Chronomancers state in Pvp/WvW

[bravan.3876]

No clue and i also don't care, where you get the impression from that i do not play the game, even more than you and Lincoln together (ranked as Ats matches), at least periodically, but if you think my knowledge and experience only comes from theoretical thinking and imaginations then you are delusional as hell.

I am out here. Think what you want, as said it is your loss and limitation not mine.

Buff Thief!

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:us all stop wasting time with playing and giving ideas for better balance on forum "

Alright.1 - introduce some kind of energy management, rework all skills.2 - delete initiative, introduce cds and rework thief skills3 - introduce cds to revenant utilities, rework skills and remove the get 50% of energy back on legend swap.4 - delete the evades imbued on weapon skills.5 - remove a bunch of ccs and all stability from game.6 - remove all passives and all rng.7 - quickness makes you take double damage.8 - power block gets a CD (it already has but w/e)9 - conditions stack to a max amount of damage (example: 3k damage it doesn't matter how many condis and how much stacks you have) the damage that isn't ticking negates regen and healing.

Of course something like this will never happen, hence why there is no reason to lose timetrying to get a game that was never skill demanding to change that.

You will change the game completely to something else, into a completely different game you like more (maybe GW1?) you are not trying to balance the current GW2 game by keepeing it mechanics. That is not constructive. Btw Interrupt traits don't need a cd just like ICDs on dodge traits are nonsense. The interrupt need is already the limitation. Some of your suggestions could be considered (the quickness one sounds interesting on the first view for example) but stuff like your Thief suggestions are just biased and do not accept GW2 in its nature at all.

It's not biased, it's because GW2 nature doesn't allow for skilled play. Initiative + no cds it's a failed design.No energy management/no cd management is a ridiculous concept that no other mmo company fell into because you can see from a thousand miles it's trash.This game is as much skill demanding as a dynasty warriors game.

Interrupt don't represent any skill in GW2 because GW2 is a spam game, you'll always interrupt something and will always get profit from it, you don't need to time jackkitten thus all skill which interrupts have in other games is removed.How to solve this? 1 - energy management so players don't spam all their arsenal. 2 - interrupt traits with ICD so you actually be rewarded by interrupting crucial skills.

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:us all stop wasting time with playing and giving ideas for better balance on forum "

Alright.1 - introduce some kind of energy management, rework all skills.2 - delete initiative, introduce cds and rework thief skills3 - introduce cds to revenant utilities, rework skills and remove the get 50% of energy back on legend swap.4 - delete the evades imbued on weapon skills.5 - remove a bunch of ccs and all stability from game.6 - remove all passives and all rng.7 - quickness makes you take double damage.8 - power block gets a CD (it already has but w/e)9 - conditions stack to a max amount of damage (example: 3k damage it doesn't matter how many condis and how much stacks you have) the damage that isn't ticking negates regen and healing.

Of course something like this will never happen, hence why there is no reason to lose timetrying to get a game that was never skill demanding to change that.

You will change the game completely to something else, into a completely different game you like more (maybe GW1?) you are not trying to balance the current GW2 game by keepeing it mechanics. That is not constructive. Btw Interrupt traits don't need a cd just like ICDs on dodge traits are nonsense. The interrupt need is already the limitation. Some of your suggestions could be considered (the quickness one sounds interesting on the first view for example) but stuff like your Thief suggestions are just biased and do not accept GW2 in its nature at all.

It's not biased, it's because GW2 nature doesn't allow for skilled play. Initiative + no cds it's a failed design.No energy management/no cd management is a ridiculous concept that no other mmo company fell into because you can see from a thousand miles it's trash.This game is as much skill demanding as a dynasty warriors game.

Interrupt don't represent any skill in GW2 because GW2 is a spam game, you'll always interrupt something and will always get profit from it, you don't need to time jackkitten thus all skill which interrupts have in other games is removed.How to solve this? 1 - energy management so players don't spam all their arsenal. 2 - interrupt traits with ICD so you actually be rewarded by interrupting crucial skills.

Interrupts already have cd by not having infinite interrupt tools. The tools to interrupt already have cd, you want to add an invisble ICD on traits will make it totally clunky and random for the player and the opponent. That will actually kill skill ceiling not higher it. That is rly a stupid idea. I disagree to Thief initiative being low skill per se. It is just another form of ressource management.Lucky interrupting autoattacks with a short daze with something like PB, means without having broken traits (like old CI or stun on daze trait) will not win you any fight, means you need to use it skilled and on purpose hitting keyskills at good moments to win. There is a little reward from weakness and the poor dmg when only interrupting autoattacks (and in a pressured moment it can make sense to interrupt an autoattack for the weakness, what then is also a skilled and tactical play) but the skillful part is, that it is not enough to win a fight in 99% of the cases just as a lucky high crit only is a killer in 1% of all cases when luckily happen at a very crucial moment. Mesmers simple spamming their Mantra are laughable to fight. They are easy targets, impactless and fast to kill, even when they accidently hit a keyskill sometimes. I think you confuse interrupts tools with lock down cc skills. The current state of random spammable unblockable often undodgeable hard cc is indeed a problem but those are no interrupt builds. Like LR Ele is not an interrupt build.

If GW2 rly would be as skillless as you say, you would not rly see any difference between a bad and a good player. I agree that the difference between a bad and a good player on most meta builds is smaller than it should be (for all the reasons i named a lot myself, incl the analysis of active-passive) but even there you still can see a difference. On Powershattermesmer (not only interrupt and no matter what elite spec/core) the difference between a bad and a good Mesmer is like heaven and hell. Even between good and top is still very big. And Powermes is not the only example, on other classes you have builds with also big differences. The basic GW2 mechanics clearly allow skillful distinctions between players and has skill cieling/ floor included. Just that Anet balance doesn't bring it to a state where it is near the optimum (and i am not talking about making all classes equally strong, that is impossible anyway, there will always be some stuff stronger or more useful in specific roles or gamemodes, i just talk about a skill requirement lvl all over the board that has some minimum skill floor and higher skill ceiling than currently and that for all classes and that is possible without turning GW2 in a completely different game).

[zealex.9410]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:chrono has plenty of issues.1 Chronophantasma, it forces phantasms to be medicore -> feelsbadman. No phantasm is allowed to have good utility due to this trait, this is why disenchanter and taunt phantasms are super bad.2 Danger time -> in pve its impossible to keep uptime on this thing without dedicated team, without it chrono is weak, with it its too strong. And in pvp all it does is allowing kitten 1shots.3 Csplit is such a fun idea, and its so kitten bad for the entire class. Effect is SUPER powerfull to the point where entire class has to revolve around it, and with insane cd of 105 it makes the spec lacluster without it and OP with it. whats the peak dps during csplit in pve? 70k? lol.4 No disort -> free kill for any class, there is a reason why disort exists, and to top it off with chrono F3 not self shattering you cant even f3 defensively. AND chrono has no good defensive traits, its defensive downgrade with questionable offensive power and utility.Csplit needs to be reworked, danger time needs to be change and chronophantasma needs to be nerfed. In turn chrono needs to get alot of buffs, along with mesmer overall. Who knows, mb when chrono is no longer to 4x cast phantasms then some of the kitten ones like defender/disenchanger can be buffed to usability ?One can dream

How do you rework csplit, keep it fun and also balance it?

[apharma.3741]

"I don't want to talk about it"

If you're reading this, that was funny, thanks for the comment.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:chrono has plenty of issues.1 Chronophantasma, it forces phantasms to be medicore -> feelsbadman. No phantasm is allowed to have good utility due to this trait, this is why disenchanter and taunt phantasms are super bad.2 Danger time -> in pve its impossible to keep uptime on this thing without dedicated team, without it chrono is weak, with it its too strong. And in pvp all it does is allowing kitten 1shots.3 Csplit is such a fun idea, and its so kitten bad for the entire class. Effect is SUPER powerfull to the point where entire class has to revolve around it, and with insane cd of 105 it makes the spec lacluster without it and OP with it. whats the peak dps during csplit in pve? 70k? lol.4 No disort -> free kill for any class, there is a reason why disort exists, and to top it off with chrono F3 not self shattering you cant even f3 defensively. AND chrono has no good defensive traits, its defensive downgrade with questionable offensive power and utility.Csplit needs to be reworked, danger time needs to be change and chronophantasma needs to be nerfed. In turn chrono needs to get alot of buffs, along with mesmer overall. Who knows, mb when chrono is no longer to 4x cast phantasms then some of the kitten ones like defender/disenchanger can be buffed to usability ?One can dream

How do you rework csplit, keep it fun and also balance it?

lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

[Tayga.3192]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

I think 30s-35s cd baseline with 33% of used skills is a good idea. This way, Moa + CS = 94.4s cooldown which is understandable. This way, your small skills like gs2 etc won't affect CS that much.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

I think 30s-35s cd baseline with 33% of used skills is a good idea. This way, Moa + CS = 94.4s cooldown which is understandable. This way, your small skills like gs2 etc won't affect CS that much.

They could juggle with numbers, numbers can always be fine tuned. Most important thing is to make the idea actually have a reason to exist.They could make every skill add flat CD + % of their cooldown for example, so mesmer doesnt bombard people with 5+ low cd skills for example. Would prevent from double GS bursting or at least put a real cooldown on it. Just brainstorming, in reality noting will change and chrono will remain the worst spec in the game, as it was decided to be couple of months ago.

[apharma.3741]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

I think 30s-35s cd baseline with 33% of used skills is a good idea. This way, Moa + CS = 94.4s cooldown which is understandable. This way, your small skills like gs2 etc won't affect CS that much.

They could juggle with numbers, numbers can always be fine tuned. Most important thing is to make the idea actually have a reason to exist.They could make every skill add flat CD + % of their cooldown for example, so mesmer doesnt bombard people with 5+ low cd skills for example. Would prevent from double GS bursting or at least put a real cooldown on it. Just brainstorming, in reality noting will change and chrono will remain the worst spec in the game, as it was decided to be couple of months ago.

So basically your idea is to give chrono free mimic but for multiple skills not just 1. You still run foul of the double up problem where if any skill is worth doubling up on it's going to always be doubled up on which is the biggest problem with CS in every game mode. It's the reason it had to be nerfed in PvE, PvP and WvW into the current state of not being able to use it without clones because no matter the skill if it's strong it's worth doubling up on and the entire class has to suffer for it.

Better off making CS grant alacrity, has counterplay and you can actually buff it with concentration/improved alacrity without worrying about it utterly shattering all balance by cool down. Or we can be SUPER lazy and do the whole steal a mechanic from another class and make CS work like Improvisation except it only works on utilities that are on cool down.

[bravan.3876]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

I think 30s-35s cd baseline with 33% of used skills is a good idea. This way, Moa + CS = 94.4s cooldown which is understandable. This way, your small skills like gs2 etc won't affect CS that much.

They could juggle with numbers, numbers can always be fine tuned. Most important thing is to make the idea actually have a reason to exist.They could make every skill add flat CD + % of their cooldown for example, so mesmer doesnt bombard people with 5+ low cd skills for example. Would prevent from double GS bursting or at least put a real cooldown on it. Just brainstorming, in reality noting will change and chrono will remain the worst spec in the game, as it was decided to be couple of months ago.

So basically your idea is to give chrono free mimic but for multiple skills not just 1. You still run foul of the double up problem where if any skill is worth doubling up on it's going to always be doubled up on which is the biggest problem with CS in every game mode. It's the reason it had to be nerfed in PvE, PvP and WvW into the current state of not being able to use it without clones because no matter the skill if it's strong it's worth doubling up on and the entire class has to suffer for it.

Better off making CS grant alacrity, has counterplay and you can actually buff it with concentration/improved alacrity without worrying about it utterly shattering all balance by cool down. Or we can be SUPER lazy and do the whole steal a mechanic from another class and make CS work like Improvisation except it only works on utilities that are on cool down.

Why you guys make it that complicated? When something gets more cds in his skill kit you just have to lower the power lvl of the skill ensemble with more cds by lowering the power lvl of each single skill compared to a power lvl of a single skill in a skill ensemble with less cds available. Simple stat penalty as they did with Scrapper are more than enough to trade off a more in cds a mechanic like CS adds. Means when Chrono can do a double gs burst the 2 bursts should have around 130% of the impact from a single Core Mesmer burst (and not like 200% as it was pre trade off), more than 100% from core simply to reward the higher skill requirement a little bit. It is the same with Fb tomes. Deleting or contradicting the mechanic itself or contradicting underlying basic mechanics to trade off or nerf elites is bad and not needed for a good balance.

A Chrono trade off could be for example: -100 power, -50 vita, -50 toughness in addition to the shatter f1,f2 rework (maybe add a rework to f4 to link the invuln duration to alacrity or quickness uptime on the Chrono or somehting like that and not to the number of clones up anymore). For that you put CS back on f5 , give IP back and f4 in a rework form back.

[apharma.3741]

@bravan.3876 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

I think 30s-35s cd baseline with 33% of used skills is a good idea. This way, Moa + CS = 94.4s cooldown which is understandable. This way, your small skills like gs2 etc won't affect CS that much.

They could juggle with numbers, numbers can always be fine tuned. Most important thing is to make the idea actually have a reason to exist.They could make every skill add flat CD + % of their cooldown for example, so mesmer doesnt bombard people with 5+ low cd skills for example. Would prevent from double GS bursting or at least put a real cooldown on it. Just brainstorming, in reality noting will change and chrono will remain the worst spec in the game, as it was decided to be couple of months ago.

So basically your idea is to give chrono free mimic but for multiple skills not just 1. You still run foul of the double up problem where if any skill is worth doubling up on it's going to always be doubled up on which is the biggest problem with CS in every game mode. It's the reason it had to be nerfed in PvE, PvP and WvW into the current state of not being able to use it without clones because no matter the skill if it's strong it's worth doubling up on and the entire class has to suffer for it.

Better off making CS grant alacrity, has counterplay and you can actually buff it with concentration/improved alacrity without worrying about it utterly shattering all balance by cool down. Or we can be SUPER lazy and do the whole steal a mechanic from another class and make CS work like Improvisation except it only works on utilities that are on cool down.

Why you guys make it that complicated? When something gets more cds in his skill kit you just have to lower the power lvl of the skill ensemble with more cds by lowering the power lvl of each single skill compared to a power lvl of a single skill in a skill ensemble with less cds available. Simple stat penalty as they did with Scrapper are more than enough to trade off a more in cds a mechanic like CS adds. Means when Chrono can do a double gs burst the 2 bursts should have around 130% of the impact from a single Core Mesmer burst (and not like 200% as it was pre trade off), more than 100% from core simply to reward the higher skill requirement a little bit. It is the same with Fb tomes. Deleting or contradicting the mechanic itself or contradicting underlying basic mechanics to trade off or nerf elites is bad and not needed for a good balance.

A Chrono trade off could be for example: -100 power, -50 vita, -50 toughness in addition to the shatter f1,f2 rework (maybe add a rework to f4 to link the invuln duration to alacrity or quickness uptime on the Chrono or somehting like that and not to the number of clones up anymore). For that you put CS back on f5 , give IP back and f4 in a rework form back.

This is the least insightful post I've seen you make. You literally miss the problem which is that continuum split doubles up on abilities (read: effects) which means that you can't simply give -300 power and call it a day because now the double burst hits for 130%. You miss that conditions aren't affected by this, so let's do -300 condition damage, you miss that boons aren't affected by this, so let's add -300 concentration etc etc. So you end up with an elite spec several hundred stat points down just equipping the elite spec and you don't have to be a genius to figure out it would feel terrible to play even with IP and distortion back.

This is also ignoring the other implications which is how do you balance something as outrageously big as time warp or moa? If their cool downs are lower than continuum split then you can always effectively gain double the skill just by having chronomancer, so their cool down has to be higher than continuum split to punish use outside of continuum split which then causes the problem of them being useless on everything else. How do you deal with double (quadruple) summoning phantasms without nerfing them into irrelevance everywhere else and that's without mentioning the additional effects like disenchanter and defender that even doubled up can be over bearing.

Which leads me back to what I said at the start of the entire thread and a couple of years ago now, continuum split as it is now shouldn't exist. Either make it give alacrity so it's a small chunk off every cool down when you use F4 or give it the improv treatment that randomises it to some degree but leaves out elites and heal.

[Quadox.7834]

@apharma.3741 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

I think 30s-35s cd baseline with 33% of used skills is a good idea. This way, Moa + CS = 94.4s cooldown which is understandable. This way, your small skills like gs2 etc won't affect CS that much.

They could juggle with numbers, numbers can always be fine tuned. Most important thing is to make the idea actually have a reason to exist.They could make every skill add flat CD + % of their cooldown for example, so mesmer doesnt bombard people with 5+ low cd skills for example. Would prevent from double GS bursting or at least put a real cooldown on it. Just brainstorming, in reality noting will change and chrono will remain the worst spec in the game, as it was decided to be couple of months ago.

So basically your idea is to give chrono free mimic but for multiple skills not just 1. You still run foul of the double up problem where if any skill is worth doubling up on it's going to always be doubled up on which is the biggest problem with CS in every game mode. It's the reason it had to be nerfed in PvE, PvP and WvW into the current state of not being able to use it without clones because no matter the skill if it's strong it's worth doubling up on and the entire class has to suffer for it.

Better off making CS grant alacrity, has counterplay and you can actually buff it with concentration/improved alacrity without worrying about it utterly shattering all balance by cool down. Or we can be SUPER lazy and do the whole steal a mechanic from another class and make CS work like Improvisation except it only works on utilities that are on cool down.

Why you guys make it that complicated? When something gets more cds in his skill kit you just have to lower the power lvl of the skill ensemble with more cds by lowering the power lvl of each single skill compared to a power lvl of a single skill in a skill ensemble with less cds available. Simple stat penalty as they did with Scrapper are more than enough to trade off a more in cds a mechanic like CS adds. Means when Chrono can do a double gs burst the 2 bursts should have around 130% of the impact from a single Core Mesmer burst (and not like 200% as it was pre trade off), more than 100% from core simply to reward the higher skill requirement a little bit. It is the same with Fb tomes. Deleting or contradicting the mechanic itself or contradicting underlying basic mechanics to trade off or nerf elites is bad and not needed for a good balance.

A Chrono trade off could be for example: -100 power, -50 vita, -50 toughness in addition to the shatter f1,f2 rework (maybe add a rework to f4 to link the invuln duration to alacrity or quickness uptime on the Chrono or somehting like that and not to the number of clones up anymore). For that you put CS back on f5 , give IP back and f4 in a rework form back.

This is the least insightful post I've seen you make. You literally miss the problem which is that continuum split doubles up on abilities (read: effects) which means that you can't simply give -300 power and call it a day because now the double burst hits for 130%. You miss that conditions aren't affected by this, so let's do -300 condition damage, you miss that boons aren't affected by this, so let's add -300 concentration etc etc. So you end up with an elite spec several hundred stat points down just equipping the elite spec and you don't have to be a genius to figure out it would feel terrible to play even with IP and distortion back.

This is also ignoring the other implications which is how do you balance something as outrageously big as time warp or moa? If their cool downs are lower than continuum split then you can always effectively gain double the skill just by having chronomancer, so their cool down has to be higher than continuum split to punish use outside of continuum split which then causes the problem of them being useless on everything else. How do you deal with double (quadruple) summoning phantasms without nerfing them into irrelevance everywhere else and that's without mentioning the additional effects like disenchanter and defender that even doubled up can be over bearing.

Which leads me back to what I said at the start of the entire thread and a couple of years ago now, continuum split as it is now shouldn't exist. Either make it give alacrity so it's a small chunk off every cool down when you use F4 or give it the improv treatment that randomises it to some degree but leaves out elites and heal.

why was mirage used over chrono, even before IP removal, if cont spit is so powerful?

[bravan.3876]

@apharma.3741 The stat penalty were only examples and not how it exactly actually should look like, ofc -100 power would need to be an equal number for condi dmg and duration (i just have no clue atm how condi dmg scales so i didn't mention it explicit, and also the numbers were only examples, Anet has to fine adjust them to a balanced lvl, i just wanted to point out, that Chrono overall can be a bit more impactful than only core because it has a higher skill ceiling). True the cds of skills only offer utility effects and not quantifiable effects like dmg/ sustain you cannot balance out that way (at least not without converting them in value into some quantifiable equivalent), but you forget that giving up a core traitline is already a trade off for taking an elite, means an elite is allowed to offer something, even on hated Mesmer (or do you think like Anet, that elites on Mesmer needs to be downgrates?) xD And when you think about traiting a whole traitline only to get some lower cd elite skill, then taking any core traitline on Mesmer would still offer way more and would still be better. The CS duration is pretty short, consumes all clones and for that limits the usage of skills in numbers and the impact of shatters (less clones for follow up shatters after CS). It is not like you get double elite+double burst+double all utilities everytime you use CS and some utilities even get neutralized after CS ends (like teleports, means the only value they add is by a short position change to hit a burst what is balanced out by the stat penalty again).

Also in the end even Moa or Gravitywell can be converted in some countable equivalent for offensive or defensive power if needed.

[viquing.8254]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:chrono has plenty of issues.1 Chronophantasma, it forces phantasms to be medicore -> feelsbadman. No phantasm is allowed to have good utility due to this trait, this is why disenchanter and taunt phantasms are super bad.2 Danger time -> in pve its impossible to keep uptime on this thing without dedicated team, without it chrono is weak, with it its too strong. And in pvp all it does is allowing kitten 1shots.3 Csplit is such a fun idea, and its so kitten bad for the entire class. Effect is SUPER powerfull to the point where entire class has to revolve around it, and with insane cd of 105 it makes the spec lacluster without it and OP with it. whats the peak dps during csplit in pve? 70k? lol.4 No disort -> free kill for any class, there is a reason why disort exists, and to top it off with chrono F3 not self shattering you cant even f3 defensively. AND chrono has no good defensive traits, its defensive downgrade with questionable offensive power and utility.Csplit needs to be reworked, danger time needs to be change and chronophantasma needs to be nerfed. In turn chrono needs to get alot of buffs, along with mesmer overall. Who knows, mb when chrono is no longer to 4x cast phantasms then some of the kitten ones like defender/disenchanger can be buffed to usability ?One can dream

How do you rework csplit, keep it fun and also balance it?

Long time ago I was thinking about make it a pure defensive skill, which is currently very accurate if they left it as F4 replacement :CS no longer reset the CD.Instead it :

• Has longer duration fixed duration (independant from clones.).
• It heal a max amount of damage taken when you come back (concretly around 5k to compensate F4 remplacement.). This max limitation is to not make this skill a free full health refresh but a positionning skill.
• It give some movement speed during uses.
• Has the same CD as distortion.

Which mean it will be used to positioning/sustain more than to double skills. Which is way more easy to balance skills then than with the current CS.

[apharma.3741]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

I think 30s-35s cd baseline with 33% of used skills is a good idea. This way, Moa + CS = 94.4s cooldown which is understandable. This way, your small skills like gs2 etc won't affect CS that much.

They could juggle with numbers, numbers can always be fine tuned. Most important thing is to make the idea actually have a reason to exist.They could make every skill add flat CD + % of their cooldown for example, so mesmer doesnt bombard people with 5+ low cd skills for example. Would prevent from double GS bursting or at least put a real cooldown on it. Just brainstorming, in reality noting will change and chrono will remain the worst spec in the game, as it was decided to be couple of months ago.

So basically your idea is to give chrono free mimic but for multiple skills not just 1. You still run foul of the double up problem where if any skill is worth doubling up on it's going to always be doubled up on which is the biggest problem with CS in every game mode. It's the reason it had to be nerfed in PvE, PvP and WvW into the current state of not being able to use it without clones because no matter the skill if it's strong it's worth doubling up on and the entire class has to suffer for it.

Better off making CS grant alacrity, has counterplay and you can actually buff it with concentration/improved alacrity without worrying about it utterly shattering all balance by cool down. Or we can be SUPER lazy and do the whole steal a mechanic from another class and make CS work like Improvisation except it only works on utilities that are on cool down.

Why you guys make it that complicated? When something gets more cds in his skill kit you just have to lower the power lvl of the skill ensemble with more cds by lowering the power lvl of each single skill compared to a power lvl of a single skill in a skill ensemble with less cds available. Simple stat penalty as they did with Scrapper are more than enough to trade off a more in cds a mechanic like CS adds. Means when Chrono can do a double gs burst the 2 bursts should have around 130% of the impact from a single Core Mesmer burst (and not like 200% as it was pre trade off), more than 100% from core simply to reward the higher skill requirement a little bit. It is the same with Fb tomes. Deleting or contradicting the mechanic itself or contradicting underlying basic mechanics to trade off or nerf elites is bad and not needed for a good balance.

A Chrono trade off could be for example: -100 power, -50 vita, -50 toughness in addition to the shatter f1,f2 rework (maybe add a rework to f4 to link the invuln duration to alacrity or quickness uptime on the Chrono or somehting like that and not to the number of clones up anymore). For that you put CS back on f5 , give IP back and f4 in a rework form back.

This is the least insightful post I've seen you make. You literally miss the problem which is that continuum split doubles up on abilities (read: effects) which means that you can't simply give -300 power and call it a day because now the double burst hits for 130%. You miss that conditions aren't affected by this, so let's do -300 condition damage, you miss that boons aren't affected by this, so let's add -300 concentration etc etc. So you end up with an elite spec several hundred stat points down just equipping the elite spec and you don't have to be a genius to figure out it would feel terrible to play even with IP and distortion back.

This is also ignoring the other implications which is how do you balance something as outrageously big as time warp or moa? If their cool downs are lower than continuum split then you can always effectively gain double the skill just by having chronomancer, so their cool down has to be higher than continuum split to punish use outside of continuum split which then causes the problem of them being useless on everything else. How do you deal with double (quadruple) summoning phantasms without nerfing them into irrelevance everywhere else and that's without mentioning the additional effects like disenchanter and defender that even doubled up can be over bearing.

Which leads me back to what I said at the start of the entire thread and a couple of years ago now, continuum split as it is now shouldn't exist. Either make it give alacrity so it's a small chunk off every cool down when you use F4 or give it the improv treatment that randomises it to some degree but leaves out elites and heal.

why was mirage used over chrono, even before IP removal, if cont spit is so powerful?

Chrono was used when they made phantasmal disenchanter and defender actually good utility skills during PoF and because of chrono's nature of doubling up on everything and signet of either (meant you could octuple cast many of them) everything about that build was nerfed into the floor, with good reason but to this day many of those skills remain quite bad on core. However the unfortunate side effect for chrono was that it's rhythm was gone with the phantasm update and with the phantasm build nerfed down chrono became more clunky to play after these nerfs, roll on IP removal later.

Then there's the simple stunbreak on dodge then after nerfs dodge while stunned and have your clones do big damage while the enemy is mid animation so gets hit with loads of conditions for why mirage was used. Put simply for the majority of the time mirage just did more damage and did it via conditions which were more effective in a power meta when people take anti power utilities over cleanses. Add on that many traits outside of mirage were nerfed for mirage's sake and ultimately chrono kept getting hit on the only areas it was historically any good at.

@bravan.3876 The problem is, was and always will be that doubling or tripling up on not just 1 skill but multiple skills means it inherently has to be balanced at it's base with that in mind. It's not a healthy mechanic to have in the game and neither is chrono phantasm.

[bravan.3876]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:lower CD and lower its impact.Idea I had was to make it baseline LOW cd like 10-15s.Make it NOT remove clones ( no longer a shatter )Last set duration dunno how long could be split for pvp/pve. 2-5s depending on mode would be good.Increase its duration depending on abilities used during Csplit. For example it gets 50% cd of skills used during its duration.Example, I use csplit and gs2+gs3+f1 shatter.Csplit resets those cooldowns and goes on cd equal to 50% off gs2 + 50% off gs3 + 50% off f1 + flat 10-15s.That way you can decide to use it as a pseudo invuln on low cd 10-15 but you cant attack or it goes on longer cooldown, it also doesnt remove condis so it would be bad version of disort on lower cd, or you can use it offensively but it goes on much longer cooldown, and you no longer can abuse things like long cd heroic + shield 5 + blink + other long cds becouse it will go on 200s cd and you wont use it for years.

I think 30s-35s cd baseline with 33% of used skills is a good idea. This way, Moa + CS = 94.4s cooldown which is understandable. This way, your small skills like gs2 etc won't affect CS that much.

They could juggle with numbers, numbers can always be fine tuned. Most important thing is to make the idea actually have a reason to exist.They could make every skill add flat CD + % of their cooldown for example, so mesmer doesnt bombard people with 5+ low cd skills for example. Would prevent from double GS bursting or at least put a real cooldown on it. Just brainstorming, in reality noting will change and chrono will remain the worst spec in the game, as it was decided to be couple of months ago.

So basically your idea is to give chrono free mimic but for multiple skills not just 1. You still run foul of the double up problem where if any skill is worth doubling up on it's going to always be doubled up on which is the biggest problem with CS in every game mode. It's the reason it had to be nerfed in PvE, PvP and WvW into the current state of not being able to use it without clones because no matter the skill if it's strong it's worth doubling up on and the entire class has to suffer for it.

Better off making CS grant alacrity, has counterplay and you can actually buff it with concentration/improved alacrity without worrying about it utterly shattering all balance by cool down. Or we can be SUPER lazy and do the whole steal a mechanic from another class and make CS work like Improvisation except it only works on utilities that are on cool down.

Why you guys make it that complicated? When something gets more cds in his skill kit you just have to lower the power lvl of the skill ensemble with more cds by lowering the power lvl of each single skill compared to a power lvl of a single skill in a skill ensemble with less cds available. Simple stat penalty as they did with Scrapper are more than enough to trade off a more in cds a mechanic like CS adds. Means when Chrono can do a double gs burst the 2 bursts should have around 130% of the impact from a single Core Mesmer burst (and not like 200% as it was pre trade off), more than 100% from core simply to reward the higher skill requirement a little bit. It is the same with Fb tomes. Deleting or contradicting the mechanic itself or contradicting underlying basic mechanics to trade off or nerf elites is bad and not needed for a good balance.

A Chrono trade off could be for example: -100 power, -50 vita, -50 toughness in addition to the shatter f1,f2 rework (maybe add a rework to f4 to link the invuln duration to alacrity or quickness uptime on the Chrono or somehting like that and not to the number of clones up anymore). For that you put CS back on f5 , give IP back and f4 in a rework form back.

This is the least insightful post I've seen you make. You literally miss the problem which is that continuum split doubles up on abilities (read: effects) which means that you can't simply give -300 power and call it a day because now the double burst hits for 130%. You miss that conditions aren't affected by this, so let's do -300 condition damage, you miss that boons aren't affected by this, so let's add -300 concentration etc etc. So you end up with an elite spec several hundred stat points down just equipping the elite spec and you don't have to be a genius to figure out it would feel terrible to play even with IP and distortion back.

This is also ignoring the other implications which is how do you balance something as outrageously big as time warp or moa? If their cool downs are lower than continuum split then you can always effectively gain double the skill just by having chronomancer, so their cool down has to be higher than continuum split to punish use outside of continuum split which then causes the problem of them being useless on everything else. How do you deal with double (quadruple) summoning phantasms without nerfing them into irrelevance everywhere else and that's without mentioning the additional effects like disenchanter and defender that even doubled up can be over bearing.

Which leads me back to what I said at the start of the entire thread and a couple of years ago now, continuum split as it is now shouldn't exist. Either make it give alacrity so it's a small chunk off every cool down when you use F4 or give it the improv treatment that randomises it to some degree but leaves out elites and heal.

why was mirage used over chrono, even before IP removal, if cont spit is so powerful?

Chrono was used when they made phantasmal disenchanter and defender actually good utility skills during PoF and because of chrono's nature of doubling up on everything and signet of either (meant you could octuple cast many of them) everything about that build was nerfed into the floor, with good reason but to this day many of those skills remain quite bad on core. However the unfortunate side effect for chrono was that it's rhythm was gone with the phantasm update and with the phantasm build nerfed down chrono became more clunky to play after these nerfs, roll on IP removal later.

Then there's the simple stunbreak on dodge then after nerfs dodge while stunned and have your clones do big damage while the enemy is mid animation so gets hit with loads of conditions for why mirage was used. Put simply for the majority of the time mirage just did more damage and did it via conditions which were more effective in a power meta when people take anti power utilities over cleanses. Add on that many traits outside of mirage were nerfed for mirage's sake and ultimately chrono kept getting hit on the only areas it was historically any good at.

@bravan.3876 The problem is, was and always will be that doubling or tripling up on not just 1 skill but multiple skills means it inherently has to be balanced at it's base with that in mind. It's not a healthy mechanic to have in the game and neither is chrono phantasm.

I have not rly played Chrono myself that much, actually i found most specs from HoT not that interesting, at least the ones with more bunker purpose like Chrono and Scrapper, Druid, Aurashare Tempest. I played mostly Reaper, a little bit of dp dash Daredevil. Also fun was Berserker. The bunker Chrono (the issues were once again Chaos and Inspiration and not Chronotraitline in the first place) and much later (during PoF) the phantasm spam build on Chrono were oppressive. I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT. I think the last nerf to Chronophantasm fixed most of its issues it had after the Phantasm rework. Now it doesn't generate a crazy amount of phantasms and clones anymore instead the phantasm(s) just lives longer and attack a second time with less dmg. It has now quite a hard trade off because it delays the clone generation for shatters on phantasms remarkable and the phantasms can be easy cleaved or interrupted before they start the second attack. Means now it also has good counterplay. I don't rly see a problem with the current state of Chronophantasm. At least just theoretically from a PoV of playing against it (pre spec destruction from lost IP and f4 i mean).

I still think (based on the current state of Lost Time and CP) some stat penalty aside from a reworked f1,f2,f4 shatter would still do the job regarding how very few balance issues Chrono had in HoT from CS alone, before the phantasm rework made some traits a little bit too op and before they overbuffed Lost Time. CS is strong but a skillful mechanic doesn't need to diappear in my opinion. If you insist on double elite is too strong even when you give stat penalty, then make CS not work on elites, but i rly don't think that would be needed (my opinion). Still that would be better than what Chrono has to suffer now (no IP, no f4). But it is your elite spec, in the end i don't care, but seeing skilled and interesting mechanics disappear is always sad for me. While i think that your "balance by cds" view is a too shorten view, because you have a lot of ways to balance out a more in cds some specs got. Otherwise we need to delete 1-2 Tomes from FB what would also be a horrible but typical Anet change.

Btw the Teapot VoD was cringe as hell when it comes to Mesmer balance. CmC was not even able to say a single word to the nonsense mess they did to both Mesmer elites. He didn't answer a single question about Mesmer balance and didn't react at all to Teapot saying that Mesmer got kind of butchered (even in WvW only a 2 skill bot). The only Mesmer relevant information was a statement not even directed to Mesmer, that they mainly try to make the one playstyle work they had in mind while creating the spec. That explains why neither Powershatterchrono nor Powermirage get any attention and no one cares when those (more healthy and better designed playstyles) get totally up due to balancing out the main playstyle they see in their (limited) visions. Means they only care for Mirage as a condispam spec, what is ironical because as i descripted the power ambushes are way better designed. Anet doesn't make sense at all when it comes to Mesmer. Because just reworking condi ambushes would have solved all issues from Condimirage way better than the one dodge change and that even without overkilling powerplaystyle as a spin of and without contradicting basic and elite mechanics and deleting skill cieling/tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity and without making the whole spec even more passive and dodgespammy on cd. Just as the IP deletion and the f4 deletion are completely nonsense on Chrono.

[Quadox.7834]

The fact that core is currently stronger than chrono and hes been for a long time is unequivocal proof that CS can be balanced with a sufficient tradeoff, prove me wrong.

[Allarius.5670]

@Quadox.7834 said:The fact that core is currently stronger than chrono and hes been for a long time is unequivocal proof that CS can be balanced with a sufficient tradeoff, prove me wrong.

I could be reading the conversation wrong, but it seems less that 'CS cannot be balanced' (see Mesmer/Chrono skill/utility/trait changes over the years due to synergy with CS) and more that many would prefer it be removed/reworked if the only balance approach that will be taken is to remove IP from Chrono, remove Distortion from Chrono, and the aforementioned skill/utility/trait changes.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:us all stop wasting time with playing and giving ideas for better balance on forum "

Alright.1 - introduce some kind of energy management, rework all skills.2 - delete initiative, introduce cds and rework thief skills3 - introduce cds to revenant utilities, rework skills and remove the get 50% of energy back on legend swap.4 - delete the evades imbued on weapon skills.5 - remove a bunch of ccs and all stability from game.6 - remove all passives and all rng.7 - quickness makes you take double damage.8 - power block gets a CD (it already has but w/e)9 - conditions stack to a max amount of damage (example: 3k damage it doesn't matter how many condis and how much stacks you have) the damage that isn't ticking negates regen and healing.

Of course something like this will never happen, hence why there is no reason to lose timetrying to get a game that was never skill demanding to change that.

You will change the game completely to something else, into a completely different game you like more (maybe GW1?) you are not trying to balance the current GW2 game by keepeing it mechanics. That is not constructive. Btw Interrupt traits don't need a cd just like ICDs on dodge traits are nonsense. The interrupt need is already the limitation. Some of your suggestions could be considered (the quickness one sounds interesting on the first view for example) but stuff like your Thief suggestions are just biased and do not accept GW2 in its nature at all.

It's not biased, it's because GW2 nature doesn't allow for skilled play. Initiative + no cds it's a failed design.No energy management/no cd management is a ridiculous concept that no other mmo company fell into because you can see from a thousand miles it's trash.This game is as much skill demanding as a dynasty warriors game.

Interrupt don't represent any skill in GW2 because GW2 is a spam game, you'll always interrupt something and will always get profit from it, you don't need to time jackkitten thus all skill which interrupts have in other games is removed.How to solve this? 1 - energy management so players don't spam all their arsenal. 2 - interrupt traits with ICD so you actually be rewarded by interrupting crucial skills.

Interrupts already have cd by not having infinite interrupt tools. The tools to interrupt already have cd, you want to add an invisble ICD on traits will make it totally clunky and random for the player and the opponent. That will actually kill skill ceiling not higher it. That is rly a stupid idea. I disagree to Thief initiative being low skill per se. It is just another form of ressource management.Lucky interrupting autoattacks with a short daze with something like PB, means without having broken traits (like old CI or stun on daze trait) will not win you any fight, means you need to use it skilled and on purpose hitting keyskills at good moments to win. There is a little reward from weakness and the poor dmg when only interrupting autoattacks (and in a pressured moment it can make sense to interrupt an autoattack for the weakness, what then is also a skilled and tactical play) but the skillful part is, that it is not enough to win a fight in 99% of the cases just as a lucky high crit only is a killer in 1% of all cases when luckily happen at a very crucial moment. Mesmers simple spamming their Mantra are laughable to fight. They are easy targets, impactless and fast to kill, even when they accidently hit a keyskill sometimes. I think you confuse interrupts tools with lock down cc skills. The current state of random spammable unblockable often undodgeable hard cc is indeed a problem but those are no interrupt builds. Like LR Ele is not an interrupt build.

If GW2 rly would be as skillless as you say, you would not rly see any difference between a bad and a good player. I agree that the difference between a bad and a good player on most meta builds is smaller than it should be (for all the reasons i named a lot myself, incl the analysis of active-passive) but even there you still can see a difference. On Powershattermesmer (not only interrupt and no matter what elite spec/core) the difference between a bad and a good Mesmer is like heaven and hell. Even between good and top is still very big. And Powermes is not the only example, on other classes you have builds with also big differences. The basic GW2 mechanics clearly allow skillful distinctions between players and has skill cieling/ floor included. Just that Anet balance doesn't bring it to a state where it is near the optimum (and i am not talking about making all classes equally strong, that is impossible anyway, there will always be some stuff stronger or more useful in specific roles or gamemodes, i just talk about a skill requirement lvl all over the board that has some minimum skill floor and higher skill ceiling than currently and that for all classes and that is possible without turning GW2 in a completely different game).

Not infinite but too many interrupt potential.I mean you've MoD as an interrupt, but then you've GS5, Torch 5, Sw ambush, F3 as potential rupters in a game where all is about spam, you'll have a gigantic rupt rate even if you don't time anything, this combined with PB is lowering the skill ceiling not highering, same problem with the CI, too much profit for nothing.Rupts are not a good design on a spam game period.

As for initiative + no cds it's the same as CDs + no energy management - is an awful design, proof lies in what I said earlier, no other game fell for it, and we both know that good ideas are copied by other games instantly.

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.Again how to solve this? Lower the amount of rupt potential, introduce a resource mechanic, so neither you neither your opponent can spam. Of course this will not happen, this is a game for carebears, if a resource mechanic was introduced the rage would be unbearable.

Of course you can spot a bad player, the same way you can spot a bad player on dynasty warriors does that make dynasty warriors a skillfull game?This game was made with having on mind the least amount of skill and effort possible.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT.

There was a big balance issue but you didn't see it because the gap was between core and chrono (basically chrono was fine whereas core was trash.). Aka like @apharma.3741 and most mesmer talking about balance said : as long as there is CS and CP, base traits/skills have to take in account that they can be doubled which can never be balanced. Which is particulary visible for ulti like Time warp and Moa. And more visible for moa taken during HoT.Another example is how the phantasm rework get overused and nerfed to hell thanks to CP.

That's why I don't think mesmer can globally get good balance as long as CP double phantasms and CS double skills. And I'm not alone thinking this.

Btw the Teapot VoD was cringe as hell when it comes to Mesmer balance. CmC was not even able to say a single word to the nonsense mess they did to both Mesmer elites. He didn't answer a single question about Mesmer balance and didn't react at all to Teapot saying that Mesmer got kind of butchered (even in WvW only a 2 skill bot). The only Mesmer relevant information was a statement not even directed to Mesmer, that they mainly try to make the one playstyle work they had in mind while creating the spec. That explains why neither Powershatterchrono nor Powermirage get any attention and no one cares when those (more healthy and better designed playstyles) get totally up due to balancing out the main playstyle they see in their (limited) visions. Means they only care for Mirage as a condispam spec, what is ironical because as i descripted the power ambushes are way better designed. Anet doesn't make sense at all when it comes to Mesmer. Because just reworking condi ambushes would have solved all issues from Condimirage way better than the one dodge change and that even without overkilling powerplaystyle as a spin of and without contradicting basic and elite mechanics and deleting skill cieling/tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity and without making the whole spec even more passive and dodgespammy on cd. Just as the IP deletion and the f4 deletion are completely nonsense on Chrono.Interesting, did you have direct link to this ?

@Quadox.7834 said:The fact that core is currently stronger than chrono and hes been for a long time is unequivocal proof that CS can be balanced with a sufficient tradeoff, prove me wrong.

Which is hell to balance and for the moment we never get chrono at the same level as core : either core is trash and chrono is fine, either chrono is trash while chrono is fine.

• the facts that some base mesmers mechanic (phantasm/uti.) can't logicaly be core balanced as long as they can be doubled.

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So wait, you say that CI was broken but PB is not?There the same! Rupt do x, rupt do y!Who even uses autos? Autos are used either when you've nothing else to do or you're not under pressure.I'm not confusing lockdown with rupts. Again, rupts in a spam game have too much profit for little effort, you don't have to time jackkitten.

You just proved that you do not get the difference between an interrupt and a lock down otherwise you would understand the difference between PB and old CI.

Old CI was a lock down (immob+daze acts like a hard cc, like a stun for example, it prefends skill use and dodging and moving, all together, that is called a lock down means something that is not used for interrupts, the main purpose is to trap the target, make it unable to do anything and and hit follow up dmg skills/ combos). A very strong finisher move. Those skills giving a lock down ability have for good reasons good animations and decent casttime (like Warrior Hammer cc skills for example). Old CI trait + MoD was comparable to making Warrior Hammer cc skills range and instant. Even more, old CI was worse/stronger than a simple stun, because it needs a condi clear AND a stunbreak to be countered and for that was the strongest form of control and killer mechanic in the game. Problematic balancewise even without instant range MoD.

No stun, knockdown etc should be instant in this game. It is a killer mechanic, should have counterplay in terms of avoidance by reactiontime based on animations and casttime, because getting traped in a lock down or lock down chain without a stunbreak rdy means death in most cases. The only exceptions are fear and taunt (because both can be removed by condi cleanse without any stunbreak and are for that a lower hard cc category. I still think both should have better animations and more casttime and should not be instant, at least when max range but that is another story. I just explain the balance logic, the reasons why you find instant fear and taunt skills in the game, what got reduced with the big patch already too btw).Instant stun from old CS trait just as old CI got reworked for good reasons, they contradicted healthy balance and balance logic insanely hard. While PB is not a killer. The reward from PB is so low, that even with the current amount of cc a sword Mirage has, you will never win any fight with random interupts on autoattack or with accidently lucky interrupt on a keyskill here and there. that is probably the reason a lot of Mesmer mains think it is currently to weak, while it is just balanced. That is the difference why PB is balance in a game where interrupts work on autoattack (what could be discussed to be changed but in the end there is no reason, that autoattack spam should not be punishable by interrupt builds, AS LONG AS the interrupt reward is not too strong). PB complied those balance logic requirements amoung GW2 mechanics. Old CI and old CS did not. Both were lock downs should never be range and instant. CI was even more than a simple stun and for that problematic even without MoD. Also interrupts with torch 5 and sword ambush from Mesmer and clones have even more counterplay because they have casttime/animation and are for that no balance issue at all. They are, as you mentioned yourself, pretty weak interrupt tools because they are not instant while only providing low impact daze and that very short in duration. Gs5 is not an interrupt tool, it is a hard cc lock down skill.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT.

There was a big balance issue but you didn't see it because the gap was between core and chrono (basically chrono was fine whereas core was trash.). Aka like @"apharma.3741" and most mesmer talking about balance said : as long as there is CS and CP, base traits/skills have to take in account that they can be doubled which can never be balanced. Which is particulary visible for ulti like Time warp and Moa. And more visible for moa taken during HoT.Another example is how the phantasm rework get overused and nerfed to hell thanks to CP.

That's why I don't think mesmer can globally get good balance as long as CP double phantasms and CS double skills. And I'm not alone thinking this.

But now CP doesn't provide double phantasm anymore, it is a simple dmg mulitplier with even more counterplay. It has no balance issue anymore i would say. And when you give a decent amount of stat penalty to Chrono to trade off CS, then it is possible to get Chrono to a state where it is only around 20-30 % better than Core and only when played at max potential, to reward higher skill ceiling. The only question is, how much stat penalty you need to give to Chrono. Deleting CS or nerfing core stuff for the sake of Chrono is not needed at all then.

Interesting, did you have direct link to this ?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/584126755

[Quadox.7834]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT.

There was a big balance issue but you didn't see it because the gap was between core and chrono (basically chrono was fine whereas core was trash.). Aka like @apharma.3741 and most mesmer talking about balance said : as long as there is CS and CP, base traits/skills have to take in account that they can be doubled which can never be balanced. Which is particulary visible for ulti like Time warp and Moa. And more visible for moa taken during HoT.Another example is how the phantasm rework get overused and nerfed to hell thanks to CP.

That's why I don't think mesmer can globally get good balance as long as CP double phantasms and CS double skills. And I'm not alone thinking this.

Btw the Teapot VoD was cringe as hell when it comes to Mesmer balance. CmC was not even able to say a single word to the nonsense mess they did to both Mesmer elites. He didn't answer a single question about Mesmer balance and didn't react at all to Teapot saying that Mesmer got kind of butchered (even in WvW only a 2 skill bot). The only Mesmer relevant information was a statement not even directed to Mesmer, that they mainly try to make the one playstyle work they had in mind while creating the spec. That explains why neither Powershatterchrono nor Powermirage get any attention and no one cares when those (more healthy and better designed playstyles) get totally up due to balancing out the main playstyle they see in their (limited) visions. Means they only care for Mirage as a condispam spec, what is ironical because as i descripted the power ambushes are way better designed. Anet doesn't make sense at all when it comes to Mesmer. Because just reworking condi ambushes would have solved all issues from Condimirage way better than the one dodge change and that even without overkilling powerplaystyle as a spin of and without contradicting basic and elite mechanics and deleting skill cieling/tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity and without making the whole spec even more passive and dodgespammy on cd. Just as the IP deletion and the f4 deletion are completely nonsense on Chrono.Interesting, did you have direct link to this ?

@Quadox.7834 said:The fact that core is currently stronger than chrono and hes been for a long time is unequivocal proof that CS

can

be balanced with a sufficient tradeoff, prove me wrong.

Which is hell to balance and for the moment we never get chrono at the same level as core : either core is trash and chrono is fine, either chrono is trash while chrono is fine.

• the facts that some base mesmers mechanic (phantasm/uti.) can't logicaly be core balanced as long as they can be doubled.

2*x=x+x

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT.

There was a big balance issue but you didn't see it because the gap was between core and chrono (basically chrono was fine whereas core was trash.). Aka like @apharma.3741 and most mesmer talking about balance said : as long as there is CS and CP, base traits/skills have to take in account that they can be doubled which can never be balanced. Which is particulary visible for ulti like Time warp and Moa. And more visible for moa taken during HoT.Another example is how the phantasm rework get overused and nerfed to hell thanks to CP.

That's why I don't think mesmer can globally get good balance as long as CP double phantasms and CS double skills. And I'm not alone thinking this.

But now CP doesn't provide double phantasm anymore, it is a simple dmg mulitplier with even more counterplay. It has no balance issue anymore i would say. And when you give a decent amount of stat penalty to Chrono to trade off CS, then it is possible to get Chrono to a state where it is only around 20-30 % better than Core and only when played at max potential, to reward higher skill ceiling. The only question is, how much stat penalty you need to give to Chrono. Deleting CS or nerfing core stuff for the sake of Chrono is not needed at all then.

I know I didn't play chrono phantasm since a long time but as far as I know CP always pop 2 fantasms, so 2 attacks (= 2 boons clears from desenchanter.) and triger third on illusions summon trait (even if there is no more one clone between the phantasms.).About CS, if tomorrow they make time wrap the same CD as wind of disenchantment, I don't think that stat reduction will do the work, particulary since mesmer survival is all active.Nerfing core stuff for the sake of chrono is the situation since chrono pop and that's how many traits and skills are currently balanced.Deleting CS or reworking it is imo way more easier to do for next balancing than to have thinking about it each skill rework.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:I never saw a big balance issue with the Condi Chrono Hot meta or with glass Powershatterchrono during HoT.

There was a big balance issue but you didn't see it because the gap was between core and chrono (basically chrono was fine whereas core was trash.). Aka like @apharma.3741 and most mesmer talking about balance said : as long as there is CS and CP, base traits/skills have to take in account that they can be doubled which can never be balanced. Which is particulary visible for ulti like Time warp and Moa. And more visible for moa taken during HoT.Another example is how the phantasm rework get overused and nerfed to hell thanks to CP.

That's why I don't think mesmer can globally get good balance as long as CP double phantasms and CS double skills. And I'm not alone thinking this.

But now CP doesn't provide double phantasm anymore, it is a simple dmg mulitplier with even more counterplay. It has no balance issue anymore i would say. And when you give a decent amount of stat penalty to Chrono to trade off CS, then it is possible to get Chrono to a state where it is only around 20-30 % better than Core and only when played at max potential, to reward higher skill ceiling. The only question is, how much stat penalty you need to give to Chrono. Deleting CS or nerfing core stuff for the sake of Chrono is not needed at all then.

I know I didn't play chrono phantasm since a long time but as far as I know CP always pop 2 fantasms, so 2 attacks (= 2 boons clears from desenchanter.) and triger third on illusions summon trait (even if there is no more one clone between the phantasms.).About CS, if tomorrow they make time wrap the same CD as wind of disenchantment, I don't think that stat reduction will do the work, particulary since mesmer survival is all active.Nerfing core stuff for the sake of chrono is the situation since chrono pop and that's how many traits and skills are currently balanced.Deleting CS or reworking it is imo way more easier to do for next balancing than to have thinking about it each skill rework.

Trait description: The first time a phantasm would become a clone, it instead resummons itself and attacks again. Resummoned phantasms inflict a percentage of the original's damage. (Resummoned phantasms are briefly dazed.)-> No additional phantams from that trait. No additional clones from that trait. You cast one phantams with a skill and it just attacks 2 times before turning into a clone while even being dazed a short time inbetween. During that long time Chrono gets no clone from the phantasm and the phantasm can easy be killed or interrupted while it is up way longer before finishing its dmg rotation (actually would be more fair to just give summond phantams a 30-50% dmg buff on the first attack instead what CP does atm). With other words CP is a simple dmg buff now, just less strong than something like SC in Duelling what doesn't delay clone generation, works for all skills not only phantasms and for that cannot be countered by simple cleave or interrupt of the ai for the insane long duration the phantasm needs to finish his 2 attacks+ shortly being dazed.

Seems like the double phantams came from the unnecessary staff and gs gm trait for 2 phantams buff they did together with the phantasm rework. That was another point, the phantasm rework itself and then they also buffed certain traits/skills to give more phantams or clone generation (staff 3, gs gm trait in Domiation, scepter 2) while forgetting how that would turn Chrono into an illusion production machine. Chrono was way less of an issue before all those changes. Not to mention how unnecessary those double phantasm and double clone buffs were in the first place (also for core) because it contradicted opportunity costs in traits you had. A Mesmer at that point didn't need to decide between direct dmg buffs or more clone generation. All weapons now provided that many Illusions, there was no need to go for DE anymore to get the same amount of clones you had pre HoT with DE alone. -> op dmg buff for all Mesmer specs