[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

Shiyo.3578 · July 4, 2020

You just explained why phantasms/clones are outdated and mesmer needs to be reworked entirely, imo.

bravan.3876 · July 4, 2020

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@bravan.3876 said:Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here.

God will you kitten off with this nonsense? Mesmer has subpar damage and condition damage. Mirage is about specializing into a more evasive condition skirmisher that gives it competitive condition damage in PvE and PvP. Your suggestions would not only completely gut condition mirage not just in PvP but also permanently remove mesmer as a viable DPS on the fighters where it's still strong to take a condition mirage.

No, it will not cut current Condimirage builds. As said current Condimirage builds do not even use any Mirage specific condiapplication. So stop crying about losing something that doesn't even get used atm because the one dodge change nerfed it into uselessness. I guess you are too afraid you can't be carried by passive condi playstyle anymore to see that current Condimirage doesn't even use ambushes or IH clones to apply condi dmg. Start using brain pls, ty. The above suggestions make IH usable AGAIN, also for condi builds (what it currently isn't with only one dodge) and it makes using condi ambushes (from Mesmer itself and clones) worth using AGAIN because of the utility condis they would get instead and will either boost condidmg or make hitting condi skills easier (immob for scepter ambushes for example). YOU GET A SECOND DODGE AND UTILITY CONDIS INSTEAD, THAT IS A VERY GOOD DEAL. At least when you are not afraid of adding some skill ceiling to IH Condimirage (what is probably your problem rofl).

Also those changes would solve the problem with op MC which does not exist on power, because of the better and more active ambush desing being more about effects and not mainly only pure dmg and for that they finally create the incentive to dodge pure offensive and with that create enough opportunity costs in dogemanagement to limit the op MC ability uses of dodging while stunned and dodging to cover casts, what also adds more counterplay (mind gaming and the better ability to bait dodges from the Mirage for opponents). Either that or stay with only one dodge and play without IH and without condi ambushes on condi because overnerfed.

Otherwise make some constructive suggestions yourself instead only complaining about other ppl posts, while you are too arrogant to waste your own time to make a constructive post yourself.

Your suggestions not only prevent cmirage from getting competitive damage levels out of weapon skills in PvP it would also literally destroy condi mirage in PvE as well because of your stupid"condi weapons shouldn't do condi damage" nonsense philosophy.

No, it doesn't prevent cMirage from getting competitive dmg and you also did not understand what i wrote. I only wrote about the mechanical changes, how much dmg on ambushes (condi AND power) will be balanced with 2 dodges post big balance patch (where all classes got nerfed) is something Anet needs then to fine adjust. I just say the condi ambushes need to be more similar to power weapons and get another MAIN purpose which is utility instead only raw dmg. So they will have main purpose utility condis/ effects just like power weapons and then Anet can fine adjust how much raw condi or power dmg they want to add to Mesmers and clone ambushes. Pure dmg ambushes just never give enough incentive/ need to dodge pure offensive but that is needed to limit the use of MC abilities with creating enough opportunity costs in dodge management. It can't be too hard to understand. A mechanical condi ambush rework is needed and no one at this point can come and call it a nerfs because i don't even give any dmg numbers for condi and power, i leave that to Anet to fine adjust the dmg from ambushes in a way that it will be balanced with 2 dodges then. You can forget that you just get 2 dodges back without any nerfs or reworks to the current state.

@XenesisII.1540 said:
@bravan.3876 said:Balance changes i would do
based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back
are:
The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless). Only if it turns out that it is NEEDED
Illusionary ambush, actually the whole retargeting mechanic (means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore, same for IA) should be deleted completely actually.
Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release. It can get a little cd decrease (5-10s less cd) and a little bit shorter casttime as compensation.
Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. (My suggestions for condi ambush rework see below). A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style.
Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again.
IH should be considered to be a minor trait, a Mirage without IH feels like a core on steroids, with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added but barely any different gameplay style. Without IH there is also barely any skill ceiling added to the spec, which would balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (see below).
Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed).
PU only gives one second additional stealth when traited, for that the boon duration gets increased. Random Aegis proc gets deleted, instead the Mesmer gets a thoughness bonus (or 30-40% dmg reduction buff) for 1-2 seconds after dropping out of stealth.
Sword ambush could lose the clone generation on the Mesmers own ambush. It is always a problem when Mesmers don't have to decide between clone generation and pure dmg traits like SC anymore and just can have both. Also the Inspiration signet invuln-ambush-clone spam build would get less obnoxious.

How about you stick to changing mirage skills/traits to get back the dodge instead of involving core stuff, so you don't screw over core builds even more, thanks.

The core changes are made because they make sense by themself (like Signet of Illusion f4 reset is in general too strong), that it also reduces the overperforming Mirage synergy from Desert Distortion is only a good side effect. Just like the PU suggestion is just a general idea because the mechanic is unhealthy by itself, it is a change should be done anyway also for Coremes and Chrono, no matter what happens to Mirage.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 bravan bravan bravan....Ill give you tip, take a step back, a breather in and out.then look at all the stuff you just wrote.You srsl, non ironically, want to introduce 9 skill deleting nerfs across mirage, and in turn give it its dodge. I want you to just mull this over for a sec.And no, mirage DOES use their ambushes for damage, be it sword for 1k dmg and extra clone or axe for ~2,5k dmg. they are not amazing but they are there for chip damage.Mesmers shatter hit plenty enough as it is, if anything mesmer needs more damage in itself, if you remove ambushes then mesmer instantly becomes unplayable in every aspect, any build can just kill the clones ( I actually fought holo that ignored me and killed my clones/phantasms, all of them die to 1 attack, you dont get to use ANY shatters. selft deception doesnt work if you dont get clones, you dont get clones when they kill your phantasms with basic attack and the ONLY way to get clone to shatter is sword 3, no other way works )

Who is talking about removing ambushes? It is about a mechanical change to more utility main purpose instead only raw dmg, That also prevents Coremes dmg to get nerfed just to balance out Mirage dmg by overnerfing core traits like Sharper Images or Shatter dmg traits. You can forget that you just get 2 dodges back and nothing else happens.Also i do not even give specific dmg numbers, i just ASSUME, that when giving 2 dodges back (and with that double the dmg Mirage can potentially do with ambushes) it MIGHT BE needed to reduce the dmg a little bit on power ambushes while condi ambushes need to be fine adjusted in how many dmg they can have after the mechanical rework anyway. None of the ambush points is a nerf, it is just a mechanical rework and a change in main purpose to add skill cieling to condi mirage and create the needed opportunity costs in dodgemanagement to limit op MC ability uses by giving the Mirage the incentive/ need to dodge pure offensive to hit well timed ambush effect rewards to have the same impact than a Coremesmer. Nothing of it is a nerf.

The only things are clear nerfs out of the 9 points are the Signet of Illusion change and the deletion of the retargeting mechanic (while there are for sure also some compensations possible, like deleting the casttime on Mirage Advance to make it less of a nerf and just a mechanical rework instead). The PU change is also more of a rework giving compensations for the lost stealthduration with longer boonduration and a dmg reduction buff after leaving stealth. And even for the Signet nerf i suggsts some compensations with lower cd and lower casttime. All in all there are barely any pure nerfs included in my post and some stuff will be needed to be reduced in compensation for getting 2 dodges back, everything else is delusional. And btw you also forget that IH will be minor trait what is a big buff in itself.

viquing.8254 · July 4, 2020

@"bravan.3876" :

Mirage was supposed to have less burst but more DPS than core, that was what dev wrote when they release it. (And that's basically what GS ambushes and most ambushes does for example.)Untie evade and ambush seems better for me than any hypothetic utility people will also whine against.Again a 1 sec telegraphed daze isn't "an active daze" you will just lucky rupt on some obvious speculations like low target or rez.Ho and MoP is already a utility skill : put vuln, does same damage as a minimum GS auto.

Crap with your signet of illusion nerf spam. It's barely used (currently the two most used build didn't use it.) and it's active. How in hell is it too strong. It should reset ALL SHATTER like it ever does. It's crazy how you suggest nerf after nerf.There is no signet mirage build.

Leonidrex.5649 · July 4, 2020

@bravan.3876 when builds underperform, like power mirage. you dont give them more tradeoffs, you straight up buff them.but we can go down the line of nerfing shit that you suggest, chaos is garbage, lets move along and make SoI shit too, what will be next? mb portal? that 1 guy that still uses it sure is OP.

bravan.3876 · July 4, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 when builds underperform, like power mirage. you dont give them more tradeoffs, you straight up buff them.but we can go down the line of nerfing kitten that you suggest, chaos is garbage, lets move along and make SoI kitten too, what will be next? mb portal? that 1 guy that still uses it sure is OP.

Giving 2 dodges back+giving IH as miror trait to all builds is a huge buff to Powermirage compared to current state. And all i said is that they could reduce the power dmg on the mesmers own gs ambush a little bit IF NEEDED or remove the clone generation on sword ambush IF NEEDED to be balanced in post big patch situation, where all classes got nerfed. Means if Powermes is not overperformign with 2 dodges and current ambush state there is no nerf to dmg or might/vuln stacks needed. But that is something Anet needs to fine adjust later, that is not my job. I just give balance suggestion about what COULD BE DONE IF NEEDED to compensate the higher power from Mirage when having 2 dodges again.As said you can forget that you only get a second dodge back and everything else stays the same. It will not happen.

Same for condi ambushes. You get IH as baseline, you get a second dodge and you get utility condition instead from the mechanical rework. After that Anet needs to fine adjust how much pure condi dmg can be added to those new utility ambushes from mesmer and clones to make it neither op nor up. I didn't give any dmg number, i just gave the idea for a mechanical rework. It is neither a buff nor a nerf, it is just a rework. A rework that is directed to replace the one dodge nerf to MC which Anet obviously feels that it is needed, and is even right with it. MC is not balance on a Mirage spec with ambushes that do not create the incentive/ need to dodge pure offensive to hit ambush effects that need to be timed well to outplay opponents or that need to be comboed with shatter and weapons skills for some burst or sustain dmg. Pure dmg ambushes will never do that, because with only dmg as main purpose it will always be enough to just dodge pure defensive and hope for some clone dmg to hit as a pure passive side effect from evading attacks. Because it is always a good time to do dmg, meanwhile an effect like a daze or immob you need to time for specific purposes depending on fight situation and reactive depending on what the enemy is doing. Only dmg doesn't rly need to be timed that hard and differently from pure defensive dodges. It is rly that simple.

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :
Mirage was supposed to have less burst but more DPS than core, that was what dev wrote when they release it. (And that's basically what GS ambushes and most ambushes does for example.)Untie evade and ambush seems better for me than any hypothetic utility people will also whine against.Again a 1 sec telegraphed daze isn't "an active daze" you will just lucky rupt on some obvious speculations like low target or rez.Ho and MoP is already a utility skill : put vuln, does same damage as a minimum GS auto.
kitten with your signet of illusion nerf spam. It's barely used (currently the two most used build didn't use it.) and it's active. How in hell is it too strong. It should reset ALL SHATTER like it ever does. It's crazy how you suggest nerf after nerf.There is no signet mirage build.

Ofc there is an Inspiration signet invuln build around, luckily it is kind of useless in conquest, doesn't mean it is balanced or not obnoxious in its mechanics. The signet use as the shatter uses are active true but still has lower skill ceiling because it rewards shatterspam and reduce the punishment of shatter cd wastes. But that is not even the porblem, the problem is, that resetting a strong complete invuln skill like f4 to nearly half its cd is simply too strong, meanwhile other classes like Ele got skill lock out added to their invuln skill (obsidian Flesh) and an even higher cd (in the planned balance patch review), while Ele caanot even reduce the cd of that invuln as much as Mesmer can with signet.

Anyway, those are my balance suggestion, some ppl might agree, some disagree, i don't care in the end. Do with them what you want, add them to the document or not, that is not up to me to decide. I don't agree to other suggestions from other ppl made in this thread either but because we were ask to not make a big dispute about balance again i was only adding my own suggestions without commentating others.

Leonidrex.5649 · July 4, 2020

@bravan.3876 you are missing the point, you cant make entire class rely on shatters alone, cuz you know. deny shatter and mesmer might as well go afk.this is what you are doing. Mesmer needs MORE ways to deal dmg other then shatters, you can overload F2 to give 16 stacks of confusion, but its not going to kill jack shit.Shatters are good enough as they are, we need more different ways to deal damage, be it through ambushes, phantasms or weapon skills.

bravan.3876 · July 4, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 you are missing the point, you cant make entire class rely on shatters alone, cuz you know. deny shatter and mesmer might as well go afk.this is what you are doing. Mesmer needs MORE ways to deal dmg other then shatters, you can overload F2 to give 16 stacks of confusion, but its not going to kill jack kitten.Shatters are good enough as they are, we need more different ways to deal damage, be it through ambushes, phantasms or weapon skills.

And? Power ambushes do dmg, sword ambushe barely. Also gs is more about selfbuff and target debuff to do more dmg than the raw dmg itself. And the good thing with the gs ambush design is, that those selfbuff and debuffs need to be timed by pure offensive dodges to prepare a shatter dmg combo. That is more than enough reward from ambushes to have higher sustained dmg aside from the utility effect and that is exactly the point. Atm Condimirage doesn't apply any condi dmg with ambushes neither their own nor from clones. The suggested rework makes taking IH and using ambushes on condiweapons like axe on condi builds worth again. Atm that is not the case. Means in particular for condi IH builds the suggestions are nearly pure win win for you guys.

But as said i get tired of this and i am not in the mood anymore to add more wall of text, i am not here to argue with any of you, i am here to add ideas as requested. I did that and i am out here. Do with it what you want @OP.

Moradorin.6217 · July 4, 2020

@Daishi.6027 said:I’mma copypasta myself
@Daishi.6027 said:Mostly focusing on PvP Mirage but I included a few core in here too. I primarily want Power Mirage viable, but without letting condi mirage get to strong:
-Add back the second evade.
-New Mirage Trade off: Mirage cannot create clones via utility skills. Any skill that normally does functions like it normally would just minus the clone eg. Decoy will stealth, Mirror images will drop target, etc. However, it cannot innately create a clone. (they can however create phantasms which function like normal, and "Self Deception" still works with deception skills.) In the case of signet of illusions the passive will never proc, but the active will function as it should.
-Infinite horizion effect is now apart of "Mirage Cloak". Clone Ambushes now
only occur when YOU ambush,
Infinite Horizion trait reworked to something else.(Maybe: untrained "ambushes" serve a utility function and are severely limited, then slotting the new trait restores to the power we have now.)
-
If needed even after forcing mesmer to actively commit to an ambush:
Rework Scepter/axe/staff ambushes in sPvP to disabling condis and not damaging ones.
-
Completely remove Mirage mirrors
, and rework mirror summons to proc some form of flat endurance regen.
-Dune Cloak no longer gains a junky copy. It flat out STEALS the boon and all it's stacks or duration.
OR
is now unblockable.
-Jaunt: No longer applies confusion. Recharge reduced to 20 seconds from 30 seconds. (PvP only)
-Illusionary Wave (GS5) has is changed to either a reliable stealth tool (that you need to land as an attack) on par with "Hunters Shot".
OR
is a Block+Counter attack akin to "Counterattack" to specify that is NOT a simple riposte.
-Phantasmal Berserker: casting skill no longer throws the sword, now that spinning animation knocks back enemies in a 180 radius around you.
-Phase Retreat (Staff2) is now a ground targeted skill. (Not only does this serve as a buff and make it more user friendly for beginners, and reduces that gap between mesmer and thief a little, but means it still works when your "about face" system is bugged)
-Critical Infusion in PvP is back to 5 seconds like in PvE. (Nomads endurance remains nerfed)
-Signet of illusions Only Restores: Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration, and Diversion in sPvP.
Anything I mentioned as a PvP exclusive or is obviously in relation to a PvP version can also translate over to WvW.

This sounds top to bottom horrible trash. It would make staff total garbage for core, chrono and mirage alike. This sounds ALLOT like what you want is to destroy condi builds and enhance power builds for mirage even though Mirage axe IS a Condi weapon and the spec has always leaned on condi. THe fact that power mirage worked as well as it did/does was Never actually intended. It was allowed to stay powerful as long as it did to give the "new" espec Mirage a play option for power cause at the time like EVERY Mesmer was running power.. Sorry I just really dont see most of this as even being constructive,

Clearly your intention is to put the final death nail in all Mesmer (even core) condi builds while enhancing power mirage (not core) which seems like the worst possible direction things could go. Mirage wouldn't even make sense anymore in that ITS A CONDI ESPEC ALWAYS WAS.

Note: if you doubt that Mirage was ALWAYS intended to be condi you need only look at the Mirage helm and Axe BOTH have condi stats, the closest thing to power on it is grieving. Nuff said, Mirage IS SUPPOSED TO BE CONDI CAN WE JUST GET PAST THAT FACT AND MOVE FORWARD!?!?!?

Not sure why you decided you hate mesmer so much you want to keep reducing it.

Please try looking at my suggestions and others. They would potencially balance Mirage, while not killing core and allowing both condi and power to actually function and to allow things to be balanced as needed. You suggestions would only make power the only option for playing mesmer across the board which is no solution to anything. The only good suggestion you had was give back the other dodge.

viquing.8254 · July 4, 2020

@bravan.3876 said:
@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :
Mirage was supposed to have less burst but more DPS than core, that was what dev wrote when they release it. (And that's basically what GS ambushes and most ambushes does for example.)Untie evade and ambush seems better for me than any hypothetic utility people will also whine against.Again a 1 sec telegraphed daze isn't "an active daze" you will just lucky rupt on some obvious speculations like low target or rez.Ho and MoP is already a utility skill : put vuln, does same damage as a minimum GS auto.
kitten with your signet of illusion nerf spam. It's barely used (currently the two most used build didn't use it.) and it's active. How in hell is it too strong. It should reset ALL SHATTER like it ever does. It's crazy how you suggest nerf after nerf.There is no signet mirage build.

Ofc there is an Inspiration signet invuln build around, luckily it is kind of useless in conquest, doesn't mean it is balanced or not obnoxious in its mechanics. The signet use as the shatter uses are active true but still has lower skill ceiling because it rewards shatterspam and reduce the punishment of shatter cd wastes. But that is not even the porblem, the problem is, that resetting a strong complete invuln skill like f4 to nearly half its cd is simply too strong, meanwhile other classes like Ele got skill lock out added to their invuln skill (obsidian Flesh) and an even higher cd (in the planned balance patch review), while Ele caanot even reduce the cd of that invuln as much as Mesmer can with signet.Come back with thoses crapping suggestion after they first removed all other class passive and low skill setup. No, it's not "too strong" to reset a F4, even builds who use it die. Ele in your example has multiple more way to heal him back and more (less CD) on evade skills. Can't wait for you to come here saying how skillfull is shoking aura.Anyway, those are my balance suggestion, some ppl might agree, some disagree, i don't care in the end. Do with them what you want, add them to the document or not, that is not up to me to decide. I don't agree to other suggestions from other ppl made in this thread either but because we were ask to not make a big dispute about balance again i was only adding my own suggestions without commentating others.Nop what I care is that a non-mesmer main, who is notorious to whine on lasts dead traits we have currently now come here with another "mind" suggestions.Mean even if I agree on many of your suggestions, you awlays have to put few perfect non-sense taking out overall class balance.I don't see myself coming in thief forum asking for a 50 cd on steal because of "skill" you see.

mortrialus.3062 · July 4, 2020

The ambush attacks are basically a bandaid that patches up mesmer's generally weak weapon kits. All of the Mirage ambushes give the weapons something they're lacking that roundsout the kits.

Greatsword's auto attack is a single target beam that can pierce and Split Surge gives high target AOE cleave by allowing you and your clones to tag tons of target at once.

Sword's Mirage thrust dazes and that's nice, but what's most important on the kit is the mobility, which helps the kit both as an exclusively melee kit as Illusionary Leap is pretty weak compared to the likes of Infiltaror's Strike, Shadow Strike, Heartseeker, Rush, Swoop, and it makes it more potent at out of combat roaming.

Imaginary Axes gives it a modest range projectile attack which helps it keep pressure on fast moving targets, especially with how unreliable Axes of Symmetry is considering the rest of the kit is entirely melee.

Scepter's Illusionary Barrage originally had a slightly Shorter Phase retreat effect which was unfortunately clunky and scrapped before PoF but could have been really nice for the skill had there been more of a way to control when you attack and when you port. It doesn't provide much more damage than standard autoattacking. But it does provide significantly faster projectiles for tagging faster moving targets, especially ones trying to flee as Scepter projectiles struggle to hit anything moving with how slow they are and how poor their tracking is.

Staff is almost entirely an unconventional defensive weapon kit. Even it's phantasm is pretty low impact on the damage front. The ambush patches up staff's main weakness in that it has no real proper skill shot to do damage by giving it a potent but fair damage attack with a nice wind up and tell and projectile that's very fair to dodge and counter so it's a bit more even as a weapon kit.

Complaining about the ambushes in their current form aside from how heavily over nerfed most of them are at this point, seems so incredibly misguided to me. All of the ambushes give the weapons something fun and bandaids them to be more well rounded kits akin to other profession's weapons. Like literally, what can you even add that's better for the weapons than what they already have on like a design on paper perspective? Some cripple or a blind or immobilize? Like really? It's like complaining about how Chronomancer's Time Catches Up gives shatters a reasonable chance to actual hit the target if you're casting from range so shotgunning clones right in an opponent's face isn't a necessity 100% of the time. They're fine.

The only one I can see reworking is the scepter one because it's the weakest as it's just autoattacking level damage that flies faster. But those faster projectiles have absolutely secured kills for me on fleeing target that scepter as a kit just literally cannot do otherwise if they aren't using skills while being hit by Confusing Images.

mortrialus.3062 · July 4, 2020

Also Infinite Horizons was never a particularly strong trait for PvP aside from staff where there was an oversight in ensuring the clones had weaker attacks as their condition are 100% the capabilities of the mesmer itself. Infinite Horizon became the defacto choice after a double whammy of Anet completely nuking condi shatters to not even being worth doing anymore and Elusive Mind was nerfed into becoming a massive massive liability. If we were still at pre-megabalance numbers and we got the Elusive Mind rework condi mirage would probably have swapped to running that. Other than staff none of the ambushes did more than boost individual ambush attack damage by 50%.

The main problems with Infinite Horizon when it was meta in terms of health of the game was that clones would ambush even without the mesmer's input, which was an actual toxic interaction of the trait that wouldn't be an issue if they just made it so that clones ambush when the mirage ambushes, not immediately when Mirage gets Mirage Cloak.

Also they should unnerf the staff ambush on the Mirage itself. It should have always followed the reduced duration/stacks of the other ambush skills and when they nerfed it they shouldn't have touched the actual mirage's damage.

Daishi.6027 · July 4, 2020

@Moradorin.6217 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:I’mma copypasta myself
@Daishi.6027 said:Mostly focusing on PvP Mirage but I included a few core in here too. I primarily want Power Mirage viable, but without letting condi mirage get to strong:
-Add back the second evade.
-New Mirage Trade off: Mirage cannot create clones via utility skills. Any skill that normally does functions like it normally would just minus the clone eg. Decoy will stealth, Mirror images will drop target, etc. However, it cannot innately create a clone. (they can however create phantasms which function like normal, and "Self Deception" still works with deception skills.) In the case of signet of illusions the passive will never proc, but the active will function as it should.
-Infinite horizion effect is now apart of "Mirage Cloak". Clone Ambushes now
only occur when YOU ambush,
Infinite Horizion trait reworked to something else.(Maybe: untrained "ambushes" serve a utility function and are severely limited, then slotting the new trait restores to the power we have now.)
-
If needed even after forcing mesmer to actively commit to an ambush:
Rework Scepter/axe/staff ambushes in sPvP to disabling condis and not damaging ones.
-
Completely remove Mirage mirrors
, and rework mirror summons to proc some form of flat endurance regen.
-Dune Cloak no longer gains a junky copy. It flat out STEALS the boon and all it's stacks or duration.
OR
is now unblockable.
-Jaunt: No longer applies confusion. Recharge reduced to 20 seconds from 30 seconds. (PvP only)
-Illusionary Wave (GS5) has is changed to either a reliable stealth tool (that you need to land as an attack) on par with "Hunters Shot".
OR
is a Block+Counter attack akin to "Counterattack" to specify that is NOT a simple riposte.
-Phantasmal Berserker: casting skill no longer throws the sword, now that spinning animation knocks back enemies in a 180 radius around you.
-Phase Retreat (Staff2) is now a ground targeted skill. (Not only does this serve as a buff and make it more user friendly for beginners, and reduces that gap between mesmer and thief a little, but means it still works when your "about face" system is bugged)
-Critical Infusion in PvP is back to 5 seconds like in PvE. (Nomads endurance remains nerfed)
-Signet of illusions Only Restores: Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration, and Diversion in sPvP.
Anything I mentioned as a PvP exclusive or is obviously in relation to a PvP version can also translate over to WvW.

This sounds top to bottom horrible trash. It would make staff total garbage for core, chrono and mirage alike.

This sounds ALLOT like what you want is to destroy condi builds and enhance power builds for mirage even though Mirage axe IS a Condi weapon and the spec has always leaned on condi. THe fact that power mirage worked as well as it did/does was Never actually intended. It was allowed to stay powerful as long as it did to give the "new" espec Mirage a play option for power cause at the time like EVERY Mesmer was running power.. Sorry I just really dont see most of this as even being constructive,

Clearly your intention is to put the final death nail in all Mesmer (even core) condi builds while enhancing power mirage (not core) which seems like the worst possible direction things could go. Mirage wouldn't even make sense anymore in that ITS A CONDI ESPEC ALWAYS WAS.

Note: if you doubt that Mirage was ALWAYS intended to be condi you need only look at the Mirage helm and Axe BOTH have condi stats, the closest thing to power on it is grieving. Nuff said, Mirage IS SUPPOSED TO BE CONDI CAN WE JUST GET PAST THAT FACT AND MOVE FORWARD!?!?!?

Not sure why you decided you hate mesmer so much you want to keep reducing it.

Please try looking at my suggestions and others. They would potencially balance Mirage, while not killing core and allowing both condi and power to actually function and to allow things to be balanced as needed. You suggestions would only make power the only option for playing mesmer across the board which is no solution to anything. The only good suggestion you had was give back the other dodge.

Are you going to actually support your claim? Particularly there to the bold?- your literal opening statment. The only thing I suggested for staff was a different kind of control for phase retreat, that is just as effective with how it functions now. The only difference is not having to use about face to go a specific direction. (Which you can't even do when it bugs)

Mesmers have leaned on condi pretty much ever since Chrono nerfs hit alacrity and quickness (except that "danger time" one shot build that didn't last long), with the only exception being core builds that stack stealth to be a worse thief. So the idea that Mirage has to be based on it's weapon is anecdotal. Thief was always power but now it has a thriving condi build, is that also unintended? You make it sound as if both can't exist.

Regarding Mirage, we're only in the current situation BECAUSE of condi. Granted it's A-net's fault in not properly nerfing the condi application, and only nerfing stack numbers, or survivability which is what got us here; but as it is now condi CAN thrive, if under-performing to the meta. Frankly though, all it really needs is it's 2nd evade back. (Which I find it hilarious since your suggestion is to buff the application... Which was the balance problem in the first place.)

-Removing clone generation on utilities only matters for signet of Illusions, and people only hard gravitated towards it to supplement after the survivability and portal nerfs set in. Frankly I'd prefer PvP Mirage as a WHOLE to thrive without needing to depend on it.

-For ambushes if you actually read my post, I claimed that all that was needed was to force the mesmer to commit to the ambush themselves, instead of just letting the clones do it with every evade. This is because part of the balance complaint was the mirage going full defensive, and the illusions doing a lot of the legwork. Forcing commitment fixes that balance issue. It's also why I specified "IF NEEDED" after such a change, then to change condi application from ambushes in PvP. Which is perfectly sound considering every other mesmer regardless of damage type pretty much needs to land shatters to do the majority of damage anyways, and is the reality of Condi Mirage right now. You could argue Mesmer as a whole needs something more, and that's fine I agree, but that has never been a standards upheld and isn't feasible without a complete rework of the core class; and is doubtful it's something in the scope of balance for PvP, and it disrupts PvE's current balance. Now, maybe I should have added that condi related Shatter traits would need to be restored or buffed, but I didn't think it was prudent to put three levels of "If this still doesn't work, then do X", when realistically it should be fine by that point. Right now despite Condi Mirage's fall it's not like it can't do damage, and currently it can only ambush once before mirrors, and what I'm asking for is more on demand evasion giving plenty to thrive, and better access to ambushes; though they require commitment. Noncommittal condi application is a small trade for being able to react to every damage option akin to a thief or a ranger and increases Mesmer's matchup quality on a whole for BOTH power AND condi without going overboard.

What I'd really like an answer for how this hurts Core or Chorno since they go pretty much untouched or buffed by any of these changes except the nerf to signet of illusions, which core doesn't use- and only mattered for (old) CONDI Chrono which thrived till the end of HoT... But Condi is only supposed to be the Mirage spec right? Hmmmm....

Jojo.6590 · July 4, 2020

I'll bite, though I haven't been playing much anymore. Lets see if they really listen to the Mesmer mains and not Range...I mean others crying to nerf Mesmer.

Weapons:Sword main hand could use a rework/ buffs at least its auto-attack chain.Staff seems like a mess to me. Is it support? Is it damage? Or is it a squirrel?!Clones/Phantasms:As others are stating clones and phantasms are in a rough spot. I see them as a double edge sword, mostly not in favor of the Mesmer when fighting someone with half a brain and/ or decent aoe/ cleave. I'd love to see this changed to where we only have 1 clone that works similar to a Ranger's pet (and yes that does mean a much higher health pool/defense so that they don't die to a sneeze). With this Phantasms can then be removed and replaced with a "clone action". It would basically be the exact same thing as the phantasms expect it just triggers your clone to cast the ability. We could then take it a step further to have the clone even turn transparent ( like what the phantasms currently look like ) which could be a fun trade-off. Casting a high damage clone action will reveal which one is the clone and which one is the Mesmer for a short period of time. This would also alleviate a lot of the "visual clutter" many people continue to complain about. Of course, doing this also means we'd need to rework shatters too. So this change is far from minor, it would be correct to say its closer to a class redesign. A few ideas for the shatters could be to swap places with your clone or even have your clone hit your target and thus causing you to swap places with them. I can go on with some crazy ideas for this but I rather not get excited over nothing.

Chrono:I honestly can't say much on this since we're finally getting IP back! I'll have to play with it to see how it goes. I can defiantly see Chrono needing some damage buffs though and I'd like to see it get distortion back too.

Mirage:Where to start. First off removing the doge was uncalled for, as wells as the nerfs to vigor/endurance. I say this because I'm tired of Anets balancing policy that they label something "degenerate" ( they really should not use this term, as its extremely unprofessional. A different issue for another thread I guess.) yet meanwhile several other classes are able to do the exact same thing if not something similar and nothing is done about it! If you're nerfing X class for being able to do ABC and not also nerfing the other classes for being able to also do ABC or something very similar, you should not be nerfing X class at all then!As stated IH-Infinite Horizon needs to be made baseline. As it stands currently nerfing ambushes is rough when you have options not to run IH, though most if not everyone runs it anyways. Balancing ambushes can be done much more aggressively if HI is made baseline as the "fear" of killing off builds that don't use it will no longer be relevant. On top of this, the other two grandmaster traits could use a rework or just replaced by something better.Now to fix the issue of having 1 dodge. Simply put REMOVE THE DISTORTION SHATTER! Mirage does not need this when its dodge is a type of distortion. This should then punish the Mirage in a more fair way for not managing their dodges correctly as they will not have distortion to cover them/ give them "endless distortion".

Conditions: Side note:I'm just going to put this here. One of the big issues I've noticed with conditions when comparing it to power damage is the fact that power builds require way more stat manipulation/ investment to gain high peaks of damage then that of condition builds, even before the big power nerf patch. Simply put, condition builds require 1, some times two primary stats for their damage (condition damage and expertise) while power builds require 3 (precision, ferocity, and power). This allows condition builds a bit more flexibility in picking up defensive stats. One way to fix this is to allow conditions to crit, thus requiring precision. The amount of damage a condition does can be gauged by a percentage of the player's condition damage. For example, for every 200 condition damage, your conditions gain a 5% damage boost/ multiplier when they crit. Basically your condition damage now also functions like ferocity. Expertise could also be used as the damage multiplier too and maybe more easy to implement given its already measured as a percentage. This would then also allow for the balance team to nerf the normal/ flat tick damage for each condition. It would also help if conditions did the same flat damage and scaled the same versus what we currently have. Depending on the skill that applies the condition, its damage and scaling are somewhat different. If each class had its own specific flat rate and scaling pre each condition it uses it could make balancing conditions much more easy. Though I'm not too sure how easily this can be done as the coding for this may not even be possible.

Edit: grammar.

Simonoly.4352 · July 4, 2020

For Mirage, I'd really just reinstate the second dodge bar and just remove one clone slot. I'd like Mesmer to be for optimal damage, Chrono for group support and Mirage for personal sustain. If another elite spec comes in, make it THE damage choice (or some other particular niche) and promote base Mesmer as an unrestricted jack of all trades, master of none choice.

mortrialus.3062 · July 5, 2020

One of the main problems with condition mesmer in general right now is that it was more or less the only class before the megabalance patch that was using the Expertise amulets and runes, and with those removed it took a massive loss in it's damage compared to most other condition builds. Condition mesmer revolves around Cry of Frustration to do lethal damage and Cry of Frustration and it's traits have been gutted to the point where the skill is super limp even with full trait and stat investment into it. It's a 25 second primary damage cooldown requiring three clones and the mesmer in melee range that does 3 seconds of confusion. Nothing is taking more than 3k damage from a 25 second primary damage cooldown. And Cry of Frustration isn't like Mind Wrack in that you can spawn one clone in melee range and be in melee range and still get 70% of the skill's maximum value. It's 100% additive in how it scales with clones.

The expertise amulets should get added back to the game or the duration of skills that are supposed to be high value should go up. Mesmer was the only condition class that actually had to suffer the loss of losing 50% condition duration because of the megabalance. On it's face a 25 second cooldown for 3 seconds of confusion should show how hilariously undertuned mesmer's condition damage is post megabalance.

Moradorin.6217 · July 5, 2020

oops its late I redid the post.

Moradorin.6217 · July 5, 2020

@Daishi.6027 said:
@Moradorin.6217 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:I’mma copypasta myself
@Daishi.6027 said:Mostly focusing on PvP Mirage but I included a few core in here too. I primarily want Power Mirage viable, but without letting condi mirage get to strong:
-Add back the second evade.
-New Mirage Trade off: Mirage cannot create clones via utility skills. Any skill that normally does functions like it normally would just minus the clone eg. Decoy will stealth, Mirror images will drop target, etc. However, it cannot innately create a clone. (they can however create phantasms which function like normal, and "Self Deception" still works with deception skills.) In the case of signet of illusions the passive will never proc, but the active will function as it should.
-Infinite horizion effect is now apart of "Mirage Cloak". Clone Ambushes now
only occur when YOU ambush,
Infinite Horizion trait reworked to something else.(Maybe: untrained "ambushes" serve a utility function and are severely limited, then slotting the new trait restores to the power we have now.)
-
If needed even after forcing mesmer to actively commit to an ambush:
Rework Scepter/axe/staff ambushes in sPvP to disabling condis and not damaging ones.
-
Completely remove Mirage mirrors
, and rework mirror summons to proc some form of flat endurance regen.
-Dune Cloak no longer gains a junky copy. It flat out STEALS the boon and all it's stacks or duration.
OR
is now unblockable.
-Jaunt: No longer applies confusion. Recharge reduced to 20 seconds from 30 seconds. (PvP only)
-Illusionary Wave (GS5) has is changed to either a reliable stealth tool (that you need to land as an attack) on par with "Hunters Shot".
OR
is a Block+Counter attack akin to "Counterattack" to specify that is NOT a simple riposte.
-Phantasmal Berserker: casting skill no longer throws the sword, now that spinning animation knocks back enemies in a 180 radius around you.
-Phase Retreat (Staff2) is now a ground targeted skill. (Not only does this serve as a buff and make it more user friendly for beginners, and reduces that gap between mesmer and thief a little, but means it still works when your "about face" system is bugged)
-Critical Infusion in PvP is back to 5 seconds like in PvE. (Nomads endurance remains nerfed)
-Signet of illusions Only Restores: Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration, and Diversion in sPvP.
Anything I mentioned as a PvP exclusive or is obviously in relation to a PvP version can also translate over to WvW.