What does Core Engineer Need to be More Viable to Match the Level of Elite Specs?

[hugo.4705]

There is a balance patch coming soon, and apparently a big one, (said by dev during stream in chat). For Engie, I really hope they revamp turrets to make them worth using again.

[Chaith.8256]

@UNOwen.7132 said:rifle is kind of outdated nowadays.

More like actively nerfed into the ground every patch cause Holo used it! lol

Edit: Haven't used Rifle in a dog's age

[wasss.1208]

Rifle wasn't even a bad weapon, until they started to give it quality of life nerfs. Autoattacks now misses at long range all the time, Net Shot can miss from ridiciously short distances, and Overcharged Shot is the the worst CC weaponskill in the game. Blunderbuss and Jump Shot are good.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:rifle is kind of outdated nowadays.

More like actively nerfed into the ground every patch cause Holo used it! lol

Edit: Haven't used Rifle in a dog's age

That too, but I would also argue that rifle not having an active defense is a pretty big point against it. Engineer doesnt really have many in general, and while Elixir S is good, it also prevents capture point contribution.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Upgrade the F5 to be more decisive. (Orvital strike is useless for too long CD, the med pack is ok with long cd too, but scrapper is more ok than ok)May be put a -20% CD on tool belt skills fore core or +25% for scrapper/holo.Otherwise, every balance will obviously impact holo and scrapper.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:Upgrade the F5 to be more decisive. (Orvital strike is useless for too long CD, the med pack is ok with long cd too, but scrapper is more ok than ok)May be put a -20% CD on tool belt skills fore core or +25% for scrapper/holo.Otherwise, every balance will obviously impact holo and scrapper.This is such a weird argument.

Core already has this possibility since they can run tools as third traitline instead of an elite, giving you 15% reduced toolbelt cd. And they are they only class that can use the elite toolbelt F5 skill. Scrapper and holo dont even have the option for orbital strike. And core is the only one that can use moa, which can win fights. Sure scrapper/holo can run tools too. Just choose what else you want to loose. I recommend dumping explosives or alchemy, no one need that entrance or sustain.

Oh and btw - tools traits was nerfed last balance patch. Because of course it was. So how you see the chance for a buff is beyond me. Because every balance will obviously impact core.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Upgrade the F5 to be more decisive. (Orvital strike is useless for too long CD, the med pack is ok with long cd too, but scrapper is more ok than ok)May be put a -20% CD on tool belt skills fore core or +25% for scrapper/holo.Otherwise, every balance will obviously impact holo and scrapper.This is such a weird argument.

Core already has this possibility since they can run tools as third traitline instead of an elite, giving you 15% reduced toolbelt cd.

? So ? I'm not asking to balance the spec lane.

Sure scrapper/holo can run tools too. Just choose what else you want to loose. I recommend dumping explosives or alchemy, no one need that entrance or sustain.

You have just figured Elite specs ?

And they are they only class that can use the elite toolbelt F5 skill. Scrapper and holo dont even have the option for orbital strike. And core is the only one that can use moa, which can win fights.

That's all the point. It's the only "trade-off" of holo and scraper over core, and F5 could bring more. It's supposed to be an "elite" tool belt skill, but 2/3 of them are not worth to use ..... So I suggest to boost them or rework F5. Get it ?And about the unicity of Moa ... Weird argument ? I haven't even mentioned it. Will we enumerate all the unique skills of the game and classes ?Did you know Elem is the unique class to have conjured weapons ? Which can win the game ?

Oh and btw - tools traits was nerfed last balance patch. Because of course it was. So how you see the chance for a buff is beyond me.

Because core was obviously too strong with tools lane :+1:Wait, it was holo. :#Wait, I didn't mentioned the tools traits. :#

Because every balance will obviously impact core.

I don't know ... Now you spoke about it ...Upgrade F5 to be more decisive ??????????? :#

Seriously, you're not wrong. It's just you are completely off the mark.Please, I was suggesting to upgrade F5 and the tool belt skills fore core, not to nerf your moa skill, not to change the tools traits.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:And about the unicity of Moa ... Weird argument ? I haven't even mentioned it. Will we enumerate all the unique skills of the game and classes ?Did you know Elem is the unique class to have conjured weapons ? Which can win the game ?Core eles, tempest and weaver can all use conjured weapons (both normal skills and the elite), unlike where only core engie can use F5 toolbelt skills for elite skills since for scrapper and holo it's replaced by their specific mechanics (function gyro and photon forge).

Another weird argument.

I was pointing out that core already have an "upgraded" F5 compared to scrapper and holo. You can choose what to use there based on your elite. And core also have a the third traitline to further trait toolbelt if they want. Scrapper/holo that can only choose 2 lines - which in terms of meta often isnt tools. If they choose to buff tools, they sacrifice something else. Core has already chosen not to use scrapper/holo.

Even a 20% cd reduction or whatever on the toolbelt skills wont help core perform much better anyway. The flaws with core is the primary weapons - pistol still has broken auto-attack speed which would go a long way to improve it if Anet actually used the cd the skill says it has instead of being like 30% slower firing than it's supposed to be. And the rifle desperately need to be updated with the same ammo overhaul that the warrior rifle got (maybe even pistol too).

But of course... that's gonna buff scrapper and holo too if they dont use hammer/sword.

[bambi.6214]

Core and especs ale simply too close to each other. Except of substantially buffing f5, I highly doubt there's a way to convince me to abandon photon forge or hammer... Unless they nerf those to the ground and make engi not playable at all.

Edit: unless they rwork entire profession from the ground. Which won't happen coz we all know how much time ANet wants to commit to engineer in the dev time (as little as possible, since applying changes to gadgeteer'd gadgets usually takes them 1-2 months after a patch)

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:And about the unicity of Moa ... Weird argument ? I haven't even mentioned it. Will we enumerate all the unique skills of the game and classes ?Did you know Elem is the unique class to have conjured weapons ? Which can win the game ?Core eles, tempest and weaver can all use conjured weapons (both normal skills and the elite), unlike where only core engie can use F5 toolbelt skills for elite skills since for scrapper and holo it's replaced by their specific mechanics (function gyro and photon forge).

Another weird argument.

I was pointing out that core already have an "upgraded" F5 compared to scrapper and holo. You can choose what to use there based on your elite. And core also have a the third traitline to further trait toolbelt if they want. Scrapper/holo that can only choose 2 lines - which in terms of meta often isnt tools. If they choose to buff tools, they sacrifice something else. Core has already chosen not to use scrapper/holo.

Even a 20% cd reduction or whatever on the toolbelt skills wont help core perform much better anyway. The flaws with core is the primary weapons - pistol still has broken auto-attack speed which would go

a long way

to improve it if Anet actually used the cd the skill says it has instead of being like 30% slower firing than it's supposed to be. And the rifle desperately need to be updated with the same ammo overhaul that the warrior rifle got (maybe even pistol too).

But of course... that's gonna buff scrapper and holo too if they dont use hammer/sword.

I don't get it. I don't need a class about elite spec and core. The fact I talked about orbital strike and the med pack drop was not obvious I knew about F5 ?

You're not okai with the idea to upgrade core F5 ?Seems to me the only way to give a better identity and usefulness to core Engie over the elite specs ; without they nerf holo/scrapper.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:And about the unicity of Moa ... Weird argument ? I haven't even mentioned it. Will we enumerate all the unique skills of the game and classes ?Did you know Elem is the unique class to have conjured weapons ? Which can win the game ?Core eles, tempest and weaver can all use conjured weapons (both normal skills and the elite), unlike where only core engie can use F5 toolbelt skills for elite skills since for scrapper and holo it's replaced by their specific mechanics (function gyro and photon forge).

Another weird argument.

I was pointing out that core already have an "upgraded" F5 compared to scrapper and holo. You can choose what to use there based on your elite. And core also have a the third traitline to further trait toolbelt if they want. Scrapper/holo that can only choose 2 lines - which in terms of meta often isnt tools. If they choose to buff tools, they sacrifice something else. Core has already chosen not to use scrapper/holo.

Even a 20% cd reduction or whatever on the toolbelt skills wont help core perform much better anyway. The flaws with core is the primary weapons - pistol still has broken auto-attack speed which would go

a long way

to improve it if Anet actually used the cd the skill says it has instead of being like 30% slower firing than it's supposed to be. And the rifle desperately need to be updated with the same ammo overhaul that the warrior rifle got (maybe even pistol too).

But of course... that's gonna buff scrapper and holo too if they dont use hammer/sword.

I don't get it. I don't need a class about elite spec and core. The fact I talked about orbital strike and the med pack drop was not obvious I knew about F5 ?

You're not okai with the idea to upgrade core F5 ?Seems to me the only way to give a better identity and usefulness to core Engie over the elite specs ; without they nerf holo/scrapper.Not ok at all with the way you phrase it, no. Thats the kind of dangerous thinking thats messed up engineer before. "Upgrades". Because Purity Of Purpose.

You could just say reduced cd on orbital strike and meddrop.

[Axl.8924]

I got a question to you engineer guys:

Do you think scrapper on top of holosmith warrants a nerf? and how so?

And should core be touched along with this? and what exactly?

[Taril.8619]

@Axl.8924 said:Do you think scrapper on top of holosmith warrants a nerf? and how so?

Scrapper? Nah, it's fine. If anything, it could maybe use some buffs given it's really only notable in WvW. While in PvP/PvE it's less prevalent and useful.

Holosmith? Possibly. It's one of the PvP builds that people complain about right now. I think one of the main concerns is its capacity to stack Might on itself (Which of course, it gets double value from due to the plethora of hybrid damage skills - Photon Blitz, Refraction Cutter, Shrapnel Grenade and Poison Grenade all have good power scaling as well as providing conditions)

I'd say targetting Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit's Might would be the best course, so that other builds that run HGH don't suffer. Also, it might make Vent Exhaust and Photonic Blasting Module more competitive instead of being completely outclassed by ECSU in basically all situations.

@Axl.8924 said:And should core be touched along with this? and what exactly?

Core shouldn't be nerfed. It's not OP.

[Dawdler.8521]

Scrapper mainly just need the condi barrier change that we where promised but Anet then said nope cant do it. So its not looking likely.

Personally I think they need to look at global things before they start wrecking classes, such as whether might really should give that much stats, whether PVE stats should have 1000 more points than PvP stats, or CC should have an icd of at least ~2-3s so you have a chance not to be permastunned to death when you meet multiple people, stuff like that. They need to look at the way stab works (again) and the way reflects works because complete immunity to projectiles in zergs is stupid. Maybe changes to healing to make it less direct and more regenerative so that supports cant hardcarry dps, but still provide healing.

I am also still a heavy proponent to scrapping this ridiculous skillsplit nonsense and balancing everything uniformly with PvP/WvW in mind first but of course PvErs would throw a complete tantrum if, heaven forbid, their numbers isnt as big as they where before, even if PvE mobs health was balanced exactly to match the same killtimes as before.

[Chaith.8256]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Scrapper mainly just need the condi barrier change that we where promised but Anet then said nope cant do it. So its not looking likely.

Personally I think they need to look at global things before they start wrecking classes, such as whether might really should give that much stats, whether PVE stats should have 1000 more points than PvP stats, or CC should have an icd of at least ~2-3s so you have a chance not to be permastunned to death when you meet multiple people, stuff like that. They need to look at the way stab works (again) and the way reflects works because complete immunity to projectiles in zergs is stupid. Maybe changes to healing to make it less direct and more regenerative so that supports cant hardcarry dps, but still provide healing.

I am also still a heavy proponent to scrapping this ridiculous skillsplit nonsense and balancing everything uniformly with PvP/WvW in mind first but of course PvErs would throw a complete tantrum if, heaven forbid, their numbers isnt as big as they where before, even if PvE mobs health was balanced exactly to match the same killtimes as before.

There's nothing wrong with splitting PvP, WvW, and PvE. We've begged for this after years of suffering in your ideal balance philosophy.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Chaith.8256" said:There's nothing wrong with splitting PvP, WvW, and PvE. We've begged for this after years of suffering in your ideal balance philosophy.And the reason being Anet refuse to balance PvE after years of buffing it through the roof instead of actually balancing it. It has nothing to do with a supposed "ideal balance philosophy". Anet hasnt had any philosophy for PvE so it has to do with balancing period.

[Chaith.8256]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Chaith.8256" said:There's nothing wrong with splitting PvP, WvW, and PvE. We've begged for this after years of suffering in your ideal balance philosophy.And the reason being Anet refuse to balance PvE after years of buffing it through the roof instead of actually balancing it. It has nothing to do with a supposed "ideal balance philosophy". Anet hasnt had

any

philosophy for PvE so it has to do with balancing period.

No I was saying your ideal balance philosophy, ie: the one you are a heavy proponent of, as a playerbase we fought against it for years because ArenaNet could not make it work. It's better now, history has told us

@Dawdler.8521 said:I am also still a heavy proponent to scrapping this ridiculous skillsplit nonsense and balancing everything uniformly

[Dawdler.8521]

@Chaith.8256 said:It's better now, history has told usYeah the PvP forum surely agrees lol.

Anyway with the patch notes out it is a hallelujah moment and some relief. Plus Zhaid should be happy. His medpack drop and orbital strike got significantly reduced cds.

[Chaith.8256]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:It's better now, history has told usYeah the PvP forum surely agrees lol.

As in, complainers are still complaining about balance, so if PvP/PvE splits were good, they wouldn't be complaining?

Hahaha

[Jaykay.9641]

So looks like Anet has posted some upcoming patch notes. It seems their first attempt at giving Core Engineer some buffs is mainly reducing the CD"s on a couple F5 skills, which has been discussed in this thread. Appreciative, but doesn't feel like it will have any big effect. Other changes include a small buff to Pistol and berfs to shield and it's Invention talent. Flamethrower basically got straight up buffed so we'll see how that goes, mainly a buff to the Flamethrower Scrapper build. The Soothing Detonation talent seems like a nice buff, but probably going to Scrapper as well.

I'm sure we'll see some added changes; especially involving some more PvP/PvE splits, but what's everyone's first impression to the Core Engi changes?

[killahmayne.9518]

I feel like Core Engineer should be given a free swap on any of their utility kits (i.e: Tool Kit, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun). Core Engineer lacks diversity as it is with your choice being an underwhelming rifle or a pistol that is not quite up to par. As far as utility belt skill goes not sure what to do there, perhaps it activates when you switch to that weapon? Or I think even better just make it the F5 skill, and perhaps incorporate the F5 elites into the Elite's somehow by buffing them a bit? I think it's basically the same idea as yours. It would really bring some diversity to the class while giving them the flexibility and options by allowing them to choose utilities, and perhaps even more kits if so desired.

Rifle is in such a terrible spot imo, for such a slow and clunky weapon, it does like zero damage. IMO it's more tricky to balance traitlines with the objective to buff core specs. They are better off adding something unique to the core specs which Scrappers and Holosmith do not have access to. But some of the traitlines themselves could use cleaning up. To me Tools and Firearms are the worst offenders of needing a cleanup.