DPS meter policy needs to be revised

[Coulter.2315]

@Panda.1967 said:

In other MMOs classes have defined roles, Tanks and Healers are accepted to not need to deal high damage. People don't question your DPS when you're not on a DPS class in those games. Here however, the game was designed to not have roles and not need roles, but at the same time was designed to allow for builds that fit into defined roles. Any class can play as a healer, tank, CC, or DPS. If I build for anything other than DPS, then my DPS is obviously going to be low. DPS meters have fueled the mentality of "DPS or bust", very few classes are given a break by the DPS meter community when it comes to this. If I'm on my elementalist I'm expected to be playing as a glass cannon with massive DPS, an expectation that I will not live up to on my elementalist, I run a support build. A DPS meter won't tell anyone that though. They will see that I'm an elementalist with Tempest elite spec and assume "Fresh Air DPS who's not even coming close to the 30k DPS benchmark, time to kick". The single focus "DPS or bust" outlook of a lot of the community is a problem that is fueled and exacerbated by DPS meters.

You could just tell the group you're support. This is just a communication problem, DPS eles are the norm and it is reasonable to assume you're DPS when you join as ele. Once people know you're in the tank/support role they just ignore your DPS like any other game.

[Incarne.4927]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

In other MMOs classes have defined roles, Tanks and Healers are accepted to not need to deal high damage. People don't question your DPS when you're not on a DPS class in those games. Here however, the game was designed to not have roles and not need roles, but at the same time was designed to allow for builds that fit into defined roles. Any class can play as a healer, tank, CC, or DPS. If I build for anything other than DPS, then my DPS is obviously going to be low. DPS meters have fueled the mentality of "DPS or bust", very few classes are given a break by the DPS meter community when it comes to this. If I'm on my elementalist I'm expected to be playing as a glass cannon with massive DPS, an expectation that I will not live up to on my elementalist, I run a support build. A DPS meter won't tell anyone that though. They will see that I'm an elementalist with Tempest elite spec and assume "Fresh Air DPS who's not even coming close to the 30k DPS benchmark, time to kick". The single focus "DPS or bust" outlook of a lot of the community is a problem that is fueled and exacerbated by DPS meters.

You could just tell the group you're support. This is just a communication problem, DPS eles are the norm and it is reasonable to assume you're DPS when you join as ele. Once people know you're in the tank/support role they just ignore your DPS like any other game.

Thank you!

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Panda.1967 said:To address the handful of arguments against giving us a choice.

"You can just post no-meters in LFG"We can, yes, but there is the problem of people who simply don't read the LFG and just click join on the first one in the list, and trolls/griefers who see such listing as an open invitation. We have to deal with such people, often resulting in searching for a replacement party member mid run or looking for an entirely new group for future runs.

"adding such an option will just result in kicks for not having a meter."Yes, this will happen, and we're ok with this. This is NOT a problem. If you create a group and want everyone to use a DPS meter, that is your prerogative and you have the right to kick anyone who doesn't want to adhere to your groups rules. If I want to create a group without DPS meters and you join and start spamming your DPS meter, I have every right to kick you.

Pick a new argument, neither of those are going to get you anywhere. We're going to be going in endless circles if you keep up with those old arguments.

I agree with everything you said, but now my question is: Then what's the point of letting you activate/deactivate it, if it's not gonna change anything?

Now to outline exactly why DPS meters are so much more of an issue to people here than on other MMOs.

In other MMOs classes have defined roles, Tanks and Healers are accepted to not need to deal high damage. People don't question your DPS when you're not on a DPS class in those games. Here however, the game was designed to not have roles and not need roles, but at the same time was designed to allow for builds that fit into defined roles. Any class can play as a healer, tank, CC, or DPS. If I build for anything other than DPS, then my DPS is obviously going to be low. DPS meters have fueled the mentality of "DPS or bust", very few classes are given a break by the DPS meter community when it comes to this. If I'm on my elementalist I'm expected to be playing as a glass cannon with massive DPS, an expectation that I will not live up to on my elementalist, I run a support build. A DPS meter won't tell anyone that though. They will see that I'm an elementalist with Tempest elite spec and assume "Fresh Air DPS who's not even coming close to the 30k DPS benchmark, time to kick". The single focus "DPS or bust" outlook of a lot of the community is a problem that is fueled and exacerbated by DPS meters.

That is not true. If you're mesmer or druid in raids, people won't expect high dps (even if you can...)However they will expect you to know mechanics and know when to do support/tricks (mesmer) or heal (druid) etc.There's a few scenario where auramancer works well too.There are elite classes dedicated to support or healing now.

[maddoctor.2738]

I see this thread is still going.A couple of things, first in instanced content the dps meters are indeed opt-in. When you join an experienced group there is a higher possibility that a meter will be used, especially if something goes horribly wrong. I remember another thread when someone said "they used a dps meter to verify it". If you are a liar and a cheat and the run goes smoothly you will probably go un-noticed anyway. If something bad happens and there is suspicion of fraud then someone might activate the meter to figure out what's wrong with the "experienced" group and who got in without actually being experienced. Fair use to root out the liars and cheats, since the game offers no other way

Then we get to the issue of healing Elementalists, which comes up way too often. When you join an experienced run, each profession has an expected role to play, an Elementalist is supposed to be at the top of dps charts. It's common courtesy to tell your group if you are not using the norm. That way the second Auramancer can change, or the Druid can swap to a dps build or whatever else, it's not like a competent group will kick a healing Elementalist, they are actually GREAT at healing, you just need to communicate with your team that you are one. Having expectations makes runs go faster and smoother because when someone joins, you expect their build without having to ask everyone what they are running. Be polite and mention if you are not using the expected build, so the team can adapt, don't lie and don't cheat to enter groups you are not supposed to enter.

When all the above happens, dps meter can only be used for good in instanced content and any "abuse" is simply eliminated.And now for the second part, dps meters in the open world. I assume the OP never used ArcDPS in the open world, otherwise they'd know that it is practically useless. Yes you need to be in a squad or party for it to count, but also it counts all your damage regardless of target. You might go hit some rabbits nearby for millions of damage and arcdps will happily put you at the top of the dps list. Also, the dps chart resets when combat ends, try doing Chak Gerent with ArcDPS and you will never get the full dps reading because it will reset after each phase. So those claiming they can see the dps at World Bosses, they do not actually see anything accurate there.And aside that, suppose that someone knows how much damage you did on Shadow Behemoth. So what? What can they do with it? There are lower level players at world bosses, there are leveling characters and new players with green and rare gear, all players you'd never see in hardcore PVE content anyway so knowing their dps is irrelevant, and useless. Why do you care so much about it?

[Feanor.2358]

@Panda.1967 said:"adding such an option will just result in kicks for not having a meter."Yes, this will happen, and we're ok with this. This is NOT a problem.

It is a problem, and a very big one at that. It creates a totally unnecessary new level of elitism. It will filter out a lot of players who would do just fine and would be accepted under the current status quo. You're basically asking that the high-end PvE be pigeonholed even further, reducing its already not-so-high playerbase and making forming a new group harder and slower. All that because you "feel spied"? Forgive me for not sympathizing to such a childish request.

[Rhanoa.3960]

Introducing Meters continues to enable that behavior, but in larger scale as it becomes more acceptable. We already have games like this in the MMO Market.

When purchasing GW2 I wasn't sold on the idea of being EFFICIENT or to OPTIMIZE my profession (as I already knew that comes with the territory), but I get to play how I want to without retaliation.

4 options for those PRO Meters:

1. Remove combat logs entirely
2. Remove Meters entirely
3. Penalize those who choose to advertise or share it, if they choose to use it.
4. Performance IncentiveYou want to set expectations on Performance in a VIDEO GAME Folks should expect something in return as well.
   • Gem Store gift items of 500 gems + or - depending on the content
   • 40 Ectos worth up to 10g per Boss fight (subjected to market value)
   • Items worth up to 10g per Boss Fight (subjected to market value)
   • 10g per boss

[Javelin.7960]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:I don't think anyone in this thread is a senior developer or producer for this game. None of us are making resource allocation decisions, so feel free to 'dream big'. As a concept, absent any resource constraints, would you have a problem with a programmatic solution that addressed the concern and allowed individual accounts to disable DPS metering for their toons, provided their status in that regard was publicly provided prior to joining a group/squad/whatever?

I just don't see why anyone would have a problem with that, rationales used to justify it notwithstanding.

Why ?

If you absolutely do not want DPS meters, don't install one and don't join groups that use them. It's the much simpler approach and requires significantly less overhead.Sorry if you don't like my liberal nature when it comes to programming but there's never been a need to add more checks when a human system already exist.

I asked a simple question, one I've asked repeatedly and apparently has people so terrified they'll say about anything to avoid answering it. It's a conceptual question, not a resource question, not a question of practicality. The current status of things isn't relevant to it, it's about of how things could be, not how things are today.

I get it though, if I were some of you I'd not want to admit I'm opposed to my fellow players having a choice that wouldn't impact me negatively, it's not the sort of opinion people want to broadcast about themselves.

No, i don't think you do get it.

You have choices, but instead of using them. I.E Choosing not to interact with people who use DPS meters as a whole, you'd rather big brother design a "choice" that already exist for you.

Why ?What makes you think this "Choice" is required to be built in when the ecosystem it exist in is already opt in to begin with ?

I'd love a sincere answer from you since you, without the backhanded insults this time if possible.

Because your idea of choice places all of the burden, and all of the cost, solely on those who wish do not use a meter. I'll ask again: What is so wrong with the concept of both parties having an equal choice in the thing? You don't want to group with someone who blocks metering, don't; someone who blocks metering doesn't want to group with those who require it, great, don't. Everyone gets what they want, but for some reason no one will articulate, that's highly objectionable. Stating the current rules isn't an argument against that, nor is saying you don't think development time should be allocated for it. They are both an appeal to authority, in other words, not an actual argument.

Everyone is not getting what they want now; this thread exists, that's proof enough of that. The situation as it exists today is anything but an equal choice; reality is anyone can meter, anytime they want, and maybe their reasons are completely legit and maybe they aren't, maybe the complaints about issues with the meter are legit and maybe they aren't, which gets us exactly nowhere. My time is just as valuable as anyone's, why should the burden of addressing this issue rest solely on my shoulders, when for the vast majority of the time this game has existed, the opposite situation was the case?

Over and over in this thread I've heard the plight of Meter guy, who just wants to get through the content. What about Casual guy, who joins, or starts, a PUG, only to be kicked without warning halfway through the content because Meter guy decided he wasn't good enough, or fast enough? Apparently his time is worth nothing? Meter fans like to point to the extreme scenario where the group has repeatedly wiped, my experience with meters tells me it will quickly progress to kicking people during a successful, but not ideally fast, run.

Like I said much earlier in this thread, I recognize the need for DPS meters. For truly challenging content like Raids, they are a net positive. For the overwhelming majority of the players of this game, who do not regularly participate in Raid content, they offer very little, and sacrifice greatly for it.

[Javelin.7960]

Incidentally, just something to think about for the pro-Meter folks. This thread was started by someone who believes the status quo, vis a vis DPS meters, needs to be revised. Game theory / dilemma analysis would indicate that the more we talk about it, the more likely that is to happen.

:astonished:

[GrubySzymek.1362]

From the beginning I get the feeling that not everyone understands what this thread is about and already assumed I want dps meter to be removed. This goes for both sides. That's not my intention. I understand the value of this tool, I agree it can provide positive results in ones gameplay just like it can provide unnecessary toxicity in group play. This is by definition just a tool and problems are always caused by people.

However, just like in real life, we have regulations to keep people in check. To guarantee fair treatment for everyone. Current state of DPS meter policy violates fair position between players in Tyria. It removes freedom of choice from (I dare to say) majority of the community, to gratify loud minority. This needs to be revied and changed.

I understand the argument of "make your own group". This old saying is there with us since the beginning of time, when the only intanced endgame were dungeons. I would agree with you on this. But I can't because of one simple thing.

Currently if I make my own group I have no instruments to execute my LFG requirements. I can't tell who is using DPS meter, I can't filter out for people not using this tool, the only option I have is to "believe" you are going to follow my rules. Meanwhile, people using DPS meters have all the power. They can advertise for top dps meta players and from the beginning they can evaluate their performance. They don't need to ask for permission, they just use this tool. And this tool affects not only people sharing it, well that would be awesome. This tool affects people who are unaware of it or who simply refuse to invade vanilla game client. This is why I find this an issue. The choice is there, but the options to execute the choice is left to only one group of players.

I do not accept that suddenly, after 4 years, game shifted and new rules (that are not even mentioned in game's documents, but happen to be random reddit post of ArenaNet employee) are for me to expect that literally everyone can now be using this tool, reading my account data and sharing it to other people without my consent. This is why it's a privacy issue. I have no power over it, I can't control it. All I can do is to pretend I'm okay with this.

This is also a security problem. Currently what ArcDPS does is reading game memory for DPS numbers. But why should I believe this? ArenaNet takes no responsibility for any damage caused by this tool. Deltaconnected also has no power to provide and execurity over my account. The problem is, this app reads game memory, everything, but shows you only dps numbers. I can already imagine situation that an update is pushed (which ArenaNet has no control over either) that can share much more information from my account. Even if they notice, all they can do is to forbid usage of this tool. But people will already be using it, downloaded and running. Before BGDM was forbidden, it had many options that violate security and privace of players' accounts. It took some time before Anet officialy forbid this tool and even then there are still people using it. There are still people not knowing this tool is forbidden!

That being said, I believe this is reasonable to review DPS meter policy to respect player's right to chose who he wants to play with and on what terms. Current in-game tools do not provide the freedom of choice, all the solutions are based on "belief" that ArcDPS is safe program and that players read my LFG and respect my rules.

I think this solution brings all the players on fair ground:- make ArcDPS to work as personal DPS meter

• make a function of sharing DPS values in your group but it should only work if player chooses to share their numbers and it's possible only between people using this tool
• do not allow this or any tool to share any data associated to identified accounts without consent of the owner of the account, this is how your API tools work so why DPS meter should be on different rules?

[Evolute.6239]

@Javelin.7960 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:I don't think anyone in this thread is a senior developer or producer for this game. None of us are making resource allocation decisions, so feel free to 'dream big'. As a concept, absent any resource constraints, would you have a problem with a programmatic solution that addressed the concern and allowed individual accounts to disable DPS metering for their toons, provided their status in that regard was publicly provided prior to joining a group/squad/whatever?

I just don't see why anyone would have a problem with that, rationales used to justify it notwithstanding.

Why ?

If you absolutely do not want DPS meters, don't install one and don't join groups that use them. It's the much simpler approach and requires significantly less overhead.Sorry if you don't like my liberal nature when it comes to programming but there's never been a need to add more checks when a human system already exist.

I asked a simple question, one I've asked repeatedly and apparently has people so terrified they'll say about anything to avoid answering it. It's a conceptual question, not a resource question, not a question of practicality. The current status of things isn't relevant to it, it's about of how things could be, not how things are today.

I get it though, if I were some of you I'd not want to admit I'm opposed to my fellow players having a choice that wouldn't impact me negatively, it's not the sort of opinion people want to broadcast about themselves.

No, i don't think you do get it.

You have choices, but instead of using them. I.E Choosing not to interact with people who use DPS meters as a whole, you'd rather big brother design a "choice" that already exist for you.

Why ?What makes you think this "Choice" is required to be built in when the ecosystem it exist in is already opt in to begin with ?

I'd love a sincere answer from you since you, without the backhanded insults this time if possible.

Because your idea of choice places all of the burden, and all of the cost, solely on those who wish do not use a meter. I'll ask again: What is so wrong with the concept of both parties having an

equal

choice in the thing?

There is zero reason to cater to the small small special snowflake minority who feel they are spied on because numbers in a video game that show if you're useful or not to a group.

There are solutions via blocking, own groups, own friends, etc.

You don't cater to people who think playable Charrs go against GW1 and make them a whole new Charrless game.

There are arguments for and against DPS meters, including adding more "elitism" to the game (which again I think is wrong already, even pre meter people were excluded for awful builds) but "we deserve a choice so force our choice on everyone" is not a good argument

As stated by many people, this would only make the community more elitist anyway. Have your DPS meter on or kick etc.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I think this solution brings all the players on fair ground:- make ArcDPS to work as personal DPS meter

• make a function of sharing DPS values in your group but it should only work if player chooses to share their numbers and it's possible only between people using this tool
• do not allow this or any tool to share any data associated to identified accounts without consent of the owner of the account, this is how your API tools work so why DPS meter should be on different rules?

What if told you I have no interest in running any kind of dps meter and make changes to my game files, but I'm perfectly fine with someone else running it to collect data then present them to me? How is your solution fair in that case?For example, in a Raid it's pointless for everyone to run their own dps meters, only one person does in order to collect the data of the entire team. With your "solution" everyone in the team would be obligated to go download a third-party piece of software that they might not want on their own computer, but they are fine when someone else is using it.A piece of software that gets messed up when the game is updated and requires downloading the next version.Plus I don't know the extra overhead and performance penalty on potato machines if you have a memory reader running in the background.You want Anet to force their playerbase to go download an external, third party, tool, that is still "use on your own risk" category

As for sharing the dps values, BGDM worked by sending your data to an external website, then it checked if the other people in your party/squad send them too and allowed you to view their data. By downloading them from an external website. Which means a latency hit. Both uploading and downloading, plus server load as the number of players using it increases. Plus the website could (and was) downed at times meaning a non-functioning dps meter. Relying on the uptime of an external website, plus the hit for the extra upload/download of information isn't worth it. And if reading someone else's dps is an invasion of privacy, sending the exact same data to an external website that Anet has absolutely no power over is even worse.

Only way for a BGDM-like dps meter to work is for Anet to allow a developer access to their servers, so they can store the data there so they can then be retrieved by the clients that use the meter. In a sense, a dps meter created by Anet themselves. Good luck with that

[GrubySzymek.1362]

What if told you I have no interest in running any kind of dps meter and make changes to my game files, but I'm perfectly fine with someone else running it to collect data then present them to me? How is your solution fair in that case?

My solution doesn't affect you. Clearly you don't care about your numbers, if you did, you would run dps meter. Meanwhile, in current state, my ability to choose is irrelevant because people running these tools have all the power to watch me, while I can't prevent it. Current situation is not fair, one side of the coin has more power than the other.

One more thing. It's amusing how not so long ago the community was asking for personal DPS meter. This is all you wanted, all you expected to get. Now, because of oversight on Anet's side, you got much more with 100% disprespect to all the players who are not interested in using 3rd party hacks or sharing their numbers. And suddenly, when I am asking to bring status quo to fair balance, I am being accused of bad gameplay, poor performance etc while none of you played with me. This is also great case of toxicity that these tools provide, which I accept but not like.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Panda.1967 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

My first encounter with a player running ArcDPS was some emotional child who, from the beginning of the fractal run, couldn't shut up about what his dork meter was telling him. At the end of the first frac, everyone else in the group left. It was supposed to be a full daily run. The problem? This was a tier 2 fractal, and the group was moving through the content just fine. No, hiding performance is not the only reason a person would have problems with a global DPS meter.

Yes, he could have been annoying for a host of other reasons

, but he WAS annoying because of his meter.

There you have it.A reasonable, normal person won't do such a thing. They know it's casual content. Only someone with behavioral issues will act this way, and indeed, they'll do that with or without the meter. And I see no reason to ruin the perks of having Arcdps just because some people happen to have it and happen to be jerks.

Reasonable, normal people don't go out and get blotto drunk and drive a car, either, but we have laws against it anyway, because not everyone is reasonable. Regulating unacceptable behavior is a perfectly legitimate use of administrative authority. If the bad outweighs the good, and I would argue it does for casual content, because people were snoozing through this stuff years before ArcDPS existed, then it's not unreasonable to discuss removing the tool that is enabling the bad behavior.

I'm not going to count the example you gave, it's too far removed from what we're discussing. It's a law because there is LIFE AND DEATH at stake in such a situation. If Arcdps could potentially endanger the lives of others by using it, then it would be gone faster than a sneeze. I don't think the bad outweighs the good. They're "snoozing" through such content, and you gave a tiny minority example of ONE person being badly behaved. But they're not "snoozing" through higher level content, where it actually counts.

Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Got sauce of someone commiting suicide over DPS meter bullying?

[Pug.9784]

Hi allI can only assume what hapened to me the other day was because of someone using a DPS thingy - Playing away at my own pace, as I do, in WvW...

A mail pops up saying... "Dude I see you hitting for ZERO points... and other comments like wtf/get a beter build/unrepeatable..

Really like how I have my nec set up as now can survive the odd me on two (even three once) fight rather than insta die (and as a near pensioner that's a bonus)Maybe I was hitting for zero points because my set up uses mostly condition and whoever I was hitting (as "invuneralble" kept popping up) had an immune trait/food/other on...

Would not have minded if it was a single, or construtive, comment as you can learn something new every day from forums and helpful comments from players..But this guy made me realise that maybe the comments I read about raids are true... because he just went into one on me...

As my broadband speed is not great (non fibre, basic adsl area) I would love the FPS at the botom of the options page to be displayed as an overlay.

But if DPS causes a player to have an indiscriminate meltdown against someone who is happily running around just having fun and keeping his brain active (with the odd smile when reviving the odd "God who walks around mortals/etc) then only allow them in raid areas where DPS maybe be a usefull thing and not a "let's hate anybody who does not mesaure up to MY standards" tool (before anyone else goes mental on me - yes I know a DPS tool can be very useful in raids... but you don't have to be a DPSTOOL about it.

[Cynn.1659]

Arc is not going to change, since it's 100% legal. All it does is process combat data provided by the game.Statement by anethttps://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5svug8/the_head_of_the_snake_devs_here_ask_us_anything/ddi7kta/

This whole rant is pointless. Don't like it, make your own group. Remove dps meters and you will see return of 20k ap or kick groups. Or no necro/ranger and whatever else class people feel like is underperforming. This is what going to happen, if you remove dps meters from the game

[Evolute.6239]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

My first encounter with a player running ArcDPS was some emotional child who, from the beginning of the fractal run, couldn't shut up about what his dork meter was telling him. At the end of the first frac, everyone else in the group left. It was supposed to be a full daily run. The problem? This was a tier 2 fractal, and the group was moving through the content just fine. No, hiding performance is not the only reason a person would have problems with a global DPS meter.

Yes, he could have been annoying for a host of other reasons

, but he WAS annoying because of his meter.

There you have it.A reasonable, normal person won't do such a thing. They know it's casual content. Only someone with behavioral issues will act this way, and indeed, they'll do that with or without the meter. And I see no reason to ruin the perks of having Arcdps just because some people happen to have it and happen to be jerks.

Reasonable, normal people don't go out and get blotto drunk and drive a car, either, but we have laws against it anyway, because not everyone is reasonable. Regulating unacceptable behavior is a perfectly legitimate use of administrative authority. If the bad outweighs the good, and I would argue it does for casual content, because people were snoozing through this stuff years before ArcDPS existed, then it's not unreasonable to discuss removing the tool that is enabling the bad behavior.

I'm not going to count the example you gave, it's too far removed from what we're discussing. It's a law because there is LIFE AND DEATH at stake in such a situation. If Arcdps could potentially endanger the lives of others by using it, then it would be gone faster than a sneeze. I don't think the bad outweighs the good. They're "snoozing" through such content, and you gave a tiny minority example of ONE person being badly behaved. But they're not "snoozing" through higher level content, where it actually counts.

Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Got sauce of someone commiting suicide over DPS meter bullying?

There is no source. It's one of the biggest mental gymnastic leaps I've ever seen in my life.

[Nick.6972]

Here's a question for people who want to just want to get carried ;given ArcDPS was reworked and now required people to "opt-in" in order to broadcast their DPS to other members, - wouldn't this be breeding ground for even more discrimination of bad players? If I'm doing raids/cms and I see someone is unwilling to show their DPS - I'm not taking them in my party.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Cynn.1659 said:Arc is not going to change, since it's 100% legal. All it does is process combat data provided by the game.Statement by anethttps://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5svug8/the_head_of_the_snake_devs_here_ask_us_anything/ddi7kta/

This whole rant is pointless. Don't like it, make your own group. Remove dps meters and you will see return of 20k ap or kick groups. Or no necro/ranger and whatever else class people feel like is underperforming. This is what going to happen, if you remove dps meters from the game

I am not voting for removing DPS meters. Try again after you actually read what I'm asking for.

Here's a question for people who want to just want to get carried ;given ArcDPS was reworked and now required people to "opt-in" in order to broadcast their DPS to other members, - wouldn't this be breeding ground for even more discrimination of bad players? If I'm doing raids/cms and I see someone is unwilling to show their DPS - I'm not taking them in my party.

And this is fair situation. Currently you waste your time carrying someone doing 10k on weaver, you kick him and waste even more time looking for new player. If this was implemented you would ask for sharing dps meter from the start and simply not play with people who refuse to do so (because by the logic of pro crowd they have something to hide). Also, I find this funny that you already assume I, or people who understand my post and share my view, that we want to be carried. There are people who act like this of course, but if I insulted you up front only because you expect me to play with dps meter, you would act offended to the point of boiling.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

What if told you I have no interest in running any kind of dps meter and make changes to my game files, but I'm perfectly fine with someone else running it to collect data then present them to me? How is your solution fair in that case?

My solution doesn't affect you. Clearly you don't care about your numbers, if you did, you would run dps meter.

But I do care about my numbers. I don't want to use a meter to see them for a variety of reasons (mostly technical) that I already posted and you obviously ignored.BGDM was more accurate than ArcDPS. BGDM allowed only those using it to see the numbers, unlike ArcDPS. But BGDM had its own share of major issues that do not exist in ArcDPS. Personally I preferred BGDM over ArcDPS, however with ArcDPS I can see my numbers without running a tool, I can see my numbers without the need to connect to an external website, and without uploading the data on said website, while downloading the data of the other people of the squad/party from that website.Not to mention server load and server costs for BGDM made it a not-so-ideal long term solution. You never knew when the BGDM service would be terminated anyway (regardless of breaking the TOS). Relying on an external server wasn't a very good solution and that's how BGDM managed to allow it to be shared only with other users.

And I'll say it again, the only solution is for Anet to give third party tool developers access to their servers to store that information, or make a dps meter of their own.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

But I do care about my numbers. I don't want to use a meter to see them for a variety of reasons (mostly technical) that I already posted and you obviously ignored.

ArenaNet provided you the solution with DPS golem. I don't see why my privacy should be invaded by default, with no option to refuse sharing my numbers, because you refuse to use this tool. If you want the numbers, use the meter. I don;t want these numbers but people still can spy on me.

[Paladine.6082]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However, allowing this tool has come with certain oversight that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players. Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game. ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game, make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works. It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

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EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

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EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

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EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

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EDIT4: From the beginning I get the feeling that not everyone understands what this thread is about and already assumed I want dps meter to be removed. This goes for both sides. That's not my intention. I understand the value of this tool, I agree it can provide positive results in ones gameplay just like it can provide unnecessary toxicity in group play. This is by definition just a tool and problems are always caused by people.

However, just like in real life, we have regulations to keep people in check. To guarantee fair treatment for everyone. Current state of DPS meter policy violates fair position between players in Tyria. It removes freedom of choice from (I dare to say) majority of the community, to gratify loud minority. This needs to be revied and changed.

I understand the argument of "make your own group". This old saying is there with us since the beginning of time, when the only intanced endgame were dungeons. I would agree with you on this. But I can't because of one simple thing.

Currently if I make my own group I have no instruments to execute my LFG requirements. I can't tell who is using DPS meter, I can't filter out for people not using this tool, the only option I have is to "believe" you are going to follow my rules. Meanwhile, people using DPS meters have all the power. They can advertise for top dps meta players and from the beginning they can evaluate their performance. They don't need to ask for permission, they just use this tool. And this tool affects not only people sharing it, well that would be awesome. This tool affects people who are unaware of it or who simply refuse to invade vanilla game client. This is why I find this an issue. The choice is there, but the options to execute the choice is left to only one group of players.

I do not accept that suddenly, after 4 years, game shifted and new rules (that are not even mentioned in game's documents, but happen to be random reddit post of ArenaNet employee) are for me to expect that literally everyone can now be using this tool, reading my account data and sharing it to other people without my consent. This is why it's a privacy issue. I have no power over it, I can't control it. All I can do is to pretend I'm okay with this.

This is also a security problem. Currently what ArcDPS does is reading game memory for DPS numbers. But why should I believe this? ArenaNet takes no responsibility for any damage caused by this tool. Deltaconnected also has no power to provide any security for my account. The problem is, this app reads game memory, everything, but shows you only dps numbers. I can already imagine situation that an update is pushed (which ArenaNet has no control over either) that can share much more information from my account. Even if they notice, all they can do is to forbid usage of this tool. But people will already be using it, downloaded and running. Before BGDM was forbidden, it had many options that violate security and privace of players' accounts. It took some time before Anet officialy forbid this tool and even then there are still people using it. There are still people not knowing this tool is forbidden!

That being said, I believe this is reasonable to review DPS meter policy to respect player's right to chose who he wants to play with and on what terms. Current in-game tools do not provide the freedom of choice, all the solutions are based on "belief" that ArcDPS is safe program and that players read my LFG and respect my rules.

I think this solution brings all the players on fair ground:- make ArcDPS to work as personal DPS meter

• make a function of sharing DPS values in your group but it should only work if player chooses to share their numbers and it's possible only between people using this tool
• do not allow this or any tool to share any data associated to identified accounts without consent of the owner of the account, this is how your API tools work so why DPS meter should be on different rules?

I work in privacy for a living at a very high level (I helped draft the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in the EU and am actually in Brussels next week for more discussions at the European Parliament) and have been advocating stronger digital privacy for a very long time - so I found your post interesting. I think the arguments you raised are completely valid (and as a condi warrior in full ascended I am not concerned about my DPS being "poor") and that this type of activity is an infringement of a player's privacy.

I can also tell you as a fact that gamer privacy is a focus with legislators in Europe and that technically under Article 5(3) of 2002/58/EC this type of activity would already fall foul of European law as this makes it unlawful to gain access to any information on an end user's terminal equipment without consent - given the data for DPS meters is generated on the end user's terminal equipment it is pretty clear cut.

Also Article 10 of the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in Europe has a requirement for software to have privacy built in (by design) and for it to be the default setting - so arguably the developer of ArcDPS would be required to ensure that a: users of the software are not able to see other users' DPS without consent; and b: privacy settings are enabled by default.

As I mentioned there is already some focus from legislators on gamer privacy over concerns relating to in game advertising (which is rapidly becoming a thing), it would not be difficult to make them aware of other privacy related issues in games including logging of "whispers" for example - which again under the new ePrivacy Regulation will be illegal as private messaging is classified as an ancillary service under the European Electronic Communications Code and are protected under the upcoming Regulation. The same would also be true of Guild Chat - as any communication which is restricted to a specific closed group is protected under the new law - map chat would not be covered because it is considered a "public" message (not restricted to a closed group - it is restricted to just people on that map but you have no idea of who they are, so you are effectively making a public broadcast).

With VR, AI and Personal Assistants all entering the gaming space - not to mention other services such as head tracking, facial mapping/recognition, smart microphones etc. it is inevitable that there will be more interest in this space from Legislators and perhaps this is something I will raise in my discussions in Brussels next week.

Bottom line is - it doesn't make good sense to leave this until some form of enforcement action is taken - that will only lead to reputational damage and bring it even more into focus. The sensible thing to do is to self regulate now before the situation gets out of hand and lawmakers need to get involved.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

But I do care about my numbers. I don't want to use a meter to see them for a variety of reasons (mostly technical) that I already posted and you obviously ignored.

ArenaNet provided you the solution with DPS golem. I don't see why my privacy should be invaded by default, with no option to refuse sharing my numbers, because you refuse to use this tool. If you want the numbers, use the meter. I don;t want these numbers but people still can spy on me.

The DPS golem doesn't give the numbers during an actual run.I won't explain again the technical differences between BGDM and ArcDPS and why they work like they work because obviously you don't care about it, or possibly can't understand them.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

But I do care about my numbers. I don't want to use a meter to see them for a variety of reasons (mostly technical) that I already posted and you obviously ignored.

ArenaNet provided you the solution with DPS golem. I don't see why my privacy should be invaded by default, with no option to refuse sharing my numbers, because you refuse to use this tool. If you want the numbers, use the meter. I don;t want these numbers but people still can spy on me.

The DPS golem doesn't give the numbers during an actual run.I won't explain again the technical differences between BGDM and ArcDPS and why they work like they work because obviously you don't care about it, or possibly can't understand them.

This is on developer to abide to rules. I am for changing the rules here. You could raid with success without dps meters before, so you will clearly be able to do so if it's a little more restricted.

Also, I am being told that ArcDPS only "estimates" values during combat. So it's as accurate as DPS golem, and should be enough for you.

[Bladestrom.6425]

Ask yourself this, In real live if you were playing a co-operative RPG board game (for example) would you 'kick' a friend and tell him to get out of your house because he is badly performing? that would be rude and nasty right? , and yet thats what happens with the performance is king mentality which meters encourage. Thats the problem.

Raids is fair enough (although its still shit behaviour, but raids demand it if fights are tuned), but when someting is not tuned it just does not get the benefits that outweigh this cost.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Also, I am being told that ArcDPS only "estimates" values during combat. So it's as accurate as DPS golem, and should be enough for you.

I miss the part of using the dps golem during an actual run. How do I use this dps golem during the Vale Guardian fight? Is there a way that I'm missing here?