Stealth is totally fine - Offhand dagger only thief roaming

[Sobx.1758]

@"manu.7539" said:Any cooldown on this offhand dagger?!? And all these conditions so easily applied?!? WoW, well done ANET!

And which conditions are "not easly applied"? What kind of pseudo-complaint is this? :lol: Well done with the insightful post!

@aiinseinn.5914 said:i do not want to discuss .. i want the build

...and I want your uncut consecutive replay from your gameplay with it, pls :D (based on a fact you're actually asking for a build here)

[Exzen.2976]

@"aiinseinn.5914" said:i do not want to discuss .. i want the build

Haha, enjoy xD

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaQAilNwCZbsMGJOMParTA-zVRYBRCHoYQfDR7Ew0FIgJwbR/ZA-w

[Shroud.2307]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Ah, yes, i can haz reveal as ele or reaper. I am obviously doing something wrong.

Let me quote a classic:"Just dodge lol" or "Use LoS lol" or "Use stealth traps lol".

Can't balance everything around 1v1's in a game that encourages team play.Some things will have hard counters, there's no reason to feel bad about losing to something that has a significant mechanical advantage(s) over you. It just means you need to use things that aren't bound to class mechanics like; terrain, mind games, or even getting creative like throwing a Blueprint on a Thief Black Powder field so they reveal themselves.

It's not that I think Stealth is perfectly fine, or that ANet can't give every class flexible tools. I just think 1v1's are irrelevant in the face of balance.And if it's about team fights then again I refer to using things outside your class mechanics. You're in a 5vX and a Thief is focusing you, but you have no way to Reveal them? Start hopping around terrain, no port spots, staying near teammates, etc. If you had a Reveal it probably wouldn't turn the fight anyway, and if it had 100% chance to it would be pretty unfair for a Thief if every class had a guaranteed press X to smoosh Thief button.

Also I want to cite that I say this from the perspective of someone who often floats around alone on zerk core Necro. I'm about as vulnerable as it gets next to maybe a zerk staff Ele.

[Cynz.9437]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Exzen.2976 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:Enemy being outnumebered.Not a single of them had reveal skill (unless i missed it).Where are revealed debuffs from guards?Enemy thief not using blind - why?Enemies backpedaling - god please let it rain brains.Instead of dropping aoe they just run like rabbits.

I kill people on core thief wearing green gear on my alt account because truth a lot of players in wvw are

• geared for zerg
• have no idea how to play vs other players (i bring mah fractal build it will work guize, 4k UFE yooo)

Not all classes have access to revealed and even when they do, not all builds run it (most do not). Even when they do, I can port away, Dagger storm, dodge etc until it runs out.

Revealed debuffs from guards are annoying... but you can just avoid sentries etc on thief... they’re in set places.

Yes, the enemy thief should have used blinds etc and stacked more stealth (stealth ftw?). Was just a fun clip - d/p thief should normally counter this.

When enemies did drop aoe, I just waited it out in stealth and didn’t stand in them.

Can’t blame them for running when they are fighting something they can’t see.

Killing people using greens on core thief just again highlights how strong/safe thief is. Try winning fight using green gear on something like a war or ele.

But yes, plenty of zerg builds around, plenty of players who don’t mechanically know how to use their class in pvp settings.

If you don't have reveal as rev or ranger as roamer you are doing something wrong. Same as i bring condi cleanse as thief because i just can't outheal condis same should apply to other classes to bring reveal if they want to fight roamers (btw thief is not only class utilizing stealth in wvw). You used elite for reveal? Great, now it is on CD while for example ranger or rev has it on low cd. Also, slb and rev can port to you just as easy. Warrior can use leaps and gap closers. Just to name few.

Stealth from guard: your tactic/build would crumble in those areas, just pointing out for anyone who screams bloody murder.

Well you said it yourself, d/p counters your build -> no cnd -> no dmg. BP and shadow shot would provide higher value vs you than stealth. Blocks also completely ruin d/d that is why nobody uses it.

You can't just wait out AoE in stealth, rev sword 2 would force you into defensive at least. Or if we stay by thief, cluster bomb would do that as well.

Once again, just running in straight line is rather pointless.

I am just saying that it would be wrong to add this video to balance discussion (because people surely will). And yes, you can do the same with other classes if you build for it and face similar kind of players.

Ah, yes, i can haz reveal as ele or reaper. I am obviously doing something wrong.

• camp marks/wells/shades, play scourge, have pets on him (pets actually work really well vs cnd because for some reason game tends to land cnd/bs on pets instead of actual target, i even had my character turn around to around to hit a pet even though i was facing and targeting necro)... honestly, plenty of way to deal with him... and no, you are not supposed to win 1v1 vs any class
• as ele use blocks, stuns, outheal, aoe... you don't need reveal really. Reveal is just an option. The classes he faced did have access to reveal - they chose not to use it.

OP posted the build, i want everyone who thinks this is OP go roll it and post actual footage (not compilation) of your success with it in wvw, preferably vs non-uplevels.

[kash.9213]

@"Shroud.2307" said:I don't know why people are complaining about this, lol.

Thief has an Initiative system, this is why it can kill with only an offhand weapon- it doesn't depend on a recharge. I'm sure other professions could at least manage to be dangerous with only an offhand weapon if built right, but I don't know about killing anything (maybe with the exception of Engineer because of Kits). So comparing this to other professions, which some people are doing here, isn't a fair way to measure what should be possible.

I mean this has to be the dumbest thing I've read here in a good while

Evade, evade, thousands of boons, evade, stealth, evade, stealth, stealth, stealth, evade, boons, evade, stealth, stealth......with just an offhand weapon.

But mirage loses a dodge because it dared to evade something.

Hilarious.

Back to the video though...I know a couple Thieves that play S/D and do pretty much the same thing as in the video. They only really use Sword for the porting around, but do the majority of their damage with CnD. It's kind of cool to see it tbh, because it works quite effectively. They don't have to manage resources as much as you would playing S/D "normally", and they can still kill pretty quickly.I don't think that's broken or bad at all, it's just a different way to play it that will be more effective against some things than others.

I was also thinking that playing with only offhand Dagger is a good way to condition yourself to consistently land CnD because it can be tricky for beginners. Doing this would really etch the muscle memory in to your brain.

CnD is hard hitting enough but it feels very intuitive or natural to use and that helps when combining it with other skills like Steal. Think of it like the samurai quick draw with their sword, in one fluid motion you can carry yourself in with a port to quickly land CnD, and still in the same breath followed by a Tactical Strike for a possible Interrupt and whatever else can fit into that motion without derailing it. So you get the damage and whatever secondary modifiers from interrupts and whatever else, all visually within the same action but there's actually a lot going on there. It's kind like combining and carrying a dodge or Bound over a distance with Shortbow 5 or anything like that.

Cloak and Dagger also has the best track record for me for finding people in stealth. Because it's so intuitive you can swing on instinct and usually tag them, but you might not be able to orient yourself to land a Stealth Attack correctly if they stacked stealth a bit.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Naxos.2503 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:Evade, evade, thousands of boons, evade, stealth, evade, stealth, stealth, stealth, evade, boons, evade, stealth, stealth......with just an offhand weapon.

But mirage loses a dodge because it dared to evade something.

Hilarious.

What u just wrote is what everyone experiences when they fight a mesmer in pvp.

Replace the Stealth with Block and you got yourself a warrior.

What that 25s CD shield stance is too much for you?

[manu.7539]

@"Sobx.1758" said:

And which conditions are "not easly applied"? What kind of pseudo-complaint is this? :lol: Well done with the insightful post!

Well, I had mostly the blinding in mind, its kind of easy fights when u can blind and stealth so often. But nvm, I'm waiting for ur usual pseudo-complaint following mine :p

btw, how do you so easily apply condis when ur almost constantly blinded? U tell me since ur so genious... lol

[manu.7539]

@"Sobx.1758" said:

Step one: understand what blind does in this game and then I'm sure you can come up with something and apply condis without much of a problem "lol"

Judging by the posts like yours in this thread, I'm really awaiting people to actually start running this op blind spamming, easy condi applying off-hand only broken wvw "build". :lol: Actually do it by yourself and post the results, just make sure it's not a cherry picked compilation but some actual uncut one-after-another fights outside of catching pve builds trying to cap a camp for a daily.

Did u just asked me to understand what blind mean in this game:? Haha, guess I'll let it go again. Ur still funny but I'll let u have fun with ur pve builds :p

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@"manu.7539" said:Any cooldown on this offhand dagger?!? And all these conditions so easily applied?!? WoW, well done ANET!

It's just vulnerability and blind traited. "All theres conditions"???

[Exzen.2976]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@"manu.7539" said:Any cooldown on this offhand dagger?!? And all these conditions so easily applied?!? WoW, well done ANET!

It's just vulnerability and blind traited. "All theres conditions"???

Tbf, also poison from leeching venoms and weakness from deadly arts.

[Exzen.2976]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@manu.7539 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Step one: understand what blind does in this game and then I'm sure you can come up with something and apply condis without much of a problem "lol"

Judging by the posts like yours in this thread, I'm really awaiting people to actually start running this op blind spamming, easy condi applying off-hand only broken wvw "build". :lol: Actually do it by yourself and post the results, just make sure it's not a cherry picked compilation but some actual uncut one-after-another fights outside of catching pve builds trying to cap a camp for a daily.

guess I'll let it go again. Ur still funny

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about right now.

but I'll let u have fun with ur pve builds :p

Ayyyy, good talk.Don't forget to get that OP BROKEN WVW BUILD and post the results, don't run from it now :)

Lol, I don’t think anyone thinks the build is op xD

However there is nothing stopping someone from throwing on a nice mainhand sword or dagger and a second weaponset and actually having an effective build. Even then, it would be very much hardcountered by d/p thief, which is more self sufficient at applying stealth and can keep up permastealth with no problem.

I’m more just highlighting that constant stealth application could use a review.

[Cynz.9437]

@Exzen.2976 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@manu.7539 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Step one: understand what blind does in this game and then I'm sure you can come up with something and apply condis without much of a problem "lol"

Judging by the posts like yours in this thread, I'm really awaiting people to actually start running this op blind spamming, easy condi applying off-hand only broken wvw "build". :lol: Actually do it by yourself and post the results, just make sure it's not a cherry picked compilation but some actual uncut one-after-another fights outside of catching pve builds trying to cap a camp for a daily.

guess I'll let it go again. Ur still funny

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about right now.

but I'll let u have fun with ur pve builds :p

Ayyyy, good talk.Don't forget to get that OP BROKEN WVW BUILD and post the results, don't run from it now :)

Lol, I don’t think anyone thinks the build is op xD

However there is nothing stopping someone from throwing on a nice mainhand sword or dagger and a second weaponset and actually having an effective build. Even then, it would be very much hardcountered by d/p thief, which is more self sufficient at applying stealth and can keep up permastealth with no problem.

I’m more just highlighting that constant stealth application could use a review.

What weapon skill did they use here? %D

[Exzen.2976]

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Exzen.2976 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@manu.7539 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Step one: understand what blind does in this game and then I'm sure you can come up with something and apply condis without much of a problem "lol"

Judging by the posts like yours in this thread, I'm really awaiting people to actually start running this op blind spamming, easy condi applying off-hand only broken wvw "build". :lol: Actually do it by yourself and post the results, just make sure it's not a cherry picked compilation but some actual uncut one-after-another fights outside of catching pve builds trying to cap a camp for a daily.

guess I'll let it go again. Ur still funny

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about right now.

but I'll let u have fun with ur pve builds :p

Ayyyy, good talk.Don't forget to get that OP BROKEN WVW BUILD and post the results, don't run from it now :)

Lol, I don’t think anyone thinks the build is op xD

However there is nothing stopping someone from throwing on a nice mainhand sword or dagger and a second weaponset and actually having an effective build. Even then, it would be very much hardcountered by d/p thief, which is more self sufficient at applying stealth and can keep up permastealth with no problem.

I’m more just highlighting that constant stealth application could use a review.

What weapon skill did they use here? %D

Haha, I’m also not saying it’s the only broken thing in WvW. Grenade barrage is also widely known to be completely busted! xD

[Sobx.1758]

@Exzen.2976 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@manu.7539 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Step one: understand what blind does in this game and then I'm sure you can come up with something and apply condis without much of a problem "lol"

Judging by the posts like yours in this thread, I'm really awaiting people to actually start running this op blind spamming, easy condi applying off-hand only broken wvw "build". :lol: Actually do it by yourself and post the results, just make sure it's not a cherry picked compilation but some actual uncut one-after-another fights outside of catching pve builds trying to cap a camp for a daily.

guess I'll let it go again. Ur still funny

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about right now.

but I'll let u have fun with ur pve builds :p

Ayyyy, good talk.Don't forget to get that OP BROKEN WVW BUILD and post the results, don't run from it now :)

Lol, I don’t think anyone thinks the build is op xD

Wait, did you read the complaints of the person I was responding to? And what about some of the people literally asking you for a build based on... this? :lol:

[Exzen.2976]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Exzen.2976 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@manu.7539 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Step one: understand what blind does in this game and then I'm sure you can come up with something and apply condis without much of a problem "lol"

Judging by the posts like yours in this thread, I'm really awaiting people to actually start running this op blind spamming, easy condi applying off-hand only broken wvw "build". :lol: Actually do it by yourself and post the results, just make sure it's not a cherry picked compilation but some actual uncut one-after-another fights outside of catching pve builds trying to cap a camp for a daily.

guess I'll let it go again. Ur still funny

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about right now.

but I'll let u have fun with ur pve builds :p

Ayyyy, good talk.Don't forget to get that OP BROKEN WVW BUILD and post the results, don't run from it now :)

Lol, I don’t think anyone thinks the build is op xD

Wait, did you read the complaints of the person I was responding to? And what about some of the people literally asking you for a build based on... this? :lol:

Haha, I figured it was tongue in cheek. xD

[lare.5129]

this is how I say "fake mode video"To check it I take only off-dager and try kill someone. 0 kills, many fails ..So I am sure we have find some skilled player who take mesmer with only focus, or elem with only dagger who kill any other class .. and say "oh, look, magic !!!"

[Exzen.2976]

@"lare.5129" said:this is how I say "fake mode video"To check it I take only off-dager and try kill someone. 0 kills, many fails ..So I am sure we have find some skilled player who take mesmer with only focus, or elem with only dagger who kill any other class .. and say "oh, look, magic !!!"

Ahh, science. Who can argue with science? Although I think the question on many people’s (perhaps just mine) minds here would be, how many kills and how many fails would you get on a normal meta build? You see, we need a control in order to draw comparisons! ;D

[lare.5129]

@Exzen.2976 said:

@"lare.5129" said:this is how I say "fake mode video"To check it I take only off-dager and try kill someone. 0 kills, many fails ..So I am sure we have find some skilled player who take mesmer with only focus, or elem with only dagger who kill any other class .. and say "oh, look, magic !!!"

Ahh, science. Who can argue with science? Although I think the question on many people’s (perhaps just mine) minds here would be, how many kills and how many fails would you get on a normal meta build? You see, we need a control in order to draw comparisons! ;Dno one know, it random. ir can be 1/10, 5/10. o may be 0 from 20 .. So I not see nice boost on thief, compared with ranger

[DeceiverX.8361]

It's played well but the sheer level of misplaying by those enemies is... yikes. It's so predictable and so slow to kill. That scourge in particular was... embarrassingly bad.

It also really demonstrates how important SA and Shadowstep are when you start counting stealth uptime and casts, and how significant the damage coming from on-crit sigils is; the 2-3k hits as seen throughout won't down many players in performant builds (and I recognize this is a montage video so most of the time they aren't). As soon as this drops SA and the sigils, the entire concept isn't doable, and I think this video expressly demonstrates a few general concepts wrong with the thief/game moreso than any real overpoweredness from OH dagger itself.

• Sustained stealth is a problem regardless of build. D/P is just the worst offender.
• Significant chunks of burst damage should not exist as an RNG passive on sigils with no visibility.
• SA is way too powerful as a traitline both in implementation and concept (unsurprising, since this happened exactly in 2013 prior to its later hard nerfs from being OP by supporting this playstyle).
• Shadowstep is and always has been just way too strong of a get-out-of-jail-free ability in its ability to apply misdirection, teleport, stunbreak, and bulk cleanse. Again, all of this just isn't possible without it.
• D/D is entirely 100% reliant on this one skill to function at all, and most of the risk and net negative (Revealed debuff) of using it comes from the "Reward" of backstab; and with its damage so low and CnD's remaining so high. It should reworked to be that CnD makes backstab deal more damage to keep D/P from doing insane burst and from CnD from being effective by chaining stealth.

[Exzen.2976]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:It's played well but the sheer level of misplaying by those enemies is... yikes. It's so predictable and so slow to kill. That scourge in particular was... embarrassingly bad.

It also really demonstrates how important SA and Shadowstep are when you start counting stealth uptime and casts, and how significant the damage coming from on-crit sigils is; the 2-3k hits as seen throughout won't down many players in performant builds (and I recognize this is a montage video so most of the time they aren't). As soon as this drops SA and the sigils, the entire concept isn't doable, and I think this video expressly demonstrates a few general concepts wrong with the thief/game moreso than any real overpoweredness from OH dagger itself.

• Sustained stealth is a problem regardless of build. D/P is just the worst offender.
• Significant chunks of burst damage should not exist as an RNG passive on sigils with no visibility.
• SA is way too powerful as a traitline both in implementation and concept (unsurprising, since this happened exactly in 2013 prior to its later hard nerfs from being OP by supporting this playstyle).
• Shadowstep is and always has been just way too strong of a get-out-of-jail-free ability in its ability to apply misdirection, teleport, stunbreak, and bulk cleanse. Again, all of this just isn't possible without it.
• D/D is entirely 100% reliant on this one skill to function at all, and most of the risk and net negative (Revealed debuff) of using it comes from the "Reward" of backstab; and with its damage so low and CnD's remaining so high. It should reworked to be that CnD makes backstab deal more damage to keep D/P from doing insane burst and from CnD from being effective by chaining stealth.

Couldn’t agree more :)

[Dawdler.8521]

@Exzen.2976 said:

@"lare.5129" said:this is how I say "fake mode video"To check it I take only off-dager and try kill someone. 0 kills, many fails ..So I am sure we have find some skilled player who take mesmer with only focus, or elem with only dagger who kill any other class .. and say "oh, look, magic !!!"

Ahh, science. Who can argue with science?

Posts thief video

Everyone:

"Fake garbage! Anecdotal evidence! Doesnt work like that"

Posts 2s of grenade barrage

Everyone:

"Of course its OP!"

For science!!!

[Justine.6351]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Now make a compilation of all failed attempts :D

You can literally make a compilation of kills as any class while not wearing any armor (and it wouldn't be a first), so I guess armors are stoopid and any (every) class that could do it is broken, because random compilation stuff. :(

Do you have a link to your vid?

...what vid exactly?

Idk you said you had vids of killing people while naked.

The only part of your post that's correct is "Idk".

Well you talking like it's easy to make a vid so I presume you actually had a vid idk.

[Exzen.2976]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Exzen.2976 said:

@"lare.5129" said:this is how I say "fake mode video"To check it I take only off-dager and try kill someone. 0 kills, many fails ..So I am sure we have find some skilled player who take mesmer with only focus, or elem with only dagger who kill any other class .. and say "oh, look, magic !!!"

Ahh, science. Who can argue with science?

Posts thief video

Everyone:

"Fake garbage! Anecdotal evidence! Doesnt work like that"

Posts 2s of grenade barrage

Everyone:

"Of course its OP!"

For science!!!

Haha, who doesn’t appreciate good science. If we’re going to use “science” I would like to point out to those claiming “fake, cherry picked, you can make anything look good on a montage” etc, that there are only 4 WvW levels difference between all the clips (you can see for yourself in the bottom right corner), so while a montage is “cherry picked” it’s not exactly as “unrepresentative” as some people are making out. Science.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:It's played well but the sheer level of misplaying by those enemies is... yikes. It's so predictable and so slow to kill. That scourge in particular was... embarrassingly bad.

It also really demonstrates how important SA and Shadowstep are when you start counting stealth uptime and casts, and how significant the damage coming from on-crit sigils is; the 2-3k hits as seen throughout won't down many players in performant builds (and I recognize this is a montage video so most of the time they aren't). As soon as this drops SA and the sigils, the entire concept isn't doable, and I think this video expressly demonstrates a few general concepts wrong with the thief/game moreso than any real overpoweredness from OH dagger itself.

• Sustained stealth is a problem regardless of build. D/P is just the worst offender.The best solution is to just make stealth not stack in duration, but just override the last application. Shadow Refuge would need its base duration increased though.
• Significant chunks of burst damage should not exist as an RNG passive on sigils with no visibility.More damage at the expense of other things. Its inherently balanced, but nothing stopping Anet rom putting particle effects on weapons with the sigils.
• SA is way too powerful as a traitline both in implementation and concept (unsurprising, since this happened exactly in 2013 prior to its later hard nerfs from being OP by supporting this playstyle).Just make stealth not stack then SA becomes a fair bit more balanced.
• Shadowstep is and always has been just way too strong of a get-out-of-jail-free ability in its ability to apply misdirection, teleport, stunbreak, and bulk cleanse. Again, all of this just isn't possible without it.Make it a targeted skill instead of ground targeted.
• D/D is entirely 100% reliant on this one skill to function at all, and most of the risk and net negative (Revealed debuff) of using it comes from the "Reward" of backstab; and with its damage so low and CnD's remaining so high. It should reworked to be that CnD makes backstab deal more damage to keep D/P from doing insane burst and from CnD from being effective by chaining stealth.

Its a good skill sure, does D/D need work on it? not so sure. I think most weapon sets across the classes need a refresh at this point.

[Cynz.9437]

@Exzen.2976 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Exzen.2976 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@manu.7539 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Step one: understand what blind does in this game and then I'm sure you can come up with something and apply condis without much of a problem "lol"

Judging by the posts like yours in this thread, I'm really awaiting people to actually start running this op blind spamming, easy condi applying off-hand only broken wvw "build". :lol: Actually do it by yourself and post the results, just make sure it's not a cherry picked compilation but some actual uncut one-after-another fights outside of catching pve builds trying to cap a camp for a daily.

guess I'll let it go again. Ur still funny

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about right now.

but I'll let u have fun with ur pve builds :p

Ayyyy, good talk.Don't forget to get that OP BROKEN WVW BUILD and post the results, don't run from it now :)

Lol, I don’t think anyone thinks the build is op xD

However there is nothing stopping someone from throwing on a nice mainhand sword or dagger and a second weaponset and actually having an effective build. Even then, it would be very much hardcountered by d/p thief, which is more self sufficient at applying stealth and can keep up permastealth with no problem.

I’m more just highlighting that constant stealth application could use a review.

What weapon skill did they use here? %D

Haha, I’m also not saying it’s the

only broken

thing in WvW. Grenade barrage is also widely known to be completely busted! xD

So stealth is as broken as 1 (!!!) skill on engi because you can kill clueless (probably undergeared) players in wvw. What an evidence. Meanwhile pvp (tournaments including) are completely dominated by guards and necros. Same goes for wvw. Yeah, sure, stealth is broken, guize. One could probably headbutt people to death as warrior and not die while we are at it. Lessgo.