Where are the trade offs of herald and holo?

[Bazsi.2734]

Yeah elite specialisations aren't quite consistent with tradeoffs.

• One good example would be deadeye: this elite spec is not a better, but a different version of thief.
• A bad example would be daredevil: it's just a straight up upgrade for d/p thief.

So even though deadeye doesn't have a tradeoff(the functional changes to its steal hardly count), it doesn't really need it tbh. However daredevil indeed seems to be just a P2W version of the core D/P thief, so what the hell? It also doesn't help that some classes started recieving tradeoffs almost 2 years ago, and some don't have them to this day.Is the tradoff project still ongoing? Is it possible that your favourite elite spec will get the chronomancer treatment next? Or through the big layoffs, reorganising of the company and the world burning(2020 is such a meme), was it forgotten? There is 0 communication about any of this(at least none of what I'm aware of), if I was still seriously monogaming this MMO as I used to for years, I'd be angry at them right now.

[Shiyo.3578]

It's really silly how daredevil is literally just +1 dodge and stronger dodges for absolutely no reason.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Daredevil shouldn't be able to stealth, at all.Mesmer stealth utilities are ok though.

No class but thief shoukd have stealth.

yes, take stealth away from ILLUSIONIST xd

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :)

[ArthurDent.9538]

The way some people in this thread are arguing it's like they want elite specs to be so much of a side grade that they are balanced against 2 core trait lines with the the third one empty, spoiler: 3 trait lines > 2 trait lines always. Of course adding an elite specs trait line to a build is always going to be an upgrade over just running 2 core trait lines but not necessarily over 3 core trait lines. There have definitely been and currently are popular builds for core thief and core guard despite the "lack of trade-offs" to daredeveil/firebrand/dragon hunter because some times there are 3 core trait lines that offer more than the espec lines regardless of arbitrary secondary tradeoffs imposed to appease salty individuals.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :)

Just yesterday Sind was criticizing his own play because it would have been way better to Swipe into a Herald's Crystal Hibernation than we he used it earlier in the fight.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Daredevil has essentially no trade off either

Lol. No tradeoff? Each dodge augment has its own tradeoffs and we lose 1200 range steal.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :)

Just yesterday Sind was criticizing his own play because it would have been way better to Swipe into a Herald's Crystal Hibernation than we he used it earlier in the fight.

ofc, if you can interrupt blocks you always do it, its not only guarantee hit ( nobody going to dodge while blocking ) but also cuts their defences short.every class that uses blocks relies on it survive, that 2s shoved off is 2s that they dont have to recharge other skills and endurance.warrior can dodge->gs3->counter->dodge->shield block and gs3/dodge is up again, if you interrupt shield block they dont have time to regain gs3 cd and endurance for dodges, so you remove 1 defence from them but in reality they would have had 2 other cooldowns thanks to it.and rev block even heals

[Leonidrex.5649]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Daredevil has essentially no trade off either

Lol. No tradeoff? Each dodge augment has its own tradeoffs and we lose 1200 range steal.

o.Osteal -> 1200 range30s cd

Swipe -> 600 range25s cdunblockable.that is a tradeoffextra dodge is just a cherry on top.and only dodge that has downside is dash, but its a small price to pay for perma swiftness, long range dashes and reduced damage taken

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.

Its rare that you want to interrupt a block in the first place. If you do however, just swap to shortbow and use shortbow 4. It does the same thing, and even applies poison, without having to give up your instant cast "oh shit button".

thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

You watch out for what they do to steal anyway, you dont steal randomly.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Daredevil has essentially no trade off either

Lol. No tradeoff? Each dodge augment has its own tradeoffs and we lose 1200 range steal.

o.Osteal -> 1200 range30s cd

Swipe -> 600 range25s cdunblockable.that is a tradeoffextra dodge is just a cherry on top.

Actually its just a minor trait that got moved from acrobatics to Daredevil. Except the Acrobatics one was better.

and only dodge that has downside is dash, but its a small price to pay for perma swiftness, long range dashes and reduced damage taken

All of them have downsides. The condi one breaks stealth (Technically irrelevant, but yknow), and both it and the power one interact negatively with retal, Engineer shield and Lightning aura. Oh and, it also fucks you up if you hit into any counterhit attack since the evade frames are gone at that point, but the brief aftercast isnt. Minor downsides, yes, but the upsides are equally minor.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :)

Or rather, there is always a better thing to swipe than a block. Even if, for some reason, you are desperate to interrupt a block, just use shortbow 4. You dont care for speed when interrupting those, and the poison helps with healing if thats what youre worried about.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :)

Or rather, there is

always

a better thing to swipe than a block. Even if, for some reason, you are desperate to interrupt a block, just use shortbow 4. You dont care for speed when interrupting those, and the poison helps with healing if thats what youre worried about.

no there is not 90% of the time. if you attack anything with channeled block you swipe the block, always.its not just interrupting block, its denying the enemy time to regain other defensive cooldowns.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :)

Or rather, there is

always

a better thing to swipe than a block. Even if, for some reason, you are desperate to interrupt a block, just use shortbow 4. You dont care for speed when interrupting those, and the poison helps with healing if thats what youre worried about.

no there is not 90% of the time. if you attack anything with channeled block you swipe the block, always.its not just interrupting block, its denying the enemy time to regain other defensive cooldowns.

I'll see if I can get the clip.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Daredevil has essentially no trade off either

Lol. No tradeoff? Each dodge augment has its own tradeoffs and we lose 1200 range steal.

o.Osteal -> 1200 range30s cd

Swipe -> 600 range25s cdunblockable.that is a tradeoffextra dodge is just a cherry on top.

Actually its just a minor trait that got moved from acrobatics to Daredevil. Except the Acrobatics one was

better

.

and only dodge that has downside is dash, but its a small price to pay for perma swiftness, long range dashes and reduced damage taken

All of them have downsides. The condi one breaks stealth (Technically irrelevant, but yknow), and both it and the power one interact negatively with retal, Engineer shield and Lightning aura. Oh and, it also kitten you up if you hit into any counterhit attack since the evade frames are gone at that point, but the brief aftercast isnt. Minor downsides, yes, but the upsides are equally minor.

ah yes, the free damage reveals you, thats some first world problems right there."minor" upsides. torment, bleed, cripple, power damage and whirl finisherand 10% dmg boost "minor"aoe damage, 10% damage bonus and blast finisher " minor "long range dash, condi cleanse, perma swiftness and -10% damage taken "minor" indeed.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Daredevil has essentially no trade off either

Lol. No tradeoff? Each dodge augment has its own tradeoffs and we lose 1200 range steal.

o.Osteal -> 1200 range30s cd

Swipe -> 600 range25s cdunblockable.that is a tradeoffextra dodge is just a cherry on top.

Actually its just a minor trait that got moved from acrobatics to Daredevil. Except the Acrobatics one was

better

.

and only dodge that has downside is dash, but its a small price to pay for perma swiftness, long range dashes and reduced damage taken

All of them have downsides. The condi one breaks stealth (Technically irrelevant, but yknow), and both it and the power one interact negatively with retal, Engineer shield and Lightning aura. Oh and, it also kitten you up if you hit into any counterhit attack since the evade frames are gone at that point, but the brief aftercast isnt. Minor downsides, yes, but the upsides are equally minor.

ah yes, the free damage reveals you, thats some first world problems right there."minor" upsides. torment, bleed, cripple, power damage and whirl finisherand 10% dmg boost "minor"aoe damage, 10% damage bonus and blast finisher " minor "long range dash, condi cleanse, perma swiftness and -10% damage taken "minor" indeed.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/652523721?t=01h40m19s

Not allowed to make clips on his channel. 1h40m20s for why interrupting channeled blocks with Swipe is good. Seriously why is this an argument with some people.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :)

Or rather, there is

always

a better thing to swipe than a block. Even if, for some reason, you are desperate to interrupt a block, just use shortbow 4. You dont care for speed when interrupting those, and the poison helps with healing if thats what youre worried about.

no there is not 90% of the time. if you attack anything with channeled block you swipe the block, always.

Nope. You basically never swipe the block. Youd much rather keep swipe for a healing skill, a glyph, a signet, or anything else that is time-sensitive. But, more importantly ...

its not just interrupting block, its denying the enemy time to regain other defensive cooldowns.

Lets ignore that you would rather interrupt the other defensive cooldowns than the block. Here is the problem: You have shortbow 4. Why would you use swipe instead of shortbow 4 in a case that isnt time-sensitive? Even in the case that interrupting the block is the correct play, the correct way of doing it is shortbow 4, not swipe.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Daredevil has essentially no trade off either

Lol. No tradeoff? Each dodge augment has its own tradeoffs and we lose 1200 range steal.

o.Osteal -> 1200 range30s cd

Swipe -> 600 range25s cdunblockable.that is a tradeoffextra dodge is just a cherry on top.

Actually its just a minor trait that got moved from acrobatics to Daredevil. Except the Acrobatics one was

better

.

and only dodge that has downside is dash, but its a small price to pay for perma swiftness, long range dashes and reduced damage taken

All of them have downsides. The condi one breaks stealth (Technically irrelevant, but yknow), and both it and the power one interact negatively with retal, Engineer shield and Lightning aura. Oh and, it also kitten you up if you hit into any counterhit attack since the evade frames are gone at that point, but the brief aftercast isnt. Minor downsides, yes, but the upsides are equally minor.

ah yes, the free damage reveals you, thats some first world problems right there.

I did say "minor upsides".

"minor" upsides. torment, bleed, cripple, power damage and whirl finisherand 10% dmg boost "minor"

Yep, minor. Ever wondered why the condi builds arent using Daredevil? Its because the condis last so little time and have so few stacks that they dont matter, and the boost, while the only useful thing, isnt useful enough.

aoe damage, 10% damage bonus and blast finisher " minor "

Leap finisher actually. And yeah, good luck hitting that AoE damage. There is a reason no one ever used bound, the fact that it sucks.

long range dash, condi cleanse, perma swiftness and -10% damage taken "minor" indeed.

This one doesnt have minor upsides, but the downsides arent minor either.

[Lighter.5631]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.

Its rare that you want to interrupt a block in the first place. If you do however, just swap to shortbow and use shortbow 4. It does the same thing, and even applies poison, without having to give up your instant cast "oh kitten button".

thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

You watch out for what they do to steal anyway, you dont steal randomly.

you do realize interrupting any block follow backstab is easy gank right?because clearly shortbow 4 does burst damage, we should all start ganking +1 with shortbow 4 nowi'm top 100 soloq thief i don't need people to teach me basics, not to mention when it's clearly wrong.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.

Its rare that you want to interrupt a block in the first place. If you do however, just swap to shortbow and use shortbow 4. It does the same thing, and even applies poison, without having to give up your instant cast "oh kitten button".

thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

You watch out for what they do to steal anyway, you dont steal randomly.

you do realize interrupting any block is easy gank right?

I mean being thief is an easy gank. Sure, if your timing lines up perfectly that you arrive in swipe range just as he blocks, then yeah, feel free to use it. Youre not going to get that perfect timing very often though.

when you can steal heartseek backstab for instant block interrupt+burst take down, why would you swap to shortbow 4 and do no damage and waste time

Again, in that specific timing, sure, its correct. But thats a narrow timing you wont see very often.

i'm top 100 soloq thief i don't need people to teach me how to thief, wasting steal is crucial for thieves and being unblockable eliminate one of the key factor limiting your steal.

Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is super narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive.

[Lighter.5631]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is super narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive.

lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is

super

narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive.

lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong.

Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it multiple times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too.

[Lighter.5631]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is

super

narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive.

lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong.

Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it

multiple

times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too.

even if team fight, steal is always best to used to take down key target, without downed enemy there will be no glyph, you are basically saving steal for nothing.you do realize sindrener is not specifically saving steal for glyph right?

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is

super

narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive.

lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong.

Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it

multiple

times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too.

yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol

Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA.

[Lighter.5631]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is

super

narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive.

lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong.

Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it

multiple

times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too.

yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol

Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA.

do you realize there's headshot right?