Scourge. The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

[Ryouzanpaku.1273]

The Good: idea. By far the best specialization idea in PoF. Completely changing the way necro is played and finding a way to do so without need to change all shroud related traits.The Bad: execution. Terrible work of testers when game got released with mechanics no one was able to tell if these are intended or not. Bad tooltips - if community has to guess what is mechanic and what is bug it is soo wrong.The Ugly: Lack of communication & AN reaction. After several weeks of zero response came sledgehammer instead of incremental changes to fix and balance things.

Result is: necro players feels betrayed again. And no one can blame them - AN is acting as if necro is red headed step child and issues with him are handed in absolutely pathetic way.

[Draco.9480]

scourge condi was the only build they could shine in pve and now what. lowest power in all spec compared to all the classes. lowest condi from all specs to all the classes. useless support which are barriers that decay after 2 seconds and no one cares about necro support since necro was suppsoe to be a damage dealer and not support. no blast finishers from weapons nor mobility or any reflect or anything useful. while there are weavers that do 47k dps and are needed almost everywhere. it took 5 years and still didn't balance anything. i shined in my guild with my scourge for 2 weeks and then boom. why aren't others are fixed? why so much power creep on other classes. why weaver is so strong compared to others? why destroying the class completely and don't give anything in return or fix others? anet trolled necros from 2012 till now and will still troll necros and send 'em to the graveyard to play alone with their zombies. now no one wants 'em in hardcore content anymore.

[Lahmia.2193]

This seems to be a running theme with Necro elite specs. When HoT was announced and the specs revealed, Reaper was by far the most hyped. On release it was incredibly powerful, but was soon nerfed to the point in which it was a pale ghost of its former self. Now we have Scourge which is going the same way.

[obcan.1470]

@Draco.9480 said:scourge condi was the only build they could shine in pve and now what. lowest power in all spec compared to all the classes. lowest condi from all specs to all the classes. useless support which are barriers that decay after 2 seconds and no one cares about necro support since necro was suppsoe to be a damage dealer and not support. no blast finishers from weapons nor mobility or any reflect or anything useful. while there are weavers that do 47k dps and are needed almost everywhere. it took 5 years and still didn't balance anything. i shined in my guild with my scourge for 2 weeks and then boom. why aren't others are fixed? why so much power creep on other classes. why weaver is so strong compared to others? why destroying the class completely and don't give anything in return or fix others? anet trolled necros from 2012 till now and will still troll necros and send 'em to the graveyard to play alone with their zombies. now no one wants 'em in hardcore content anymore.

The thing with weaver, people who dont play it dont realize, is that 47k dps is 247th try where meteor shower, ice storm, lightning storm hit majority of their hits. Meteors shower can deal between 100k to 200k damage alone but realisticly you are going to hit 130-160k most of the time. Ice storm and lightning storm tend to hit targets more frequently since radius of the spell is a lot smaller but they still can miss. Realisticly you are looking at around 43-45k dps on average. 43-45 k doesnt sound too bad to me since its only dps on big hit boxes. Furthemore whats your problem with necro being on the very end of the dps ladder? You do have one of the easier rotations, most defensive stats, and short cast times.

Also if you really feel betrayed by anet for fixing that shit in pvp then mate you really are worst kind of cunt. If you really want to feel what betrayal looks like, ask engi mains. Only relevant pve build is old as game. And even then it sucks compared to even HoT specs. Necros shouldnt feel betrayed. You chose tankiest class in game dont expect good dps.

[Vitali.5039]

@obcan.1470 said:The thing with weaver, people who dont play it dont realize, is that 47k dps is 247th try where meteor shower, ice storm, lightning storm hit majority of their hits. Meteors shower can deal between 100k to 200k damage alone but realisticly you are going to hit 130-160k most of the time.They also should look at Frost Spirit proc and Glyph of Empowerment to gain the better dps from the skill

@obcan.1470 said:Also if you really feel betrayed by anet for fixing that kitten in pvp then mate you really are worst kind of kitten.I don't see PvP complaints here

@obcan.1470 said:Necros shouldnt feel betrayed. You chose tankiest class in game dont expect good dps.This is bullshit, tankiness should come from specific traitlines, skills and major traits, not from the profession alone.Should we talk about "facetanking" vs damage avoided from other classes? High HP value =\= tanky and rely on %dmg reduction is only good vs mobs.

[Maunzi.3764]

@obcan.1470 said:The thing with weaver, people who dont play it dont realize, is that 47k dps is 247th try where meteor shower, ice storm, lightning storm hit majority of their hits.

This is strange. The moment Scourge does high on the meters in very limited fights with conditions that are very rarely met, everyone screams for nerfs.If weaver does it, the same people fall over themselves to claim that no nerf is needed, its all fine and good.

Realisticly you are looking at around 43-45k dps on average. 43-45 k doesnt sound too bad to me since its only dps on big hit boxes.

... The selfishness of weavers continues to astound me. "Doing way more damage than Scourge is totally fine, because...because! But scourge needs to be nerfed to the ground for doing a lot less damage!"

This is utterly ridiculous.

Furthemore whats your problem with necro being on the very end of the dps ladder? You do have one of the easier rotations, most defensive stats, and short cast times.

This is the most ridiculous part. In real gameplay, weavers are more survivable than scourges due to active defenses, and that scourge rotation is "easy" is a false and flimsy claim. Essentially, you're saying weaver deserves to be completely OP because it's a weaver, while scourge can't do 5k less dps because necros aren't allowed to.

That's so two-faced, selfish and hypocritical that it's just astonishing.

Also if you really feel betrayed by anet for fixing that kitten in pvp

Nobody thinks the PVP nerfs were bad in PVP, only in PVE. But then you're the one defending why your spec gets to be far stronger than pre-nerf scourge while scourge isn't allowed to be even within 10k of that. Because apparently, weavers just have a right to be better than everyone else, and necros have no right to be good at all.

[obcan.1470]

This is strange. The moment Scourge does high on the meters in very limited fights with conditions that are very rarely met, everyone screams for nerfs.If weaver does it, the same people fall over themselves to claim that no nerf is needed, its all fine and good.

So Weaver needs static BIG target that doesnt cast any interrupts or instakill spells because try dodging while casting meteor shower glyph of storms or ice storm and tell me that your dps didnt change.

... The selfishness of weavers continues to astound me. "Doing way more damage than Scourge is totally fine, because...because! But scourge needs to be nerfed to the ground for doing a lot less damage!"

Doing way more damage than scourge is totaly fine and should be fine for folowing classes : Elementalist, Thief, Guardian, ENGINEER ESPECIALLY. Every single of those classes has some kix, Ele has half its hp and rotation incomparably harder, Thief has half its hp, Guard has half its hp, Engineer has 75% of its hp and even harder rotation than Weaver. If Scourge stayed way it was, why would you pick engi? for cc maybe or group buff yes, why guard? No CC at all less defense and no relevant group support in meta groups, why thief? Thief has nothing at all that would overvalue Necro.

This is utterly ridiculous.

Yes it is.

This is the most ridiculous part. In real gameplay, weavers are more survivable than scourges due to active defenses, and that scourge rotation is "easy" is a false and flimsy claim. Essentially, you're saying weaver deserves to be completely OP because it's a weaver, while scourge can't do 5k less dps because necros aren't allowed to.

Now this kills me man. What active defenses are you talking about? 400 barrier for dual spells? Air trait : tempest defense? 150 protection for swapping to earth perhaps? Are you sure that you dont mean Tempest here? Because tempest had lower dps than scourge. Also yes I am totally saying that class with no support capabilities, no reliable CC long cast times Hit box dependancy, lowest defense stats in whole game should absolutely deal most dps. If any other class could outdps or even match elementalists, why would you play elementalists?

That's so two-faced, selfish and hypocritical that it's just astonishing.

Nobody thinks the PVP nerfs were bad in PVP, only in PVE. But then you're the one defending why your spec gets to be far stronger than pre-nerf scourge while scourge isn't allowed to be even within 10k of that. Because apparently, weavers just have a right to be better than everyone else, and necros have no right to be good at all.

I have no issue with necros being 9K behind elementalists. I have issue with any other class being lower than necro.

[Axl.8924]

@obcan.1470 said:

I have no issue with necros being 9K behind elementalists. I have issue with any other class being lower than necro.

Wow dude you are a biased hater of necros, just WOW.Could you be anymore biased?

Scourge sacrificed all its tankyness and it lacks having enough support to be considered a support, as it was focused on dps and they lost that.

[obcan.1470]

Wow dude you are a biased hater of necros, just WOW.Could you be anymore biased?

Yes I am, I hate necros because it is a class that is generally atractive to people who refuse to try new things for sake of their own group. I saw dozens of necro mains not being capable of playing anything else than necro, deal shit dps, not because necro has shit dps by design, I am talking chronomancer lvl of dps, and I know one single necro main that was capable of playing necro good. And this person still rather plays Dragon hunter over necro because even though she loves necro, she realizes that balance system simply doesnt allow necros to be good dps. You are all missing the point in 9 classes of guildwars. If necro was good dps, for example as good as elementalist, why would you pick anything else? Every single dps class would simply be worse necro. Necro has a lot of hard cc has higher tankyness than any other class by design and dont tell me necro doesnt have blasts because as long as CPS is meta blasts are irrelevant.

Scourge sacrificed all its tankyness and it lacks having enough support to be considered a support, as it was focused on dps and they lost that.

Scourge still has 19K hp as base, has access to instant barrier. Only class that comes even close to that kind of defensive stats is Warrior. Revenant less hp, Guard half hp, Ranger 75% of hp, Engineer 75% of hp, Thief half of its hp, Mesmer 75% of its hp ,Elementalist half of its hp. Any blow that almost kills necro kills every single one of those classes except maybe for revenant with his hammers up, mesmer distorting and guards aegis up. When all other classes dont have any staminna left for dodge what do they do? Heal cant save them, they cant swap to more defense in that given moment. Necro in that situation still has access to barrier. Tell me that this design isnt inherently more defensive than others. Devs said scourge is supposed to be support in official forum post and thats what they missed, not dps.

[Dadnir.5038]

@obcan Maybe you don't know it but:

• Scourge dps depended on shades which are static and have a shorter radius than weaver's dps skills. If it's ok for weaver to do 45k dps because it can only be done on static large foe then it should be ok for a scourge to do the same on a static foe. Come on even shatterstone have a larger radius than shades.

• You also say that it's ok for weaver/elementalist to do more damage because they have a lower amount of life (lol), Scourge have a lower amount of defense, dodge, block, protection, health sustain than the profession you talk about (hell even thieve can potentially put a scourge to shame with health sustain. The necromancer naturally sacrifice a lot for for health why wouldn't he have the right to deal some damage?

• And no, at the moment tempest easily outdps a glassy scourge. Should I recall you that tempest still sit at 37k DPS on large hitbox and 35k DPS on small hitbox? And, man, what a hard rotation, stay attuned to fire and smash all skills on cooldown.

• Maunzi said it "it's ridiculous".

@obcan.1470 said:I have no issue with necros being 9K behind elementalists. I have issue with any other class being lower than necro.

Wut? Honnestly, for this kind of comment it would probably be legit to report you for "trolling" or looking for a verbal fight. That pure discrimination written on the discriminated turf.

A game should aim for balance between each of it's professions. Ideally there should be no max dps difference between each of the professions. The same goes for defense. You say that necromancer don't have a complicated rotation? The necromancer's dps rotation is as hard as the elementalist dps rotation, just necromancer have less skill to smash and stay longer auto attacking while waiting for their cool down to end. Playing elementalist in PvE is not harder than playing a necromancer, don't delude yourself.

[Axl.8924]

@obcan.1470 said:

Wow dude you are a biased hater of necros, just WOW.Could you be anymore biased?

Yes I am, I hate necros because it is a class that is generally atractive to people who refuse to try new things for sake of their own group. I saw dozens of necro mains not being capable of playing anything else than necro, deal kitten dps, not because necro has kitten dps by design, I am talking chronomancer lvl of dps, and I know one single necro main that was capable of playing necro good. And this person still rather plays Dragon hunter over necro because even though she loves necro, she realizes that balance system simply doesnt allow necros to be good dps. You are all missing the point in 9 classes of guildwars. If necro was good dps, for example as good as elementalist, why would you pick anything else? Every single dps class would simply be worse necro. Necro has a lot of hard cc has higher tankyness than any other class by design and dont tell me necro doesnt have blasts because as long as CPS is meta blasts are irrelevant.

Its one thing to say that you play multiple classes because you want to, its a total thing that a person that loves said class cannot play it because even though he loves it, it gets abused.You clearly are showing your biase.Did necros beat you in spvp and WVW? I actually played lots of classes, not just necro.I played before path of fire:Ele Mostly pve, ranger not as much as ele because i had to farm monk runed healing gear for druid and power wasn't that good, thief(Pvp only because he is level 39 or so) necro with reaper(Cause he was my main).I raided as a ele in the escort, and i spent time practicing so yes i play multiples, but to say someone shouldn't main a class is silly thing to say.Thats like telling someone they are wrong for loving some indie niche game and should play the popular games like call fo duty.Also:The reason its that way is because of "Poor balancing" Why should a small group of classes dominate raids? why can't necros be viable? in World of Warcraft all classes are viable in raids, and quite a few are viable for arenas, to me it just makes no sense.Necro also lost that tankiness, as they don't have the massive shroud from reaper mode anymore, and the barriers disappear in 2 seconds.As for competitive vs cps:Well warriors have banners and stuff like that, and necro doesn't have nearly as much stuff to compete as a class that is a support class "yet".We will have to wait and see if scourge gets buffed in utility.Even people were commenting the issues being that core necro is seriously lacking and needs buffed.I have noticed that when i got heart of thorns, the elite specialization was superior in every way, and that doesn't help.I'm not sure about mesmers if they suffer a lot from the specialization being the go to, but i know that at least with rangers, the new specializion added healing and buffing, giving them a totally new way to play that makes them desired, and to me:That is a good way to balance.I really wish Anet would balance all of necros core builds.

Scourge sacrificed all its tankyness and it lacks having enough support to be considered a support, as it was focused on dps and they lost that.

Scourge still has 19K hp as base, has access to instant barrier. Only class that comes even close to that kind of defensive stats is Warrior. Revenant less hp, Guard half hp, Ranger 75% of hp, Engineer 75% of hp, Thief half of its hp, Mesmer 75% of its hp ,Elementalist half of its hp. Any blow that almost kills necro kills every single one of those classes except maybe for revenant with his hammers up, mesmer distorting and guards aegis up. When all other classes dont have any staminna left for dodge what do they do? Heal cant save them, they cant swap to more defense in that given moment. Necro in that situation still has access to barrier. Tell me that this design isnt inherently more defensive than others. Devs said scourge is supposed to be support in official forum post and thats what they missed, not dps.

Revs have way more utility.Revs have resistance effect aoe effect of mobility aoe effects of strength etc.Revs are really good supporters.Also guardian has 10 times as much utility as well, and does good dps and has utility.Engineer i don't know about their dps.Holosmith seems pretty strong, and they have way massive utility that is way awesome.Mesmers are basically immortal gods in spvp and they are extremely desired for raids and stacked, along with guardians and eles, and warriors are also stacked.

Also:Necro lacks enough utlity to be a support class, and enough dps to be a dps class.Only niche area where reaper necros are useful, is aoe dps, which eles can also do and better, and that is because of epi and our aoe staff attacks, but you could just take a bunch of eles with meteor and tornato and destroy enemies.Besides:Eles can go air for single target or fire for aoes.

In world of warcraft classes are nerfed to be middle of the group and others are buffed to be around that area.1 or 2k difference i think isn't too bad, but 10+k difference between dps classes is massive, and enough to be discouraged to be taken.

[Junkpile.7439]

My trailblazer scourge is top DPS in PvE. Other people need to run back whole time while i facetank legendaries.

[nekretaal.6485]

It's not the best specialization in PoF.

Death Shroud got replaced with turrets. These turrets have no visual tell when they are activating and can't be killed. There's no counter play available to them. Anet can't be expected to put decent damage on these without justifiable outrage from the pvp community. Yet, at the same time, the class is a sitting duck against anybody with a ranged weapon. It also has no counterplay.

The class wasn't well designed.

If a Death shroud was going to be sacrificed, it should have been sacrificed for superpowered versions of Guardian virtues: a movement leap, a block, a fear, and a DPS skill.

[obcan.1470]

Okay let me put it this way. Imagine that with current stats, base hp, armor values, all classes dealt same dps. Every single class across the board dealt same dps. I am going to ignore elementalists and necros from this point on because I love one and hate the other.

I will pick engineer and warrior. Classes with comparable defense stats, engi having better heal warrior having better base values (hp and armor). If you compare warriors rotation complexity to engineers, not only engineer has to put a lot more effort to remembering the right sequence(which i dont really consider a skill because that thing takes few hours on kitty golem), playing engineer is also physically more difficult. Strain on wrists is actual problem. Warrior doesnt suffer such a thing, rotation is simpler and much more intuitive. Not only that lets not forget that majority of engis dps comes from things like grenade kit, melee based spells and a lot of ground targeted spells.If you ignore this factor and move on other parts of this game such as boss mechanics.

Break bars. Engineer has access to stronger CC that doesnt lock him out by self stun, but it is again significantly harder to perform and if we are talking about dps warrior(not cps because giving cps same dps as engi would be ridiculous just like scourge) self stun doesnt occur anymore.

Wipe abilities. When boss casts wipe ability it is important to dodge. Engineer has access to vigor through trait which gives him slight bonus for this.

CC. Now this is my main concerns with necros vs other classes. When condi based class such as condi warrior, condi thief, condi necromancer gets CCied, they dont suffer as much as zerkers do. Engineer oddly enough has same issue and I will explain why. When warrior uses his main dps spells that it torch 4 rage f1 outrage and shattering blow, when they get stunned after that moment, not much changes. Your dps rotation from that moment is simply auto attacking. Your main dps spells are on cooldown anyway. When ANY zerk class and engi get stunned, they cant continue on dealing dps. Generally zerk classes have lower cooldowns and strong autottacks, engi has virtually no cooldowns because of number of spells he can still throw in. Because of that I say engi has much harder time keeping up with warrior after CC.

Interrupts. Both classes have fairly short cast times so chances for any interrupts hindering their dps is insignificant.

If you also ignore this part lets talk about self sustain. Self sustain isnt only self heal it is also access to stun breaks,CC cleanse, mobility and defensive buffs. Engineer as I said has "better" heal, because it is not based on damage that he can deal while warriors heal is essential part of his dps rotation which can in some casses overperform or underperform. Engineer has more reliable heal no doubt about that. But then what about stun breaks? None, CC cleanse? only on heal. Mobility? None. Defensive buffs? both none.

In my eyes and so should in yours should be quite obvious that engineer is harder to play, learn and perform and thus should be rewarded more. Except in this scenario he isnt. So give me reason to play engineer at this point. This is why your perfect balance cant work unless they change how base stats work. If necro wants to deal same dps as engineer, I want 19k hp on engineer and utility spells with 20+ second cooldowns so I dont have to deal with carpall tunnel.

[Lahmia.2193]

Then we have Warrior. Provides very competitive dps, 19k hp, 25 might to allies, banner and ea buffs, easy rotation. But I guess Obcan doesn't have a problem with it because its not Necro.

[Maunzi.3764]

@obcan.1470 said:I have no issue with necros being 9K behind elementalists. I have issue with any other class being lower than necro.

Thank you for displaying your two-faced hypocrisy this blatantly. I could not have created a better example.

@Devs: This is what Necro players have to deal with on a constant basis due to the past balancing. People like obcan are at a point where they feel that they deserve to be better than Necros just due to their class choice.

You can see it right there: The current balance created a situation where people think Necro being this far behind every other class is the right situation, and Necros being on par is wrong.

[obcan.1470]

Its one thing to say that you play multiple classes because you want to, its a total thing that a person that loves said class cannot play it because even though he loves it, it gets abused.You clearly are showing your biase.Did necros beat you in spvp and WVW? I actually played lots of classes, not just necro.I played before path of fire:Ele Mostly pve, ranger not as much as ele because i had to farm monk runed healing gear for druid and power wasn't that good, thief(Pvp only because he is level 39 or so) necro with reaper(Cause he was my main).I raided as a ele in the escort, and i spent time practicing so yes i play multiples, but to say someone shouldn't main a class is silly thing to say.Thats like telling someone they are wrong for loving some indie niche game and should play the popular games like call fo duty.Also:The reason its that way is because of "Poor balancing" Why should a small group of classes dominate raids? why can't necros be viable? in World of Warcraft all classes are viable in raids, and quite a few are viable for arenas, to me it just makes no sense.Necro also lost that tankiness, as they don't have the massive shroud from reaper mode anymore, and the barriers disappear in 2 seconds.As for competitive vs cps:Well warriors have banners and stuff like that, and necro doesn't have nearly as much stuff to compete as a class that is a support class "yet".We will have to wait and see if scourge gets buffed in utility.Even people were commenting the issues being that core necro is seriously lacking and needs buffed.I have noticed that when i got heart of thorns, the elite specialization was superior in every way, and that doesn't help.I'm not sure about mesmers if they suffer a lot from the specialization being the go to, but i know that at least with rangers, the new specializion added healing and buffing, giving them a totally new way to play that makes them desired, and to me:That is a good way to balance.I really wish Anet would balance all of necros core builds.

I really dont care about your skill or your way of playing the game. You play more classes than all races of necros? Cool, more power to you. I am talking about general necro main. Tell me that I am wrong when I say most of the necros refuse to even learn their own class with help of qtfy. Tell me that I am wrong when I say that necro mains are going to scream to map chat how they cant get to raid because they should play other class. Also there wasnt 10k difference. There was 8k difference, and thats when I am so optimistic to say that Meteor shower ice storm and glyph of storms would hit EVERY, SINGLE, TIME. Do you even know how many hours I have spent in aerodrome to hit 46k single time? 27 hours of pure time grinding that rotation. When you hit 47k on kitty as weaver go buy ticket to lotto. Or rather go shower because you probably spent more time in aerodrome than any human being should.

Also this isnt world of warcraft. You dont have to play 2000 hours per class to get meta gear. Meta gear after first full set is question of maybe 2 weeks if you hate yourself. You can by all means have main. But seriously dont expect to play necro all the fucking time. And dont expect to play necro at all when you want to be best dps. Because that is never going to happen. Because of design and because of community. Noone likes necros, deal with it.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Lahmia.2193 said:Then we have Warrior. Provides very competitive dps, 19k hp, 25 might to allies, banner and ea buffs, easy rotation. But I guess Obcan doesn't have a problem with it because its not Necro.

That must be it...

No the real issue is that he want complexity to be rewarding and think that the necromancer don't have any complexity. He don't even understand that in the game, the top spec don't necessarily use complex rotation. Most of all he deem the necromancer as the most bland profession to use.

It's a typical case of someone that never played the profession in depth, that never touch the (very easy to touch) limits of the necromancer.

Honestly, maining a profession should be something done after having thoroughly played all professions to discover each weakness and strength. Nobody should go and complain about another profession if they haven't done at least that.

[obcan.1470]

@Maunzi.3764 said:

Thank you for displaying your two-faced hypocrisy this blatantly. I could not have created a better example.

I dont understand your point?

@Devs: This is what Necro players have to deal with on a constant basis due to the past balancing. People like obcan are at a point where they feel that they deserve to be better than Necros just due to their class choice.

People absolutely should feel they deserve to be better than necros just due to class choice. Its the class design. As I said, if necro wants to be top dps, I want 19k hp.

You can see it right there: The current balance created a situation where people think Necro being this far behind every other class is the right situation, and Necros being on par is wrong.

But necro wasnt on par. Necro was top dps on small targets. If you think that engineer should be lower than necro, then I dont want to talk to you. Also when condi reaper did 32k dps you guy still werent happy. I think that necro being just but higher than CPS is the most balanced place for necro.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

Your minions are also ugly, talk about a face only a mother could love. :lol:

[Axl.8924]

@obcan.1470 said:

Its one thing to say that you play multiple classes because you want to, its a total thing that a person that loves said class cannot play it because even though he loves it, it gets abused.You clearly are showing your biase.Did necros beat you in spvp and WVW? I actually played lots of classes, not just necro.I played before path of fire:Ele Mostly pve, ranger not as much as ele because i had to farm monk runed healing gear for druid and power wasn't that good, thief(Pvp only because he is level 39 or so) necro with reaper(Cause he was my main).I raided as a ele in the escort, and i spent time practicing so yes i play multiples, but to say someone shouldn't main a class is silly thing to say.Thats like telling someone they are wrong for loving some indie niche game and should play the popular games like call fo duty.Also:The reason its that way is because of "Poor balancing" Why should a small group of classes dominate raids? why can't necros be viable? in World of Warcraft all classes are viable in raids, and quite a few are viable for arenas, to me it just makes no sense.Necro also lost that tankiness, as they don't have the massive shroud from reaper mode anymore, and the barriers disappear in 2 seconds.As for competitive vs cps:Well warriors have banners and stuff like that, and necro doesn't have nearly as much stuff to compete as a class that is a support class "yet".We will have to wait and see if scourge gets buffed in utility.Even people were commenting the issues being that core necro is seriously lacking and needs buffed.I have noticed that when i got heart of thorns, the elite specialization was superior in every way, and that doesn't help.I'm not sure about mesmers if they suffer a lot from the specialization being the go to, but i know that at least with rangers, the new specializion added healing and buffing, giving them a totally new way to play that makes them desired, and to me:That is a good way to balance.I really wish Anet would balance all of necros core builds.

I really dont care about your skill or your way of playing the game. You play more classes than all races of necros? Cool, more power to you. I am talking about general necro main. Tell me that I am wrong when I say most of the necros refuse to even learn their own class with help of qtfy. Tell me that I am wrong when I say that necro mains are going to scream to map chat how they cant get to raid because they should play other class. Also there wasnt 10k difference. There was 8k difference, and thats when I am so optimistic to say that Meteor shower ice storm and glyph of storms would hit EVERY, SINGLE, TIME. Do you even know how many hours I have spent in aerodrome to hit 46k single time? 27 hours of pure time grinding that rotation. When you hit 47k on kitty as weaver go buy ticket to lotto. Or rather go shower because you probably spent more time in aerodrome than any human being should.

As it so happens, the day before the escort i spent hours in the golem working on my dps on my ele, and necro.I don't know how many people do that, i imagine everyone.I think your wrong, and i think those that are practicing for raids are preparing themselves, but we are in a niche area and we are limited to that, which prevents us from being really desired for most raids.THAT IS NOT GOOD!! I don't care if you love engi, fine love your engi, but its no excuse to leave necros in the dust.Yes complexity should have rewards, but by how much? also:There is a issue that a class with weak dps and weak support SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST SOMETHING VIABLE FOR RAIDS!!! there is no ifs or buts.How would you like it if holosmith was trashed and all of engi tomorrow was trashed and you coudln't raid? wouldn't you be mad after putting so much time to be told that you chose the wrong class? and yes i realize that engis suffer in spvp far more than necro, but i never in my life made fun of them or anything.Have some symphathy.Also yes necromancer does have its complexities, especially pvp.Don't expect for an example a newbie necro to be able to raid right away without learning where everything is.

Also this isnt world of warcraft. You dont have to play 2000 hours per class to get meta gear. Meta gear after first full set is question of maybe 2 weeks if you hate yourself. You can by all means have main. But seriously dont expect to play necro all the kitten time. And dont expect to play necro at all when you want to be best dps. Because that is never going to happen. Because of design and because of community. Noone likes necros, deal with it.

Actually, i think getting gear is probably easier in wow, as getting ascended gear takes a bit if you don't have a character with full gear already, simply because its random in fractals.

I guess you really hate necros wow

[Lahmia.2193]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:Then we have Warrior. Provides very competitive dps, 19k hp, 25 might to allies, banner and ea buffs, easy rotation. But I guess Obcan doesn't have a problem with it because its not Necro.

That must be it...

No the real issue is that he want complexity to be rewarding and think that the necromancer don't have any complexity. He don't even understand that in the game, the top spec don't necessarily use complex rotation. Most of all he deem the necromancer as the most bland profession to use.

It's a typical case of someone that never played the profession in depth, that never touch the (very easy to touch) limits of the necromancer.

Honestly, maining a profession should be something done after having thoroughly played all professions to discover each weakness and strength. Nobody should go and complain about another profession if they haven't done at least that.

Yup. Warrior ain't complex at all yet it boasts high dps and some of the best support in game. Anyone that sees this as fine is just ignorant.

[Dadnir.5038]

@obcan.1470 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:

Thank you for displaying your two-faced hypocrisy this blatantly. I could not have created a better example.

I dont understand your point?

@Devs: This is what Necro players have to deal with on a constant basis due to the past balancing. People like obcan are at a point where they feel that they

deserve

to be better than Necros just due to their class choice.

People absolutely should feel they deserve to be better than necros just due to class choice. Its the class design. As I said, if necro wants to be top dps, I want 19k hp.

You can see it right there: The current balance created a situation where people think Necro being this far behind every other class is the right situation, and Necros being on par is wrong.

But necro wasnt on par. Necro was top dps on small targets. If you think that engineer should be lower than necro, then I dont want to talk to you. Also when condi reaper did 32k dps you guy still werent happy. I think that necro being just but higher than CPS is the most balanced place for necro.

Nobody think that engi should be lower than necromancer, however, engi got very unique buff that can easily help all it's teammate that play condition build.

Now, we've seen you complain about the fact that it's hard to reach 47k as a weaver when a necro also struggle (yes struggle) to reach 32k. Does health point have anything to do with that? No.

You think that cPS doing the same damage as a scourge while giving 25 might, EA and banner is fair, balanced? Why? Is it because you have the illusion that scourge provide some support? You are aware that while you are struggling to reach 46k with your elementalist you naturally spit some support right? The support that the scourge provide is as valuable for a group than the support an elementalist provide while doing it's top dps rotation. And well... there is a 15k dps difference between the 2.

You can put it in every way you want, it is not "fair". Is the fact that condi tempest easily out dps condi reaper (which is at the moment our top dps spec) fair? I don't think so, after all, tempest is a "support" spec ain't it? Your whole logic is flawed and biased.

[Substatic.6958]

@obcan.1470 said:

@Draco.9480 said:scourge condi was the only build they could shine in pve and now what. lowest power in all spec compared to all the classes. lowest condi from all specs to all the classes. useless support which are barriers that decay after 2 seconds and no one cares about necro support since necro was suppsoe to be a damage dealer and not support. no blast finishers from weapons nor mobility or any reflect or anything useful. while there are weavers that do 47k dps and are needed almost everywhere. it took 5 years and still didn't balance anything. i shined in my guild with my scourge for 2 weeks and then boom. why aren't others are fixed? why so much power creep on other classes. why weaver is so strong compared to others? why destroying the class completely and don't give anything in return or fix others? anet trolled necros from 2012 till now and will still troll necros and send 'em to the graveyard to play alone with their zombies. now no one wants 'em in hardcore content anymore.

The thing with weaver, people who dont play it dont realize, is that 47k dps is 247th try where meteor shower, ice storm, lightning storm hit majority of their hits. Meteors shower can deal between 100k to 200k damage alone but realisticly you are going to hit 130-160k most of the time. Ice storm and lightning storm tend to hit targets more frequently since radius of the spell is a lot smaller but they still can miss. Realisticly you are looking at around 43-45k dps on average. 43-45 k doesnt sound too bad to me since its only dps on big hit boxes. Furthemore whats your problem with necro being on the very end of the dps ladder? You do have one of the easier rotations, most defensive stats, and short cast times.

Also if you really feel betrayed by anet for fixing that kitten in pvp then mate you really are worst kind of kitten. If you really want to feel what betrayal looks like, ask engi mains. Only relevant pve build is old as game. And even then it sucks compared to even HoT specs. Necros shouldnt feel betrayed. You chose tankiest class in game dont expect good dps.

Wow, this is bad.

1. Condi Tempest and Weaver have easy/realistic rotations and do 36-38k dps. Same goes for Firebrand, Soulbeast, and Renegade. Some of these provide far more support. Your argument is pure fiction.
2. Scourge is not the tankiest class in the game, or tanky at all. Why is their DPS so low?

I'm starting to think the "fans" might be the reason for GW2 having the worst balance and spec variety among the top played MMOs, and not just Arenanet.

@obcan.1470 said:And dont expect to play necro at all when you want to be best dps. Because that is never going to happen. Because of design and because of community. Noone likes necros, deal with it.

So you're admitting the balance of this game is beyond horrible?

[Dadnir.5038]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:Then we have Warrior. Provides very competitive dps, 19k hp, 25 might to allies, banner and ea buffs, easy rotation. But I guess Obcan doesn't have a problem with it because its not Necro.

That must be it...

No the real issue is that he want complexity to be rewarding and think that the necromancer don't have any complexity. He don't even understand that in the game, the top spec don't necessarily use complex rotation. Most of all he deem the necromancer as the most bland profession to use.

It's a typical case of someone that never played the profession in depth, that never touch the (very easy to touch) limits of the necromancer.

Honestly, maining a profession should be something done after having thoroughly played all professions to discover each weakness and strength. Nobody should go and complain about another profession if they haven't done at least that.

Yup. Warrior ain't complex at all yet it boasts high dps and some of the best support in game. Anyone that sees this as fine is just ignorant.

What's infuriating is that It's not just warrior. Some of the most efficient specs for PvE use simple rotations. Condi tempest and condi rangers are far from being hard to use, yet they have a good dps. Druid is not that hard to use either, you just have to maintain your spirits and reliably provide GotL... seriously... Condi thief? Dodge and auto attack in fire fields... wow... (I'm exagerating here). No, seriously, none of the top spec in PvE are hard to play, some are even boring to play. Obcan visibly never tried to achieve some dps with a necromancer, else he would know that reaching our low dps ceiling isn't that easy.