death ball and death ball buster and state of game

[Lighter.5631]

In almost any group PvP, there's death ball, where people play heavy team orientated aoe builds and stick together and runs over enemy team with heavy CCs and sustain.and there's death ball counters, for example sombra in overwatch that disable death balls with AoE silent.

But in guild wars2. they are all the same! death ball and death ball buster are all the same,all FB/condi rev/necro...because they also brings aoe stab, corrupt and condition transfer that's supposed to kill death ball..there's no solution to death ball other then death ball

how can some classes being able to 1v1, hold point, team fight at the same time, just because "class mechanics".it really isnt anything else that killed pvp, but anet's inability to give thoughtful skill designs. you need to make skills for pvp/wvw, and adapt in PvE, pve is numbers/boon game, it demands less on skill design.

but any rant of these kind are useless, skill devs are PvE, and pvp/wvw devs thinks everything is fine just not in this meta.

and yea, pvp is also basically dead because 3v3 no pvper will play any game without a party and with a party plat just matched against silvers with long Q time, because no one will play without a party.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Lighter.5631" said:In almost any group PvP, there's death ball, where people play heavy team orientated aoe builds and stick together and runs over enemy team with heavy CCs and sustain.and there's death ball counters, for example sombra in overwatch that disable death balls with AoE silent.

But in guild wars2. they are all the same! death ball and death ball buster are all the same,all FB/condi rev/necro...because they also brings aoe stab, corrupt and condition transfer that's supposed to kill death ball..there's no solution to death ball other then death ball

how can some classes being able to 1v1, hold point, team fight at the same time, just because "class mechanics".it really isnt anything else that killed pvp, but anet's inability to give thoughtful skill designs. you need to make skills for pvp/wvw, and adapt in PvE, pve is numbers/boon game, it demands less on skill design.

but any rant of these kind are useless, skill devs are PvE, and pvp/wvw devs thinks everything is fine just not in this meta.

and yea, pvp is also basically dead because 3v3 no pvper will play any game without a party and with a party plat just matched against silvers with long Q time, because no one will play without a party.

death ball busters are thief and mesmers that rotate around the map to spred slower, bunkers thin. Oh wait they nerfed mobility whoopsie

[Shiyo.3578]

Thief mobility is so much higher than any other classes that a global nerf doesn't really change anything.

[Bazsi.2734]

3v3 deathmatch is simply too dumb for this game. It's balanced around conquest, where things like disengageing a losing fight, rotating (fast) to other fights, guarding/stealing objectives are all roles you simply do not have in 3v3. All you need is a teamcomp that can go all in to win a teamfight. Have fun with deathballs, nothing short of an AoE silencing mechanic will break them up. And that won't be implemented into this game, I'm 100% sure of it(a-net please prove me wrong, I love being wrong).

[Lighter.5631]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:death ball busters are thief and mesmers that rotate around the map to spred slower, bunkers thin. Oh wait they nerfed mobility whoopsie

I guess out rotating is the only thing in this game that's semi bunk buster.game needs something that can punish deathball without being a deathball.

@Bazsi.2734 said:3v3 deathmatch is simply too dumb for this game. It's balanced around conquest, where things like disengageing a losing fight, rotating (fast) to other fights, guarding/stealing objectives are all roles you simply do not have in 3v3. All you need is a teamcomp that can go all in to win a teamfight. Have fun with deathballs, nothing short of an AoE silencing mechanic will break them up. And that won't be implemented into this game, I'm 100% sure of it(a-net please prove me wrong, I love being wrong).

Even in 5v5, with all these objectives, FB/rev(with some occasional mix of necro/holo) are still taking advantage of being able to 1v1, while having awesome team fight capability, you can add thief/mes for added objective for mobility, but game still center around fb/rev. what would you take, a warrior/ranger who can only 1v1 or team fight only tempest or a fb/rev(with some occasional mix of necro/holo) who can hold 1v1 and win team fight as well. answer is pretty clear. no coincidence when half of decent pvp player base are consist of guard/rev, anyone else other then thief/mes(with a minimum mix of necro/holo) players either rerolls or simply not worth to play consistently.

[Eurantien.4632]

Death ball buster was a well played power mesmer.

Death ball meta didnt exist pre-revenant.

Revenant ruined the game.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Bazsi.2734" said:3v3 deathmatch is simply too dumb for this game. It's balanced around conquest, where things like disengageing a losing fight, rotating (fast) to other fights, guarding/stealing objectives are all roles you simply do not have in 3v3. All you need is a teamcomp that can go all in to win a teamfight. Have fun with deathballs, nothing short of an AoE silencing mechanic will break them up. And that won't be implemented into this game, I'm 100% sure of it(a-net please prove me wrong, I love being wrong).

Let's see, we need a class that can "silence" (which is daze btw) or punish spam (confusion).

ALMOST like we need an actual mesmer build. Who knew.

[Lighter.5631]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Bazsi.2734" said:3v3 deathmatch is simply too dumb for this game. It's balanced around conquest, where things like disengageing a losing fight, rotating (fast) to other fights, guarding/stealing objectives are all roles you simply do not have in 3v3. All you need is a teamcomp that can go all in to win a teamfight. Have fun with deathballs, nothing short of an AoE silencing mechanic will break them up. And that won't be implemented into this game, I'm 100% sure of it(a-net please prove me wrong, I love being wrong).

Let's see, we need a class that can "silence" (which is daze btw) or punish spam (confusion).

ALMOST like we need an actual mesmer build. Who knew.

devs are not gonna design any role/build for any class, they just adjust individual skills and let community create build which resulted this poor balance and eventually leads to slow death of the pvp/wvw scene.

everybody with common logic knows stealth long range nuke is bad idea in any PvP game, but anet still decided to introduce DE, look at WvW roaming now.makes you wonder how much anet cares about pvp/wvw skill design wise.

[Buran.3796]

@Eurantien.4632 said:Death ball buster was a well played power mesmer.

Death ball meta didnt exist pre-revenant.

Revenant ruined the game.

Rank 55 Dragons isn't running a Protoss Deathball and is doing fine. In fact due they aren't anchored to slow rotations because their team composition has a lot more mobility they are able to isolate and kill enemy players faster than their foes can support them. Was very evident this nigth, in which demolished every team with almost no casualties.

Now, if you're talking about 3 v 3, that game mode for which the game isn't balanced for, and which last 14, yes, the power nerf made the condi bunker meta the best choice. You want to balance the game towards a game mode which will emerge once every 2 months or so?

[Emapudapus.1307]

@Eurantien.4632 said:Death ball buster was a well played power mesmer.

Death ball meta didnt exist pre-revenant.

Revenant ruined the game.

This, quote of truth.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Bazsi.2734" said:3v3 deathmatch is simply too dumb for this game. It's balanced around conquest, where things like disengageing a losing fight, rotating (fast) to other fights, guarding/stealing objectives are all roles you simply do not have in 3v3. All you need is a teamcomp that can go all in to win a teamfight. Have fun with deathballs, nothing short of an AoE silencing mechanic will break them up. And that won't be implemented into this game, I'm 100% sure of it(a-net please prove me wrong, I love being wrong).

Let's see, we need a class that can "silence" (which is daze btw) or punish spam (confusion).

ALMOST like we need an actual mesmer build. Who knew.

devs are not gonna design any role/build for any class, they just adjust individual skills and let community create build which resulted this poor balance and eventually leads to slow death of the pvp/wvw scene.

everybody with common logic knows stealth long range nuke is bad idea in any PvP game, but anet still decided to introduce DE, look at WvW roaming now.makes you wonder how much anet cares about pvp/wvw skill design wise.

"Everyone wants to be a stealthed sniper!"

[Bazsi.2734]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Bazsi.2734" said:3v3 deathmatch is simply too dumb for this game. It's balanced around conquest, where things like disengageing a losing fight, rotating (fast) to other fights, guarding/stealing objectives are all roles you simply do not have in 3v3. All you need is a teamcomp that can go all in to win a teamfight. Have fun with deathballs, nothing short of an AoE silencing mechanic will break them up. And that won't be implemented into this game, I'm 100% sure of it(a-net please prove me wrong, I love being wrong).

Let's see, we need a class that can "silence" (which is daze btw) or punish spam (confusion).

ALMOST like we need an actual mesmer build. Who knew.

The problem with your simple everyday normal daze is the stability spam from any X/jalis revenant and guardians. If you take a look at the "smiteball" that Vallun designed, it can basicly maintain stability on the entire party. If you had a mesmer build that was powerful enough to rip through all of this stability and land dazes left and right, it could be repurposed to wreack havoc in other pvp gamemodes aswell, and would get nerfed because of that.They really dug this hole for themselves when they abandoned the trinity and designed the combat system. I usually have ideas how to fix X or Y, but I have nothing to offer right now, apart from "don't have 3v3, your game is not balanced for that" which is really not helpful.

[TeqkOneStylez.8047]

Friendly fires on.

[Tayga.3192]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:3v3 deathmatch is simply too dumb for this game. It's balanced around conquest, where things like disengageing a losing fight, rotating (fast) to other fights, guarding/stealing objectives are all roles you simply do not have in 3v3. All you need is a teamcomp that can go all in to win a teamfight. Have fun with deathballs, nothing short of an AoE silencing mechanic will break them up. And that won't be implemented into this game, I'm 100% sure of it(a-net please prove me wrong, I love being wrong).

Let's see, we need a class that can "silence" (which is daze btw) or punish spam (confusion).

ALMOST like we need an actual mesmer build. Who knew.

The problem with your simple everyday normal daze is the stability spam from any X/jalis revenant and guardians. If you take a look at the "smiteball" that Vallun designed, it can basicly maintain stability on the entire party. If you had a mesmer build that was powerful enough to rip through all of this stability and land dazes left and right, it could be repurposed to wreack havoc in other pvp gamemodes aswell, and would get nerfed because of that.They really dug this hole for themselves when they abandoned the trinity and designed the combat system. I usually have ideas how to fix X or Y, but I have nothing to offer right now, apart from "don't have 3v3, your game is not balanced for that" which is really not helpful.

Null field needs to be stronger tbh

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

A lot of the issues we see stem from an overall lack of knowledge about Diversity as a systems science. Balance, defined by games is an artificial construction, which exhibits basically the anti-behaviour of what Anet wanted to created in the first place.

Here is the thing to understand about Deathballs. Deathball is basically the same thing as the Murderball and Boonball seen in WvW. In Complex systems, you can predict that behavior like this will arise due to emergence; Autonomous Agents that wish to achieve goals (goals such as winning a fight,) will find ways to achieve those goals. Balling in this sense, is one way to achieve these Autonomous goals, and in many cases is the best way to achieve these goals.

Because there exits NO OTHER optimal compositions to fight that exhibit different or unique behavior other than balling, then we see exactly as you describe, Deathballs vs other Deathballs.

In a truly diverse world, we would see compositions that mimic PirateShip Tactics in WvW, or many other types of other compositions with a wide variety of behaviours...in which the composition is a direct counter to the Deathball, forcing players to split up. The reason we don't see this is because we don't have enough viable build options that create enough compositions that Autonomous Agents can use to achieve goals that aren't deathballs!

In other words, the choices available to create builds aren't enough to meet the goal requirements for autonomous agents to achieve them. You need to make a burst build? You can't cause there isn't enough build synergy. You need to heal people? You can't because healing is impractical and clunky. You need to inflict power damage because the enemy has too much condition cleanse? You can't because all power was nerfed to the points where you have no choice but to roll condi.

This is just the tip of the iceberg in the current state of the game.

To be honest, we should be seeing many many many different types of compositions in Gw2, with the same level of diversity as guild wars 1...Signet Way, Spirit Way, Iway, Rainbow Spike, Contagion Bomb, and hundreds of other compositions...and yet, why do we not have this? What went wrong? why is it so STARKLY different and stale... It's because of the lack of understanding about diversity in complex systems science, and understanding that in order for diversity and by proxy actual balance to occur, traits and abilities need to have synergy, and be good enough, and UNIQUE enough to achieve an autonomous goal.

[Dreams.3128]

@Eurantien.4632 said:Death ball buster was a well played power mesmer.

Death ball meta didnt exist pre-revenant.

Revenant ruined the game.

This. Rev is a mish mash of concepts. Doesn't even have its own identity. It was literally a useless addition to the game that has either been useless or busted.

[Vancho.8750]

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:A lot of the issues we see stem from an overall lack of knowledge about Diversity as a systems science. Balance, defined by games is an artificial construction, which exhibits basically the anti-behaviour of what Anet wanted to created in the first place.

Here is the thing to understand about Deathballs. Deathball is basically the same thing as the Murderball and Boonball seen in WvW. In Complex systems, you can predict that behavior like this will arise due to emergence; Autonomous Agents that wish to achieve goals (goals such as winning a fight,) will find ways to achieve those goals. Balling in this sense, is one way to achieve these Autonomous goals, and in many cases is the best way to achieve these goals.

Because there exits NO OTHER optimal compositions to fight that exhibit different or unique behavior other than balling, then we see exactly as you describe, Deathballs vs other Deathballs.

In a truly diverse world, we would see compositions that mimic PirateShip Tactics in WvW, or many other types of other compositions with a wide variety of behaviours...in which the composition is a direct counter to the Deathball, forcing players to split up. The reason we don't see this is because we don't have enough viable build options that create enough compositions that Autonomous Agents can use to achieve goals that aren't deathballs!

In other words, the choices available to create builds aren't enough to meet the goal requirements for autonomous agents to achieve them. You need to make a burst build? You can't cause there isn't enough build synergy. You need to heal people? You can't because healing is impractical and clunky. You need to inflict power damage because the enemy has too much condition cleanse? You can't because all power was nerfed to the points where you have no choice but to roll condi.

This is just the tip of the iceberg in the current state of the game.

To be honest, we should be seeing many many many different types of compositions in Gw2, with the same level of diversity as guild wars 1...Signet Way, Spirit Way, Iway, Rainbow Spike, Contagion Bomb, and hundreds of other compositions...and yet, why do we not have this? What went wrong? why is it so STARKLY different and stale... It's because of the lack of understanding about diversity in complex systems science, and understanding that in order for diversity and by proxy actual balance to occur, traits and abilities need to have synergy, and be good enough, and UNIQUE enough to achieve an autonomous goal.

There isn't ranged healing option, maybe tempest but it is a bit iffy, the whole game revolves in stacking in one place and getting boons and heals pve wvw the meta is stack a get buffed.In WoW you have different healer types, hard healer caster like shaman, dot healer as druid, mobile healer as monk, before the patch we had only one option in firebrand as a support after the patch we got tempest if they work on scrapper and scourge that might be another 2 so for now we lack options. If you play comp you can theory craft allot of comps but they might fall short because the meta conquest teamfighters are borked, there is no variety in there and seeps into 3v3 and to tell you i see more different comps in 3v3 then in conquest.When i watched the Teapot CMC interview one thing really pissed me off they didnt want to dictate the meta, they leave it to players, fuck the players the players are pieces of shit and chose the most boring thing possible, that is why the "e-sports" failed the pro players cared about winning and said that the bunker shit was K. Theory craft some builds, buff em up, create options, don't let 5 build to be the default, give builds a purpose and stick to it. But throw random crap till it sticks and we get either broken shit or useless shit.

[Rukia.4802]

Aren't you glad we have no trinity, makes pvp sooo much better, lul.

[Lighter.5631]

@"Vancho.8750" said:When i watched the Teapot CMC interview one thing really pissed me off they didnt want to dictate the meta, they leave it to players, kitten the players the players are pieces of kitten and chose the most boring thing possible, that is why the "e-sports" failed the pro players cared about winning and said that the bunker kitten was K. Theory craft some builds, buff em up, create options, don't let 5 build to be the default, give builds a purpose and stick to it. But throw random kitten till it sticks and we get either broken kitten or useless kitten.

exactly, they don't want to do anything, not forcing builds, leading to traits lacking meaningful synergy with anti-fun builds all over the place,only tweaking one or two overperforming trait/skill in months, makes me wonder how minimum the work load must be for whatever salary they get.They can easily force up to 2 skill based builds per class and we would have more diversity/fun then now.

[Shiyo.3578]

There's still too much boon spam on engineer and guardian and boon corrupt was basically removed from the game entirely. Thief is a better boon remover than necro atm.