Torch 4, to throw or not to throw and axe vs sword for FB?

[Terimac.5871]

Hey,So about torch 4, if its multiply enemies i shouldn't throw it right? Only throw on single targets and targets far away?Axe vs sword: which one do you use and way? Condi FB ofc.

Oh and when do you guys use cleansing flame?

Thanks and merry x-mas.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Against multiple enemies, you can throw it at the last moment (you can watch the buff in your bar to time it). Then again, I don't like torch in open world, even for condi builds, for that exact reason. You get no survivability and only single-target damage.

Cleansing Flame is bad for damage. Against 3+ enemies and with Permeating Fire is the only time it's not completely useless, and even then you might get better numbers with the axe auto.

As for what weapon to choose, sword, axe and scepter are all really close to each other. Sword is one of the best, if not the best weapon for solo. If gold is not a problem and you can afford having multiple condi weapons, they will all prove useful. I've seen qt's benchmark use scepter/axe (but camping scepter primarily) and another benchmark using sword/scepter. The damage is roughly the same.

[FnkyTwn.3875]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:and only single-target damage.

That's true, but Torch 5 really melts the bejesus out of things, and single target damage for big things is pretty useful.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@FnkyTwn.3875 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:and only single-target damage.

That's true, but Torch 5 really melts the bejesus out of things, and single target damage for big things is pretty useful.

Torch 5 is worse than autoattacking 99% of the time.

You can always keep Torch on your secondary set for swaps, that's what I do, I have axe or sword with focus most of the time, and switch to scepter/torch for boss events.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Like, here's a comparison:Cleansing Flame is 1090 (3.3)An axe auto chain is 1408 (3.84)

Already more power damage. But Cleansing Flame takes 3.25s to animate. The axe chain only take 1.5s. So, in the time it takes to finish Torch 5, you can do 2 full axe chains. That's 2816 (7.68) vs 1090 (3.3)

But what about the VoJ procs? Cleansing Flame hits 9 times, 2 axe chains hit 12 times. And that's without even calculating axe's built-in condis.

Forget Torch 5 exists, it's a shit skill.

[Opopanax.1803]

You are assuming axe is cleaving 3 targets in those numbers?

[Vitali.5039]

I'm pretty sure that Cleansing Flame could be useful to support allies while also garanting a good AoE burning if paired with Permeating Wrath.It's not a dps increase but is better than lose dps to revive allies.

[VictoriaCross.3205]

They need to rework torch 5 on guardian

[Klowdy.3126]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Like, here's a comparison:Cleansing Flame is 1090 (3.3)An axe auto chain is 1408 (3.84)

Already more power damage. But Cleansing Flame takes 3.25s to animate. The axe chain only take 1.5s. So, in the time it takes to finish Torch 5, you can do 2 full axe chains. That's 2816 (7.68) vs 1090 (3.3)

But what about the VoJ procs? Cleansing Flame hits 9 times, 2 axe chains hit 12 times. And that's without even calculating axe's built-in condis.

Forget Torch 5 exists, it's a kitten skill.

Until you fight multiple enemies. I'm not sure how you are supposed to play this game, but I pull groups of five or six on my FB, so it seems like torch is the best option for me, so torch 5 is a good skill.

Believe it or not, paper doesn't always play out, but after running in a circle to gather everyone, I use torch 4, axe 2, axe 3, torch 5, and then it's just the one or two elites left

[FnkyTwn.3875]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Forget Torch 5 exists, it's a kitten skill.

Why do 95% of Guardian/Firebrand builds seem to include it then? I'm a new player. This isn't a sarcastic question.

[MMAI.5892]

@FnkyTwn.3875 said:

Why do 95% of Guardian/Firebrand builds seem to include it then? I'm a new player. This isn't a sarcastic question.

Torch 5 hits up to 3 targets at a time for some decent damage and can act as a condi cleanse for allies. Since a lot of builds run the Radiance line, and Radiant Fire for the Zealot's Flame proc, the CD on torch skills is reduced as well. #5 can also be redirected to new enemies during its duration or still used while on the move. The damage isn't bad either. The 400 range also helps if you're trying to stay slightly behind more melee folks to buff them.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Opopanax.1803 said:You are assuming axe is cleaving 3 targets in those numbers?

No, this is not total cleave damage, it's damage per target. But Cleansing Flame and axe auto have the same target cap (3), so what difference does it make? Axe auto deals more damage, and hit 12 times instead of 9, so if you have Permeating Wrath, that's 4 procs instead of 3. On top of that, you will apply axe's own conditions.

And if you do hit 3 targets with Permeating Wrath, that means axe auto will proc VoJ 12 times, to Torch's 9 times.

The only advantage of Cleansing Flame is that it has a bigger range. The condi cleanse is irrelevant to the discussion, because this was about using the skill for damage.

@Klowdy.3126 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Like, here's a comparison:Cleansing Flame is 1090 (3.3)An axe auto chain is 1408 (3.84)

Already more power damage. But Cleansing Flame takes 3.25s to animate. The axe chain only take 1.5s. So, in the time it takes to finish Torch 5, you can do 2 full axe chains. That's 2816 (7.68) vs 1090 (3.3)

But what about the VoJ procs? Cleansing Flame hits 9 times, 2 axe chains hit 12 times. And that's without even calculating axe's built-in condis.

Forget Torch 5 exists, it's a kitten skill.

Until you fight multiple enemies. I'm not sure how you are supposed to play this game, but I pull groups of five or six on my FB, so it seems like torch is the best option for me, so torch 5 is a good skill.

Believe it or not, paper doesn't always play out, but after running in a circle to gather everyone, I use torch 4, axe 2, axe 3, torch 5, and then it's just the one or two elites left

"It's a good skill, because I feel like it".

Torch 5 has a 3-target cap. Axe auto is the same. Next time you group them up like that, spam 1 for better results.

@FnkyTwn.3875 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Forget Torch 5 exists, it's a kitten skill.

Why do 95% of Guardian/Firebrand builds seem to include it then? I'm a new player. This isn't a sarcastic question.

Because torch 4 is a good skill, and we can't choose one without the other. Just pretend torch only has 1 skill.

If you in pve, 99.9% of the time, you have no need to cleanse condis from your allies, and if you do, you have access to Tome of Resolve. If you are in pvp/wvw, you have no reason to use torch in the first place.

[Verenhimo.3296]

The fact Torch 5 doesn't actually inflict burning always bewildered me, I'd happily lose the condi cleanse component, even as a avid WvW player in favour of it having some level of burning, plus it'd spice up an already boring pve rotation.

[Kerivek.5740]

I always wondered that myself. Why does the large cone of flames not cause any burning? Since FB came out I don't think I've used the skill once, prior to that I used it on rare occasions when the condi removal was useful.

[Azoqu.8917]

The only sensible reason to use torch 5 is because weapon swap is on cool down and you're on scepter/torch. If you have your axe out, as has been pointed out, just auto away. Torch 5 has always been a horrible skill and to think it was even worse a ways back.

[RabbitUp.8294]

At least it's nice for taking screenshots.

@Azoqu.8917 said:The only sensible reason to use torch 5 is because weapon swap is on cool down and you're on scepter/torch. If you have your axe out, as has been pointed out, just auto away. Torch 5 has always been a horrible skill and to think it was even worse a ways back.

Only if you are against 2+ targets. If you are fighting a single target, spamming scepter auto is better.

Even mace auto is better than torch 5.

[Arcaedus.7290]

Don't defend torch 5.... it always has been and still is a garbage skill that needs buffing. It's a completely useless skill for power builds and auto-attacking beats it out for hybrid or condi builds in most situations. Okay, so hypothetical situation of 3 targets getting cleaved + VoJ procs (with permeating wrath traited) is like the one situation in which torch 5 beats out auto attack but only marginally. It's a problem when you have a weapon skill that is worse than auto attacking majority of the time and only a mild improvement over auto attack in a specific situation.

Torch 5 should self-cleanse, receive some sort of incentive to channel the entire skill (gain boons or a unique buff if entier skill is channeled) and should cause a little bit of innate burning since you're literally breathing flames afterall.

Main reason people take torch is for torch 4 which becomes even more valuable when taking the radiance trait line. Torch 4 alone carries torch as an offhand weapon.

[CptAurellian.9537]

Self-cleanse is a must-have if torch #5 is ever supposed to become useful. Apart from that, we'd probably need something that benefits both power and condition builds, since it's our only dps offhand. Maybe just a shorter channel time?

[LetoII.3782]

Nice thing about Firebrand, torch 5 may finally get looked at.Just a self cleanse, please. That's all it needs.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:Don't defend torch 5.... it always has been and still is a garbage skill that needs buffing. It's a completely useless skill for power builds and auto-attacking beats it out for hybrid or condi builds in most situations. Okay, so hypothetical situation of 3 targets getting cleaved + VoJ procs (with permeating wrath traited) is like the one situation in which torch 5 beats out auto attack but only marginally. It's a problem when you have a weapon skill that is worse than auto attacking majority of the time and only a mild improvement over auto attack in a specific situation.

What makes you think it becomes better if you attack 3 targets? I just demonstrated above that this is not the case. And not only compared to axe auto, but sword auto, too. The only benefit is the increased range.

Self-cleansing will never happened, cleansing 9 conditions from yourself on a low cooldown is too much, and it affects allies, too.

I would rather they completely removed the cleansing and focus on making it a good damaging skill. Torch has no business being a utility weapon, we have focus and shield for that.

[Saiyan.1704]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this already but for 1-handers you'll use Scepter or Sword with Torch, Not Axe.

Casting a symbol on either weapon set + Torch#5 will dish out more damage than either of the two 1-hander weapon's auto. I would personally use Sword#2 + Torch#4 to teleport in for an easy burn, then cast #5. If it's single target throw the #4 after the sword teleport and a couple auto hits, then switch to Axe when necessary.

Typically Torch#5 wouldn't be needed for single target ever... unless needing to survive while dealing mid-range dps lol.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Saiyan.1704 said:Not sure if anyone mentioned this already but for 1-handers you'll use Scepter or Sword with Torch, Not Axe.

There's nothing wrong with using axe, the damage is very close, and for non-raid scenarios, you have another CC for breakbars. That been said, the number discrepancy is not exclusive to axe, it's the same for all melee weapons. Two sword auto chains do 2270 (6.2) to Cleansing Flame's 1090 (3.3) and hit 10 times instead of 9.

Casting a symbol on either weapon set + Torch#5 will dish out more damage than either of the two 1-hander weapon's auto.

Ok, how is this an argument? You know what's even more damage? Symbol+auto spam.

[Saiyan.1704]

Yea, I guess you're right.

[cat.8975]

for single targetscepter > axe > sword

for cleavingaxe > sword > scepter

afaik

[Arcaedus.7290]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:Don't defend torch 5.... it always has been and still is a garbage skill that needs buffing. It's a completely useless skill for power builds and auto-attacking beats it out for hybrid or condi builds in most situations. Okay, so hypothetical situation of 3 targets getting cleaved + VoJ procs (with permeating wrath traited) is like the one situation in which torch 5 beats out auto attack but only marginally. It's a problem when you have a weapon skill that is worse than auto attacking majority of the time and only a mild improvement over auto attack in a specific situation.

What makes you think it becomes better if you attack 3 targets? I just demonstrated above that this is not the case. And not only compared to axe auto, but sword auto, too. The only benefit is the increased range.

Self-cleansing will never happened, cleansing 9 conditions from yourself on a low cooldown is too much, and it affects allies, too.

I would rather they completely removed the cleansing and focus on making it a good damaging skill. Torch has no business being a utility weapon, we have focus and shield for that.

Yup, so now torch 5 doesn't even have that going for it. Well the self-cleanse could be separate from the ally cleanse. It could just be cleanse cleanse 2 condis initially. I don't think utility should be removed from torch 5. Torch 4 is already our damaging skill and if you look at any off-hand in the game, there isn't any case I can think of where both skill 4 and skill 5 are purely damage based (or both purely offensive). Having some sort of offensive or defensive utility is a reasonable annex for torch. It should definitely be buffed to at least the point of out-damaging auto-attack in all scenarios though.