"Nerf Holosmith!"

[N A T E.3108]

The voices have been heard I'm sure: some form of "NERF HOLOSMITH!!!" appears in nearly every spvp discussion on the forums and on Reddit. When considering the current top tier, I personally don't see the spec over-performing that strongly, but I imagine that nerfs are coming along regardless. The high focus points are obviously it's current sustain and damage combination- damage complaints likely hovering around Explosive Entrance and Grenade Kit, and sustain complaints on Flashbang and other core sustain features from the core lines/utilities. With that in mind...

MY REQUEST: Please consider how your nerfs will will affect Core Engineer and Scrapper!

POINTS OF CONSIDERATION

1. Core and Scrapper are both under-performing in the spvp scene, even with these traits and skills that are seen as "op" for Holo. Please don't just continue to nerf Engineer as a whole in order to balance Holosmith.
2. The changes required to balance Holo can be addressed at the Holosmith level.

Proposed Changes:

Again, I don't find Holosmith to be all that oppressive, so these solutions are base-level ideas and can of course be adjusted and developed further.

4 Easy Damage Nerfs

1. Due to the power of Photon Forge and a Holosmith's reliance on it, it's only logical to assume that the Engineers that equip it would have less room for more conventional engineer equipment. Therefore, I propose a small trade-off for the Holosmith spec: "The explosives you carry are 15% smaller". This would essentially translate to a 15% reduction in overall effectiveness for all explosion skills. This includes effect and condition durations. Corona Burst may have to be exempt from these effects.
2. Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit: this is a great trait to work off of to tone down overall Holo damage. It could have some might stacks shaved from it (1 stack/s vs 2/s) or the damage bonuses on sword skills could be reduced (15% vs 20%).
3. Laser's Edge: Reduce maximum damage bonus to 10%
4. Corona Burst: maybe some of the vulnerability stacks could be shaved.

3 Easy Sustain Nerfs

1. Flashbang: I don't find this trait to be that oppressive. if you were to institute the 15% effectiveness nerf from damage nerf #1, I think that would be more than enough to tone down the oppressive nature of this skill. If you must, reduce some of Holosmith's easy access to vigor.
2. Heat Therapy, while it has been toned down recently, is still a pretty strong sustain benefit. If you must nerf Holosmith's sustain, I would focus on a rework here before nerfing any more core traits/skills. Maybe it could offer 2-3 points of healing power (maybe more) for each unit of heat accumulated. This would create an effect that has to be actively utilized for benefit.
3. You can always tie a slight armor reduction to Photon Forge in some way. "You take 10% more damage while under the effects of Photon Forge". This would give it a similar play-style to GW1 Frenzy.

I am not proposing that all of these nerfs happen (though I think, even if they did, Holo could still compete) but I am proposing that you nerf the correct areas of the class before affecting engineer as a whole. Arguments can be made for whether or not grenade kit is oppressive across the board, but I think the point still stands strong that apart from Holo, core and scrapper are in pretty rough spots for spvp, even with grenades and traits like Explosive Entrance. For those who complain about Flamethrower... who knows- maybe firearms could be reworked to include a version of Juggernaut that has slightly less stab, but that is something for another discussion.

Hope these ideas are useful.

ALIEN

[Vancho.8750]

@"N A T E.3108" said:The voices have been heard I'm sure: some form of "NERF HOLOSMITH!!!" appears in nearly every spvp discussion on the forums and on Reddit. When considering the current top tier, I personally don't see the spec over-performing that strongly, but I imagine that nerfs are coming along regardless. The high focus points are obviously it's current sustain and damage combination- damage complaints likely hovering around Explosive Entrance and Grenade Kit, and sustain complaints on Flashbang and other core sustain features from the core lines/utilities. With that in mind...

MY REQUEST: Please consider how your nerfs will will affect Core Engineer and Scrapper!

POINTS OF CONSIDERATION

1. Core and Scrapper are both under-performing in the spvp scene, even with these traits and skills that are seen as "op" for Holo. Please don't just continue to nerf Engineer as a whole in order to balance Holosmith.
2. The changes required to balance Holo can be addressed at the Holosmith level.

Proposed Changes:

Again, I don't find Holosmith to be all that oppressive, so these solutions are base-level ideas and can of course be adjusted and developed further.

4 Easy Damage Nerfs

1. Due to the power of Photon Forge and a Holosmith's reliance on it, it's only logical to assume that the Engineers that equip it would have less room for more conventional engineer equipment. Therefore, I propose a small trade-off for the Holosmith spec: "The explosives you carry are 15% smaller". This would essentially translate to a 15% reduction in overall effectiveness for all explosion skills. This includes effect and condition durations. Corona Burst may have to be exempt from these effects.
2. Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit: this is a great trait to work off of to tone down overall Holo damage. It could have some might stacks shaved from it (1 stack/s vs 2/s) or the damage bonuses on sword skills could be reduced (15% vs 20%).
3. Laser's Edge: Reduce maximum damage bonus to 10%
4. Corona Burst: maybe some of the vulnerability stacks could be shaved.

3 Easy Sustain Nerfs

1. Flashbang: I don't find this trait to be that oppressive. if you were to institute the 15% effectiveness nerf from damage nerf #1, I think that would be more than enough to tone down the oppressive nature of this skill. If you must, reduce some of Holosmith's easy access to vigor.
2. Heat Therapy, while it has been toned down recently, is still a pretty strong sustain benefit. If you must nerf Holosmith's sustain, I would focus on a rework here before nerfing any more core traits/skills. Maybe it could offer 2-3 points of healing power (maybe more) for each unit of heat accumulated. This would create an effect that has to be actively utilized for benefit.
3. You can always tie a slight armor reduction to Photon Forge in some way. "You take 10% more damage while under the effects of Photon Forge". This would give it a similar play-style to GW1 Frenzy.

I am not proposing that all of these nerfs happen (though I think, even if they did, Holo could still compete) but I am proposing that you nerf the correct areas of the class before affecting engineer as a whole. Arguments can be made for whether or not grenade kit is oppressive across the board, but I think the point still stands strong that apart from Holo, core and scrapper are in pretty rough spots for spvp, even with traits like Explosive Entrance. For those who complain about Flamethrower... who knows- maybe firearms could be reworked to include a version of Juggernaut that has slightly less stab, but that is something for another discussion.

Hope these ideas are useful.

ALIENMake the Heat mechanic actual mechanic and not just cd, think reverse reaper where you have to work to lose the heat, bump the cds to on the forge to the normalized cds that every class has or drop the impact of them to mach how spammy they are, with that the self explosion thing can be removed. Decide what the fuck holo is it a bruiser speck(that should be out since it cannibalizes scrapper), teamfighter, roamer it ain't support that is for sure. Ah also normalize the freaking passives that contradict the previous design decisions or undo it and return the passives to all other classes.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

[Shiyo.3578]

Anet needs to decide what they want holosmith to be. It's supposed to be a glass cannon spec but it has insane amounts of sustain.

[Stark.1350]

Thank you for this post. Scrapper has always been my main. Right now it just makes me sad.

[Tanbin.2436]

grenade dmg needs to be toned... try running holo without nade kit in a top tier meta scenario or even as a carry like it currently is and you won't get far. it's very simple really, nade kit carries the current holo build. nerfing holo forge skills will not solve the issue.

holo is actually really good in a lot of areas, this is why when something on holo gets nerfed it's easily swappable. the thing that makes holo insanely strong in the current meta build is the nade kit, not the holo forge skills - to be honest i think holo forge skills are actually balanced correctly.

also, holo forge is fine and isnt even that good of dps. it's more utility and mobility than anything and this is also with zerk amulet. its why nade kit makes it busted. ranged cleave dps (to allow kiting from a distance as well) that is more offensive than most close range builds and this is without big boomer lol... with forge you have to be in the fight and as a zerker amulet to even deal dmg you'll most likely be easily targeted since you're so close and you will end up pretty much dead. this is why forge itself isn't good , it's a utility option at this point.

[Shao.7236]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

Was suggested before, people called it a stupid idea.

Even Revenant flow is limited to 10 seconds, it only makes sense to actually change the input rather than limit if and I say "if" by miracle someone overheats, those changes to the tool belt have done nothing to Holosmith in the end because nobody ever overheats.

Let the cooldown of Photon Forge be as comparable as to everything all the professions in the game basically rely to which is a 10 seconds cooldown.

Warrior is the only exception being that it has much less to fallback on but really short CD's, even as a Spellbreaker right now, remember even Full counter has a minimum of 10 seconds.

People actually wish for Revenant to have no Energy Costs on weapons, but that's a stupid idea considering everyone scream OP and the energy pool is actually clean cut on the management, interrupting even the best of flows can easily destroy one, it's a good spot and even if I don't like what they did with some of the trait, the whole class is relevant right now.

Besides, there's actually no need to touch Engineer at all right now maybe besides removing the critical hit from Explosive entrance, Scrappers being fought as well as Core actually need a good player to be played, I can attest to it and they have less than a Holo can constantly pull off, a 10 seconds cooldown won't hurt it at all.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

Was suggested before, people called it a stupid idea.

Even Revenant flow is limited to 10 seconds, it only makes sense to actually change the input rather than limit if and I say "if" by miracle someone overheats, those changes to the tool belt have done nothing to Holosmith in the end because nobody ever overheats.

Let the cooldown of Photon Forge be as comparable as to everything all the professions in the game basically rely to which is a 10 seconds cooldown.

Warrior is the only exception being that it has much less to fallback on but really short CD's, even as a Spellbreaker right now, remember even Full counter has a minimum of 10 seconds.

People actually wish for Revenant to have no Energy Costs on weapons, but that's a stupid idea considering everyone scream OP and the energy pool is actually clean cut on the management, interrupting even the best of flows can easily destroy one, it's a good spot and even if I don't like what they did with some of the trait, the whole class is relevant right now.

Besides, there's actually no need to touch Engineer at all right now maybe besides removing the critical hit from Explosive entrance, Scrappers being fought as well as Core actually need a good player to be played, I can attest to it and they have less than a Holo can constantly pull off, a 10 seconds cooldown won't hurt it at all.

I just feel like a 9s CD, same as everything else, would better distinguish the difference between good Holo players and sloppy ones. The 5s CD is a lot of padding for going in & out of forge at bad or unnecessary times.

[MrForz.1953]

@"iKagura.1903" said:grenade dmg needs to be toned... try running holo without nade kit in a top tier meta scenario or even as a carry like it currently is and you won't get far. it's very simple really, nade kit carries the current holo build. nerfing holo forge skills will not solve the issue.

The skills will not, but the traits will. Consider not putting another one in the back of core engineers and maybe scrappers and have a look at all the damage boosting traits Holosmith has that have the grenade barrage pulling out these numbers. The grenade kit may carry holosmith, but holosmith also carries the grenade kit.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

Was suggested before, people called it a stupid idea.

Even Revenant flow is limited to 10 seconds, it only makes sense to actually change the input rather than limit if and I say "if" by miracle someone overheats, those changes to the tool belt have done nothing to Holosmith in the end because nobody ever overheats.

Let the cooldown of Photon Forge be as comparable as to everything all the professions in the game basically rely to which is a 10 seconds cooldown.

Warrior is the only exception being that it has much less to fallback on but really short CD's, even as a Spellbreaker right now, remember even Full counter has a minimum of 10 seconds.

People actually wish for Revenant to have no Energy Costs on weapons, but that's a stupid idea considering everyone scream OP and the energy pool is actually clean cut on the management, interrupting even the best of flows can easily destroy one, it's a good spot and even if I don't like what they did with some of the trait, the whole class is relevant right now.

Besides, there's actually no need to touch Engineer at all right now maybe besides removing the critical hit from Explosive entrance, Scrappers being fought as well as Core actually need a good player to be played, I can attest to it and they have less than a Holo can constantly pull off, a 10 seconds cooldown won't hurt it at all.

I just feel like a 9s CD, same as everything else, would better distinguish the difference between good Holo players and sloppy ones. The 5s CD is a lot of padding for going in & out of forge at bad or unnecessary times.

Not really. It just means that forge gets stacked up before engaging, and then avoided as much as possible. You want to spend as little time in phorge as possible, since its pretty much just mobility and corona burst thats useful.

[zoopop.5630]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

Was suggested before, people called it a stupid idea.

Even Revenant flow is limited to 10 seconds, it only makes sense to actually change the input rather than limit if and I say "if" by miracle someone overheats, those changes to the tool belt have done nothing to Holosmith in the end because nobody ever overheats.

Let the cooldown of Photon Forge be as comparable as to everything all the professions in the game basically rely to which is a 10 seconds cooldown.

Warrior is the only exception being that it has much less to fallback on but really short CD's, even as a Spellbreaker right now, remember even Full counter has a minimum of 10 seconds.

People actually wish for Revenant to have no Energy Costs on weapons, but that's a stupid idea considering everyone scream OP and the energy pool is actually clean cut on the management, interrupting even the best of flows can easily destroy one, it's a good spot and even if I don't like what they did with some of the trait, the whole class is relevant right now.

Besides, there's actually no need to touch Engineer at all right now maybe besides removing the critical hit from Explosive entrance, Scrappers being fought as well as Core actually need a good player to be played, I can attest to it and they have less than a Holo can constantly pull off, a 10 seconds cooldown won't hurt it at all.

I just feel like a 9s CD, same as everything else, would better distinguish the difference between good Holo players and sloppy ones. The 5s CD is a lot of padding for going in & out of forge at bad or unnecessary times.

Not really. It just means that forge gets stacked up before engaging, and then avoided as much as possible. You want to spend as little time in phorge as possible, since its pretty much just mobility and corona burst thats useful.

because the Autos in phorge are completely useless and deal no dmg at all right? Stating that phorge 2/3 are it's only use is pretty dumb.

[N A T E.3108]

For those of you who are calling for direct nerfs to Explosive Entrance (EE) and Grenade Kit, this was the point of the entire post. Core and Scrapper are not really even "viable" options when you consider the current meta, even though they both have access to Grenade Kit and EE. Therefore, when you have a balancing decision to make that will effect an entire class, but you only consider the effects this change will have exclusively for one elite spec (while disregarding the balancing effects it has on the rest of the class), then you have effectively beat the dead horse. This is a balancing mistake.

This is why I proposed the 15% explosion effectiveness reduction trade-off for Holosmith. This would effectively cut 15% of the damage from Grenade Kit and EE for Holosmith without also continuing to nerf core and Scrapper into oblivion.

Arguments can be made for nerfs to skills that are oppressive across the board (i.e. what happened to Rampage) but I don't think EE or Grenade Kit fall into that category quite yet. To prove that they do, you need to show me prolific and oppressive Core Engis and Scrappers that are dominating spvp. This is, of course, something you wont find. Therefore, the nerfs need to occur to Holosmith exclusively.

DON'T BEAT THE DEAD HORSE

In this discussion I have offered multiple ways to do that with relatively small changes to Holo. I would think anyone could see the value in Anet adopting a balancing philosophy like this where applicable. Of course you can offer other solutions, like added cd times and whatnot, but personally, I feel that the changes I have presented in the op address the issue more effectively. I mean shoot- if they were to institute a 15% explosive reduction, shave 5% off of lasers edge, cut the might generation by 50% on Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit, and shave some vulnerability from Corona Burst... do you realize how much less damage Holo would do? That might even be too much damage reduction. I personally think just the 15% would do a lot.

With my luck, instead of taking a balancing approach like I have presented here, they will just continue to nerf engineer/scrap to the ground in order to balance Holosmith. /)_-

ALIEN

[UNOwen.7132]

@zoopop.5630 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

Was suggested before, people called it a stupid idea.

Even Revenant flow is limited to 10 seconds, it only makes sense to actually change the input rather than limit if and I say "if" by miracle someone overheats, those changes to the tool belt have done nothing to Holosmith in the end because nobody ever overheats.

Let the cooldown of Photon Forge be as comparable as to everything all the professions in the game basically rely to which is a 10 seconds cooldown.

Warrior is the only exception being that it has much less to fallback on but really short CD's, even as a Spellbreaker right now, remember even Full counter has a minimum of 10 seconds.

People actually wish for Revenant to have no Energy Costs on weapons, but that's a stupid idea considering everyone scream OP and the energy pool is actually clean cut on the management, interrupting even the best of flows can easily destroy one, it's a good spot and even if I don't like what they did with some of the trait, the whole class is relevant right now.

Besides, there's actually no need to touch Engineer at all right now maybe besides removing the critical hit from Explosive entrance, Scrappers being fought as well as Core actually need a good player to be played, I can attest to it and they have less than a Holo can constantly pull off, a 10 seconds cooldown won't hurt it at all.

I just feel like a 9s CD, same as everything else, would better distinguish the difference between good Holo players and sloppy ones. The 5s CD is a lot of padding for going in & out of forge at bad or unnecessary times.

Not really. It just means that forge gets stacked up before engaging, and then avoided as much as possible. You want to spend as little time in phorge as possible, since its pretty much just mobility and corona burst thats useful.

because the Autos in phorge are completely useless and deal no dmg at all right? Stating that phorge 2/3 are it's only use is pretty dumb.

Theyre not "useless" per se, but they hit less hard than sword autos. And other than Corona burst, there isnt anything you can use in photon forge, so you would just have worse autos than sword without the ability to use any other skills or swap to anything else. 2 and 3 are indeed the only reason to use forge, and most of the time you want to drop the forge ASAP.

[wasss.1208]

@"iKagura.1903" said:grenade dmg needs to be toned... try running holo without nade kit in a top tier meta scenario or even as a carry like it currently is and you won't get far. it's very simple really, nade kit carries the current holo build. nerfing holo forge skills will not solve the issue.

Or try to play core engi with 'nades, and you realize that they aren't that powerful if you don't have perma ~20 might. On the other hand, 'nade kit is the only usable damage orinted kit for power core. Add to that that engineer weapons are horrible, and you are left nothing to play with as power core. And this is exactly what the original post is about, to nerf holosmith, which is overperforming, in a way that doesn't ruin underperforming specs.

[Lacko.6572]

nerf holo damage but, give back stability to corona burst !! <8>

[Shao.7236]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

Was suggested before, people called it a stupid idea.

Even Revenant flow is limited to 10 seconds, it only makes sense to actually change the input rather than limit if and I say "if" by miracle someone overheats, those changes to the tool belt have done nothing to Holosmith in the end because nobody ever overheats.

Let the cooldown of Photon Forge be as comparable as to everything all the professions in the game basically rely to which is a 10 seconds cooldown.

Warrior is the only exception being that it has much less to fallback on but really short CD's, even as a Spellbreaker right now, remember even Full counter has a minimum of 10 seconds.

People actually wish for Revenant to have no Energy Costs on weapons, but that's a stupid idea considering everyone scream OP and the energy pool is actually clean cut on the management, interrupting even the best of flows can easily destroy one, it's a good spot and even if I don't like what they did with some of the trait, the whole class is relevant right now.

Besides, there's actually no need to touch Engineer at all right now maybe besides removing the critical hit from Explosive entrance, Scrappers being fought as well as Core actually need a good player to be played, I can attest to it and they have less than a Holo can constantly pull off, a 10 seconds cooldown won't hurt it at all.

I just feel like a 9s CD, same as everything else, would better distinguish the difference between good Holo players and sloppy ones. The 5s CD is a lot of padding for going in & out of forge at bad or unnecessary times.

Not really. It just means that forge gets stacked up before engaging, and then avoided as much as possible. You want to spend as little time in phorge as possible, since its pretty much just mobility and corona burst thats useful.

because the Autos in phorge are completely useless and deal no dmg at all right? Stating that phorge 2/3 are it's only use is pretty dumb.

Theyre not "useless" per se, but they hit less hard than sword autos. And other than Corona burst, there isnt anything you can use in photon forge, so you would just have worse autos than sword without the ability to use any other skills or swap to anything else. 2 and 3 are indeed the only reason to use forge, and most of the time you want to drop the forge ASAP.

You should look at the whole chain, to say sword auto chain is better kinda laughable. People want to drop forge ASAP because they don't want to manage anything else, it's easy to ditch the thing and come back to it instead of making the best use out of it without the risks that it's supposed to imply on the player because the cooldowns are so low, there needs to be a limitation somewhere.

It goes to show that Holo Leap and Corona Burst cooldowns are really short and need to be increased by 2 seconds each rather than having a kit cooldown change because the ease of access in either way to the skills is too user friendly. The first solution takes care better of the abuse compared the other, but if the kit had to be increased that would affect the thing as a whole rather than the build up of energy AND abuse of skills which is for the whole class synergy too, asking players to always reach near 100% for their bonuses. As it is right now people go forge, press buttons, quit, use everything else. Have to sustain? CC, Holo Leap, Holo Leap, Holo Leap, Holo Leap.

• New Photon Forge with Kit Increase, build up as much heat as you can then benefit from it or sustain with it for 10 seconds, it adds value to the kit rather than make it something to ditch every so often.Slows down the game play overall for the class, cooldowns unaffected so people can still use the same strategy, only much less often. Which is hitting on the part that makes Holosmith so strong.

• New Holo Leap and Corona Burst cooldowns, you have to play more with the Forge and actually commit to more risks because otherwise the Forge is wasted since you can't use Holo Leap or Corona Burst twice in such a short amount of time. You sure as hell know, people get to use these 2 powerful skills at least twice in 6 seconds which is very beefy.Keep a similar pace while still adding more value to the skills, rather than press 3 222 3 222. High Risk, High Reward added to skills, as it should be, comparably to the kit increase.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shao.7236 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

Was suggested before, people called it a stupid idea.

Even Revenant flow is limited to 10 seconds, it only makes sense to actually change the input rather than limit if and I say "if" by miracle someone overheats, those changes to the tool belt have done nothing to Holosmith in the end because nobody ever overheats.

Let the cooldown of Photon Forge be as comparable as to everything all the professions in the game basically rely to which is a 10 seconds cooldown.

Warrior is the only exception being that it has much less to fallback on but really short CD's, even as a Spellbreaker right now, remember even Full counter has a minimum of 10 seconds.

People actually wish for Revenant to have no Energy Costs on weapons, but that's a stupid idea considering everyone scream OP and the energy pool is actually clean cut on the management, interrupting even the best of flows can easily destroy one, it's a good spot and even if I don't like what they did with some of the trait, the whole class is relevant right now.

Besides, there's actually no need to touch Engineer at all right now maybe besides removing the critical hit from Explosive entrance, Scrappers being fought as well as Core actually need a good player to be played, I can attest to it and they have less than a Holo can constantly pull off, a 10 seconds cooldown won't hurt it at all.

I just feel like a 9s CD, same as everything else, would better distinguish the difference between good Holo players and sloppy ones. The 5s CD is a lot of padding for going in & out of forge at bad or unnecessary times.

Not really. It just means that forge gets stacked up before engaging, and then avoided as much as possible. You want to spend as little time in phorge as possible, since its pretty much just mobility and corona burst thats useful.

because the Autos in phorge are completely useless and deal no dmg at all right? Stating that phorge 2/3 are it's only use is pretty dumb.

Theyre not "useless" per se, but they hit less hard than sword autos. And other than Corona burst, there isnt anything you can use in photon forge, so you would just have worse autos than sword without the ability to use any other skills or swap to anything else. 2 and 3 are indeed the only reason to use forge, and most of the time you want to drop the forge ASAP.

You should look at the whole chain, to say sword auto chain is better kinda laughable. People want to drop forge ASAP because they don't want to manage anything else, it's easy to ditch the thing and come back to it instead of making the best use out of it without the risks that it's supposed to imply on the player because the cooldowns are so low, there needs to be a limitation somewhere.

Uh, yeah, thats what makes it clear. The whole chain takes about the same amount of time to complete. At 0 heat, sword does 0.586+0.62+1.0=2.206. Photon Forge does 0.4+0.666+1.066=2.132. So even at 0 heat, sword hits harder. And thats ignoring the vulnerability sword applies. But as heat increases, sword continues to get better. Above 50 heat its another 10% extra, for a total of 2.4266. Above 100% its 20% extra, for a total of 2.6472. It legitimately just is better, by a lot as heat increases. People drop it ASAP even at the highest level, simply because staying in it after using corona burst is a major DPS loss that also lowers your survivability. Dropping it ASAP is making the best use out of it.

It goes to show that Holo Leap and Corona Burst cooldowns are really short and need to be increased by 2 seconds each rather than having a kit cooldown change because the ease of access in either way to the skills is too user friendly. The first solution takes care better of the abuse compared the other, but if the kit had to be increased that would affect the thing as a whole rather than the build up of energy AND abuse of skills which is for the whole class synergy too, asking players to always reach near 100% for their bonuses. As it is right now people go forge, press buttons, quit, use everything else. Have to sustain? CC, Holo Leap, Holo Leap, Holo Leap, Holo Leap.

... why do you think increasing cooldowns would change anything, other than lower engineers mobility? People already drop Photon Forge ASAP because its optimal. Increase Corona Bursts cooldown, and it becomes even more optimal to drop the whole thing.

• New Photon Forge with Kit Increase, build up as much heat as you can then benefit from it or sustain with it for 10 seconds, it adds value to the kit rather than make it something to ditch every so often.Slows down the game play overall for the class, cooldowns unaffected so people can still use the same strategy, only much less often. Which is hitting on the part that makes Holosmith so strong.

Increase the cooldown and people just use photon forge less. It still gets ditched ASAP. Photon Forge nowadays is primarily there for the heat to buff up your good skills.

• New Holo Leap and Corona Burst cooldowns, you have to play more with the Forge and actually commit to more risks because otherwise the Forge is wasted since you can't use Holo Leap or Corona Burst twice in such a short amount of time. You sure as hell know, people get to use these 2 powerful skills at least twice in 6 seconds which is very beefy.Keep a similar pace while still adding more value to the skills, rather than press 3 222 3 222. High Risk, High Reward added to skills, as it should be, comparably to the kit increase.

No you dont. You just drop it as soon as you can anyway, and then enter it later again for Corona burst. The forge isnt wasted as long as you get off one corona burst and keep up heat for the might from capacitor. Thats pretty much all its used for anyway. If you want people to stay in photon forge more, and have it be high risk, you need to make staying in it worth it in the first place. Make it more like reaper shroud, rather than its current status as the type of kit you only use for 2 or 3 skills then switch off of.

[zoopop.5630]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

Was suggested before, people called it a stupid idea.

Even Revenant flow is limited to 10 seconds, it only makes sense to actually change the input rather than limit if and I say "if" by miracle someone overheats, those changes to the tool belt have done nothing to Holosmith in the end because nobody ever overheats.

Let the cooldown of Photon Forge be as comparable as to everything all the professions in the game basically rely to which is a 10 seconds cooldown.

Warrior is the only exception being that it has much less to fallback on but really short CD's, even as a Spellbreaker right now, remember even Full counter has a minimum of 10 seconds.

People actually wish for Revenant to have no Energy Costs on weapons, but that's a stupid idea considering everyone scream OP and the energy pool is actually clean cut on the management, interrupting even the best of flows can easily destroy one, it's a good spot and even if I don't like what they did with some of the trait, the whole class is relevant right now.

Besides, there's actually no need to touch Engineer at all right now maybe besides removing the critical hit from Explosive entrance, Scrappers being fought as well as Core actually need a good player to be played, I can attest to it and they have less than a Holo can constantly pull off, a 10 seconds cooldown won't hurt it at all.

I just feel like a 9s CD, same as everything else, would better distinguish the difference between good Holo players and sloppy ones. The 5s CD is a lot of padding for going in & out of forge at bad or unnecessary times.

Not really. It just means that forge gets stacked up before engaging, and then avoided as much as possible. You want to spend as little time in phorge as possible, since its pretty much just mobility and corona burst thats useful.

because the Autos in phorge are completely useless and deal no dmg at all right? Stating that phorge 2/3 are it's only use is pretty dumb.

Theyre not "useless" per se, but they hit less hard than sword autos. And other than Corona burst, there isnt anything you can use in photon forge, so you would just have worse autos than sword without the ability to use any other skills or swap to anything else. 2 and 3 are indeed the only reason to use forge, and most of the time you want to drop the forge ASAP.

No? Build up as much heat as possible....Spam Autos till you build up the heat so you can get out of phorge to then use Sword Skills that would do a lot more damage because you build up heat.

Auto on phorge has always been some what busted imo and Yes you spam 2 in phorge but autos are what makes holo "busted" not the corona burst thats been gutted heavily.

[UNOwen.7132]

@zoopop.5630 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I think the problem is easier to fix yet.

Photon Forge needs to be on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game, such as weapon swapping or necro shroud ect ect.

Was suggested before, people called it a stupid idea.

Even Revenant flow is limited to 10 seconds, it only makes sense to actually change the input rather than limit if and I say "if" by miracle someone overheats, those changes to the tool belt have done nothing to Holosmith in the end because nobody ever overheats.

Let the cooldown of Photon Forge be as comparable as to everything all the professions in the game basically rely to which is a 10 seconds cooldown.

Warrior is the only exception being that it has much less to fallback on but really short CD's, even as a Spellbreaker right now, remember even Full counter has a minimum of 10 seconds.

People actually wish for Revenant to have no Energy Costs on weapons, but that's a stupid idea considering everyone scream OP and the energy pool is actually clean cut on the management, interrupting even the best of flows can easily destroy one, it's a good spot and even if I don't like what they did with some of the trait, the whole class is relevant right now.

Besides, there's actually no need to touch Engineer at all right now maybe besides removing the critical hit from Explosive entrance, Scrappers being fought as well as Core actually need a good player to be played, I can attest to it and they have less than a Holo can constantly pull off, a 10 seconds cooldown won't hurt it at all.

I just feel like a 9s CD, same as everything else, would better distinguish the difference between good Holo players and sloppy ones. The 5s CD is a lot of padding for going in & out of forge at bad or unnecessary times.

Not really. It just means that forge gets stacked up before engaging, and then avoided as much as possible. You want to spend as little time in phorge as possible, since its pretty much just mobility and corona burst thats useful.

because the Autos in phorge are completely useless and deal no dmg at all right? Stating that phorge 2/3 are it's only use is pretty dumb.

Theyre not "useless" per se, but they hit less hard than sword autos. And other than Corona burst, there isnt anything you can use in photon forge, so you would just have worse autos than sword without the ability to use any other skills or swap to anything else. 2 and 3 are indeed the only reason to use forge, and most of the time you want to drop the forge ASAP.

No? Build up as much heat as possible....Spam Autos till you build up the heat so you can get out of phorge to then use Sword Skills that would do a lot more damage because you build up heat.

You already have heat built up from using forge 2 to move around the map. You will auto in forge because you have nothing better to do, but theyre not good.

Auto on phorge has always been some what busted imo and Yes you spam 2 in phorge but autos are what makes holo "busted" not the corona burst thats been gutted heavily.

The autos are inferior to sword autos. Photon forge is not actually good for damage. You use it to keep up might from capacitor and for mobility, and for Corona burst. otherwise, you just drop it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132sword autos get worse heat scaling then holo autos.sword autos are also slower then holo autos, and have MUCH lower range.I just tested sword autos vs holo autos, holo auto chain dealt about 4% more dmg, was faster, had larger aoe and it scales better with heat.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132sword autos get worse heat scaling then holo autos.

Oh right, laser edge doesnt apply while cooling down if youre not using blasting module. That changes things a little, but sword ultimately still comes out on top. Laser Edge gives 0.15% extra damage per point of heat, while sword just gets a set value after a threshold. This means certain heat ranges favour one over the other. 0-49, Holo comes out on top. Youre almost never at this heat. 50-67 heat, sword comes out on top. Youre in this range more often, but its still pretty rare.67-99, holo comes out on top. Youre at this heat range a fair bit. 100-133. Sword comes out on top. this is the heat range you spend most of your time in. And sword beats holo here. Finally, 134-150, photon forge wins. Youre never in this heat range. Youd overheat.

So yeah, most of the time sword wins.

sword autos are also slower then holo autos, and have MUCH lower range.

They appear to be very slightly slower. I got 2.6 seconds for sword, and 2.5 for holo. So, Holo chain takes 96% of it. Thats about as much of swords damage that holo does.

I just tested sword autos vs holo autos, holo auto chain dealt about 4% more dmg, was faster, had larger aoe and it scales better with heat.

Holo chain does less damage. We know the coefficients. Its slightly faster, but that events out with damage. Larger AoE is true, but youre fighting 1 on 1, so that doesnt matter much. And it scales generally worse with heat, while being better at certain breakpoints.

[Shao.7236]

@UNOwen.7132 You're missing the point, it's doing too much, needs to do less. Doesn't matter if it needs to be ditched quickly for more efficient calls because it's the issue that needs to be addressed in the first place. The purpose of my suggestions is to slow down and complicate Photon Forge by disrupting it's many low cooldown that requires no commitment from the player. Still exposing to the light that Holosmith overperforms because it allows the whole profession to ignore what it's supposed to do, combos and thoughtful multiskill uses.

If it actually took 10 seconds for each Photon Forge, that would still lower the amount of times people have /good/ skills like you say since Photo Forge apparently sucks?

People on average get 2 Corona Burst from start to finish of Photon Forge and that's mostly part of what makes Holosmith so strong, you cut that down with some cooldown increases, you cut down on what makes it overperforming. It's pretty obvious, instead of just killing Scrapper and Core even more by removing/adding undeserved ICD's to everything else.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132sword autos get worse heat scaling then holo autos.

Oh right, laser edge doesnt apply while cooling down if youre not using blasting module. That changes things a little, but sword ultimately still comes out on top. Laser Edge gives 0.15% extra damage per point of heat, while sword just gets a set value after a threshold. This means certain heat ranges favour one over the other. 0-49, Holo comes out on top. Youre almost never at this heat. 50-67 heat, sword comes out on top. Youre in this range more often, but its still pretty rare.67-99, holo comes out on top. Youre at this heat range a fair bit. 100-133. Sword comes out on top. this is the heat range you spend most of your time in. And sword beats holo here. Finally, 134-150, photon forge wins. Youre never in this heat range. Youd overheat.

So yeah, most of the time sword wins.

sword autos are also slower then holo autos, and have MUCH lower range.

They appear to be

very

slightly slower. I got 2.6 seconds for sword, and 2.5 for holo. So, Holo chain takes 96% of it. Thats about as much of swords damage that holo does.

I just tested sword autos vs holo autos, holo auto chain dealt about 4% more dmg, was faster, had larger aoe and it scales better with heat.

Holo chain does less damage. We know the coefficients. Its slightly faster, but that events out with damage. Larger AoE is true, but youre fighting 1 on 1, so that doesnt matter much. And it scales

generally

worse with heat, while being better at certain breakpoints.

actually go and test it, even with 0 heat, holo attacks not only faster but deals more damage. Propably holo forge has more weapon damage or some other shit that I dont care about, bottom line is, holo autos are better in every way then sword

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shao.7236 said:@UNOwen.7132 You're missing the point, it's doing too much, needs to do less. Doesn't matter if it needs to be ditched quickly for more efficient calls because it's the issue that needs to be addressed in the first place. The purpose of my suggestions is to slow down and complicate Photon Forge by disrupting it's many low cooldown that requires no commitment from the player. Still exposing to the light that Holosmith overperforms because it allows the whole profession to ignore what it's supposed to do, combos and thoughtful multiskill uses.

If it was doing too much, then core engineer would also overperform. It doesnt. The issue with Holo isnt an issue with Holo at all. Its the fact that damage as a whole is just too low right now. Holo is pretty interchangeable with zerk ranger or condi Rev. All that matters is that these builds are nearly unkillable due to damage being too low (even though theyre full zerk and run no damage reduction, and that they have knockbacks.

If it actually took 10 seconds for each Photon Forge, that would still lower the amount of times people have /good/ skills like you say since Photo Forge apparently sucks?

It would be a nerf, yes. But it wouldnt be elegant. You want to weaken a class, not make it less fun to use. Its also a solution that misunderstands what the problem is.

People on average get 2 Corona Burst from start to finish of Photon Forge and that's mostly part of what makes Holosmith so strong, you cut that down with some cooldown increases, you cut down on what makes it overperforming. It's pretty obvious, instead of just killing Scrapper and Core even more by removing/adding undeserved ICD's to everything else.

Thats actually an incredibly insignificant part of why Holo is good. In fact, in the current meta Id argue its pretty irrelevant. You dont kill without +1ing, and corona burst, especially 2 in 6 seconds, arent big when outnumbering. Holo is good because damage is too low. So any almost unkillable class with a knockback is good.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132sword autos get worse heat scaling then holo autos.

Oh right, laser edge doesnt apply while cooling down if youre not using blasting module. That changes things a little, but sword ultimately still comes out on top. Laser Edge gives 0.15% extra damage per point of heat, while sword just gets a set value after a threshold. This means certain heat ranges favour one over the other. 0-49, Holo comes out on top. Youre almost never at this heat. 50-67 heat, sword comes out on top. Youre in this range more often, but its still pretty rare.67-99, holo comes out on top. Youre at this heat range a fair bit. 100-133. Sword comes out on top. this is the heat range you spend most of your time in. And sword beats holo here. Finally, 134-150, photon forge wins. Youre never in this heat range. Youd overheat.

So yeah, most of the time sword wins.

sword autos are also slower then holo autos, and have MUCH lower range.

They appear to be

very

slightly slower. I got 2.6 seconds for sword, and 2.5 for holo. So, Holo chain takes 96% of it. Thats about as much of swords damage that holo does.

I just tested sword autos vs holo autos, holo auto chain dealt about 4% more dmg, was faster, had larger aoe and it scales better with heat.

Holo chain does less damage. We know the coefficients. Its slightly faster, but that events out with damage. Larger AoE is true, but youre fighting 1 on 1, so that doesnt matter much. And it scales

generally

worse with heat, while being better at certain breakpoints.

actually go and test it, even with 0 heat, holo attacks not only faster but deals more damage. Propably holo forge has more weapon damage or some other kitten that I dont care about, bottom line is, holo autos are better in every way then sword

I did. The problem you have is that at 0 heat, you get Laser Edge in the calculation, which makes it messy. Try using both at around 120 heat. You will find sword autos hit harder as a whole. Even as you get close to the breakpoint.