Why are renegade spirits killable?

[Daniel Handler.4816]

Are we suppose to use them to body block?

[ScottBroChill.3254]

maybe for aggro during solo play to lend a little survivability. Seems silly for their short duration and lack of mobility.

[Hooglese.4860]

in theory you can body block with them, but like 90% of attacks in this game can't be body blocked :'(

[SmashGd.1056]

They look like wells, act like wells, I know let's make them minions. So ready to see the changelog "Changed legendary Renegade skills to not be affected by damage or crowd control effects."

[Exalted Quality.8534]

Renegade spirits are killable due to extremely poor design. The intent was for careful thought to be put toward placement on the battlefield in contrast to the passive nature of the boonbot herald. That’s fine, in theory, but execution was poor at best.

How much care can be taken for placement if you can only position summons 600 units or less away from you? It doesn’t take much effort to cc or kill the extremely costly summons even in PvE. You can forget about WvW/sPvP as well. As many others have stated on the forums, the counterplay to the wells mechanic is to not stand in them.

Clearly, ANET will not take the route of making wells and shades cc’able or killable because that would take too much effort on the development side and more importantly, it would put Revs on an even playing field with other classes which will never happen.

Generally, it seems like ANETs approach to Rev balance has been risk everything, gain next to nothing. Perhaps the balance patch will give Revs a little much needed love.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Exalted Quality.8534 said:Clearly, ANET will not take the route of making wells and shades cc’able or killable because that would take too much effort on the development side and more importantly, it would put Revs on an even playing field with other classes which will never happen.

That was a balancing reason, not tech.

Unlike Revenant, body blocking is a real thing with the Necro. Most aoes are capped at 5. Core Necros can summon 6 minons. With killable shades that would be 9. And though Reaper could make 12 if you include rise, he didn't provide aoe buffs like the Scourge.

Tldr; killable shades= necro immune to aoe with barrier buffed minions.

[Exalted Quality.8534]

Admittedly, I don’t play necro at all so I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I was concieting to the fact that they would probably never go the route of making shades or Wells killable. If they did; however, all those mechanics could probably be reworked to limit necros benefitting from Wells/shades dying.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Exalted Quality.8534 said:Admittedly, I don’t play necro at all so I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I was concieting to the fact that they would probably never go the route of making shades or Wells killable. If they did; however, all those mechanics could probably be reworked to limit necros benefitting from Wells/shades dying.

I wasn't referring to the benefit from dying. The problem is the scourge has enough support to keep those minions alive. Making shades killable would be a buff. And its not something that can be reworked.

Body blocking is when an enemy aims for you, but ends up hitting other targets that are in the way. There are two types

• projectile blocking. Projectiles hit the first enemy they come into contact with. If the skill has pierce then the first five. If you can keep 5 or more targets alive in front of you, then you are protected from projectiles. Its why WvW has a front line. Giving necros three ground targeted stationary minions would make projectile blocking easy.
• aoe blocking. The majority of aoe skills can only hit 5 targets. When there are more than 5 targets the game randomly decides who it hits. If Shades become killable they could have nine tanky minions and a 50% chance of being hit. As it is now Scourge can have 6 minions, a 71% chance.

[Lahmia.2193]

@SmashGd.1056 said:They look like wells, act like wells, I know let's make them minions. So ready to see the changelog "Changed legendary Renegade skills to not be affected by damage or crowd control effects."

I'd disagree, they're more like Ranger spirits with some variation on offense and defense.

[The Spiral King.2483]

I don't even care that they're killable, I care that the tiniest amount of CC staggers them, interrupts and ends their effect, and then makes them take a whole 2-3 seconds just to start back up again after they've finished their atrociously long stagger animation (by which point most of them are done anyway or I've burned through all my energy with Soulcleave). Immunity to CC or pulsing stability but still able to be focus fired down relatively easily seems the easiest way to do them. How the hell did the current spirits pass any sort of balancing or quality testing?

[Klowdy.3126]

I expected them to work like wells, but any time I use them against champ or elite enemies, it seems like they spend most of the time stunned or flying around the screen. I'm not much for the PvP in this game, but I could see myself never using these things against another player. They have cast times, no matter how short, they are suseptable to CC, and they can be killed. Bad design guess they have some sort of front loaded damage aspect.

[otto.5684]

@Klowdy.3126 said:I expected them to work like wells, but any time I use them against champ or elite enemies, it seems like they spend most of the time stunned or flying around the screen. I'm not much for the PvP in this game, but I could see myself never using these things against another player. They have cast times, no matter how short, they are suseptable to CC, and they can be killed. Bad design guess they have some sort of front loaded damage aspect.

I tried them in PvP. They do not work.

[ArthurDent.9538]

They would be too op if they worked like normal wells, have you seen the damage they do its crazy.

[Exalted Quality.8534]

The idea that one guy put out about making them unkillable and giving them a defiance bar makes sense to me.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@"Exalted Quality.8534" said:The idea that one guy put out about making them unkillable and giving them a defiance bar makes sense to me.

Who is "that one guy"?

Just make them invulnerable. Let us body block with them, they don't last that long

[otto.5684]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:They would be too op if they worked like normal wells, have you seen the damage they do its crazy.

Crazy damage, like less than quarter DH traps?

I think it is just Halloween and spooky ghostly kitten giving you chills :#

Their damage is negligible at best.

[narcx.3570]

@Exalted Quality.8534 said:Renegade spirits are killable due to extremely poor design. The intent was for careful thought to be put toward placement on the battlefield in contrast to the passive nature of the boonbot herald. That’s fine, in theory, but execution was poor at best.

Clearly, ANET will not take the route of making wells and shades cc’able or killable because that would take too much effort on the development side and more importantly, it would put Revs on an even playing field with other classes which will never happen.

Oh man, if they made it so when shades took damage it drained the Scourge's life-force, I would be soooooooo happy. Not just because it would make it so you could actually, like, counter them... But because the amount of QQ that would spawn would be so legendary.

[Kahrgan.7401]

Because bad design.

[LightningWolfTigerBear.672]

Because elite specs are supposed to add something new mechanically to their professions. Mirage got Mirage Cloak, Holo got the heat mechanic, Deadshot got marks, etc. Renegade got Wells vulnerable to CC.

[intox.6347]

When i first time saw on revenant spirits + shortbow... i was happy that he have range condi weapon, but its weak, and spirits useless. So renegade for me (wvw/ pvp) is no go.

[Oshi.9324]

@intox.6347 said:When i first time saw on revenant spirits + shortbow... i was happy that he have range condi weapon, but its weak, and spirits useless. So renegade for me (wvw/ pvp) is no go.

Spirits are good in 10 vs 10 or less ppl fights Darkrazor cause interrups in area for 6 second and icerazor hit 20 times in 6 sec appling Vulnerability and Crippled that summons hits active Siphon life Devastation Trait making you survive more the only problem is the very low hp and defence of the spirit i was trying to know the health of summon and is like 6-7k hp that is pretty low and not much armor (It get hit like 5k for supervisor in a camp) . For the bow the #5 y #2 skill is the only useful the other are dificult to use because #4 is very slow cast and #3 is very easy to evade with constant runing, So i have to predict the moves of enemy or use #5 skill to knockdown an the use this 2 skills.

I play using Devastation, corruption and Renegade Using Renegade Stance and Assassin Stance when is smalls fights (Assassin stance give good mobility and evades and create a range when using SB).

[narcx.3570]

@Oshi.9324 said:

@intox.6347 said:When i first time saw on revenant spirits + shortbow... i was happy that he have range condi weapon, but its weak, and spirits useless. So renegade for me (wvw/ pvp) is no go.

Spirits are good in 10 vs 10 or less ppl fights Darkrazor cause interrups in area for 6 second and icerazor hit 20 times in 6 sec appling Vulnerability and Crippled that summons hits active Siphon life Devastation Trait making you survive more the only problem is the very low hp and defence of the spirit i was trying to know the health of summon and is like 6-7k hp that is pretty low and not much armor (It get hit like 5k for supervisor in a camp) . For the bow the #5 y #2 skill is the only useful the other are dificult to use because #4 is very slow cast and #3 is very easy to evade with constant runing, So i have to predict the moves of enemy or use #5 skill to knockdown an the use this 2 skills.

I play using Devastation, corruption and Renegade Using Renegade Stance and Assassin Stance when is smalls fights (Assassin stance give good mobility and evades and create a range when using SB).

OMG, how are you just not permanently dead w/o Invo stun break? 0.o

[Oshi.9324]

@narcx.3570 said:

@Oshi.9324 said:

@intox.6347 said:When i first time saw on revenant spirits + shortbow... i was happy that he have range condi weapon, but its weak, and spirits useless. So renegade for me (wvw/ pvp) is no go.

Spirits are good in 10 vs 10 or less ppl fights Darkrazor cause interrups in area for 6 second and icerazor hit 20 times in 6 sec appling Vulnerability and Crippled that summons hits active Siphon life Devastation Trait making you survive more the only problem is the very low hp and defence of the spirit i was trying to know the health of summon and is like 6-7k hp that is pretty low and not much armor (It get hit like 5k for supervisor in a camp) . For the bow the #5 y #2 skill is the only useful the other are dificult to use because #4 is very slow cast and #3 is very easy to evade with constant runing, So i have to predict the moves of enemy or use #5 skill to knockdown an the use this 2 skills.

I play using Devastation, corruption and Renegade Using Renegade Stance and Assassin Stance when is smalls fights (Assassin stance give good mobility and evades and create a range when using SB).

OMG, how are you just not permanently dead w/o Invo stun break? 0.o

Darkrazor and Riposting Shadows in assassin stance are stun break and Riposting Shadows and give movement condition removed,evade between the animation, gain endurance, fury and is a back step 600 range and don´t have cooldown. I really don´t like stun break from changing stance.

[narcx.3570]

@Oshi.9324 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@Oshi.9324 said:

@intox.6347 said:When i first time saw on revenant spirits + shortbow... i was happy that he have range condi weapon, but its weak, and spirits useless. So renegade for me (wvw/ pvp) is no go.

Spirits are good in 10 vs 10 or less ppl fights Darkrazor cause interrups in area for 6 second and icerazor hit 20 times in 6 sec appling Vulnerability and Crippled that summons hits active Siphon life Devastation Trait making you survive more the only problem is the very low hp and defence of the spirit i was trying to know the health of summon and is like 6-7k hp that is pretty low and not much armor (It get hit like 5k for supervisor in a camp) . For the bow the #5 y #2 skill is the only useful the other are dificult to use because #4 is very slow cast and #3 is very easy to evade with constant runing, So i have to predict the moves of enemy or use #5 skill to knockdown an the use this 2 skills.

I play using Devastation, corruption and Renegade Using Renegade Stance and Assassin Stance when is smalls fights (Assassin stance give good mobility and evades and create a range when using SB).

OMG, how are you just not permanently dead w/o Invo stun break? 0.o

Darkrazor and Riposting Shadows in assassin stance are stun break and Riposting Shadows and give movement condition removed,evade between the animation, gain endurance, fury and is a back step 600 range and don´t have cooldown. I really don´t like stun break from changing stance.

Yeah, but you have to sit on 30 energy to be able to use either, so the second you try to do anything offensive, you're wide open to a counter with nothing you can do to escape or stop it... Having Invocation lets you drop 50 energy on a burst combo and still have an out--which is extra important trying to play Renegade since you don't have Infused Light or Bastion to save you.

Not to mention that without a second stun-break, you can't really use Darkrazor offensively (unless the fight is pretty much won for your team anyways) since anyone with even a little bit of game knowledge is just going to call target and chain cc you into oblivion the second they see that dancing char come out. Which is unfortunate because it's probably the strongest offensive move in the renegade's PvP kit.

But, meh, if that build's fun and working for you, more power to ya I guess...!