Evading a stealth attack should reveal the attacker

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 8/28/2020 at 5:05 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Hope all these people asking for stealth nerfs are willing to tolerate thief sustain buffs so they can contest you with limited/no stealth if they so desire.As long as I have the option to play a perfectly viable build without having to rely on stealth to not die, you can do whatever you want to the mechanic.

LETS

GO

SPECTER 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

This thread got necro'd harder than you after eating a Harbinger condi burst. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by CutesySylveon.8290

[myun.6395]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

*coughs, hacks*

Ayo this thread's DUSTY lets find some relics!

Well sometimes it happens, yesterday I had a specter in the enemy team, he used all his cds at my close node at foefire map. I almost killed him 1vs1, he did stealth on top of the node. Literally 1 second later he appearead on the far node😅literally on top of it where my other teammates were, so I went there to help them out. He was at risk dying again, he stealthed and 1 second later he was on my close node and decapped it.

And of course he excused himself with noob l2p it's shadowstep and wells etc.

He was careful not to use it while revealed, he had legendary weapons and armor skins, so of course doesnt want be banned, its not the usual "asuysjaga" hacking bot.

It's rare, but it happens and it's almost impossible to caught them on video because of stealth. I wish I had it recorded, but I don't record while playing or I literally have 5 fps and I don't do nothing with my videos anyway so.

 

This being said, stealth is broken.

[Bazsi.2734]

56 minutes ago, myun.6395 said:

Well sometimes it happens, yesterday I had a specter in the enemy team, he used all his cds at my close node at foefire map. I almost killed him 1vs1, he did stealth on top of the node. Literally 1 second later he appearead on the far node😅literally on top of it where my other teammates were, so I went there to help them out. He was at risk dying again, he stealthed and 1 second later he was on my close node and decapped it.

And of course he excused himself with noob l2p it's shadowstep and wells etc.

He was careful not to use it while revealed, he had legendary weapons and armor skins, so of course doesnt want be banned, its not the usual "asuysjaga" hacking bot.

It's rare, but it happens and it's almost impossible to caught them on video because of stealth. I wish I had it recorded, but I don't record while playing or I literally have 5 fps and I don't do nothing with my videos anyway so.

 

This being said, stealth is broken.

This thread just keeps on giving, even after being necro-d the second time.
 

"So i saw this thief speedhacking, anyways nerf stealth". 😄

[Hotride.2187]

11 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

"So i saw this thief speedhacking, anyways nerf stealth". 😄

Well honestly if I evade a stealth attack I feel like I've earned the reveal. But anyway, evading it means you know where the thief is, that is almost as good as a reveal.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

I do think that reflected projectiles should by default hit the shooter when they're in stealth. It's really annoying that there's no punishment for that, and it giving away their position isn't a punishment when only ground target AoE's are able to even hit and the projectiles that appear out of thin air are often buggy and inconsistent in placement. 

[Bazsi.2734]

4 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Well honestly if I evade a stealth attack I feel like I've earned the reveal. But anyway, evading it means you know where the thief is, that is almost as good as a reveal.

Evading an attack is rewarded by not you not getting hit. I don't get why one would need more "reward" for this action. 

But I already have a trollbuild idea if they were to introduce this(they won't, but it's fun to theorycraft). So far I went out of my way not to play https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flickering_Shadows or https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed_Training, but if even missing stealth attacks could help you maintain revealed, I have a few very dumb and very low skill spamfest ideas to be as kittenous as possible on thief. Escpecially with the addition of specter.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

4 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Evading an attack is rewarded by not you not getting hit. I don't get why one would need more "reward" for this action. 

Because it's from stealth, meaning it by default has no counterplay beyond guessing. It's not like evading Bulls Charge where it's telegraphed, the attack literally happens out of thin air for the person being hit. 

[Bazsi.2734]

22 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Because it's from stealth, meaning it by default has no counterplay beyond guessing. It's not like evading Bulls Charge where it's telegraphed, the attack literally happens out of thin air for the person being hit. 

The same would go for every instant cast ability. They have "no counterplay beyond guessing". What should be the reward for dodgeing those?

[CutesySylveon.8290]

Just now, Bazsi.2734 said:

The same would go for every instant cast ability. They have "no counterplay beyond guessing". What should be the reward for dodgeing those?

1. Most people acknowledge that instant cast things like Mantra of Distraction are horribly designed and don't have proper counterplay. 

 

2. That's whataboutism. We're talking about stealth attacks. Don't try to change the subject by inserting other things, because then you're forced to answer for another sacred cow thief players refuse to be honest about; steal. 

[Bazsi.2734]

1 minute ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

1. Most people acknowledge that instant cast things like Mantra of Distraction are horribly designed and don't have proper counterplay. 

 

2. That's whataboutism. We're talking about stealth attacks. Don't try to change the subject by inserting other things, because then you're forced to answer for another sacred cow thief players refuse to be honest about; steal. 

Nice non-answer. Taking a step back and treating all attacks you have to anticipate as one(which includes most stealth attacks, or attack from stealth in general) is apparently whataboutism.

So here is my non-answer in kind:
Why bring up steal, it's not a stealth attack. Why are you diverting the conversation? We are talking about stealth attacks! Stick to the topic instead of strawmanning, jerrymandering, sloganeering and scapegoating and... many more bad words. REEEEE!

[CutesySylveon.8290]

15 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Nice non-answer. Taking a step back and treating all attacks you have to anticipate as one(which includes most stealth attacks, or attack from stealth in general) is apparently whataboutism.

So here is my non-answer in kind:
Why bring up steal, it's not a stealth attack. Why are you diverting the conversation? We are talking about stealth attacks! Stick to the topic instead of strawmanning, jerrymandering, sloganeering and scapegoating and... many more bad words. REEEEE!

We're specifically talking about stealth attacks and how they act after being avoided. I tell you to stay on topic when you try to sidetrack it with things that aren't relevant, and you start whinging. Typical discussion with thief mains.

I told you to stay on topic about stealth attacks because if you want to bring up instant cast abilities, then steal is looking you square in the face with its nonsense. So change your pants and stay on topic.

 

Dodging a stealth attack should reveal by virtue of it having no legitimate counterplay beyond lucky guess. 

[Bazsi.2734]

2 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

We're specifically talking about stealth attacks and how they act after being avoided. I tell you to stay on topic when you try to sidetrack it with things that aren't relevant, and you start whinging. Typical discussion with thief mains.

I told you to stay on topic about stealth attacks because if you want to bring up instant cast abilities, then steal is looking you square in the face with its nonsense. So change your pants and stay on topic.

 

Dodging a stealth attack should reveal by virtue of it having no legitimate counterplay beyond lucky guess. 

Oh I'm a thief main again. When did that happen? Strawman me a bit harder please, I might gain a cool ability to scare birds away or something. I love this thread.
(Btw we met in ranked/unranked many times over the last 3 years. I played a variety of classes, you were always on thief 😄 )

By the way the observation that instant casts include steal is correct. Now what should be the reward for evading it? You still have a chance to answer that original question. If you think only stealth attacks need this treatment, that's also an answer. Come on, you're so smart, you can do it! Insult me some more if that makes you feel good, just wrack that grey-matter of yours and come up with something constructive for once.

[Mik.3401]

1 hour ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

The same would go for every instant cast ability. They have "no counterplay beyond guessing". What should be the reward for dodgeing those?

I wouldn’t treat these two as equal. Yes in both cases you cannot be sure when specific skill is coming. But in case of stealth you often don’t know if your opponent is there or not on top of that. It may be a detail but I any small detail can change the outcome of a fight

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Evading an attack is rewarded by not you not getting hit. I don't get why one would need more "reward" for this action.

Yeah but in comes the next one, cause the thief is still stealthed. From my POV I've done great at the guessing game and still I have to counterpressure (sort of blindly) cause the thief didnt really get hurt from being predictable.

As for instant casts, the only difference is the CD. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I only duel thieves in wvw (a lot), I dont play one. Though usually the thief restealths anyway until you are out of CDs and/or they get the crits they wanted.

Against a good thief evading a stealth attack is major sweating tbh, I cant get it consistently anyway. And the bad ones just restealth as listed above.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Bazsi.2734]

1 minute ago, Mik.3401 said:

I wouldn’t treat these two as equal. Yes in both cases you cannot be sure when specific skill is coming. But in case of stealth you often don’t know if your opponent is there or not on top of that. It may be a detail but I any small detail can change the outcome of a fight

When we cite the reason for wanting a change as "no counterplay beyond guessing", they fall into the same category. So you'd have to find a significant enough reason as to why we should treat them differently. "Not knowing if the enemy is there or not" does not apply to ongoing fights. And you won't be dodgeing proper stealth gank openers, so...

My point still stands. If dodgeing a stealth attack warrants a reward/punish BECAUSE it has no counterplay beyond guessing, then so does dodgeing all the other instant stuff. Of course I don't think there should be a reward for any of this, I'm a boring centrist who thinks the status quo is fine in this case... but others do not, and I just want them to explain why.

[Bazsi.2734]

1 minute ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Yeah but in comes the next one, cause the thief is still stealthed. From my POV I've done great at the guessing game and still I have to counterpressure (sort of blindly) cause the thief didnt really get hurt from being predictable.

As for instant casts, the only difference is the CD. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I only duel thieves in wvw (a lot), I dont play one. Though usually the thief restealths anyway until you are out of CDs and/or they get the crits they wanted.

Against a good thief evading a stealth attack is major sweating tbh, I cant get it consistently anyway. And the bad ones just restealth as listed above.

There is a cooldown on the stealth attack. If it misses, your stealth will likely drop by the time you can backstab/whatever again. That means the thief HAS TO restealth to use the same attack again, which will give you a window to punish, your cooldowns get extra seconds to recharge etc... it's balanced for sPvP. A stealth heavy build has no chance to contest a capture point, not enough offense - restricted stat combos and power coefficients - to just kill the enemy in one burst, so breaking combat only to repeatedly attack the same sidenoder is one of the worst things a thief can do(it's just not a thing that happens). In WvW however, you are not bound to capture points, numbers are way out of whack, the map is basicly infinitely big and the enemy thief can run away in any direction... there is a reason I do not play WvW unless I'm forced to(Gift of Battle).
 

[Hotride.2187]

15 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

it's balanced for sPvP. A stealth heavy build has no chance to contest a capture point

Yeah thief in spvp cant duel. Personally I dunno why this topic is in spvp, you will dodge nothing when the thief +1s you and continues on their way to decap.

Makes way more sense in wvw where a thief can harass you for 5+ mins.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[CutesySylveon.8290]

1 hour ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Oh I'm a thief main again. When did that happen? Strawman me a bit harder please, I might gain a cool ability to scare birds away or something. I love this thread.
(Btw we met in ranked/unranked many times over the last 3 years. I played a variety of classes, you were always on thief 😄 )

By the way the observation that instant casts include steal is correct. Now what should be the reward for evading it? You still have a chance to answer that original question. If you think only stealth attacks need this treatment, that's also an answer. Come on, you're so smart, you can do it! Insult me some more if that makes you feel good, just wrack that grey-matter of yours and come up with something constructive for once.

Do you even know my character names? Because I'm on warrior and guardian much more than thief. (I'm giving you a way out from your claim of seeing me in Conquest, so take it. The true answer on that makes you look bad.)

 

Once again, you refuse to specifically touch the topic of Stealth Attacks, the main discussion. Keep trying to derail it with things nobody was talking about,  this necro'd thread was interesting back when it was made too. You strawmanned the initial conversation and now say I did. Funny. 

[Mik.3401]

49 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

When we cite the reason for wanting a change as "no counterplay beyond guessing", they fall into the same category. So you'd have to find a significant enough reason as to why we should treat them differently. "Not knowing if the enemy is there or not" does not apply to ongoing fights. And you won't be dodgeing proper stealth gank openers, so...

My point still stands. If dodgeing a stealth attack warrants a reward/punish BECAUSE it has no counterplay beyond guessing, then so does dodgeing all the other instant stuff. Of course I don't think there should be a reward for any of this, I'm a boring centrist who thinks the status quo is fine in this case... but others do not, and I just want them to explain why.

I think the  significant enough reason to treat them differently is probably the fact instant cast skills are  only offensive   and using them is being punished once someone evades , and stealth + attack is both offensive and defensive (in case your attack misses).

So if one plays right they don’t really get punished for missing stealth attack, they can reposition/rotate away, top up their stealth and try again. I know in most games missed stealth attacks do not cause reveal, but I think in GW2 the amount of stealth thieves can access is a bit overturned. Hence some punishing mechanic seems in order, the 2 more seconds  or so of backstab cooldown may do the trick for newbie thieves, but the experienced ones surely know how to manage it without problem.

Now I may not be correct, but because of the current mechanic fighting thieves is the most boring aspect of competitive. You just need to watch them trying to poke you and escape all time and find the right moment to burst them down. Or something like that, anyway it is just not interractive and one sided.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Mik.3401

[Bazsi.2734]

8 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Do you even know my character names? Because I'm on warrior and guardian much more than thief. (I'm giving you a way out from your claim of seeing me in Conquest, so take it. The true answer on that makes you look bad.)

Nope, I do not waste braincells on storing useless info. There is only so many of them, and I keep losing them every day. I check accountnames before the match starts, especially in ranked. Trying to intimidate someone into backing off while you got nothing...  like a true thief main.

Which you of course aren't. LoL.

 

11 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Once again, you refuse to specifically touch the topic of Stealth Attacks, the main discussion. Keep trying to derail it with things nobody was talking about,  this necro'd thread was interesting back when it was made too. You strawmanned the initial conversation and now say I did. Funny. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You misused this informal fallacy for the third time. If you didn't, what's the distorted, false version of OP-s suggestion that I came up with? If you're not just gaslighting the forums for fun, you should be able to point to a comment. Citation please!
Also where did I say you strawmanned the original conversation? You refusing to react to any sentence that doesn't have "stealth attack" in it is just being counterproductive, but if I really said something so nOtSmARt, you can cite that too.
 

Ah yes, and my demand for these 2 citations are stealth attacks. So you cannot refuse them. This thread is all about stealth attacks. I'm expecting links. Otherwise the readers might just conclude that you're gaslighting us, to derail the convo about why missed stealth attacks SHOULDN'T reveal!

[GuriGashi.5617]

This post is still relevant

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

4 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

1. Most people acknowledge that instant cast things like Mantra of Distraction are horribly designed and don't have proper counterplay. 

 

You're referring to Mantra of pain perhaps? 

Interrupts need to be instant or at very least 1/4 in order to do their job. 

 

OT: agreed. This is the only mmo in  existence in which stealth doesn't have a trade off. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Bazsi.2734]

53 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

This is the only mmo in  existence in which stealth doesn't have a trade off. 

I'd suggest being unable to contest capture points in a gamemode that's about contesting said points is a tradeoff.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

How about leave stealth as is and give every class multiple sources of reveal? Because anet would probably mess up any change to it then leave it untouched for like 4 years.