Support Tempest (WvW)

[Awn.1327]

From the upcoming balance patch:

Quote

We feel that the elementalist has been in a very good place since the July 2020 balance upkittente. Both Tempests and Weavers have effective high kittenmage power and condition kittenmage builds available, while the Tempest is also powerful in a support role.

 

I would like to challenge the statement that "tempest is also powerful in a support role" in WvW (strictly talking group battles here, non-gvg, 15+ vs 15+). It has to be comparable to support scrapper, which it is not. Scrapper's "Purity Of Purpose" alongside the extreme cleansing output already makes them indispensable, but their bonus to regen (and tempests using trooper runes instead of monks) will also overwrite any regen from tempests. On top of that, scrappers get extremely high group superspeed uptime, generally high healing, group kittenmage reduction, high group stealth uptime, AoE reveal and now even high group quickness uptime.

What does support tempest get? Cleanses: on par with scrapper, Healing: sub-par, Immob and aura sharing. This is in no way comparable and calling this "powerful in a support role" is ... misguided... at best.

What would make support tempest "powerful in a support role" would be giving them something that makes them desirable over / alongside a scrapper. Maybe make tempestous aria corrupt / condition-to-boon convert? Give them alacrity? Make invigorating torrents so that auras grant a little bit of barrier instead of regen? Increase base (outgoing) healing? IDK. Just something to make them desirable.

I'd like to keep playing it because I love the playstyle but I have a hard time justifying it over scrapper.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Awn.1327

[Jski.6180]

Its a dead support there no point in running tempest as long as they keep dumping effects on sckittenr.

[RisenHowl.2419]

until they nerf purity of purpose, there's no point in using anything else in the heal/cleanse support slot for wvw

[Jski.6180]

3 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

until they nerf purity of purpose, there's no point in using anything else in the heal/cleanse support slot for wvw

But going to lets give sckittenr quickness on super speed when it already give out WAY too much super speed is going from a 100% used clkittenes to a 150% used clkittenes. It means the very end of using tempest for any thing.

 

That and sckittenr dose not heal it realty dose not "support" core eng dose and the kits that core eng uses carry over. You could of put holo in there and it would of made just as much sences.

 

Sadly due to all of the dmg nerfs on tempest cele is no longer a real chose for doing dmg so that buff to cele realy dose not carry over if any thing it just makes sckittenr even stronger of a chose as all of its skill are very much strong scaling and lower cd.

[Infusion.7149]

The May 11 post was mainly oriented to PvE, where tempest is going to be competitive due to healing 10 targets.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Unfortunately this post seemed to be more PvE focused. I was really looking forward to support Rev & Druid changes to make them a bit more desirable, but alas. 

[Fueki.4753]

The changes aren't even targetting PvE for the majority of the players, but merely the top-end.

They even mentioned that multiple times.

 

The top-end contains (presumably) less than 5% of the player base and hasn't gotten any properly working content in a very long time.

 

Almost none of the changes make sense to me.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Mini Crinny.6190]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The May 11 post was mainly oriented to PvE, where tempest is going to be competitive due to healing 10 targets.

Except it wont be because Tempest lacks any offensive boons or buffs which Ranger,Firebrand and Renegade do.

 

I dont understand why Anet can't give tempest access to Quickness or Alacrity

Edited April 30, 2021 by Mini Crinny.6190

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Tempest is amazing support in PVE.

 

But in WvW, it's pretty terrible. It doesn't help that people defend the current state of Tempest in WvW by saying it does good...it's absolutely garbage and honestly, it's always been bad ever since February's nerf patch which removed Geyser Rezzing from them. That was pretty much the only thing Support Tempest had going for it, and ever since it's been an uphill battle to try to remain relevant on cleanse meters and doing actual useful things in a zerg fight.

 

But yep, people defend the current state of the game like this is healthy...non-viability is healthy. That's why there's more diversity in PVE...because stuff is actually useful there. 

[Mini Crinny.6190]

6 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Tempest is amazing support in PVE.

Tempest support is good if  your training a group of first timers in a raid, but for endgame content, Tempest is overshadowed by Firebrand, Renegade and Ranger (I say ranger because Spirits are core based)

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

7 minutes ago, Mini Crinny.6190 said:

Tempest support is good if  your training a group of first timers in a raid, but for endgame content, Tempest is overshadowed by Firebrand, Renegade and Ranger (I say ranger because Spirits are core based)

Could Tempest get more love in PVE? I mean ya sure...there's honestly ALOT they COULD do, but i'm just glad they aren't nerfing PVE tempest like they do in PvP and WvW...i'll just be grateful with what we got right now, something that actually is functional.

Edited April 30, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, Mini Crinny.6190 said:

Except it wont be because Tempest lacks any offensive boons or buffs which Ranger,Firebrand and Renegade do.

 

I dont understand why Anet can't give tempest access to Quickness or Alacrity

I didn't say it was the outright best option , but you have to consider that you can run cQB x2 or StM chrono x2 and druid with heal tempest as secondary / offheal. If there isn't much incoming damage the tempest can heal everyone (or be hybrid) and your druid can be half condi because you just want the spirit boons and maybe spotter.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[WindBlade.8749]

11 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Could Tempest get more love in PVE? I mean ya sure...there's honestly ALOT they COULD do, but i'm just glad they aren't nerfing PVE tempest like they do in PvP and WvW...i'll just be grateful with what we got right now, something that actually is functional.

tempest is so usless in pve :(, in raids the the kitten that isn't 't do a lot on single target make it mostly usless, same for fractals (except maybe one or two) and in openworlds ? well i do more damage in single target and cleaving on my weaver..... just with a little less range.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Until we get a damage buff to share (power on auras, stacks of arcane powers etc), or quickness/alacrity, tempest will always be trash tier, no matter how many or high green numbers you can give.

Yes you can compete for the second healer in raids; but ... second healer 😶 No ones cares who's the second healer. And only playable in raids. Still, others classes  have better utilities, like HFB with concentration skills, bubble, resolution, resistance, same with ren with ventari bubble; or scourge with barriers and the OP rez gimmick...

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I really do wish heal tempest was better for PVE, too.  The big problem it faces is that it does so much less than all of the other healers.  I'm forced into making one of two choices:

 

(1): Camp Staff water to get good sustained and passive heals... and nothing else at all.

 

(2): Use the dagger/warhorn combo to get an inconsistent smattering of boons, while also getting terrible heals.  

 

I've been using it largely as an impromptu healer for overworld and DRMs, and it amazes me how often my teammates die while I'm going through the rotations.  Unless you have dedicated alacrity support, aurashare tempest will drop it's boons quite regularly.  Which ones I lose depends on which traits I've chosen.  The build also has to sacrifice something pretty important, since the trait distribution looks like this:

 

Fire: Condition Cleanse

Air: Swiftness + Fury

Earth: Protection, Stability

Arcane; Revival Geyser.

Water: Aura Share, or Soothing Mist

Tempest: Might or Regen + Vigor

 

Water and Tempest are necessary, so you only get two real choices here: Might vs. Regen + Vigor, and then one of the other trait lines.  I have two other healers (rev and guardian), and they don't make these sacrifices.  They do far more, far simpler, and with better heals on top of that.

 

Aside from being forced to do less than any other healer, there's only two things they have in compensation:  Auras, and Vigor.  Now, vigor is excellent in PVP/WvW, and mediocre for most of PVE.  I can't knock that.  However, the Auras are pretty bad:

 

Fire:  Gives a small amount of might and 1 second of burn.  Largely useless, since it only works if you're under a lot of fire (lol pun) and you generally want to avoid that.

Frost: 10% damage reduction and chill on hit.  It's better than fire, but the chill isn't useful in PVE and in WvW the worst time to inflict chill is against an enemy who's already attacking you.

Shock:  This one is actually good.  However, it also isn't on any shouts.  Unless you can swap to air with main-hand dagger right this instant, you'll never be able to use it at a crucial moment.  Really bad in PVE, since enemies generally aren't attacking while they're using their breakbar skill.

Magnetic:  This one is situational, but it is good when timed right.

 

So really, you get one good utility aura.  Projectile reflection that sticks with the player is pretty useful in all game modes, and IMO should be the primary focus of any WvW tempests.  The others are just dressing for the traits.

 

In the last thread that talked about this, a lot of good ideas were thrown around.  Making auras give stat bonuses, making auras give the boons innately, making it so aura share is an innate feature to elementalists and make it not require a trait, and so on.  Anet looked at the balance of the classes, and concluded that Lightning Orb needed to be nerfed.  

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 5/1/2021 at 4:35 AM, WindBlade.8749 said:

tempest is so usless in pve :(, in raids the the kitten that isn't 't do a lot on single target make it mostly usless, same for fractals (except maybe one or two) and in openworlds ? well i do more damage in single target and cleaving on my weaver..... just with a little less range.

 

You say this, but if you played WvW and PVP you would know the true meaning of useless. What you guys get in PVE is a blessing in comparison. Meanwhile spvp is a 3rd world country

 

mind you we don’t have healing stats in spvp anymore....you can’t even be an actual healer here...only some quasi-damage support that just ccs people, and is so tanky that it just annoys the enemy...this is their current form of support.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[lockhart.6048]

As both a tempest and scrapper player in WvW, I was kind of shocked PoP was not touched.

 

Anyway, I can see a decent split between the 2 supports if PoP was moved to Tempest instead (although I know a lot of people hate PoP anyway). Both classes, when played by skilled people, can nearly equal each other in cleanse numbers. Scrappers already have the massive utility of on demand superspeed and stealth, along with constant healing, monk runes, and soon quickness. They even get the freedom to build switch to a Reveal set up.Tempests get improved protection, auras, immobs (but scrappers usually run hammers that can CC anyway), excellent might uptime.

 

A lot of people have this point of view that Tempests output more healing but I must disagree. Scrappers can pump A LOT of healing, and VERY QUICK too, along with constant padding of med kit #1. Medical Dispersion Field + PoP + Compounding Chemicals + Fumigate can generate a massive amount of healing, cleanses and boons all at once, along with a massive group near instant heal at med kit #4. Compare that to Overload water which ticks healing + cleanses and does a massive burst heal only at the end, it's no contest which one is better.

[Infusion.7149]

17 minutes ago, lockhart.6048 said:

As both a tempest and scrapper player in WvW, I was kind of shocked PoP was not touched.

 

Anyway, I can see a decent split between the 2 supports if PoP was moved to Tempest instead (although I know a lot of people hate PoP anyway). Both classes, when played by skilled people, can nearly equal each other in cleanse numbers. Scrappers already have the massive utility of on demand superspeed and stealth, along with constant healing, monk runes, and soon quickness. They even get the freedom to build switch to a Reveal set up.Tempests get improved protection, auras, immobs (but scrappers usually run hammers that can CC anyway), excellent might uptime.

 

A lot of people have this point of view that Tempests output more healing but I must disagree. Scrappers can pump A LOT of healing, and VERY QUICK too, along with constant padding of med kit #1. Medical Dispersion Field + PoP + Compounding Chemicals + Fumigate can generate a massive amount of healing, cleanses and boons all at once, along with a massive group near instant heal at med kit #4. Compare that to Overload water which ticks healing + cleanses and does a massive burst heal only at the end, it's no contest which one is better.

You don't run overshield on scrapper?

One of the largest issues right now is scrapper healing scaling. Scales far higher with boons. I don't feel Purity of Purpose is as problematic as people make it out to be, most of the strong boons from conditions are converted to 1.5s base duration.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[lockhart.6048]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You don't run overshield on scrapper?

One of the largest issues right now is scrapper healing scaling. Scales far higher with boons. I don't feel Purity of Purpose is as problematic as people make it out to be, most of the strong boons from conditions are converted to 1.5s base duration.

quick FYI, scrapper Overshield buffs 40% Damage Reduction *only to the scrapper*. The Tempest version buffs it to everyone that they grant protection to.

 

edit : sorry didn't answer your question. yes I run overshield even though I am in hammer in most engages. I swap to shield real quick right before the moment of engage to grant protection and then swap back to hammer for thunderclap.

Edited May 2, 2021 by lockhart.6048

[Jski.6180]

They could of at least let tempest heat sink share quirkiness and alacrity. I just do not get why they hate ele at all points of the game this much.

[Jski.6180]

20 minutes ago, lockhart.6048 said:

quick FYI, scrapper Overshield buffs 40% Damage Reduction *only to the scrapper*. The Tempest version buffs it to everyone that they grant protection to.

 

edit : sorry didn't answer your question. yes I run overshield even though I am in hammer in most engages. I swap to shield real quick right before the moment of engage to grant protection and then swap back to hammer for thunderclap.

I do not comply understand these new forms quote system enofe to make this not a doable post..

 

But tempest nor eng stronger protection never carried over to other ppl. There is nothing uniquest for tempest.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I know the tooltip is vicious, but actually Hard Conduit 40% damage reduction only affect Tempest(s), not others allies.

Most of websites just don't specify it because they don't know either

[lockhart.6048]

Actually I think it is worth testing out. A few guilds I know of run like 1 tempest to grant perma protection and this supposed 40% damage reduction to protection. I haven't found evidence to either side, and I am currently not able to test it out. Google brings some conflicting discussions when it is mentioned, and searching through various WvW server/guild discords doesn't really bring any concrete evidence against or for it

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Whatever the answer, it just proves how attentive  and explicitdevelopers are, about tempest, if after 5 years no one knows how the traits work.

[Jski.6180]

I get the feeling a lot of ppl dont understand what ele can and cant realty do. I bet this fuel why ppl dont understand just how much anet hates the ele class lol.