Raid monetization in the hopes of getting more wings

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Remember, that all the money the "template" system earned caused it to be worse than it might have been otherwise. Try to imagine what the monetization might do with raids. Consider if it's what you really wanted.

Fair point but wouldnt that also aply to lw to extend? I mean its free for a while but then it becomes paid content, the expansions have been paid content as well and they've been some of the best content we've had.Yes, it does apply to LS, and it does have some negative consequences there as well. A consequence of LS chapters (and thus, maps) being locked behind a purchase is that they cannot easily return to them later on. Also, practically each LS map is practically a microcosm of its own, completely separated from the rest of the game. That's the very reason why the Sun Refuge has been abandoned immediately after it got released, for example.

Im not saying you cant be right in this case but monetising systems vs content might be different.Attaching gem price to episodes caused each episode to be completely self-contained, and disassociated from the rest of the game, which was a very bad thing. So, yeah, it's not that much different for content after all....even if it's still not even close to the level of the mess the template system is.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Remember, that all the money the "template" system earned caused it to be worse than it might have been otherwise. Try to imagine what the monetization might do with raids. Consider if it's what you really wanted.

Fair point but wouldnt that also aply to lw to extend? I mean its free for a while but then it becomes paid content, the expansions have been paid content as well and they've been some of the best content we've had.Yes, it does apply to LS, and it does have some negative consequences there as well. A consequence of LS chapters (and thus, maps) being locked behind a purchase is that they cannot easily return to them later on. Also, practically each LS map is practically a microcosm of its own, completely separated from the rest of the game. That's the very reason why the Sun Refuge has been abandoned immediately after it got released, for example.

Im not saying you cant be right in this case but monetising systems vs content might be different.Attaching gem price to episodes caused each episode to be completely self-contained, and disassociated from the rest of the game, which was a very bad thing. So, yeah, it's not that much different for content after all....even if it's still not even close to the level of the mess the template system is.

I dont think it was the pricing of lw thats the issue but rather each episode being priced individually or a season instead of being built into other purchases like an overall season package only or with expacs.

We've already seen hot elements make a return with the inclusion of hot to pof so that could aply to lw as well.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:I dont think it was the pricing of lw thats the issue but rather each episode being priced individually or a season instead of being built into other purchases like an overall season package only or with expacs.Yes, it's the optional and individual nature of the pricing that causes the problem here. Expacs avoid it by being one big package, and by being something that you are expected to buy.

That's exactly the reason why HoT got included for free into PoF purchase now - they want to avoid segmenting the game. This way they can just assume everyone is on the same page.

The thing that is more worrying is that the LS pricing model is very old. Templates were way more recent - and template system is way, way more greedy in its monetization. So, ask yourself the question how the monetization of LS would look like if it was designed not many years ago, but now. And then think, that even the most pessimistic predictions about how template system might get monetized turned out to fall way short of the truth.

So, again, when you ask for something to be monetized, be wary. Because at this point, if that wish were to be realized, it's quite likely you might end up regretting that.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I dont think it was the pricing of lw thats the issue but rather each episode being priced individually or a season instead of being built into other purchases like an overall season package only or with expacs.Yes, it's the optional and individual nature of the pricing that causes the problem here. Expacs avoid it by being one big package, and by being something that you are

expected

to buy.

That's exactly the reason why HoT got included for free into PoF purchase now - they want to avoid segmenting the game. This way they can just assume everyone is on the same page.

The thing that is more worrying is that the LS pricing model is very old. Templates were way more recent - and template system is way, way more greedy in its monetization. So, ask yourself the question how the monetization of LS would look like if it was designed not many years ago, but now. And then think, that even the most pessimistic predictions about how template system might get monetized turned out to fall way short of the truth.

So, again, when you ask for something to be monetized, be wary. Because at this point, if that wish were to be realized, it's quite likely you might end up regretting that.

Its damned if you do damned if you dont in this case so ehh. Its worth considering tho that raids(any instanced bit of content) works way in segments than lw does.

[Blaeys.3102]

All this would do is shrink the pool of potential raiders expontentially, making the problem even worse than it is now, splitting raiders between those willing to pay and those who expect it to be a part of the base game. And how long before someone insists on unique armor stats locked behind paying for raids - the definition of "pay to win."

Raids could have been salvaged years ago, but the option people put forward at that time by a group of players was continually shot down by both other players and even a few of the developers. And, as predicted, raid content development didn't warrant the investing in the resources needed to keep up with community demands.

I am sorry to watch the game mode dwindle away, but I am far from surprised to see it happen.

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

You're all missing the point of the post, so let me reiterate. The idea of this post was to come up with things people would be willing to purchase in order to justify to the business that is Anet to make more raids. At no point was I suggesting raids themselves become paid content behind a pay wall. That in itself would be the death of raids. I was thinking things more along the lines of the rechargable TP to friend or some such variants. Tools that are QoL items that people just "may" spend money on in order for the dev. team to justify putting resources back on raids.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't think people misunderstood your post ... it's just clear that no one wants to pay for content they think they are entitled to. Then you wonder why there are no raids being developed. /shrug.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Delita Silverburg.8632" said:You're all missing the point of the post, so let me reiterate. The idea of this post was to come up with things people would be willing to purchase in order to justify to the business that is Anet to make more raids. At no point was I suggesting raids themselves become paid content behind a pay wall. That in itself would be the death of raids. I was thinking things more along the lines of the rechargable TP to friend or some such variants. Tools that are QoL items that people just "may" spend money on in order for the dev. team to justify putting resources back on raids.Do you really think that buying raid-unrelated stuff (or even raid-related stuf) would cause devs to make more raids, instead of just making more of the type of stuff you ended up buying? Because i am highly doubtful of that.

[panzerdragon.8791]

From where I am sitting raids are the only reason I ever had to buy gold. I could not make my legendary armor with whatever tiny amounts of gold I received from weekly clears. Now that I am equiped for all my toons there is little incentive to keep pulling up li/ld or go back to the gem store. With only a trickle of end game content coming out it's hard to find things to do. No time in game means no reason to purchase more stuff.

My purchases so far:

Both world boss and maguma teleportsCopper and silver salvagerUnbound magic , skyscale , molten mining toolsMany bag slots, bank tabs , and material storage slots

The techno looking mount skins

About 2k gold for crafting

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Delita Silverburg.8632" said:You're all missing the point of the post, so let me reiterate. The idea of this post was to come up with things people would be willing to purchase in order to justify to the business that is Anet to make more raids. At no point was I suggesting raids themselves become paid content behind a pay wall. That in itself would be the death of raids. I was thinking things more along the lines of the rechargable TP to friend or some such variants. Tools that are QoL items that people just "may" spend money on in order for the dev. team to justify putting resources back on raids.Do you really think that buying raid-unrelated stuff (or even raid-related stuf) would cause devs to make more raids, instead of just making more of the type of stuff you ended up buying? Because i am highly doubtful of that.

We should be more open minded here ... you don't think Anet could create a thing people would want to purchase to justify Anet developing raids? How about the raids themselves?

I'm going to make a really unpopular statement; Anet should be charging us for ALL content directly. Not this 'LS paid through expansions', not this 'raids are part of the expansion' trash. Why do you think we get subpart releases? LS 4 was garbage, we have no raid development to speak of, the idea we were going to get 'expansion-level' content in ICE never happened. If we want a good game, we NEED to be paying for it. I see NO reason a raid can't be a purchased DLC content pack, including all the cool skins and items and whatevers that are in them. I wouldn't even object to having a character development stream over these things. For example, unlocking a high end PVE elite spec ... or another mastery line related to team content. People wouldn't pay for that? I sure think they would ... we just need an Anet with the ballz to do it.

[LucianDK.8615]

I think its pretty clear that raiding just isnt a profitable direction to develop in when so few actually sees and does the content. It was for that reasoning that wow added LFR, as the alternative was no more raids.

[Fueki.4753]

It's pretty clear that raids were never going to be profitable from the get-go, since (as far as I know) only wanted the top crust of players to do them anyway.

There are reasons why Blizzard made WoW's raids far more accessible in WotLK.

[Thornwolf.9721]

Strikes. Those are your new raids for better or worse~

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Obtena.7952" said:I'm going to make a really unpopular statement; Anet should be charging us for ALL content directly. Not this 'LS paid through expansions', not this 'raids are part of the expansion' trash. Why do you think we get subpart releases? LS 4 was garbage, we have no raid development to speak of, the idea we were going to get 'expansion-level' content in ICE never happened. If we want a good game, we NEED to be paying for it. I see NO reason a raid can't be a purchased DLC content pack, including all the cool skins and items and whatevers that are in them. I wouldn't even object to having a character development stream over these things. For example, unlocking a high end PVE elite spec ... or another mastery line related to team content. People wouldn't pay for that? I sure think they would ... we just need an Anet with the kitten to do it.

Agreed. Of course if they go that way, they need to tone down the gem store offerings and make those mount skins, outfits and others available in the actual content, as they will no longer need that much income from gem store items anymore. Maybe they will be forced to do it if rng items become outlawed.

2000 gems are 25.00 €, I'd rather pay 25 € for a Raid, a Fractal, a good Living World episode, Legendary Weapons with proper "journeys", new Elite Specializations, a new Mount, over a "deluxe" mount skin. But that's, as you said, unpopular statement. Maybe this game's playerbase likes being free loaders instead.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Fueki.4753" said:It's pretty clear that raids were never going to be profitable from the get-go, since (as far as I know) only wanted the top crust of players to do them anyway.

How exactly do you count how "profitable" Raids are? In a game with a cash shop, a specific content type doesn't make much of a difference in profitability.

There are reasons why Blizzard made WoW's raids far more accessible in WotLK.

This argument of Raid profitability would have a meaning if Raids were sold separately and weren't selling as much as expected. Then yes, making them more accessible would lead to more players buying them, therefore making them more profitable. I don't see how Raids being more accessible would lead more players to buy outfits and mount skins from the gem store.

Blizzard made their Raids more accessible because there is hardly anything outside Raids to do in WoW (plus they are part of the story). If their Raids weren't accessible then subscriptions would plummet as players wouldn't have anything to do other than Raids. In Guild Wars we have a mass focus on the Living World instead, would you rather they stop Living World releases and instead start releasing more Raids that are more accessible? Let's not compare completely different games and situations.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Delita Silverburg.8632" said:You're all missing the point of the post, so let me reiterate. The idea of this post was to come up with things people would be willing to purchase in order to justify to the business that is Anet to make more raids. At no point was I suggesting raids themselves become paid content behind a pay wall. That in itself would be the death of raids. I was thinking things more along the lines of the rechargable TP to friend or some such variants. Tools that are QoL items that people just "may" spend money on in order for the dev. team to justify putting resources back on raids.Do you really think that buying raid-unrelated stuff (or even raid-related stuf) would cause devs to make more raids, instead of just making more of the type of stuff you ended up buying? Because i am highly doubtful of that.

We should be more open minded here ... you don't think Anet could create a thing people would want to purchase to justify Anet developing raids? How about the raids themselves?Oh, i definitely think Anet could create things people would want to purchase. I'm also sure that people purchasing them wouls only tell Anet that people want more of said item, not more of

something else

. So, i don't see how OPs idea could work

short of selling raids directly

. Which, as OP claimed, was

not

what they wanted.

I'm going to make a really unpopular statement; Anet should be charging us for ALL content directly. Not this 'LS paid through expansions', not this 'raids are part of the expansion' trash. Why do you think we get subpart releases? LS 4 was garbage, we have no raid development to speak of, the idea we were going to get 'expansion-level' content in ICE never happened. If we want a good game, we NEED to be paying for it. I see NO reason a raid can't be a purchased DLC content pack, including all the cool skins and items and whatevers that are in them. I wouldn't even object to having a character development stream over these things. For example, unlocking a high end PVE elite spec ... or another mastery line related to team content. People wouldn't pay for that? I sure think they would ... we just need an Anet with the kitten to do it.Selling content piecemeal is the worst think that can happen to said content. It does not encourage developers to make more stuff, not really. What it does encourage is to make developers to think of more ways something can be monetized, and to design content around that single overriding goal. It also brings with it a ton of heavy restrictions you'd normally rather avoid. In the end, it's vastly inferior to a subscription model.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Selling content piecemeal is the worst think that can happen to said content. It does not encourage developers to make more stuff, not really. What it does encourage is to make developers to think of more ways something can be monetized, and to design content around that single overriding goal. It also brings with it a ton of heavy restrictions you'd normally rather avoid. In the end, it's vastly inferior to a subscription model.

That would depend on the value of the content offered compared to having everything while paying a subscription. If the content is too expensive then a subscription would be a much better offer. However, if a game starts offering content piecemeal then that is usually followed by an optional subscription service to have everything unlocked while paying, instead of unlocking all the items individually (but permanently).

In the end it's up to the developers to start offering a few pieces to check the waters, if it's successful they can continue, if it's not, no real harm done. I think they'd never do something like this for the entire game all at once, or even offer multiple things, it should be a gradual thing. It wouldn't be the first time they tried something new and then abandon it completely

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Selling content piecemeal is the worst think that can happen to said content. It does not encourage developers to make more stuff, not really. What it does encourage is to make developers to think of more ways something can be monetized, and to design content around that single overriding goal. It also brings with it a ton of heavy restrictions you'd normally rather avoid. In the end, it's vastly inferior to a subscription model.

That would depend on the value of the content offered compared to having

everything

while paying a subscription. If the content is too expensive then a subscription would be a much better offer. However, if a game starts offering content piecemeal then that is usually followed by an optional subscription service to have everything unlocked while paying, instead of unlocking all the items individually (but permanently).It's not about the total price. It's about how both those approaches impact the content itself. In my opinion, while subscription system is definitely not perfect, and las a lot of downsides, the downsides for the dlc-based system are much more impactful, with the positives not being strong enough to balance that.

One of the downsides we've already seen in the LS chapters - each "dlc" (in this case, chapter) is a separate content with next to no connection with all other content types. It's the difference between one big whole, complementary system, and a set of barely connected boxes. Another downside - the desire to design the content/system around monetization first, is another example we could see presented us in the form of build templates.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Selling content piecemeal is the worst think that can happen to said content. It does not encourage developers to make more stuff, not really. What it does encourage is to make developers to think of more ways something can be monetized, and to design content around that single overriding goal. It also brings with it a ton of heavy restrictions you'd normally rather avoid. In the end, it's vastly inferior to a subscription model.

That would depend on the value of the content offered compared to having

everything

while paying a subscription. If the content is too expensive then a subscription would be a much better offer. However, if a game starts offering content piecemeal then that is usually followed by an optional subscription service to have everything unlocked while paying, instead of unlocking all the items individually (but permanently).It's not about the total price. It's about how both those approaches impact the content itself. In my opinion, while subscription system is definitely not perfect, and las a lot of downsides, the downsides for the dlc-based system are much more impactful, with the positives not being strong enough to balance that.

One of the downsides we've already seen in the LS chapters - each "dlc" (in this case, chapter) is a separate content with next to no connection with all other content types. It's the difference between one big whole, complementary system, and a set of barely connected boxes. Another downside - the desire to design the content/system around monetization first, is another example we could see presented us in the form of build templates.

This is true but "DLC" like Raids should be separate content with no connection with the rest of the game anyway. Living World episodes being disconnected is a problem, but proper "DLC" being disconnected can be a non-issue. But if build templates taught us anything is to expect the worse when it comes to any kind of monetization. It was such a heavy blow that I don't know when/if the game will recover from.

But in principle, a "DLC" system could work, sadly I have zero faith in Anet pulling that off.

[zealex.9410]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Delita Silverburg.8632" said:You're all missing the point of the post, so let me reiterate. The idea of this post was to come up with things people would be willing to purchase in order to justify to the business that is Anet to make more raids. At no point was I suggesting raids themselves become paid content behind a pay wall. That in itself would be the death of raids. I was thinking things more along the lines of the rechargable TP to friend or some such variants. Tools that are QoL items that people just "may" spend money on in order for the dev. team to justify putting resources back on raids.Do you really think that buying raid-unrelated stuff (or even raid-related stuf) would cause devs to make more raids, instead of just making more of the type of stuff you ended up buying? Because i am highly doubtful of that.

We should be more open minded here ... you don't think Anet could create a thing people would want to purchase to justify Anet developing raids? How about the raids themselves?

I'm going to make a really unpopular statement; Anet should be charging us for ALL content directly. Not this 'LS paid through expansions', not this 'raids are part of the expansion' trash. Why do you think we get subpart releases? LS 4 was garbage, we have no raid development to speak of, the idea we were going to get 'expansion-level' content in ICE never happened. If we want a good game, we NEED to be paying for it. I see NO reason a raid can't be a purchased DLC content pack, including all the cool skins and items and whatevers that are in them. I wouldn't even object to having a character development stream over these things. For example, unlocking a high end PVE elite spec ... or another mastery line related to team content. People wouldn't pay for that? I sure think they would ... we just need an Anet with the kitten to do it.

Obtena made this post? What is life.

[zealex.9410]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:I'm going to make a really unpopular statement; Anet should be charging us for ALL content directly. Not this 'LS paid through expansions', not this 'raids are part of the expansion' trash. Why do you think we get subpart releases? LS 4 was garbage, we have no raid development to speak of, the idea we were going to get 'expansion-level' content in ICE never happened. If we want a good game, we NEED to be paying for it. I see NO reason a raid can't be a purchased DLC content pack, including all the cool skins and items and whatevers that are in them. I wouldn't even object to having a character development stream over these things. For example, unlocking a high end PVE elite spec ... or another mastery line related to team content. People wouldn't pay for that? I sure think they would ... we just need an Anet with the kitten to do it.

Agreed. Of course if they go that way, they need to tone down the gem store offerings and make those mount skins, outfits and others available in the actual content, as they will no longer need that much income from gem store items anymore. Maybe they will be forced to do it if rng items become outlawed.

2000 gems are 25.00 €, I'd rather pay 25 € for a Raid, a Fractal, a good Living World episode, Legendary Weapons with proper "journeys", new Elite Specializations, a new Mount, over a "deluxe" mount skin. But that's, as you said, unpopular statement. Maybe this game's playerbase likes being free loaders instead.

Its basically mostly the freeloarders. Its common sense that you could be spending your "support the game by buying gems" money to pay for a dlc or a sub in another mmo instead and get great content for it.

Truth is you get kore for your buck there but thats the point, you give you money and get smth in return.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Delita Silverburg.8632" said:You're all missing the point of the post, so let me reiterate. The idea of this post was to come up with things people would be willing to purchase in order to justify to the business that is Anet to make more raids. At no point was I suggesting raids themselves become paid content behind a pay wall. That in itself would be the death of raids. I was thinking things more along the lines of the rechargable TP to friend or some such variants. Tools that are QoL items that people just "may" spend money on in order for the dev. team to justify putting resources back on raids.Do you really think that buying raid-unrelated stuff (or even raid-related stuf) would cause devs to make more raids, instead of just making more of the type of stuff you ended up buying? Because i am highly doubtful of that.

We should be more open minded here ... you don't think Anet could create a thing people would want to purchase to justify Anet developing raids? How about the raids themselves?Oh, i definitely think Anet could create things people would want to purchase. I'm also sure that people purchasing them wouls only tell Anet that people want more of said item, not more of

something else

. So, i don't see how OPs idea could work

short of selling raids directly

. Which, as OP claimed, was

not

what they wanted.

I'm going to make a really unpopular statement; Anet should be charging us for ALL content directly. Not this 'LS paid through expansions', not this 'raids are part of the expansion' trash. Why do you think we get subpart releases? LS 4 was garbage, we have no raid development to speak of, the idea we were going to get 'expansion-level' content in ICE never happened. If we want a good game, we NEED to be paying for it. I see NO reason a raid can't be a purchased DLC content pack, including all the cool skins and items and whatevers that are in them. I wouldn't even object to having a character development stream over these things. For example, unlocking a high end PVE elite spec ... or another mastery line related to team content. People wouldn't pay for that? I sure think they would ... we just need an Anet with the kitten to do it.Selling content piecemeal is the worst think that can happen to said content. It does not encourage developers to make more stuff, not really. What it does encourage is to make developers to think of more ways something can be monetized, and to design content around that single overriding goal. It also brings with it a ton of heavy restrictions you'd normally rather avoid. In the end, it's vastly inferior to a subscription model.

You can have both tho and ppl will get to choose the model they prefer.

[Obtena.7952]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Delita Silverburg.8632" said:You're all missing the point of the post, so let me reiterate. The idea of this post was to come up with things people would be willing to purchase in order to justify to the business that is Anet to make more raids. At no point was I suggesting raids themselves become paid content behind a pay wall. That in itself would be the death of raids. I was thinking things more along the lines of the rechargable TP to friend or some such variants. Tools that are QoL items that people just "may" spend money on in order for the dev. team to justify putting resources back on raids.Do you really think that buying raid-unrelated stuff (or even raid-related stuf) would cause devs to make more raids, instead of just making more of the type of stuff you ended up buying? Because i am highly doubtful of that.

We should be more open minded here ... you don't think Anet could create a thing people would want to purchase to justify Anet developing raids? How about the raids themselves?

I'm going to make a really unpopular statement; Anet should be charging us for ALL content directly. Not this 'LS paid through expansions', not this 'raids are part of the expansion' trash. Why do you think we get subpart releases? LS 4 was garbage, we have no raid development to speak of, the idea we were going to get 'expansion-level' content in ICE never happened. If we want a good game, we NEED to be paying for it. I see NO reason a raid can't be a purchased DLC content pack, including all the cool skins and items and whatevers that are in them. I wouldn't even object to having a character development stream over these things. For example, unlocking a high end PVE elite spec ... or another mastery line related to team content. People wouldn't pay for that? I sure think they would ... we just need an Anet with the kitten to do it.

Obtena made this post? What is life.

You're surprised I want to the game to be good? I mean ... the point here is that if people aren't willing to pay for content ... they don't care about the game to begin with.