes seems like the logical format vs the raid content that presently takes up so much development and gives little to nothing for the average player.In other words, I see Anet using up so much development resources on raids that most players wont ever use a massive waste. I think should be obvious that this makes sense regardless of how long you think an experienced raid team takes. Its totally beside the point. I was just adding in why I myself don't raid. I don't raid because planning, prepping, training, and looking for 10 people of the right class, with the right gear, right build, right experience, ability to tie it all together and know all the mechanics IS SOMETHING MOST PLAYERS WILL NEVER DO SO ITS A WASTE OF RESOURCES! Again, that seems totally obvious and hard NOT to admit. Seems like you HAVE to be bias not to agree with that.

I replied to someone that said they didn't have the time to Raid, that is what that specific reply was in reference to, nothing more...when someone is not telling the truth about something it makes sense to repute that statement, which is all I did. Saying they take to long is disingenuous at best, unless you only have 15 - 30 minutes to play...and I don't want people with families and spouses to start whining. I had those too, and I still made time to game because I needed to relax and get away from the real world, it wasn't that difficult to juggle parenting and being a spouse alongside long playing sessions every single night..and now I'm going off on a tangent.

The assertion that raids take 15-30 is laughable. Nuff said.

The overall point of what I have said was in support of what others suggested. Nothing more. Specifically, I was agreeing with the idea that since raids have allot of great content that the majority of the player base would enjoy if the average player felt Raiding was more accessible while ALSO acknowledging that many endgame players want more challenging content and more new content. Since Strikes are less complicated BUT CAN be very challenging (Boneskinner) for raiders. I like the idea other players suggest. Specifically, that if raids where made easier more people could enjoy the content and maybe if strikes where made to fill the niche of highly challenging scalable content for demanding power gamer types that perhaps that would be a better balance and better use of resources. In other words, if raids where easy and strikes where hard, with challenge motes and instabilities as options for more challenge, the player base as a whole may gain much more from the same development time and efforts. Wouldn't that be nice!?!

I dont expect everyone to agree with this and said as much. However, the idea that this is somehow illogical is, well..., illogical. ;)

I didn't say they take 15 - 30 minutes, refer to the previous post where I said from what I've been told and heard they are designed to take anywhere from 1 Hour to 90 minutes, longer if you do all the lore things inside of them at the same time. That 15 - 30 minutes time frame was referring to how long a play session someone might be limited to. I don't care about Raids or Strikes, neither of those type of content interest me...I'm not the target audience, if I wanted to do Raids I would not want to do them at any other difficulty than what they were designed at...otherwise it might as well be just another open world zone as far as I'm concerned. I get that there's players that want to experience the content for themselves, but unless they reduce the rewards for an easier version then they shouldn't have tiered access. If you expect tiered access you had better expect to receive tiered rewards as well, do not expect to get the same rewards for easy mode as you get for normal mode or challenge mode. The SIDE stories that the Raids represent do not normally interest me, so much so I've never even watched Wooden Potatoes lore play through's where he covers all the lore tidbits inside. This is way off track from the OP's original post, which was stating that Strikes won't make him Raid, so be it, then he is not the target audience for Strike missions, just like I'm not part of that target audience, it's really that simple.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Linken.6345" said:It might also be that the li asking lfg take longer to fill and you dont see the quickly filled all welcome , some exp and chill etc squads.That's what was happening during the dungeons golden era. The result was that the general community started to think dungeons were filled with toxic players (which wasn;t really the case, as those were in a minority originally), which scared a lot of people away from the content.That's a valid concern about the strikes, by the way - i actually know quite a number of people that are staying away from strikes exactly because they see them as content filled with "elitists". Notice, that in this case the reality of the situation doesn;t really matter - it's the perception of that reality that is hurting strike participation among the more casual playerbase.Not that there aren't many other good reasons why casual playerbase for the most part stays away from strikes.

@"Super Hayes.6890" said:Never said it was the other players fault. Simply pointing out that for the average player like me this strike doesn't really bridge anything. Perhaps a way to make mechanics more obvious? All I'm saying is that if you do the strikes in order this one is just as difficult and unclear as it is if you start doing strikes with the boneskinner and totally skip the others. I don't feel like I've grown in skill by doing strikes and therefore am as useless as I was before in raids. High difficulty is fine but this is not a puzzle game. Explain the "how to" outright so I can practice getting good at it and become less of a burden to the other nine players.Basically, the strikes fail as a bridge to raids because, while they may try to incentivize you to play better, they do not teach you anything.

[Poormany.4507]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:I have avoided raids for the most part for a few reasons. They all seem pretty common. I think they are, therefore, arguably the real issue with raids and strikes.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:I've said it before and I'll say it again: Strikes are a cool concept but they make the mistake of implementing them backwards.

With raids you have way too much immersive design and resources going into a mode that ultimately is being played comptetively and thus will not really be played for the journey or to be experienced. So Strikes should not be an introduction to Raids, Raids should be an introduction to Strikes. Raids should be the journey and the experience. It should be where people go for an deeper extension of the experiences they gain on the open world maps. It should deliver the things that the maps may not be able to in terms of deeper PvE experience and storytelling. Strikes should be designed to be competetively challenging, so more Strikes can be put out to satiate the needs of the competetive PvE communities on shorter release cycles. They too could be closer tied to the maps but they should be their own competetive environment much more where focus is on challenging mechanics and bragging rights.

I realize that there is a substantial part of the GW2 community now that are not MMO-players and rather single-player type of players who have been seduced by the many years of focus on LS. However, in a broader perspective, this focus on LS has appearantly not served the company well. Their game ultimately is an MMO and excels as an MMO and that needs to be re-established for the game to have a future. Lately, it seemingly looks as if the company itself also has come to that realization with a return to replayability and good push-pull map design in the pipeline.

This discussion is in my eyes an extension of that. They should keep focusing on good map design first and foremost. They should put LS initiatives more onto maps and into raids. They should put competetive raid initiatives into strikes where the meat-and-potatoes boss is the focus and the focus is not the resource- or asset-demanding spice or garnish. The players who are annoyed over having to play with other players in this online world was never supposed to be the target demographic of a product like this. If you want to appease them, make a single player game. Having an MMO game where you prioritize single-player focus will not appease everyone, it will not suffieciently appease anyone and gives you marketing issues. If you want GW2 to stay healthy, focus on the social, competetive and cooperative multiplayer aspects it was designed around. That clearly was the working recipe.

^ One reason I WOULD want to raid is I would like to enjoy the story. However, in raid groups you dont really get to enjoy the story or it takes so much time to organize etc that it just isnt possible to be on that long or I get hungry, tired, bored before things even get going and end up feeling like WOW I dont ever want to do THAT again.

@"Rukia.4802" said:Strikes were never going to get people to raid. ANet are like a toddler in MMO-basics. An easy mode for casuals is the norm now but ANet didn't get the memo just like proper queue system for instances.

Its a shame because probably so few people actually see raids and they don't see it as a great return on investment. If they just implement a LFR then 90% of players will queue into it if all they have to do is press a button and do a couple ez mechanics and see the story. I bet the public option for strikes is very popular for example.

Then the content isn't "wasted" and THIS is what gets people to move onto pugging normal, heroic, etc. in WoW. Sure, most will probably stick to LFR which is fine, but you do get quite a few new raiders and in the end what does it matter if everyone gets to see the content you will still have your casuals and hardcores.

Strikes are so disconnected with raids its silly.

I actually think this is a good idea. That is I agree with both posts in that they are suggesting raids should be more enjoyable to people can experience the content. I mean, it really does seem like the worst possible use of development resources to put in so much time into content MOST of the player base (who pay for the game) NEVER see the content outside a youtube video. That is just shamefully bad design. I feel its bad design because they failed to make it accessible.

Now they are trying to make strikes as a stepping stone, but I think your idea makes a hell of allot more sense. I think raids should be easier to run to the point that everyone can faceroll through them like OpenWorld, Stories, etc. THEN make shorter strikes that are hard and have many different hard strikes for those who want new hard content. It would use less resources to keep the more demanding players happy and would allow more of the player base to enjoy the fun and pretty content that is hidden behind the Wall that is raiding.

TBH I think raids s it stands now was a large waste of resources and allot of delusional planning cause Im guessing Anet thought people would do them more which ignores how few people actually do T4s and CMs vs how many do fractals. Same thing. Fractals in general are accessible for average players to enjoy, but T4 and CM offers people more of a challenge. The difference is Strikes + Raids is BACKWARDS. Meaning, Raids should be the easy accessible content and Strikes should be the equivalent of T4s and CMs. You could have a variety of strikes with scaling difficulty or add instabilities as an option to raise the challenge even more. It seems like this kinda of change might actually give everyone more enjoyable content. That said, I'm sure some hard core raiding dudes will come tell me why this is wrong.

edit: Also the time factor. Pretty much every time I have tried to raid it becomes allot of waiting around then when you finally get the "correct 10 players" someone has to leave, then another, and this can drag out all because of the complexity of what is required to basically enjoy some neat content. So after a few times of wasting an entire evening or day waiting with thumb up you know what, I personally lost interest in the idea of raiding because it takes a long time and isn't designed to be fun. Also I have legendary armor already so really the only reason I wanted to raid was to experience the content, but its locked up in this fiasco so I for the moment moved on and just don't bother cause it isn't worth it at present.

From everything I've heard and read the raids in this game shouldn't be taking anyone 2 - 4 hours to complete, as far as I know, and someone can correct me if they want they're designed to be finished is a little as an hour(60 minutes and that isn't a speed run asfaik) up to 90 minutes(2 hours is pushing it from what I've heard through several sources). I'm not going to respond to the waiting around part because that sounds like you're trying to PUG it and that will take a lot of waiting around, best experience is through a guild that raids consistently or forming your own in-guild raid team. Obviously not everyone is going to experience the same thing, but I know that ArenaNet did not want the Raids in GW2 to be those long time commitments that you have in other MMO's. That being said, I still wouldn't do them even if they had a casual mode with reduced rewards, there's really no reason to do them for the story when I can just watch a video of the story/lore, that's the same as doing it myself only I didn't run through the content on my character.

Your response is nothing but a side line. It doesn't actually address what is stated as the issue. It doesn't agree or disagree, yet attempts to dismiss what was said.

What was said is basically, that most players don't and never will raid with the present raid system, yet most players WOULD like to experience the content and would enjoy it other than for all the reasons mentioned. Some posted suggestions I felt made sense. Specifically, I like the idea of making strikes much harder, and making raids much easier. I think its a stupid waste of resources for Anet to pour so much into Raid content when Most players will never use it. Rather, I think it would make allot more sense to have raid content much more accessible since its some of the best actual content in the game and is currently a waste. For those who want a good challenge, strikes seems like the logical format vs the raid content that presently takes up so much development and gives little to nothing for the average player.In other words, I see Anet using up so much development resources on raids that most players wont ever use a massive waste. I think should be obvious that this makes sense regardless of how long you think an experienced raid team takes. Its totally beside the point. I was just adding in why I myself don't raid. I don't raid because planning, prepping, training, and looking for 10 people of the right class, with the right gear, right build, right experience, ability to tie it all together and know all the mechanics IS SOMETHING MOST PLAYERS WILL NEVER DO SO ITS A WASTE OF RESOURCES! Again, that seems totally obvious and hard NOT to admit. Seems like you HAVE to be bias not to agree with that.

I replied to someone that said they didn't have the time to Raid, that is what that specific reply was in reference to, nothing more...when someone is not telling the truth about something it makes sense to repute that statement, which is all I did. Saying they take to long is disingenuous at best, unless you only have 15 - 30 minutes to play...and I don't want people with families and spouses to start whining. I had those too, and I still made time to game because I needed to relax and get away from the real world, it wasn't that difficult to juggle parenting and being a spouse alongside long playing sessions every single night..and now I'm going off on a tangent.

The assertion that raids take 15-30 is laughable. Nuff said.

The overall point of what I have said was in support of what others suggested. Nothing more. Specifically, I was agreeing with the idea that since raids have allot of great content that the majority of the player base would enjoy if the average player felt Raiding was more accessible while ALSO acknowledging that many endgame players want more challenging content and more new content. Since Strikes are less complicated BUT CAN be very challenging (boneskinner) for raiders. I like the idea other players suggest. Specifically, that if raids where made easier more people could enjoy the content and maybe if strikes where made to fill the niche of highly challenging scalable content for demanding power gamer types that perhaps that would be a better balance and better use of resources. In other words, if raids where easy and strikes where hard, with challenge motes and instabilities as options for more challenge, the player base as a whole may gain much more from the same development time and efforts. Wouldn't that be nice!?!

I dont expect everyone to agree with this and said as much. However, the idea that this is somehow illogical is, well..., illogical. ;)

I disagree that making raids easier and strikes harder would help. I feel like that would just cause most of the players doing strikes to switch to raids, if they're made easy enough, and if not, just quit both entirely, wasting even more dev time and resources. Many, if not most, players already seem to struggle with apparently simple mechanics in strikes (Such as harpooning the boss in the most recent strike) and would almost certainly be uncomfortable doing any kind of advanced build/DPS/rotation type stuff needed for raids or more difficult strikes (I know I would be). I agree with the posters requesting a difficulty level system, in which the more difficult setting gives far better rewards, but casuals, such as myself, can still experience story and exploration content in the easier version. That way both hardcore and casual players get what they want, and no resources are wasted on content only a small minority of playerbase does (i.e. current raids).

[Moradorin.6217]

@Poormany.4507 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:I have avoided raids for the most part for a few reasons. They all seem pretty common. I think they are, therefore, arguably the real issue with raids and strikes.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:I've said it before and I'll say it again: Strikes are a cool concept but they make the mistake of implementing them backwards.

With raids you have way too much immersive design and resources going into a mode that ultimately is being played comptetively and thus will not really be played for the journey or to be experienced. So Strikes should not be an introduction to Raids, Raids should be an introduction to Strikes. Raids should be the journey and the experience. It should be where people go for an deeper extension of the experiences they gain on the open world maps. It should deliver the things that the maps may not be able to in terms of deeper PvE experience and storytelling. Strikes should be designed to be competetively challenging, so more Strikes can be put out to satiate the needs of the competetive PvE communities on shorter release cycles. They too could be closer tied to the maps but they should be their own competetive environment much more where focus is on challenging mechanics and bragging rights.

I realize that there is a substantial part of the GW2 community now that are not MMO-players and rather single-player type of players who have been seduced by the many years of focus on LS. However, in a broader perspective, this focus on LS has appearantly not served the company well. Their game ultimately is an MMO and excels as an MMO and that needs to be re-established for the game to have a future. Lately, it seemingly looks as if the company itself also has come to that realization with a return to replayability and good push-pull map design in the pipeline.

This discussion is in my eyes an extension of that. They should keep focusing on good map design first and foremost. They should put LS initiatives more onto maps and into raids. They should put competetive raid initiatives into strikes where the meat-and-potatoes boss is the focus and the focus is not the resource- or asset-demanding spice or garnish. The players who are annoyed over having to play with other players in this online world was never supposed to be the target demographic of a product like this. If you want to appease them, make a single player game. Having an MMO game where you prioritize single-player focus will not appease everyone, it will not suffieciently appease anyone and gives you marketing issues. If you want GW2 to stay healthy, focus on the social, competetive and cooperative multiplayer aspects it was designed around. That clearly was the working recipe.

^ One reason I WOULD want to raid is I would like to enjoy the story. However, in raid groups you dont really get to enjoy the story or it takes so much time to organize etc that it just isnt possible to be on that long or I get hungry, tired, bored before things even get going and end up feeling like WOW I dont ever want to do THAT again.

@"Rukia.4802" said:Strikes were never going to get people to raid. ANet are like a toddler in MMO-basics. An easy mode for casuals is the norm now but ANet didn't get the memo just like proper queue system for instances.

Its a shame because probably so few people actually see raids and they don't see it as a great return on investment. If they just implement a LFR then 90% of players will queue into it if all they have to do is press a button and do a couple ez mechanics and see the story. I bet the public option for strikes is very popular for example.

Then the content isn't "wasted" and THIS is what gets people to move onto pugging normal, heroic, etc. in WoW. Sure, most will probably stick to LFR which is fine, but you do get quite a few new raiders and in the end what does it matter if everyone gets to see the content you will still have your casuals and hardcores.

Strikes are so disconnected with raids its silly.

I actually think this is a good idea. That is I agree with both posts in that they are suggesting raids should be more enjoyable to people can experience the content. I mean, it really does seem like the worst possible use of development resources to put in so much time into content MOST of the player base (who pay for the game) NEVER see the content outside a youtube video. That is just shamefully bad design. I feel its bad design because they failed to make it accessible.

Now they are trying to make strikes as a stepping stone, but I think your idea makes a hell of allot more sense. I think raids should be easier to run to the point that everyone can faceroll through them like OpenWorld, Stories, etc. THEN make shorter strikes that are hard and have many different hard strikes for those who want new hard content. It would use less resources to keep the more demanding players happy and would allow more of the player base to enjoy the fun and pretty content that is hidden behind the Wall that is raiding.

TBH I think raids s it stands now was a large waste of resources and allot of delusional planning cause Im guessing Anet thought people would do them more which ignores how few people actually do T4s and CMs vs how many do fractals. Same thing. Fractals in general are accessible for average players to enjoy, but T4 and CM offers people more of a challenge. The difference is Strikes + Raids is BACKWARDS. Meaning, Raids should be the easy accessible content and Strikes should be the equivalent of T4s and CMs. You could have a variety of strikes with scaling difficulty or add instabilities as an option to raise the challenge even more. It seems like this kinda of change might actually give everyone more enjoyable content. That said, I'm sure some hard core raiding dudes will come tell me why this is wrong.

edit: Also the time factor. Pretty much every time I have tried to raid it becomes allot of waiting around then when you finally get the "correct 10 players" someone has to leave, then another, and this can drag out all because of the complexity of what is required to basically enjoy some neat content. So after a few times of wasting an entire evening or day waiting with thumb up you know what, I personally lost interest in the idea of raiding because it takes a long time and isn't designed to be fun. Also I have legendary armor already so really the only reason I wanted to raid was to experience the content, but its locked up in this fiasco so I for the moment moved on and just don't bother cause it isn't worth it at present.

From everything I've heard and read the raids in this game shouldn't be taking anyone 2 - 4 hours to complete, as far as I know, and someone can correct me if they want they're designed to be finished is a little as an hour(60 minutes and that isn't a speed run asfaik) up to 90 minutes(2 hours is pushing it from what I've heard through several sources). I'm not going to respond to the waiting around part because that sounds like you're trying to PUG it and that will take a lot of waiting around, best experience is through a guild that raids consistently or forming your own in-guild raid team. Obviously not everyone is going to experience the same thing, but I know that ArenaNet did not want the Raids in GW2 to be those long time commitments that you have in other MMO's. That being said, I still wouldn't do them even if they had a casual mode with reduced rewards, there's really no reason to do them for the story when I can just watch a video of the story/lore, that's the same as doing it myself only I didn't run through the content on my character.

Your response is nothing but a side line. It doesn't actually address what is stated as the issue. It doesn't agree or disagree, yet attempts to dismiss what was said.

What was said is basically, that most players don't and never will raid with the present raid system, yet most players WOULD like to experience the content and would enjoy it other than for all the reasons mentioned. Some posted suggestions I felt made sense. Specifically, I like the idea of making strikes much harder, and making raids much easier. I think its a stupid waste of resources for Anet to pour so much into Raid content when Most players will never use it. Rather, I think it would make allot more sense to have raid content much more accessible since its some of the best actual content in the game and is currently a waste. For those who want a good challenge, strikes seems like the logical format vs the raid content that presently takes up so much development and gives little to nothing for the average player.In other words, I see Anet using up so much development resources on raids that most players wont ever use a massive waste. I think should be obvious that this makes sense regardless of how long you think an experienced raid team takes. Its totally beside the point. I was just adding in why I myself don't raid. I don't raid because planning, prepping, training, and looking for 10 people of the right class, with the right gear, right build, right experience, ability to tie it all together and know all the mechanics IS SOMETHING MOST PLAYERS WILL NEVER DO SO ITS A WASTE OF RESOURCES! Again, that seems totally obvious and hard NOT to admit. Seems like you HAVE to be bias not to agree with that.

I replied to someone that said they didn't have the time to Raid, that is what that specific reply was in reference to, nothing more...when someone is not telling the truth about something it makes sense to repute that statement, which is all I did. Saying they take to long is disingenuous at best, unless you only have 15 - 30 minutes to play...and I don't want people with families and spouses to start whining. I had those too, and I still made time to game because I needed to relax and get away from the real world, it wasn't that difficult to juggle parenting and being a spouse alongside long playing sessions every single night..and now I'm going off on a tangent.

The assertion that raids take 15-30 is laughable. Nuff said.

The overall point of what I have said was in support of what others suggested. Nothing more. Specifically, I was agreeing with the idea that since raids have allot of great content that the majority of the player base would enjoy if the average player felt Raiding was more accessible while ALSO acknowledging that many endgame players want more challenging content and more new content. Since Strikes are less complicated BUT CAN be very challenging (boneskinner) for raiders. I like the idea other players suggest. Specifically, that if raids where made easier more people could enjoy the content and maybe if strikes where made to fill the niche of highly challenging scalable content for demanding power gamer types that perhaps that would be a better balance and better use of resources. In other words, if raids where easy and strikes where hard, with challenge motes and instabilities as options for more challenge, the player base as a whole may gain much more from the same development time and efforts. Wouldn't that be nice!?!

I dont expect everyone to agree with this and said as much. However, the idea that this is somehow illogical is, well..., illogical. ;)

I disagree that making raids easier and strikes harder would help. I feel like that would just cause most of the players doing strikes to switch to raids, if they're made easy enough, and if not, just quit both entirely, wasting even more dev time and resources. Many, if not most, players already seem to struggle with apparently simple mechanics in strikes (Such as harpooning the boss in the most recent strike) and would almost certainly be uncomfortable doing any kind of advanced build/DPS/rotation type stuff needed for raids or more difficult strikes (I know I would be). I agree with the posters requesting a difficulty level system, in which the more difficult setting gives far better rewards, but casuals, such as myself, can still experience story and exploration content in the easier version. That way both hardcore and casual players get what they want, and no resources are wasted on content only a small minority of playerbase does (i.e. current raids).

Sure, I think that is also a workable solution. It sounds like we both want the same thing. That is, more people able to use the game mode, while also preserving the ability for people to find challenging and rewarding content. I personally spend most of my time in competitive modes rather than PvE modes anyway. I am really just trying to throw my 2cp into the topic because I organize events for my guild and I know from experience it can be pretty hard to get people to commit to doing raids or strikes. For me, ideas that would get more people enjoying these modes would give us all more to do as a group that could include more of the guild. I like that idea. I also agree that rewards shouldn't be the same in raids if they became much easier or harder and same for strikes. A scaling system like fractals has could work too I suppose. The thing Im sure of is that right now allot of the player base doesn't raid but does seem to like the look of the content and such. I think most everyone would like to see more people using the content.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Poormany.4507 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:I have avoided raids for the most part for a few reasons. They all seem pretty common. I think they are, therefore, arguably the real issue with raids and strikes.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:I've said it before and I'll say it again: Strikes are a cool concept but they make the mistake of implementing them backwards.

With raids you have way too much immersive design and resources going into a mode that ultimately is being played comptetively and thus will not really be played for the journey or to be experienced. So Strikes should not be an introduction to Raids, Raids should be an introduction to Strikes. Raids should be the journey and the experience. It should be where people go for an deeper extension of the experiences they gain on the open world maps. It should deliver the things that the maps may not be able to in terms of deeper PvE experience and storytelling. Strikes should be designed to be competetively challenging, so more Strikes can be put out to satiate the needs of the competetive PvE communities on shorter release cycles. They too could be closer tied to the maps but they should be their own competetive environment much more where focus is on challenging mechanics and bragging rights.

I realize that there is a substantial part of the GW2 community now that are not MMO-players and rather single-player type of players who have been seduced by the many years of focus on LS. However, in a broader perspective, this focus on LS has appearantly not served the company well. Their game ultimately is an MMO and excels as an MMO and that needs to be re-established for the game to have a future. Lately, it seemingly looks as if the company itself also has come to that realization with a return to replayability and good push-pull map design in the pipeline.

This discussion is in my eyes an extension of that. They should keep focusing on good map design first and foremost. They should put LS initiatives more onto maps and into raids. They should put competetive raid initiatives into strikes where the meat-and-potatoes boss is the focus and the focus is not the resource- or asset-demanding spice or garnish. The players who are annoyed over having to play with other players in this online world was never supposed to be the target demographic of a product like this. If you want to appease them, make a single player game. Having an MMO game where you prioritize single-player focus will not appease everyone, it will not suffieciently appease anyone and gives you marketing issues. If you want GW2 to stay healthy, focus on the social, competetive and cooperative multiplayer aspects it was designed around. That clearly was the working recipe.

^ One reason I WOULD want to raid is I would like to enjoy the story. However, in raid groups you dont really get to enjoy the story or it takes so much time to organize etc that it just isnt possible to be on that long or I get hungry, tired, bored before things even get going and end up feeling like WOW I dont ever want to do THAT again.

@"Rukia.4802" said:Strikes were never going to get people to raid. ANet are like a toddler in MMO-basics. An easy mode for casuals is the norm now but ANet didn't get the memo just like proper queue system for instances.

Its a shame because probably so few people actually see raids and they don't see it as a great return on investment. If they just implement a LFR then 90% of players will queue into it if all they have to do is press a button and do a couple ez mechanics and see the story. I bet the public option for strikes is very popular for example.

Then the content isn't "wasted" and THIS is what gets people to move onto pugging normal, heroic, etc. in WoW. Sure, most will probably stick to LFR which is fine, but you do get quite a few new raiders and in the end what does it matter if everyone gets to see the content you will still have your casuals and hardcores.

Strikes are so disconnected with raids its silly.

I actually think this is a good idea. That is I agree with both posts in that they are suggesting raids should be more enjoyable to people can experience the content. I mean, it really does seem like the worst possible use of development resources to put in so much time into content MOST of the player base (who pay for the game) NEVER see the content outside a youtube video. That is just shamefully bad design. I feel its bad design because they failed to make it accessible.

Now they are trying to make strikes as a stepping stone, but I think your idea makes a hell of allot more sense. I think raids should be easier to run to the point that everyone can faceroll through them like OpenWorld, Stories, etc. THEN make shorter strikes that are hard and have many different hard strikes for those who want new hard content. It would use less resources to keep the more demanding players happy and would allow more of the player base to enjoy the fun and pretty content that is hidden behind the Wall that is raiding.

TBH I think raids s it stands now was a large waste of resources and allot of delusional planning cause Im guessing Anet thought people would do them more which ignores how few people actually do T4s and CMs vs how many do fractals. Same thing. Fractals in general are accessible for average players to enjoy, but T4 and CM offers people more of a challenge. The difference is Strikes + Raids is BACKWARDS. Meaning, Raids should be the easy accessible content and Strikes should be the equivalent of T4s and CMs. You could have a variety of strikes with scaling difficulty or add instabilities as an option to raise the challenge even more. It seems like this kinda of change might actually give everyone more enjoyable content. That said, I'm sure some hard core raiding dudes will come tell me why this is wrong.

edit: Also the time factor. Pretty much every time I have tried to raid it becomes allot of waiting around then when you finally get the "correct 10 players" someone has to leave, then another, and this can drag out all because of the complexity of what is required to basically enjoy some neat content. So after a few times of wasting an entire evening or day waiting with thumb up you know what, I personally lost interest in the idea of raiding because it takes a long time and isn't designed to be fun. Also I have legendary armor already so really the only reason I wanted to raid was to experience the content, but its locked up in this fiasco so I for the moment moved on and just don't bother cause it isn't worth it at present.

From everything I've heard and read the raids in this game shouldn't be taking anyone 2 - 4 hours to complete, as far as I know, and someone can correct me if they want they're designed to be finished is a little as an hour(60 minutes and that isn't a speed run asfaik) up to 90 minutes(2 hours is pushing it from what I've heard through several sources). I'm not going to respond to the waiting around part because that sounds like you're trying to PUG it and that will take a lot of waiting around, best experience is through a guild that raids consistently or forming your own in-guild raid team. Obviously not everyone is going to experience the same thing, but I know that ArenaNet did not want the Raids in GW2 to be those long time commitments that you have in other MMO's. That being said, I still wouldn't do them even if they had a casual mode with reduced rewards, there's really no reason to do them for the story when I can just watch a video of the story/lore, that's the same as doing it myself only I didn't run through the content on my character.

Your response is nothing but a side line. It doesn't actually address what is stated as the issue. It doesn't agree or disagree, yet attempts to dismiss what was said.

What was said is basically, that most players don't and never will raid with the present raid system, yet most players WOULD like to experience the content and would enjoy it other than for all the reasons mentioned. Some posted suggestions I felt made sense. Specifically, I like the idea of making strikes much harder, and making raids much easier. I think its a stupid waste of resources for Anet to pour so much into Raid content when Most players will never use it. Rather, I think it would make allot more sense to have raid content much more accessible since its some of the best actual content in the game and is currently a waste. For those who want a good challenge, strikes seems like the logical format vs the raid content that presently takes up so much development and gives little to nothing for the average player.In other words, I see Anet using up so much development resources on raids that most players wont ever use a massive waste. I think should be obvious that this makes sense regardless of how long you think an experienced raid team takes. Its totally beside the point. I was just adding in why I myself don't raid. I don't raid because planning, prepping, training, and looking for 10 people of the right class, with the right gear, right build, right experience, ability to tie it all together and know all the mechanics IS SOMETHING MOST PLAYERS WILL NEVER DO SO ITS A WASTE OF RESOURCES! Again, that seems totally obvious and hard NOT to admit. Seems like you HAVE to be bias not to agree with that.

I replied to someone that said they didn't have the time to Raid, that is what that specific reply was in reference to, nothing more...when someone is not telling the truth about something it makes sense to repute that statement, which is all I did. Saying they take to long is disingenuous at best, unless you only have 15 - 30 minutes to play...and I don't want people with families and spouses to start whining. I had those too, and I still made time to game because I needed to relax and get away from the real world, it wasn't that difficult to juggle parenting and being a spouse alongside long playing sessions every single night..and now I'm going off on a tangent.

The assertion that raids take 15-30 is laughable. Nuff said.

The overall point of what I have said was in support of what others suggested. Nothing more. Specifically, I was agreeing with the idea that since raids have allot of great content that the majority of the player base would enjoy if the average player felt Raiding was more accessible while ALSO acknowledging that many endgame players want more challenging content and more new content. Since Strikes are less complicated BUT CAN be very challenging (boneskinner) for raiders. I like the idea other players suggest. Specifically, that if raids where made easier more people could enjoy the content and maybe if strikes where made to fill the niche of highly challenging scalable content for demanding power gamer types that perhaps that would be a better balance and better use of resources. In other words, if raids where easy and strikes where hard, with challenge motes and instabilities as options for more challenge, the player base as a whole may gain much more from the same development time and efforts. Wouldn't that be nice!?!

I dont expect everyone to agree with this and said as much. However, the idea that this is somehow illogical is, well..., illogical. ;)

I disagree that making raids easier and strikes harder would help. I feel like that would just cause most of the players doing strikes to switch to raids, if they're made easy enough, and if not, just quit both entirely, wasting even more dev time and resources. Many, if not most, players already seem to struggle with apparently simple mechanics in strikes (Such as harpooning the boss in the most recent strike) and would almost certainly be uncomfortable doing any kind of advanced build/DPS/rotation type stuff needed for raids or more difficult strikes (I know I would be). I agree with the posters requesting a difficulty level system, in which the more difficult setting gives far better rewards, but casuals, such as myself, can still experience story and exploration content in the easier version. That way both hardcore and casual players get what they want, and no resources are wasted on content only a small minority of playerbase does (i.e. current raids).

Sure, I think that is also a workable solution. It sounds like we both want the same thing. That is, more people able to use the game mode, while also preserving the ability for people to find challenging and rewarding content. I personally spend most of my time in competitive modes rather than PvE modes anyway. I am really just trying to throw my 2cp into the topic because I organize events for my guild and I know from experience it can be pretty hard to get people to commit to doing raids or strikes. For me, ideas that would get more people enjoying these modes would give us all more to do as a group that could include more of the guild. I like that idea. I also agree that rewards shouldn't be the same in raids if they became much easier or harder and same for strikes. A scaling system like fractals has could work too I suppose. The thing Im sure of is that right now allot of the player base doesn't raid but does seem to like the look of the content and such. I think most everyone would like to see more people using the content.

scaling system or different level is the only answer really. people are talking about strikes bridging the gap between Strikes and Raids, but this fundamentally misses the point, 'casual players' are just players that choose not to raid at this moment in time because the style of instanced content does not appeal. its got nothing to do with skill or loot and everything to do with game play choices and what they see as fun. For e.g raids require certain builds, raids require you to wipe and learn. those 2 points alone which are perfectly valid aspects of raid game play is a big put-off for many casual players, especially in a game designed around build freedom and experimentation.

[Moradorin.6217]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Poormany.4507 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:I have avoided raids for the most part for a few reasons. They all seem pretty common. I think they are, therefore, arguably the real issue with raids and strikes.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:I've said it before and I'll say it again: Strikes are a cool concept but they make the mistake of implementing them backwards.

With raids you have way too much immersive design and resources going into a mode that ultimately is being played comptetively and thus will not really be played for the journey or to be experienced. So Strikes should not be an introduction to Raids, Raids should be an introduction to Strikes. Raids should be the journey and the experience. It should be where people go for an deeper extension of the experiences they gain on the open world maps. It should deliver the things that the maps may not be able to in terms of deeper PvE experience and storytelling. Strikes should be designed to be competetively challenging, so more Strikes can be put out to satiate the needs of the competetive PvE communities on shorter release cycles. They too could be closer tied to the maps but they should be their own competetive environment much more where focus is on challenging mechanics and bragging rights.

I realize that there is a substantial part of the GW2 community now that are not MMO-players and rather single-player type of players who have been seduced by the many years of focus on LS. However, in a broader perspective, this focus on LS has appearantly not served the company well. Their game ultimately is an MMO and excels as an MMO and that needs to be re-established for the game to have a future. Lately, it seemingly looks as if the company itself also has come to that realization with a return to replayability and good push-pull map design in the pipeline.

This discussion is in my eyes an extension of that. They should keep focusing on good map design first and foremost. They should put LS initiatives more onto maps and into raids. They should put competetive raid initiatives into strikes where the meat-and-potatoes boss is the focus and the focus is not the resource- or asset-demanding spice or garnish. The players who are annoyed over having to play with other players in this online world was never supposed to be the target demographic of a product like this. If you want to appease them, make a single player game. Having an MMO game where you prioritize single-player focus will not appease everyone, it will not suffieciently appease anyone and gives you marketing issues. If you want GW2 to stay healthy, focus on the social, competetive and cooperative multiplayer aspects it was designed around. That clearly was the working recipe.

^ One reason I WOULD want to raid is I would like to enjoy the story. However, in raid groups you dont really get to enjoy the story or it takes so much time to organize etc that it just isnt possible to be on that long or I get hungry, tired, bored before things even get going and end up feeling like WOW I dont ever want to do THAT again.

@"Rukia.4802" said:Strikes were never going to get people to raid. ANet are like a toddler in MMO-basics. An easy mode for casuals is the norm now but ANet didn't get the memo just like proper queue system for instances.

Its a shame because probably so few people actually see raids and they don't see it as a great return on investment. If they just implement a LFR then 90% of players will queue into it if all they have to do is press a button and do a couple ez mechanics and see the story. I bet the public option for strikes is very popular for example.

Then the content isn't "wasted" and THIS is what gets people to move onto pugging normal, heroic, etc. in WoW. Sure, most will probably stick to LFR which is fine, but you do get quite a few new raiders and in the end what does it matter if everyone gets to see the content you will still have your casuals and hardcores.

Strikes are so disconnected with raids its silly.

I actually think this is a good idea. That is I agree with both posts in that they are suggesting raids should be more enjoyable to people can experience the content. I mean, it really does seem like the worst possible use of development resources to put in so much time into content MOST of the player base (who pay for the game) NEVER see the content outside a youtube video. That is just shamefully bad design. I feel its bad design because they failed to make it accessible.

Now they are trying to make strikes as a stepping stone, but I think your idea makes a hell of allot more sense. I think raids should be easier to run to the point that everyone can faceroll through them like OpenWorld, Stories, etc. THEN make shorter strikes that are hard and have many different hard strikes for those who want new hard content. It would use less resources to keep the more demanding players happy and would allow more of the player base to enjoy the fun and pretty content that is hidden behind the Wall that is raiding.

TBH I think raids s it stands now was a large waste of resources and allot of delusional planning cause Im guessing Anet thought people would do them more which ignores how few people actually do T4s and CMs vs how many do fractals. Same thing. Fractals in general are accessible for average players to enjoy, but T4 and CM offers people more of a challenge. The difference is Strikes + Raids is BACKWARDS. Meaning, Raids should be the easy accessible content and Strikes should be the equivalent of T4s and CMs. You could have a variety of strikes with scaling difficulty or add instabilities as an option to raise the challenge even more. It seems like this kinda of change might actually give everyone more enjoyable content. That said, I'm sure some hard core raiding dudes will come tell me why this is wrong.

edit: Also the time factor. Pretty much every time I have tried to raid it becomes allot of waiting around then when you finally get the "correct 10 players" someone has to leave, then another, and this can drag out all because of the complexity of what is required to basically enjoy some neat content. So after a few times of wasting an entire evening or day waiting with thumb up you know what, I personally lost interest in the idea of raiding because it takes a long time and isn't designed to be fun. Also I have legendary armor already so really the only reason I wanted to raid was to experience the content, but its locked up in this fiasco so I for the moment moved on and just don't bother cause it isn't worth it at present.

From everything I've heard and read the raids in this game shouldn't be taking anyone 2 - 4 hours to complete, as far as I know, and someone can correct me if they want they're designed to be finished is a little as an hour(60 minutes and that isn't a speed run asfaik) up to 90 minutes(2 hours is pushing it from what I've heard through several sources). I'm not going to respond to the waiting around part because that sounds like you're trying to PUG it and that will take a lot of waiting around, best experience is through a guild that raids consistently or forming your own in-guild raid team. Obviously not everyone is going to experience the same thing, but I know that ArenaNet did not want the Raids in GW2 to be those long time commitments that you have in other MMO's. That being said, I still wouldn't do them even if they had a casual mode with reduced rewards, there's really no reason to do them for the story when I can just watch a video of the story/lore, that's the same as doing it myself only I didn't run through the content on my character.

Your response is nothing but a side line. It doesn't actually address what is stated as the issue. It doesn't agree or disagree, yet attempts to dismiss what was said.

What was said is basically, that most players don't and never will raid with the present raid system, yet most players WOULD like to experience the content and would enjoy it other than for all the reasons mentioned. Some posted suggestions I felt made sense. Specifically, I like the idea of making strikes much harder, and making raids much easier. I think its a stupid waste of resources for Anet to pour so much into Raid content when Most players will never use it. Rather, I think it would make allot more sense to have raid content much more accessible since its some of the best actual content in the game and is currently a waste. For those who want a good challenge, strikes seems like the logical format vs the raid content that presently takes up so much development and gives little to nothing for the average player.In other words, I see Anet using up so much development resources on raids that most players wont ever use a massive waste. I think should be obvious that this makes sense regardless of how long you think an experienced raid team takes. Its totally beside the point. I was just adding in why I myself don't raid. I don't raid because planning, prepping, training, and looking for 10 people of the right class, with the right gear, right build, right experience, ability to tie it all together and know all the mechanics IS SOMETHING MOST PLAYERS WILL NEVER DO SO ITS A WASTE OF RESOURCES! Again, that seems totally obvious and hard NOT to admit. Seems like you HAVE to be bias not to agree with that.

I replied to someone that said they didn't have the time to Raid, that is what that specific reply was in reference to, nothing more...when someone is not telling the truth about something it makes sense to repute that statement, which is all I did. Saying they take to long is disingenuous at best, unless you only have 15 - 30 minutes to play...and I don't want people with families and spouses to start whining. I had those too, and I still made time to game because I needed to relax and get away from the real world, it wasn't that difficult to juggle parenting and being a spouse alongside long playing sessions every single night..and now I'm going off on a tangent.

The assertion that raids take 15-30 is laughable. Nuff said.

The overall point of what I have said was in support of what others suggested. Nothing more. Specifically, I was agreeing with the idea that since raids have allot of great content that the majority of the player base would enjoy if the average player felt Raiding was more accessible while ALSO acknowledging that many endgame players want more challenging content and more new content. Since Strikes are less complicated BUT CAN be very challenging (boneskinner) for raiders. I like the idea other players suggest. Specifically, that if raids where made easier more people could enjoy the content and maybe if strikes where made to fill the niche of highly challenging scalable content for demanding power gamer types that perhaps that would be a better balance and better use of resources. In other words, if raids where easy and strikes where hard, with challenge motes and instabilities as options for more challenge, the player base as a whole may gain much more from the same development time and efforts. Wouldn't that be nice!?!

I dont expect everyone to agree with this and said as much. However, the idea that this is somehow illogical is, well..., illogical. ;)

I disagree that making raids easier and strikes harder would help. I feel like that would just cause most of the players doing strikes to switch to raids, if they're made easy enough, and if not, just quit both entirely, wasting even more dev time and resources. Many, if not most, players already seem to struggle with apparently simple mechanics in strikes (Such as harpooning the boss in the most recent strike) and would almost certainly be uncomfortable doing any kind of advanced build/DPS/rotation type stuff needed for raids or more difficult strikes (I know I would be). I agree with the posters requesting a difficulty level system, in which the more difficult setting gives far better rewards, but casuals, such as myself, can still experience story and exploration content in the easier version. That way both hardcore and casual players get what they want, and no resources are wasted on content only a small minority of playerbase does (i.e. current raids).

Sure, I think that is also a workable solution. It sounds like we both want the same thing. That is, more people able to use the game mode, while also preserving the ability for people to find challenging and rewarding content. I personally spend most of my time in competitive modes rather than PvE modes anyway. I am really just trying to throw my 2cp into the topic because I organize events for my guild and I know from experience it can be pretty hard to get people to commit to doing raids or strikes. For me, ideas that would get more people enjoying these modes would give us all more to do as a group that could include more of the guild. I like that idea. I also agree that rewards shouldn't be the same in raids if they became much easier or harder and same for strikes. A scaling system like fractals has could work too I suppose. The thing Im sure of is that right now allot of the player base doesn't raid but does seem to like the look of the content and such. I think most everyone would like to see more people using the content.

scaling system or different level is the only answer really. people are talking about strikes bridging the gap between Strikes and Raids, but this fundamentally misses the point, 'casual players' are just players that choose not to raid at this moment in time because the style of instanced content does not appeal. its got nothing to do with skill or loot and everything to do with game play choices and what they see as fun. For e.g raids require certain builds, raids require you to wipe and learn. those 2 points alone which are perfectly valid aspects of raid game play is a big put-off for many casual players, especially in a game designed around build freedom and experimentation.

Sure I that all makes sense. I know things like wipe and learn is an issue in strikes and raids. People tend to give up after one or two attempts on a new encounter which means the other remaining need to look for more or do with less than 10. Then u know things can either go well after that or people can just drop off more if replacements arent found quickly. Not always but its pretty common and it can detract from the fun factor.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Poormany.4507 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:I have avoided raids for the most part for a few reasons. They all seem pretty common. I think they are, therefore, arguably the real issue with raids and strikes.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:I've said it before and I'll say it again: Strikes are a cool concept but they make the mistake of implementing them backwards.

With raids you have way too much immersive design and resources going into a mode that ultimately is being played comptetively and thus will not really be played for the journey or to be experienced. So Strikes should not be an introduction to Raids, Raids should be an introduction to Strikes. Raids should be the journey and the experience. It should be where people go for an deeper extension of the experiences they gain on the open world maps. It should deliver the things that the maps may not be able to in terms of deeper PvE experience and storytelling. Strikes should be designed to be competetively challenging, so more Strikes can be put out to satiate the needs of the competetive PvE communities on shorter release cycles. They too could be closer tied to the maps but they should be their own competetive environment much more where focus is on challenging mechanics and bragging rights.

I realize that there is a substantial part of the GW2 community now that are not MMO-players and rather single-player type of players who have been seduced by the many years of focus on LS. However, in a broader perspective, this focus on LS has appearantly not served the company well. Their game ultimately is an MMO and excels as an MMO and that needs to be re-established for the game to have a future. Lately, it seemingly looks as if the company itself also has come to that realization with a return to replayability and good push-pull map design in the pipeline.

This discussion is in my eyes an extension of that. They should keep focusing on good map design first and foremost. They should put LS initiatives more onto maps and into raids. They should put competetive raid initiatives into strikes where the meat-and-potatoes boss is the focus and the focus is not the resource- or asset-demanding spice or garnish. The players who are annoyed over having to play with other players in this online world was never supposed to be the target demographic of a product like this. If you want to appease them, make a single player game. Having an MMO game where you prioritize single-player focus will not appease everyone, it will not suffieciently appease anyone and gives you marketing issues. If you want GW2 to stay healthy, focus on the social, competetive and cooperative multiplayer aspects it was designed around. That clearly was the working recipe.

^ One reason I WOULD want to raid is I would like to enjoy the story. However, in raid groups you dont really get to enjoy the story or it takes so much time to organize etc that it just isnt possible to be on that long or I get hungry, tired, bored before things even get going and end up feeling like WOW I dont ever want to do THAT again.

@"Rukia.4802" said:Strikes were never going to get people to raid. ANet are like a toddler in MMO-basics. An easy mode for casuals is the norm now but ANet didn't get the memo just like proper queue system for instances.

Its a shame because probably so few people actually see raids and they don't see it as a great return on investment. If they just implement a LFR then 90% of players will queue into it if all they have to do is press a button and do a couple ez mechanics and see the story. I bet the public option for strikes is very popular for example.

Then the content isn't "wasted" and THIS is what gets people to move onto pugging normal, heroic, etc. in WoW. Sure, most will probably stick to LFR which is fine, but you do get quite a few new raiders and in the end what does it matter if everyone gets to see the content you will still have your casuals and hardcores.

Strikes are so disconnected with raids its silly.

I actually think this is a good idea. That is I agree with both posts in that they are suggesting raids should be more enjoyable to people can experience the content. I mean, it really does seem like the worst possible use of development resources to put in so much time into content MOST of the player base (who pay for the game) NEVER see the content outside a youtube video. That is just shamefully bad design. I feel its bad design because they failed to make it accessible.

Now they are trying to make strikes as a stepping stone, but I think your idea makes a hell of allot more sense. I think raids should be easier to run to the point that everyone can faceroll through them like OpenWorld, Stories, etc. THEN make shorter strikes that are hard and have many different hard strikes for those who want new hard content. It would use less resources to keep the more demanding players happy and would allow more of the player base to enjoy the fun and pretty content that is hidden behind the Wall that is raiding.

TBH I think raids s it stands now was a large waste of resources and allot of delusional planning cause Im guessing Anet thought people would do them more which ignores how few people actually do T4s and CMs vs how many do fractals. Same thing. Fractals in general are accessible for average players to enjoy, but T4 and CM offers people more of a challenge. The difference is Strikes + Raids is BACKWARDS. Meaning, Raids should be the easy accessible content and Strikes should be the equivalent of T4s and CMs. You could have a variety of strikes with scaling difficulty or add instabilities as an option to raise the challenge even more. It seems like this kinda of change might actually give everyone more enjoyable content. That said, I'm sure some hard core raiding dudes will come tell me why this is wrong.

edit: Also the time factor. Pretty much every time I have tried to raid it becomes allot of waiting around then when you finally get the "correct 10 players" someone has to leave, then another, and this can drag out all because of the complexity of what is required to basically enjoy some neat content. So after a few times of wasting an entire evening or day waiting with thumb up you know what, I personally lost interest in the idea of raiding because it takes a long time and isn't designed to be fun. Also I have legendary armor already so really the only reason I wanted to raid was to experience the content, but its locked up in this fiasco so I for the moment moved on and just don't bother cause it isn't worth it at present.

From everything I've heard and read the raids in this game shouldn't be taking anyone 2 - 4 hours to complete, as far as I know, and someone can correct me if they want they're designed to be finished is a little as an hour(60 minutes and that isn't a speed run asfaik) up to 90 minutes(2 hours is pushing it from what I've heard through several sources). I'm not going to respond to the waiting around part because that sounds like you're trying to PUG it and that will take a lot of waiting around, best experience is through a guild that raids consistently or forming your own in-guild raid team. Obviously not everyone is going to experience the same thing, but I know that ArenaNet did not want the Raids in GW2 to be those long time commitments that you have in other MMO's. That being said, I still wouldn't do them even if they had a casual mode with reduced rewards, there's really no reason to do them for the story when I can just watch a video of the story/lore, that's the same as doing it myself only I didn't run through the content on my character.

Your response is nothing but a side line. It doesn't actually address what is stated as the issue. It doesn't agree or disagree, yet attempts to dismiss what was said.

What was said is basically, that most players don't and never will raid with the present raid system, yet most players WOULD like to experience the content and would enjoy it other than for all the reasons mentioned. Some posted suggestions I felt made sense. Specifically, I like the idea of making strikes much harder, and making raids much easier. I think its a stupid waste of resources for Anet to pour so much into Raid content when Most players will never use it. Rather, I think it would make allot more sense to have raid content much more accessible since its some of the best actual content in the game and is currently a waste. For those who want a good challenge, strikes seems like the logical format vs the raid content that presently takes up so much development and gives little to nothing for the average player.In other words, I see Anet using up so much development resources on raids that most players wont ever use a massive waste. I think should be obvious that this makes sense regardless of how long you think an experienced raid team takes. Its totally beside the point. I was just adding in why I myself don't raid. I don't raid because planning, prepping, training, and looking for 10 people of the right class, with the right gear, right build, right experience, ability to tie it all together and know all the mechanics IS SOMETHING MOST PLAYERS WILL NEVER DO SO ITS A WASTE OF RESOURCES! Again, that seems totally obvious and hard NOT to admit. Seems like you HAVE to be bias not to agree with that.

I replied to someone that said they didn't have the time to Raid, that is what that specific reply was in reference to, nothing more...when someone is not telling the truth about something it makes sense to repute that statement, which is all I did. Saying they take to long is disingenuous at best, unless you only have 15 - 30 minutes to play...and I don't want people with families and spouses to start whining. I had those too, and I still made time to game because I needed to relax and get away from the real world, it wasn't that difficult to juggle parenting and being a spouse alongside long playing sessions every single night..and now I'm going off on a tangent.

The assertion that raids take 15-30 is laughable. Nuff said.

The overall point of what I have said was in support of what others suggested. Nothing more. Specifically, I was agreeing with the idea that since raids have allot of great content that the majority of the player base would enjoy if the average player felt Raiding was more accessible while ALSO acknowledging that many endgame players want more challenging content and more new content. Since Strikes are less complicated BUT CAN be very challenging (boneskinner) for raiders. I like the idea other players suggest. Specifically, that if raids where made easier more people could enjoy the content and maybe if strikes where made to fill the niche of highly challenging scalable content for demanding power gamer types that perhaps that would be a better balance and better use of resources. In other words, if raids where easy and strikes where hard, with challenge motes and instabilities as options for more challenge, the player base as a whole may gain much more from the same development time and efforts. Wouldn't that be nice!?!

I dont expect everyone to agree with this and said as much. However, the idea that this is somehow illogical is, well..., illogical. ;)

I disagree that making raids easier and strikes harder would help. I feel like that would just cause most of the players doing strikes to switch to raids, if they're made easy enough, and if not, just quit both entirely, wasting even more dev time and resources. Many, if not most, players already seem to struggle with apparently simple mechanics in strikes (Such as harpooning the boss in the most recent strike) and would almost certainly be uncomfortable doing any kind of advanced build/DPS/rotation type stuff needed for raids or more difficult strikes (I know I would be). I agree with the posters requesting a difficulty level system, in which the more difficult setting gives far better rewards, but casuals, such as myself, can still experience story and exploration content in the easier version. That way both hardcore and casual players get what they want, and no resources are wasted on content only a small minority of playerbase does (i.e. current raids).

Sure, I think that is also a workable solution. It sounds like we both want the same thing. That is, more people able to use the game mode, while also preserving the ability for people to find challenging and rewarding content. I personally spend most of my time in competitive modes rather than PvE modes anyway. I am really just trying to throw my 2cp into the topic because I organize events for my guild and I know from experience it can be pretty hard to get people to commit to doing raids or strikes. For me, ideas that would get more people enjoying these modes would give us all more to do as a group that could include more of the guild. I like that idea. I also agree that rewards shouldn't be the same in raids if they became much easier or harder and same for strikes. A scaling system like fractals has could work too I suppose. The thing Im sure of is that right now allot of the player base doesn't raid but does seem to like the look of the content and such. I think most everyone would like to see more people using the content.

scaling system or different level is the only answer really. people are talking about strikes bridging the gap between Strikes and Raids, but this fundamentally misses the point, 'casual players' are just players that choose not to raid at this moment in time because the style of instanced content does not appeal. its got nothing to do with skill or loot and everything to do with game play choices and what they see as fun. For e.g raids require certain builds, raids require you to wipe and learn. those 2 points alone which are perfectly valid aspects of raid game play is a big put-off for many casual players, especially in a game designed around build freedom and experimentation.

Sure I that all makes sense. I know things like wipe and learn is an issue in strikes and raids. People tend to give up after one or two attempts on a new encounter which means the other remaining need to look for more or do with less than 10. Then u know things can either go well after that or people can just drop off more if replacements arent found quickly. Not always but its pretty common and it can detract from the fun factor.

exactly.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

The word "raid," provokes positive images from some players, and decidedly negative images from others. Why hold onto it? Convert all 10-player instanced content (raids and strikes) to a multiple tier system, with tiered rewards. ANet has a model for how that works, and by all accounts it has been more successful than any other harder, instanced content the game has offered. With the existing raids and strikes, ANet already has enough encounters to provide a lot of options for players to enjoy.

It's just a thought.

[wickedkae.4980]

@sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Forging steel should be 5 players... that thing is a low effort 11111 mission with a health sponge boss at the end, it was awfull...

I mean, you can choose to ignore the mechanics of the fight and turn it into a 30 minute health sponge, or you can do it the way its meant to be done and beat it in about 5 minutes. That's not the the encounter's fault you chose option 1.

@wickedkae.4980 said:I played this game because originally there were no raid requirements to get the best gearI lived that. I didn't have to deal with the toxic min/max people and could have fun while achieving goals.

Then raids were introduced and all chances for getting the best gear were once again locked behind forced min/max content. It was a good betrayal. Thanks anet.

This is blatently false. The best level of gear in the game (ascended, or legendary if you want stat swapping) was always and can still be 100% acquired without ever doing raids.

How is this false? The best gear in the game would be gear with stat switching. It is objectively better than non stat switching. The statement stands as 100% true. Do you not understand the concept of features adding value?

[sevenDEADLY.5281]

@wickedkae.4980 said:

@sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Forging steel should be 5 players... that thing is a low effort 11111 mission with a health sponge boss at the end, it was awfull...

I mean, you can choose to ignore the mechanics of the fight and turn it into a 30 minute health sponge, or you can do it the way its meant to be done and beat it in about 5 minutes. That's not the the encounter's fault you chose option 1.

@wickedkae.4980 said:I played this game because originally there were no raid requirements to get the best gearI lived that. I didn't have to deal with the toxic min/max people and could have fun while achieving goals.

Then raids were introduced and all chances for getting the best gear were once again locked behind forced min/max content. It was a good betrayal. Thanks anet.

This is blatently false. The best level of gear in the game (ascended, or legendary if you want stat swapping) was always and can still be 100% acquired without ever doing raids.

How is this false? The best gear in the game would be gear with stat switching. It is objectively better than non stat switching. The statement stands as 100% true. Do you not understand the concept of features adding value?

Legendary and ascended are the exact same tier of gear. You can acquire that tier of gear from MANY different places in the game. Claiming legendary gear is a tier above ascended is false regardless if you personally want it or not or find stat swapping useful or not. Claiming Arenanet "betrayed" you is overwhelmingly overdramatic. A close friend plunging a knife into your back is a betrayal. A video game company introducing new content to their game that YOU personally don't like is a minor inconvenience at most. There's an ocean sized gap between those two things.