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What's the drawback to running thief in your comp?

ArlAlt.1630

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storm.3120

storm.3120

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@bravan.3876 said:

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.

Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs.

Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think.I didnt read the rest but holy cow, kitten? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to
? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy:Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD

I deleted Superiority complex from my post already.What value to you see in the retargeting mechanic? It is not needed to define Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle (at least when IH is used). It is just a low skill ceiling mechanic very annoying to face, toxic by itself. IA compared to Decoy what has 45s cd is way weaker. IA is a max range teleport + dodge+ insane dmg from ambushes (incl clones without IH traited)+ retargeting. In my experience only low skilled Mirages liek to use this mechanic, it can buy a lot of time by just standing still an spam ambushes. Somethign we don't want to have. Builds that can spam ambushes only and have enough impact in fights with only that. The randomness in posititon change and clone replacement is nothing the Mesmer or the opponent can tactically work with in terms of mind gaming. Randomness always deletes a big part of skill ceiling/ mind games from encounters. IA is toxic asf. Axe 3 is less of an issue but in the end the whole retargeting mechanic is a mess should have never been added to the game. It has way less counterplay and tactical deepness than stealth, what ppl cry about already. If you Mesmer mains want to give up somehting to make you less hated by the community i think this mess retargeting mechanic is a good thing to be deleted first, it doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway.I dont care for retargeting, not even a little bit, normal people get a target with tab or whatever they use quickly.Decoy and the entire clone summoning/phantasmal category was pretty much hit ...emm... I dont even know why but that happened when they changed the illusions traitline iirc, hence why, you see decoy have a "clone" category, because it was affected by that removed trait.You are overestimating IA by a lot, its a teleport in a random place and without clones have no value (ambushes do insane damage now? It was like 3k on zerk mesmer, lel), but yet again, even if you delete it, it wouldnt matter not for me, not for mirage players
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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@Odik.4587 said:

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.

Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs.

Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think.I didnt read the rest but holy cow, kitten? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to
? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy:Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD

I deleted Superiority complex from my post already.What value to you see in the retargeting mechanic? It is not needed to define Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle (at least when IH is used). It is just a low skill ceiling mechanic very annoying to face, toxic by itself. IA compared to Decoy what has 45s cd is way weaker. IA is a max range teleport + dodge+ insane dmg from ambushes (incl clones without IH traited)+ retargeting. In my experience only low skilled Mirages liek to use this mechanic, it can buy a lot of time by just standing still an spam ambushes. Somethign we don't want to have. Builds that can spam ambushes only and have enough impact in fights with only that. The randomness in posititon change and clone replacement is nothing the Mesmer or the opponent can tactically work with in terms of mind gaming. Randomness always deletes a big part of skill ceiling/ mind games from encounters. IA is toxic asf. Axe 3 is less of an issue but in the end the whole retargeting mechanic is a mess should have never been added to the game. It has way less counterplay and tactical deepness than stealth, what ppl cry about already. If you Mesmer mains want to give up somehting to make you less hated by the community i think this mess retargeting mechanic is a good thing to be deleted first, it doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway.I dont care for retargeting, not even a little bit, normal people get a target with tab or whatever they use quickly.Decoy and the entire clone summoning/phantasmal category was pretty much hit ...emm... I dont even know why but that happened when they changed the illusions traitline iirc, hence why, you see decoy have a "clone" category, because it was affected by that removed trait.You are overestimating IA by a lot, its a teleport in a random place and without clones have no value (ambushes do insane damage now? It was like 3k on zerk mesmer, lel), but yet again, even if you delete it, it wouldnt matter not for me, not for mirage players

See, so it would be an easy way to be less hated by the community. It doesn't add any skill ceiling, the randomness is bad for the Mesmer and the opponent and it is simply annoying to face. It clearly is a mechanic neither needed nor healthy for Mirage and the game.

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storm.3120

storm.3120

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@bravan.3876 said:

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.

Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs.

Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think.I didnt read the rest but holy cow, kitten? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to
? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy:Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD

I deleted Superiority complex from my post already.What value to you see in the retargeting mechanic? It is not needed to define Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle (at least when IH is used). It is just a low skill ceiling mechanic very annoying to face, toxic by itself. IA compared to Decoy what has 45s cd is way weaker. IA is a max range teleport + dodge+ insane dmg from ambushes (incl clones without IH traited)+ retargeting. In my experience only low skilled Mirages liek to use this mechanic, it can buy a lot of time by just standing still an spam ambushes. Somethign we don't want to have. Builds that can spam ambushes only and have enough impact in fights with only that. The randomness in posititon change and clone replacement is nothing the Mesmer or the opponent can tactically work with in terms of mind gaming. Randomness always deletes a big part of skill ceiling/ mind games from encounters. IA is toxic asf. Axe 3 is less of an issue but in the end the whole retargeting mechanic is a mess should have never been added to the game. It has way less counterplay and tactical deepness than stealth, what ppl cry about already. If you Mesmer mains want to give up somehting to make you less hated by the community i think this mess retargeting mechanic is a good thing to be deleted first, it doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway.I dont care for retargeting, not even a little bit, normal people get a target with tab or whatever they use quickly.Decoy and the entire clone summoning/phantasmal category was pretty much hit ...emm... I dont even know why but that happened when they changed the illusions traitline iirc, hence why, you see decoy have a "clone" category, because it was affected by that removed trait.You are overestimating IA by a lot, its a teleport in a random place and without clones have no value (ambushes do insane damage now? It was like 3k on zerk mesmer, lel), but yet again, even if you delete it, it wouldnt matter not for me, not for mirage players

See, so it would be an easy way to be less hated by the community. It doesn't add any skill ceiling, the randomness is bad for the Mesmer and the opponent and it is simply annoying to face. It clearly is a mechanic neither needed nor healthy for Mirage and the game.So, instead of actually reworking it, lets give it 1 hour cooldown?Can they actually gib ANY skill category to Ether feast as its PROBABLY the only skill in the game that has none? And add traits for the glamours, its just missing since they removed the trait and forgot to reintroduce it
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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@Quadox.7834 Truth has been spoken.sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it.And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part.But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what.

Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible.To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow 5. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage.

@UNOwen.7132If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes.@Crab Fear.1624Problem with mirage mobility is lots of dashes from sword, and small ports. But it lacks swiftness, this alone makes it so that mirage can cover alot of ground and then be stranded, I had games where I was chased down by angry holo for long periods of time, and holo leap alone evened out my jaunt, mirage cloak and sword ambush distance.Swiftness is REALLY strong over longer distances. But if sword leap needs to be shortened to buff mesmer then so be it. I would give up 20% of its range if it was made less clunky and actually hit targets in a hearthbeat anyways.

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viquing.8254

viquing.8254

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@bravan.3876 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream.

Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5"

AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief.

Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description.

The mobility part was not.

Chop at mobility and beef up dueling.

Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore.

Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were.

The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility.

Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either.

Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are:
  1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless).
  2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.
  3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release.
  4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style.
  5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again.
  6. IH should be considered to be baseline, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here).
  7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed).

That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since game pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi.

According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead.

When did I said that axe ambush is a thing ?You say that power ambush are more skilled than the condi versions. I just write to you that it's not the case.

GS is a weapon who come with no sustain skills in it. When you look at meta weapon, most of them has a last 1 skill to sustain or they give sustain by class mechanics (nec.). Even longbow ranger have stealth. This alone explain why power mesmer is so hard to make it work because you are facing class who has at least weapons with 1 tempo skill on each weapon swap. Skill has nothing to do there it's pure viability. Just compare it to other class similar weapons used in meta, you should see that they all give not only damage or they give sustain by class mechanics (the evade on war GS explain at 50% why it's a meta weapon for ages, the other 50% is the mobility.).Added to that, dev has to balanced mesmers taking into account that they can have 2 weapon set with evade frame on it, so they can't balance a spec who can sustain well with GS by not making an op survival if mesmer take other weapons.If tomorrow they put a 0.45 sec block on mind stab for example like whirlwind attack but being static during the evade, you should see more GS uses.It's mirage independant yes but it explain imo much things.It's not a disagree discussion, you assert false things. I don't react every posts you defends your "skills" visions but here it's just no true, even taking apart the subjective part.

The current condi burst combo is :Torch 4 -> blink/jaunt-> sword3 (-> sword ambush) -> torch 5 + F2. Then you can follow with axe swap -> 5 pistol -> 2 axes -> 3 axes (with a f3 rupt during the cycle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal/clear.).The historic power burst combo is :Torch -> 2GS -> blink/jaunt -> F3 -> F1. Then you can follow with sword swap -> 3 sword -> 2 sword -> sword autos (with sword ambush during the ccle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal.).

With of course rotations adapted to opponents/situation. So no the power version is clearly not skilled++ compared to the condi version on top of that you can pressure from range during no burst phases which is not possible with a full melee condi build.

Agreed about detargeting mechanics that should be removed :

  • It's confusing to new players and make they hate illusions more than before.
  • it's unefficient versus good players.
  • it's unusefull versus aoe spam in general.

About axe 3 they could start to make it reliable because it's countered by just moving... Imagine a gard's leap of faith failed because the opponent is moving...

Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy. It should also give the +50% hp on illusions back if we want to make chrono viable or give a similar trait in chrono.

Not condi ambush but clone auto shouldn't output any condi to be on par with direct damage. They should do this in 2015 instead of removing clones on death traits.Last condi mirage meta build before the last rework was about letting clone autoing, not even ambush. IH wasn't used to ambush but to save clones from AOE last season.Condi ambush should do condi damage the same power ambush should do power damage, particulary considering the obvious animation on thoses.

Why mirage is played is :

  • Mobility : sword ambush, jaunt. Renforced by the 50% nerf on core manipulation superspeed.
  • Condi clear : EM, jaunt.

It's the mesmer spec who give the most mobility & survavibility which is what is needed as long as mesmer role is map control around portal.Meanwhile an equivalent core spec would drop damage and mobility if taking inspiration thanks to inspiration condi clear counterpart = if you condi clear with shatter, you can't burst. Or drop condiclear and mobility if taking chaos or duelling. (Which is also why I disagree about you opinion on inspiration and chaos being more carry line than mirage.)

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@Odik.4587 said:

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.

Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs.

Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think.I didnt read the rest but holy cow, kitten? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to
? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy:Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD

I deleted Superiority complex from my post already.What value to you see in the retargeting mechanic? It is not needed to define Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle (at least when IH is used). It is just a low skill ceiling mechanic very annoying to face, toxic by itself. IA compared to Decoy what has 45s cd is way weaker. IA is a max range teleport + dodge+ insane dmg from ambushes (incl clones without IH traited)+ retargeting. In my experience only low skilled Mirages liek to use this mechanic, it can buy a lot of time by just standing still an spam ambushes. Somethign we don't want to have. Builds that can spam ambushes only and have enough impact in fights with only that. The randomness in posititon change and clone replacement is nothing the Mesmer or the opponent can tactically work with in terms of mind gaming. Randomness always deletes a big part of skill ceiling/ mind games from encounters. IA is toxic asf. Axe 3 is less of an issue but in the end the whole retargeting mechanic is a mess should have never been added to the game. It has way less counterplay and tactical deepness than stealth, what ppl cry about already. If you Mesmer mains want to give up somehting to make you less hated by the community i think this mess retargeting mechanic is a good thing to be deleted first, it doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway.I dont care for retargeting, not even a little bit, normal people get a target with tab or whatever they use quickly.Decoy and the entire clone summoning/phantasmal category was pretty much hit ...emm... I dont even know why but that happened when they changed the illusions traitline iirc, hence why, you see decoy have a "clone" category, because it was affected by that removed trait.You are overestimating IA by a lot, its a teleport in a random place and without clones have no value (ambushes do insane damage now? It was like 3k on zerk mesmer, lel), but yet again, even if you delete it, it wouldnt matter not for me, not for mirage players

See, so it would be an easy way to be less hated by the community. It doesn't add any skill ceiling, the randomness is bad for the Mesmer and the opponent and it is simply annoying to face. It clearly is a mechanic neither needed nor healthy for Mirage and the game.So, instead of actually reworking it, lets give it 1 hour cooldown?Can they actually gib ANY skill category to Ether feast as its PROBABLY the only skill in the game that has none? And add traits for the glamours, its just missing since they removed the trait and forgot to reintroduce it

If i would believe Anet would take the time and would have enough clue and creativity to just rework retargeting stuff into something else, less toxic and higher skill ceiling, i would ask for that. The 50s + cd is not a deletion cd like a 300s on passives (which are still problematic even with that btw), the 50+s cd i think is justified when comparing its reward with other utlities and their cds. 50s is totally accurete for what the skills offers in my view.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@viquing.8254 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream.

Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5"

AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief.

Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description.

The mobility part was not.

Chop at mobility and beef up dueling.

Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore.

Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were.

The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility.

Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either.

Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are:
  1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless).
  2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.
  3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release.
  4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style.
  5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again.
  6. IH should be considered to be baseline, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here).
  7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed).

That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since game pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi.

According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead.

When did I said that axe ambush is a thing ?You say that power ambush are more skilled than the condi versions. I just write to you that it's not the case.

GS is a weapon who come with no sustain skills in it. When you look at meta weapon, most of them has a last 1 skill to sustain or they give sustain by class mechanics (nec.). Even longbow ranger have stealth. This alone explain why power mesmer is so hard to make it work because you are facing class who has at least weapons with 1 tempo skill on each weapon swap. Skill has nothing to do there it's pure viability. Just compare it to other class similar weapons used in meta, you should see that they all give not only damage or they give sustain by class mechanics (the evade on war GS explain at 50% why it's a meta weapon for ages, the other 50% is the mobility.).Added to that, dev has to balanced mesmers taking into account that they can have 2 weapon set with evade frame on it, so they can't balance a spec who can sustain well with GS by not making an op survival if mesmer take other weapons.If tomorrow they put a 0.45 sec block on mind stab for example like whirlwind attack but being static during the evade, you should see more GS uses.It's mirage independant yes but it explain imo much things.It's not a disagree discussion, you assert false things. I don't react every posts you defends your "skills" visions but here it's just no true, even taking apart the subjective part.

The current condi burst combo is :Torch 4 -> blink/jaunt-> sword3 (-> sword ambush) -> torch 5 + F2. Then you can follow with axe swap -> 5 pistol -> 2 axes -> 3 axes (with a f3 rupt during the cycle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal/clear.).The historic power burst combo is :Torch -> 2GS -> blink/jaunt -> F3 -> F1. Then you can follow with sword swap -> 3 sword -> 2 sword -> sword autos (with sword ambush during the ccle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal.).

With of course rotations adapted to opponents/situation. So no the power version is clearly not skilled++ compared to the condi version on top of that you can pressure from range during no burst phases which is not possible with a full melee condi build.

Agreed about detargeting mechanics that should be removed :
  • It's confusing to new players and make they hate illusions more than before.
  • it's unefficient versus good players.
  • it's unusefull versus aoe spam in general.

About axe 3 they could start to make it reliable because it's countered by just moving... Imagine a gard's leap of faith failed because the opponent is moving...

Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy. It should also give the +50% hp on illusions back if we want to make chrono viable or give a similar trait in chrono.

Not condi ambush but clone auto shouldn't output any condi to be on par with direct damage. They should do this in 2015 instead of removing clones on death traits.Last condi mirage meta build before the last rework was about letting clone autoing, not even ambush. IH wasn't used to ambush but to save clones from AOE last season.Condi ambush should do condi damage the same power ambush should do power damage, particulary considering the obvious animation on thoses.

Why mirage is played is :
  • Mobility : sword ambush, jaunt. Renforced by the 50% nerf on core manipulation superspeed.
  • Condi clear : EM, jaunt.

It's the mesmer spec who give the most mobility & survavibility which is what is needed as long as mesmer role is map control around portal.Meanwhile an equivalent core spec would drop damage and mobility if taking inspiration thanks to inspiration condi clear counterpart = if you condi clear with shatter, you can't burst. Or drop condiclear and mobility if taking chaos or duelling. (Which is also why I disagree about you opinion on inspiration and chaos being more carry line than mirage.)

Gs 5 is a defensive skill even though it has more counter than an evade on a weaponskill. In that i agree. Everything else i disagree and i think i describted very well why condi ambush design leads to a way higher passivity from IH /Clone ambush mechanic, why passivity and opness in condi dmg application leads to zero opportunity costs in dodgemanagement, also curetn condi ambush design doesn't create the need to combo ambushes with other skills for good combos and for that in a way lower skill ceiling of the whole spec when played on condi (aside form the fact that condis in Gw2 are generally wrong designed ofc). My rework suggestion to condi ambushes turn them into something useful but less passive by adding the need for ofensive dodges for well timed utility effects different from pure defensive dodgeing to get enough reward out fo the IH/ambush mechanic instead just pure passive condi dmg from clone when only dodging pure defensive. It also would give condi weapons more value when the Mirage can and need to combo their ambushes with the burst like it is needed on Powerweapons to increase the dmg. This is a big difference, logical and obvious. There rly is no room for opinions.

The Condimirage build has a similar base combo than a core shatter played without gs true (except of the axe it is more a core build anyway, Mirage mostly only adds some passive sustain and more mobility but nothing that would turn it into a Mirage specific playstyle) it is totally different to a Powermirage played on max potential using the IH/ambush mechanic active to combo as it should be. My balance suggestion would give Condimirage a more interesting, more skilled, more active way of playing, in particular skilled Mesmer player should be happy about to get.

Yes ofc all my balance suggestion are based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back otherwise it would be an even more overkill than already.

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storm.3120

storm.3120

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@bravan.3876 said:

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.

Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs.

Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think.I didnt read the rest but holy cow, kitten? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to
? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy:Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD

I deleted Superiority complex from my post already.What value to you see in the retargeting mechanic? It is not needed to define Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle (at least when IH is used). It is just a low skill ceiling mechanic very annoying to face, toxic by itself. IA compared to Decoy what has 45s cd is way weaker. IA is a max range teleport + dodge+ insane dmg from ambushes (incl clones without IH traited)+ retargeting. In my experience only low skilled Mirages liek to use this mechanic, it can buy a lot of time by just standing still an spam ambushes. Somethign we don't want to have. Builds that can spam ambushes only and have enough impact in fights with only that. The randomness in posititon change and clone replacement is nothing the Mesmer or the opponent can tactically work with in terms of mind gaming. Randomness always deletes a big part of skill ceiling/ mind games from encounters. IA is toxic asf. Axe 3 is less of an issue but in the end the whole retargeting mechanic is a mess should have never been added to the game. It has way less counterplay and tactical deepness than stealth, what ppl cry about already. If you Mesmer mains want to give up somehting to make you less hated by the community i think this mess retargeting mechanic is a good thing to be deleted first, it doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway.I dont care for retargeting, not even a little bit, normal people get a target with tab or whatever they use quickly.Decoy and the entire clone summoning/phantasmal category was pretty much hit ...emm... I dont even know why but that happened when they changed the illusions traitline iirc, hence why, you see decoy have a "clone" category, because it was affected by that removed trait.You are overestimating IA by a lot, its a teleport in a random place and without clones have no value (ambushes do insane damage now? It was like 3k on zerk mesmer, lel), but yet again, even if you delete it, it wouldnt matter not for me, not for mirage players

See, so it would be an easy way to be less hated by the community. It doesn't add any skill ceiling, the randomness is bad for the Mesmer and the opponent and it is simply annoying to face. It clearly is a mechanic neither needed nor healthy for Mirage and the game.So, instead of actually reworking it, lets give it 1 hour cooldown?Can they actually gib ANY skill category to Ether feast as its PROBABLY the only skill in the game that has none? And add traits for the glamours, its just missing since they removed the trait and forgot to reintroduce it

If i would believe Anet would take the time and would have enough clue and creativity to just rework retargeting stuff into something else, less toxic and higher skill ceiling, i would ask for that. The 50s + cd is not a deletion cd like a 300s on passives (which are still problematic even with that btw), the 50+s cd i think is justified when comparing its reward with other utlities and their cds.
50s is totally accurete for what the skills offers in my view.
You have terrible view on how things should be, thats for sure. :joy:When you give alrdy bad skill insane cd, its the same as if you would delete it, no one would ever use it. And as usual, 90% of the thread isnt about thief. If you cant say anything anything on the topic, why wouldnt you make you "ultimate" balance suggsetions?Ok, what cooldown SHADOW STEP should get according to you , which is currently on 50s cd, u know, moving 1200 distance (back and forth - so 2400, each use breaking stun and second teleport remove 3 conditions) ? (I expect to see something like 90 xD)
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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@Odik.4587 said:

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.

Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs.

Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think.I didnt read the rest but holy cow, kitten? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to
? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy:Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD

I deleted Superiority complex from my post already.What value to you see in the retargeting mechanic? It is not needed to define Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle (at least when IH is used). It is just a low skill ceiling mechanic very annoying to face, toxic by itself. IA compared to Decoy what has 45s cd is way weaker. IA is a max range teleport + dodge+ insane dmg from ambushes (incl clones without IH traited)+ retargeting. In my experience only low skilled Mirages liek to use this mechanic, it can buy a lot of time by just standing still an spam ambushes. Somethign we don't want to have. Builds that can spam ambushes only and have enough impact in fights with only that. The randomness in posititon change and clone replacement is nothing the Mesmer or the opponent can tactically work with in terms of mind gaming. Randomness always deletes a big part of skill ceiling/ mind games from encounters. IA is toxic asf. Axe 3 is less of an issue but in the end the whole retargeting mechanic is a mess should have never been added to the game. It has way less counterplay and tactical deepness than stealth, what ppl cry about already. If you Mesmer mains want to give up somehting to make you less hated by the community i think this mess retargeting mechanic is a good thing to be deleted first, it doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway.I dont care for retargeting, not even a little bit, normal people get a target with tab or whatever they use quickly.Decoy and the entire clone summoning/phantasmal category was pretty much hit ...emm... I dont even know why but that happened when they changed the illusions traitline iirc, hence why, you see decoy have a "clone" category, because it was affected by that removed trait.You are overestimating IA by a lot, its a teleport in a random place and without clones have no value (ambushes do insane damage now? It was like 3k on zerk mesmer, lel), but yet again, even if you delete it, it wouldnt matter not for me, not for mirage players

See, so it would be an easy way to be less hated by the community. It doesn't add any skill ceiling, the randomness is bad for the Mesmer and the opponent and it is simply annoying to face. It clearly is a mechanic neither needed nor healthy for Mirage and the game.So, instead of actually reworking it, lets give it 1 hour cooldown?Can they actually gib ANY skill category to Ether feast as its PROBABLY the only skill in the game that has none? And add traits for the glamours, its just missing since they removed the trait and forgot to reintroduce it

If i would believe Anet would take the time and would have enough clue and creativity to just rework retargeting stuff into something else, less toxic and higher skill ceiling, i would ask for that. The 50s + cd is not a deletion cd like a 300s on passives (which are still problematic even with that btw), the 50+s cd i think is justified when comparing its reward with other utlities and their cds.
50s is totally accurete for what the skills offers in my view.
You have terrible view on how things should be, thats for sure. :joy:When you give alrdy bad skill insane cd, its the same as if you would delete it, no one would ever use it. And as usual, 90% of the thread isnt about thief. If you cant say anything anything on the topic, why wouldnt you make you "ultimate" balance suggsetions?Ok, what cooldown SHADOW STEP should get according to you , which is currently on 50s cd, u know, moving 1200 distance (back and forth - so 2400, each use breaking stun and second teleport remove 3 conditions) ? (I expect to see something like 90 xD)

As said the skill is not bad, it is only bad in terms of deleting skill ceiling from encounters by its randomness making it impossible to tactically and skillful work with that skill and that for the Mesmer itself as also for the opponent in terms of tactical mind gaming. The reward from that skill is completely op compared to most other utilities with the same purpose (SoM, Decoy, Mirror Images even though Mirror Images should lose the retargeting feature again, what a stupid idea to add a Mirage mechanic to a core trait in the first place). In my opinion 50s cd is justified without making it useless, just more balanced as a subpar alternative to a rework of retargeting skills into something less toxic and more skilled.

Comparing to other classes skills is always dangereous, it doesn't always make sense. But i don't see Shadowstep in the Thief environment (with its different mechanics and strengths) as that much stronger than IA. IA has more offensive value while also being very defensive, during Shadowstep is more mobility and defensive orientated. It doesn't have any dmg. They could consider to delete the second stunbreak form it just like they did for sword 2 maybe and reduce condi remove to 2 instead 3. Shadowstep also has not the problematic randomness IA has and makes it even more low skill ceiling.

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storm.3120

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@bravan.3876 said:

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.

Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs.

Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think.I didnt read the rest but holy cow, kitten? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to
? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy:Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD

I deleted Superiority complex from my post already.What value to you see in the retargeting mechanic? It is not needed to define Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle (at least when IH is used). It is just a low skill ceiling mechanic very annoying to face, toxic by itself. IA compared to Decoy what has 45s cd is way weaker. IA is a max range teleport + dodge+ insane dmg from ambushes (incl clones without IH traited)+ retargeting. In my experience only low skilled Mirages liek to use this mechanic, it can buy a lot of time by just standing still an spam ambushes. Somethign we don't want to have. Builds that can spam ambushes only and have enough impact in fights with only that. The randomness in posititon change and clone replacement is nothing the Mesmer or the opponent can tactically work with in terms of mind gaming. Randomness always deletes a big part of skill ceiling/ mind games from encounters. IA is toxic asf. Axe 3 is less of an issue but in the end the whole retargeting mechanic is a mess should have never been added to the game. It has way less counterplay and tactical deepness than stealth, what ppl cry about already. If you Mesmer mains want to give up somehting to make you less hated by the community i think this mess retargeting mechanic is a good thing to be deleted first, it doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway.I dont care for retargeting, not even a little bit, normal people get a target with tab or whatever they use quickly.Decoy and the entire clone summoning/phantasmal category was pretty much hit ...emm... I dont even know why but that happened when they changed the illusions traitline iirc, hence why, you see decoy have a "clone" category, because it was affected by that removed trait.You are overestimating IA by a lot, its a teleport in a random place and without clones have no value (ambushes do insane damage now? It was like 3k on zerk mesmer, lel), but yet again, even if you delete it, it wouldnt matter not for me, not for mirage players

See, so it would be an easy way to be less hated by the community. It doesn't add any skill ceiling, the randomness is bad for the Mesmer and the opponent and it is simply annoying to face. It clearly is a mechanic neither needed nor healthy for Mirage and the game.So, instead of actually reworking it, lets give it 1 hour cooldown?Can they actually gib ANY skill category to Ether feast as its PROBABLY the only skill in the game that has none? And add traits for the glamours, its just missing since they removed the trait and forgot to reintroduce it

If i would believe Anet would take the time and would have enough clue and creativity to just rework retargeting stuff into something else, less toxic and higher skill ceiling, i would ask for that. The 50s + cd is not a deletion cd like a 300s on passives (which are still problematic even with that btw), the 50+s cd i think is justified when comparing its reward with other utlities and their cds.
50s is totally accurete for what the skills offers in my view.
You have terrible view on how things should be, thats for sure. :joy:When you give alrdy bad skill insane cd, its the same as if you would delete it, no one would ever use it. And as usual, 90% of the thread isnt about thief. If you cant say anything anything on the topic, why wouldnt you make you "ultimate" balance suggsetions?Ok, what cooldown SHADOW STEP should get according to you , which is currently on 50s cd, u know, moving 1200 distance (back and forth - so 2400, each use breaking stun and second teleport remove 3 conditions) ? (I expect to see something like 90 xD)

As said the skill is not bad, it is only bad in terms of deleting skill ceiling from encounters by its randomness making it impossible to tactically and skillful work with that skill and that for the Mesmer itself as also for the opponent in terms of tactical mind gaming. The reward from that skill is completely op compared to most other utilities with the same purpose (SoM, Decoy, Mirror Images even though Mirror Images should lose the retargeting feature again, what a stupid idea to add a Mirage mechanic to a core trait in the first place). In my opinion 50s cd is justified without making it useless, just more balanced as a subpar alternative to a rework of retargeting skills into something less toxic and more skilled.You are making even less sense with every post now :anguished:"Detargeting" is not really mirage mechanic, it was there in form of stealth and btw soulbeast smoke assault aslo distarget, mirage mechanic is suddenly added to SLB ! xDWhat reward? Getting teleported where you dont know himself ? Seems counter productive to me.Decoy historically werent used until everyone used core PU mesmer,garbage without a trait category and cant be reduced by anything, at least thief BP has aoe blast stealth around himself compared to this "rewarding" utility.As you mention SoM, this is pretty aids with inspiration invul on signets, which you should be alrdy ranting about and to demand it to be deleted, its far less "SKILLED" than a trashy random port.I will help you here -
its better than random teleport and also has a target break on it! Also the blind too! You should start a nerf crusade nao! xD
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bravan.3876

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@Odik.4587 said:

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay

  1. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for.

Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs.

Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think.I didnt read the rest but holy cow, kitten? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to
? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy:Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD

I deleted Superiority complex from my post already.What value to you see in the retargeting mechanic? It is not needed to define Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle (at least when IH is used). It is just a low skill ceiling mechanic very annoying to face, toxic by itself. IA compared to Decoy what has 45s cd is way weaker. IA is a max range teleport + dodge+ insane dmg from ambushes (incl clones without IH traited)+ retargeting. In my experience only low skilled Mirages liek to use this mechanic, it can buy a lot of time by just standing still an spam ambushes. Somethign we don't want to have. Builds that can spam ambushes only and have enough impact in fights with only that. The randomness in posititon change and clone replacement is nothing the Mesmer or the opponent can tactically work with in terms of mind gaming. Randomness always deletes a big part of skill ceiling/ mind games from encounters. IA is toxic asf. Axe 3 is less of an issue but in the end the whole retargeting mechanic is a mess should have never been added to the game. It has way less counterplay and tactical deepness than stealth, what ppl cry about already. If you Mesmer mains want to give up somehting to make you less hated by the community i think this mess retargeting mechanic is a good thing to be deleted first, it doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway.I dont care for retargeting, not even a little bit, normal people get a target with tab or whatever they use quickly.Decoy and the entire clone summoning/phantasmal category was pretty much hit ...emm... I dont even know why but that happened when they changed the illusions traitline iirc, hence why, you see decoy have a "clone" category, because it was affected by that removed trait.You are overestimating IA by a lot, its a teleport in a random place and without clones have no value (ambushes do insane damage now? It was like 3k on zerk mesmer, lel), but yet again, even if you delete it, it wouldnt matter not for me, not for mirage players

See, so it would be an easy way to be less hated by the community. It doesn't add any skill ceiling, the randomness is bad for the Mesmer and the opponent and it is simply annoying to face. It clearly is a mechanic neither needed nor healthy for Mirage and the game.So, instead of actually reworking it, lets give it 1 hour cooldown?Can they actually gib ANY skill category to Ether feast as its PROBABLY the only skill in the game that has none? And add traits for the glamours, its just missing since they removed the trait and forgot to reintroduce it

If i would believe Anet would take the time and would have enough clue and creativity to just rework retargeting stuff into something else, less toxic and higher skill ceiling, i would ask for that. The 50s + cd is not a deletion cd like a 300s on passives (which are still problematic even with that btw), the 50+s cd i think is justified when comparing its reward with other utlities and their cds.
50s is totally accurete for what the skills offers in my view.
You have terrible view on how things should be, thats for sure. :joy:When you give alrdy bad skill insane cd, its the same as if you would delete it, no one would ever use it. And as usual, 90% of the thread isnt about thief. If you cant say anything anything on the topic, why wouldnt you make you "ultimate" balance suggsetions?Ok, what cooldown SHADOW STEP should get according to you , which is currently on 50s cd, u know, moving 1200 distance (back and forth - so 2400, each use breaking stun and second teleport remove 3 conditions) ? (I expect to see something like 90 xD)

As said the skill is not bad, it is only bad in terms of deleting skill ceiling from encounters by its randomness making it impossible to tactically and skillful work with that skill and that for the Mesmer itself as also for the opponent in terms of tactical mind gaming. The reward from that skill is completely op compared to most other utilities with the same purpose (SoM, Decoy, Mirror Images even though Mirror Images should lose the retargeting feature again, what a stupid idea to add a Mirage mechanic to a core trait in the first place). In my opinion 50s cd is justified without making it useless, just more balanced as a subpar alternative to a rework of retargeting skills into something less toxic and more skilled.You are making even less sense with every post now :anguished:"Detargeting" is not really mirage mechanic, it was there in form of stealth and btw soulbeast smoke assault aslo distarget, mirage mechanic is suddenly added to SLB ! xDWhat reward? Getting teleported where you dont know himself ? Seems counter productive to me :joy:Decoy historically werent used until everyone used core PU mesmer,garbage without a trait category and cant be reduced by anything, at least thief BP has aoe blast stealth around himself compared to this "rewarding" utility.As you mention SoM, this is pretty aids with inspiration invul on signets, which you should be alrdy ranting about and to demand it to be deleted, its far less "SKILLED" than a trashy random port :joy:

I agree to Inspiration xDI added my previous post for Shadowstep.Stealth and retargeting are different things. The only form of retargeting we had before Mirage was taunt. And i don't think Mirror Images needed that feature at all.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream.

Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5"

AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief.

Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description.

The mobility part was not.

Chop at mobility and beef up dueling.

Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore.

Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were.

The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility.

Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either.

Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are:
  1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless).
  2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.
  3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release.
  4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style.
  5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again.
  6. IH should be considered to be baseline, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here).
  7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed).

That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since game pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi.

According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead.

When did I said that axe ambush is a thing ?You say that power ambush are more skilled than the condi versions. I just write to you that it's not the case.

GS is a weapon who come with no sustain skills in it. When you look at meta weapon, most of them has a last 1 skill to sustain or they give sustain by class mechanics (nec.). Even longbow ranger have stealth. This alone explain why power mesmer is so hard to make it work because you are facing class who has at least weapons with 1 tempo skill on each weapon swap. Skill has nothing to do there it's pure viability. Just compare it to other class similar weapons used in meta, you should see that they all give not only damage or they give sustain by class mechanics (the evade on war GS explain at 50% why it's a meta weapon for ages, the other 50% is the mobility.).Added to that, dev has to balanced mesmers taking into account that they can have 2 weapon set with evade frame on it, so they can't balance a spec who can sustain well with GS by not making an op survival if mesmer take other weapons.If tomorrow they put a 0.45 sec block on mind stab for example like whirlwind attack but being static during the evade, you should see more GS uses.It's mirage independant yes but it explain imo much things.It's not a disagree discussion, you assert false things. I don't react every posts you defends your "skills" visions but here it's just no true, even taking apart the subjective part.

The current condi burst combo is :Torch 4 -> blink/jaunt-> sword3 (-> sword ambush) -> torch 5 + F2. Then you can follow with axe swap -> 5 pistol -> 2 axes -> 3 axes (with a f3 rupt during the cycle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal/clear.).The historic power burst combo is :Torch -> 2GS -> blink/jaunt -> F3 -> F1. Then you can follow with sword swap -> 3 sword -> 2 sword -> sword autos (with sword ambush during the ccle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal.).

With of course rotations adapted to opponents/situation. So no the power version is clearly not skilled++ compared to the condi version on top of that you can pressure from range during no burst phases which is not possible with a full melee condi build.

Agreed about detargeting mechanics that should be removed :
  • It's confusing to new players and make they hate illusions more than before.
  • it's unefficient versus good players.
  • it's unusefull versus aoe spam in general.

About axe 3 they could start to make it reliable because it's countered by just moving... Imagine a gard's leap of faith failed because the opponent is moving...

Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy. It should also give the +50% hp on illusions back if we want to make chrono viable or give a similar trait in chrono.

Not condi ambush but clone auto shouldn't output any condi to be on par with direct damage. They should do this in 2015 instead of removing clones on death traits.Last condi mirage meta build before the last rework was about letting clone autoing, not even ambush. IH wasn't used to ambush but to save clones from AOE last season.Condi ambush should do condi damage the same power ambush should do power damage, particulary considering the obvious animation on thoses.

Why mirage is played is :
  • Mobility : sword ambush, jaunt. Renforced by the 50% nerf on core manipulation superspeed.
  • Condi clear : EM, jaunt.

It's the mesmer spec who give the most mobility & survavibility which is what is needed as long as mesmer role is map control around portal.Meanwhile an equivalent core spec would drop damage and mobility if taking inspiration thanks to inspiration condi clear counterpart = if you condi clear with shatter, you can't burst. Or drop condiclear and mobility if taking chaos or duelling. (Which is also why I disagree about you opinion on inspiration and chaos being more carry line than mirage.)

The Condimirage build has a similar base combo than a core shatter played without gs true (except of the axe it is more a core build anyway, Mirage mostly only adds some passive sustain and more mobility but nothing that would turn it into a Mirage specific playstyle) it is totally different to a Powermirage played on max potential using the IH/ambush mechanic active to combo as it should be. My balance suggestion would give Condimirage a more interesting, more skilled, more active way of playing, in particular skilled Mesmer player should be happy about to get.

It's exactly the same currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee.The mobility is the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core is the mobility.If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play.

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storm.3120

storm.3120

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@viquing.8254 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream.

Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5"

AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief.

Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description.

The mobility part was not.

Chop at mobility and beef up dueling.

Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore.

Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were.

The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility.

Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either.

Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are:
  1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless).
  2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.
  3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release.
  4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style.
  5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again.
  6. IH should be considered to be baseline, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here).
  7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed).

That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since game pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi.

According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead.

When did I said that axe ambush is a thing ?You say that power ambush are more skilled than the condi versions. I just write to you that it's not the case.

GS is a weapon who come with no sustain skills in it. When you look at meta weapon, most of them has a last 1 skill to sustain or they give sustain by class mechanics (nec.). Even longbow ranger have stealth. This alone explain why power mesmer is so hard to make it work because you are facing class who has at least weapons with 1 tempo skill on each weapon swap. Skill has nothing to do there it's pure viability. Just compare it to other class similar weapons used in meta, you should see that they all give not only damage or they give sustain by class mechanics (the evade on war GS explain at 50% why it's a meta weapon for ages, the other 50% is the mobility.).Added to that, dev has to balanced mesmers taking into account that they can have 2 weapon set with evade frame on it, so they can't balance a spec who can sustain well with GS by not making an op survival if mesmer take other weapons.If tomorrow they put a 0.45 sec block on mind stab for example like whirlwind attack but being static during the evade, you should see more GS uses.It's mirage independant yes but it explain imo much things.It's not a disagree discussion, you assert false things. I don't react every posts you defends your "skills" visions but here it's just no true, even taking apart the subjective part.

The current condi burst combo is :Torch 4 -> blink/jaunt-> sword3 (-> sword ambush) -> torch 5 + F2. Then you can follow with axe swap -> 5 pistol -> 2 axes -> 3 axes (with a f3 rupt during the cycle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal/clear.).The historic power burst combo is :Torch -> 2GS -> blink/jaunt -> F3 -> F1. Then you can follow with sword swap -> 3 sword -> 2 sword -> sword autos (with sword ambush during the ccle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal.).

With of course rotations adapted to opponents/situation. So no the power version is clearly not skilled++ compared to the condi version on top of that you can pressure from range during no burst phases which is not possible with a full melee condi build.

Agreed about detargeting mechanics that should be removed :
  • It's confusing to new players and make they hate illusions more than before.
  • it's unefficient versus good players.
  • it's unusefull versus aoe spam in general.

About axe 3 they could start to make it reliable because it's countered by just moving... Imagine a gard's leap of faith failed because the opponent is moving...

Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy. It should also give the +50% hp on illusions back if we want to make chrono viable or give a similar trait in chrono.

Not condi ambush but clone auto shouldn't output any condi to be on par with direct damage. They should do this in 2015 instead of removing clones on death traits.Last condi mirage meta build before the last rework was about letting clone autoing, not even ambush. IH wasn't used to ambush but to save clones from AOE last season.Condi ambush should do condi damage the same power ambush should do power damage, particulary considering the obvious animation on thoses.

Why mirage is played is :
  • Mobility : sword ambush, jaunt. Renforced by the 50% nerf on core manipulation superspeed.
  • Condi clear : EM, jaunt.

It's the mesmer spec who give the most mobility & survavibility which is what is needed as long as mesmer role is map control around portal.Meanwhile an equivalent core spec would drop damage and mobility if taking inspiration thanks to inspiration condi clear counterpart = if you condi clear with shatter, you can't burst. Or drop condiclear and mobility if taking chaos or duelling. (Which is also why I disagree about you opinion on inspiration and chaos being more carry line than mirage.)

The Condimirage build has a similar base combo than a core shatter played without gs true (except of the axe it is more a core build anyway, Mirage mostly only adds some passive sustain and more mobility but nothing that would turn it into a Mirage specific playstyle) it is totally different to a Powermirage played on max potential using the IH/ambush mechanic active to combo as it should be. My balance suggestion would give Condimirage a more interesting, more skilled, more active way of playing, in particular skilled Mesmer player should be happy about to get.

It's
exactly the same
currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee.The mobility
is
the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core
is
the mobility.
If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play
.That bold parts, I told him that alrdy before. Power mirage spammnig ambush is no different and by far equally braindead/unskilled as condi mirage, especially these random clones on sword randomly proc'ing power block, as you noticed, thats random interrupt on clones, MIRAGE THRURST has trouble hitting its target most of times even, add to this latency and you cant even use it right away but after a short delay.Thats a facepalm tbh
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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@viquing.8254 said:

It's exactly the same currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee.The mobility is the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core is the mobility.If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play.

No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones).

Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right.

The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain).

My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic.

And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added.Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here.

@Odik.4587 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream.

Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5"

AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief.

Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description.

The mobility part was not.

Chop at mobility and beef up dueling.

Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore.

Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were.

The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility.

Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either.

Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are:
  1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless).
  2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.
  3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release.
  4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style.
  5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again.
  6. IH should be considered to be baseline, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here).
  7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed).

That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since game pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi.

According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead.

When did I said that axe ambush is a thing ?You say that power ambush are more skilled than the condi versions. I just write to you that it's not the case.

GS is a weapon who come with no sustain skills in it. When you look at meta weapon, most of them has a last 1 skill to sustain or they give sustain by class mechanics (nec.). Even longbow ranger have stealth. This alone explain why power mesmer is so hard to make it work because you are facing class who has at least weapons with 1 tempo skill on each weapon swap. Skill has nothing to do there it's pure viability. Just compare it to other class similar weapons used in meta, you should see that they all give not only damage or they give sustain by class mechanics (the evade on war GS explain at 50% why it's a meta weapon for ages, the other 50% is the mobility.).Added to that, dev has to balanced mesmers taking into account that they can have 2 weapon set with evade frame on it, so they can't balance a spec who can sustain well with GS by not making an op survival if mesmer take other weapons.If tomorrow they put a 0.45 sec block on mind stab for example like whirlwind attack but being static during the evade, you should see more GS uses.It's mirage independant yes but it explain imo much things.It's not a disagree discussion, you assert false things. I don't react every posts you defends your "skills" visions but here it's just no true, even taking apart the subjective part.

The current condi burst combo is :Torch 4 -> blink/jaunt-> sword3 (-> sword ambush) -> torch 5 + F2. Then you can follow with axe swap -> 5 pistol -> 2 axes -> 3 axes (with a f3 rupt during the cycle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal/clear.).The historic power burst combo is :Torch -> 2GS -> blink/jaunt -> F3 -> F1. Then you can follow with sword swap -> 3 sword -> 2 sword -> sword autos (with sword ambush during the ccle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal.).

With of course rotations adapted to opponents/situation. So no the power version is clearly not skilled++ compared to the condi version on top of that you can pressure from range during no burst phases which is not possible with a full melee condi build.

Agreed about detargeting mechanics that should be removed :
  • It's confusing to new players and make they hate illusions more than before.
  • it's unefficient versus good players.
  • it's unusefull versus aoe spam in general.

About axe 3 they could start to make it reliable because it's countered by just moving... Imagine a gard's leap of faith failed because the opponent is moving...

Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy. It should also give the +50% hp on illusions back if we want to make chrono viable or give a similar trait in chrono.

Not condi ambush but clone auto shouldn't output any condi to be on par with direct damage. They should do this in 2015 instead of removing clones on death traits.Last condi mirage meta build before the last rework was about letting clone autoing, not even ambush. IH wasn't used to ambush but to save clones from AOE last season.Condi ambush should do condi damage the same power ambush should do power damage, particulary considering the obvious animation on thoses.

Why mirage is played is :
  • Mobility : sword ambush, jaunt. Renforced by the 50% nerf on core manipulation superspeed.
  • Condi clear : EM, jaunt.

It's the mesmer spec who give the most mobility & survavibility which is what is needed as long as mesmer role is map control around portal.Meanwhile an equivalent core spec would drop damage and mobility if taking inspiration thanks to inspiration condi clear counterpart = if you condi clear with shatter, you can't burst. Or drop condiclear and mobility if taking chaos or duelling. (Which is also why I disagree about you opinion on inspiration and chaos being more carry line than mirage.)

The Condimirage build has a similar base combo than a core shatter played without gs true (except of the axe it is more a core build anyway, Mirage mostly only adds some passive sustain and more mobility but nothing that would turn it into a Mirage specific playstyle) it is totally different to a Powermirage played on max potential using the IH/ambush mechanic active to combo as it should be. My balance suggestion would give Condimirage a more interesting, more skilled, more active way of playing, in particular skilled Mesmer player should be happy about to get.

It's
exactly the same
currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee.The mobility
is
the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core
is
the mobility.
If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play
.That bold parts, I told him that alrdy before. Power mirage spammnig ambush is no different and by far equally braindead/unskilled as condi mirage, especially these random clones on sword randomly proc'ing power block, as you noticed, thats random interrupt on clones, MIRAGE THRURST has trouble hitting its target most of times even, add to this latency and you cant even use it right away but after a short delay.Thats a facepalm tbh

When you get random interupted on heal from a Mirage that is dodging defensive or for leaping away while you know and can even see the slow and well animated clone leap than it is your missplay. You literally even can just out move that leap if you need to use your heal so badly in exactly that moment. As said ofc every dodge trait has an passive aspect of activating also when the player is just dodging to avoid an attack and doesn't think about an well timed and tactical outplay move during that. But the difference between power and condi is, that you at least CAN use that mechanic active while condi ambushes don't give the possibility nor the incentive to use that active. Powermirage even is in NEED to combo with ambushes from sword and gs (not only for interrupt purposes, it is needed for the whole dmg application, Powermriage needs to combo with ambushes, just as it should be, while Condimirage can just dodge pure defensive and hope for some passive dmg application from clones during that). If you as Mesmer mains cannot see such simple logical and obvious stuff than it is rly not my problem. But i am not surpised why most ppl suck on Powermirage anymore.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@"Odik.4587" said:

I will help you here - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Advance its better than random teleport and also has a target break on it! Also the blind too! You should start a nerf crusade nao! xD

Yes that skill should lose the retargeting feature too and for that could be made more near to Thief's Shadowstep in terms of range for example. But what makes IA that oppressive is the retargeting combined with the random position change and random clone replacement. As already mentioned that is good but also bad for the Mesmer itself. But it is for sure bad for any skilful counterplay and mind gaming. Stealth makes me still able to predict the movement of the Thief or Mesmer, retargeting with random position change has no counterplay and mind gaming included anymore. Combined with the dodge it is even an invuln part stealth does not have.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Quadox.7834 Truth has been spoken.sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it.And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part.But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what.

Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more.

Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible.

As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much is thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress).

To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow 5. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage.

There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile.

@UNOwen.7132If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes.

Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease.

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storm.3120

storm.3120

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Just commenting on IA thing. IA even currently is trash, CD too high and random teleport, most of the times to traps, aoe and whatnot.

@Bazsi.2734 said:Buff thief!

Nerf mesmer!Shhhh, dont let him know how stupid his suggestion is.On the thread:Contorary what Sind said that thief is awful.2 best NA teams run a thief, in the finals team without a thief got cucked .(EU) Team with a mirage instead of a thief got decapped all game long despite them getting more kills, still lost by 200 points or so.Against 5 mender memers his only presence made 1 of them AFK close the entire game until he got killed in 1x2 by thief +1 and them getting a triple cap and put an enemy team in position where if they dont go for the lord, they would lose.So ye, buff thief, it should have the best mobility, highest damage and some sustainability to not die when focused, seems perfect to me :)

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Quadox.7834

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@bravan.3876 said:

It's
exactly the same
currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee.The mobility
is
the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core
is
the mobility.If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play.

No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones).

Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right.

The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain).

My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic.

And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added.Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here.

@"UNOwen.7132" said:I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream.

Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5"

AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief.

Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description.

The mobility part was not.

Chop at mobility and beef up dueling.

Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore.

Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were.

The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility.

Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either.

Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are:
  1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless).
  2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd.
  3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release.
  4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style.
  5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again.
  6. IH should be considered to be baseline, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here).
  7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed).

That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since game pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi.

According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead.

When did I said that axe ambush is a thing ?You say that power ambush are more skilled than the condi versions. I just write to you that it's not the case.

GS is a weapon who come with no sustain skills in it. When you look at meta weapon, most of them has a last 1 skill to sustain or they give sustain by class mechanics (nec.). Even longbow ranger have stealth. This alone explain why power mesmer is so hard to make it work because you are facing class who has at least weapons with 1 tempo skill on each weapon swap. Skill has nothing to do there it's pure viability. Just compare it to other class similar weapons used in meta, you should see that they all give not only damage or they give sustain by class mechanics (the evade on war GS explain at 50% why it's a meta weapon for ages, the other 50% is the mobility.).Added to that, dev has to balanced mesmers taking into account that they can have 2 weapon set with evade frame on it, so they can't balance a spec who can sustain well with GS by not making an op survival if mesmer take other weapons.If tomorrow they put a 0.45 sec block on mind stab for example like whirlwind attack but being static during the evade, you should see more GS uses.It's mirage independant yes but it explain imo much things.It's not a disagree discussion, you assert false things. I don't react every posts you defends your "skills" visions but here it's just no true, even taking apart the subjective part.

The current condi burst combo is :Torch 4 -> blink/jaunt-> sword3 (-> sword ambush) -> torch 5 + F2. Then you can follow with axe swap -> 5 pistol -> 2 axes -> 3 axes (with a f3 rupt during the cycle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal/clear.).The historic power burst combo is :Torch -> 2GS -> blink/jaunt -> F3 -> F1. Then you can follow with sword swap -> 3 sword -> 2 sword -> sword autos (with sword ambush during the ccle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal.).

With of course rotations adapted to opponents/situation. So no the power version is clearly not skilled++ compared to the condi version on top of that you can pressure from range during no burst phases which is not possible with a full melee condi build.

Agreed about detargeting mechanics that should be removed :
  • It's confusing to new players and make they hate illusions more than before.
  • it's unefficient versus good players.
  • it's unusefull versus aoe spam in general.

About axe 3 they could start to make it reliable because it's countered by just moving... Imagine a gard's leap of faith failed because the opponent is moving...

Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy. It should also give the +50% hp on illusions back if we want to make chrono viable or give a similar trait in chrono.

Not condi ambush but clone auto shouldn't output any condi to be on par with direct damage. They should do this in 2015 instead of removing clones on death traits.Last condi mirage meta build before the last rework was about letting clone autoing, not even ambush. IH wasn't used to ambush but to save clones from AOE last season.Condi ambush should do condi damage the same power ambush should do power damage, particulary considering the obvious animation on thoses.

Why mirage is played is :
  • Mobility : sword ambush, jaunt. Renforced by the 50% nerf on core manipulation superspeed.
  • Condi clear : EM, jaunt.

It's the mesmer spec who give the most mobility & survavibility which is what is needed as long as mesmer role is map control around portal.Meanwhile an equivalent core spec would drop damage and mobility if taking inspiration thanks to inspiration condi clear counterpart = if you condi clear with shatter, you can't burst. Or drop condiclear and mobility if taking chaos or duelling. (Which is also why I disagree about you opinion on inspiration and chaos being more carry line than mirage.)

The Condimirage build has a similar base combo than a core shatter played without gs true (except of the axe it is more a core build anyway, Mirage mostly only adds some passive sustain and more mobility but nothing that would turn it into a Mirage specific playstyle) it is totally different to a Powermirage played on max potential using the IH/ambush mechanic active to combo as it should be. My balance suggestion would give Condimirage a more interesting, more skilled, more active way of playing, in particular skilled Mesmer player should be happy about to get.

It's
exactly the same
currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee.The mobility
is
the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core
is
the mobility.
If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play
.That bold parts, I told him that alrdy before. Power mirage spammnig ambush is no different and by far equally braindead/unskilled as condi mirage, especially these random clones on sword randomly proc'ing power block, as you noticed, thats random interrupt on clones, MIRAGE THRURST has trouble hitting its target most of times even, add to this latency and you cant even use it right away but after a short delay.Thats a facepalm tbh

When you get random interupted on heal from a Mirage that is dodging defensive or for leaping away while you know and can even see the slow and well animated clone leap than it is your missplay. You literally even can just out move that leap if you need to use your heal so badly in exactly that moment. As said ofc every dodge trait has an passive aspect of activating also when the player is just dodging to avoid an attack and doesn't think about an well timed and tactical outplay move during that. But the difference between power and condi is, that you at least CAN use that mechanic active while condi ambushes don't give the possibility nor the incentive to use that active. Powermirage even is in NEED to combo with ambushes from sword and gs (not only for interrupt purposes, it is needed for the whole dmg application, Powermriage needs to combo with ambushes, just as it should be, while Condimirage can just dodge pure defensive and hope for some passive dmg application from clones during that). If you as Mesmer mains cannot see such simple logical and obvious stuff than it is rly not my problem. But i am not surpised why most ppl suck on Powermirage anymore.

so what would you change condi ambushes to?

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@Odik.4587 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Just commenting on IA thing. IA even currently is trash, CD too high and random teleport, most of the times to traps, aoe and whatnot.

@Bazsi.2734 said:Buff thief!

Nerf mesmer!Shhhh, dont let him know how stupid his suggestion is.I even valued the fact that the randomness is also bad for the Mesmer itself but it is even more bad for the opponent. All in all it is a skill should just not exist in its current state. And since a rework of the whole retargeting mechanic is unlikely a 50s cd is still justified because of the big value it still has despite the randomness (what is bad and good for the Mesmer at same time, good for the Mesmer because it take away any mind game and coutnerplay option form the opponent, what is just unhealthy as mechanic, is that rly so hard to understand?)
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storm.3120

storm.3120

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@bravan.3876Thats pointless to discuss, you cant differ accident-random rewards from the trait from a skillful use of it, as @"viquing.8254" said you cant interrpt anything on purpse with it, if you do, it was random coincidence that was made by the clone you produced without intention to do so and most likely evaded (and triggered its ambush) for different purpose.Throwing insult "you suck at power mirage" because you cant understand simple thing? I bet even now, I would have no trouble destroy you with said power mirage :D

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Quadox.7834

Quadox.7834

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken.sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it.And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part.But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what.

Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more.
  1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage.
  2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though).

Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible.

As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much
is
thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress).Next thief espec add shield, make steal melee aoe and remove weaponswap, ez solved.

To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow
  1. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage.

There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile.

@UNOwen.7132If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes.

Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease.

Zzzz

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Lincolnbeard.1735

Lincolnbeard.1735

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Just commenting on IA thing. IA even currently is trash, CD too high and random teleport, most of the times to traps, aoe and whatnot.

@Bazsi.2734 said:Buff thief!

Nerf mesmer!Shhhh, dont let him know how stupid his suggestion is.I even valued the fact that the randomness is also bad for the Mesmer itself but it is even more bad for the opponent. All in all it is a skill should just not exist in its current state. And since a rework of the whole retargeting mechanic is unlikely a 50s cd is still justified because of the big value it still has despite the randomness (what is bad and good for the Mesmer at same time, good for the Mesmer because it take away any mind game and coutnerplay option form the opponent, what is just unhealthy as mechanic, is that rly so hard to understand?)

While I agree that the skill shouldn't exist I believe so because of the randomness.And I disagree, the randomness is worse for mesmer because of the previous reasons you'll end up, more than half the times, in the worst spot possible.

As for mirage advance is trash, not only due to range but also because the cast time doesnt allow any combo. Its like the shadowstep re.ta. rd cousin.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Quadox.7834 Truth has been spoken.sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it.And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part.But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what.

Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more.
  1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage.
  2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though).

Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to.

Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible.

As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much
is
thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress).Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved.

That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a lot relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec.

To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow
  1. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage.

There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile.

@UNOwen.7132If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes.

Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease.
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