Legendary Demon Stance Unplayable after patch?

[lodjur.1284]

3 minutes ago, Skada.1362 said:

Really hope that patch will finally destroy and bury condi herald in WvW, it's just way to degen right now, especially with support.

Most of them will swap away from it. 

 

Condi Herald shouldn't even have ever been a thing, the skills/traits herald provides are just so obviously not designed for a condi build, it's just an overpowered heal skill to carry people and a 600 radius unavoidable (outside of renewed focus/similar, even goes through evades like dagger storm) 1 shot button.

 

Hopefully Abyssal Chill also gets a rework so the rest of the heralds swap to a different class

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 5/1/2021 at 10:05 AM, otto.5684 said:

I found that a bit funny, considering it already out dps herald. It is like Anet saying, we know there are no viable rev power builds in pve and we don’t give a kitten.

Which was the goal back when they nerfed shiro, and bashed it over the head. To be honest I'll be REALLY surprised if the next E-spec is focused in either form; I think its going to be a "It can go either way".  I think whatever we get will be a completive focused legend, as that seems like where they are headed. All of the patches over the recent months have been aimed at toning rev down in competitive while also making them better at end game PvE. So we will get the spell-breaker like treatment next expansion, a spec more based around WvW and PvP which likely will have in some form or another the things that have been removed. Which is how they've always designed E-specs. They take stuff out, repurpose it and remake it only to give it back to us in one package.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 5/5/2021 at 2:37 PM, lodjur.1284 said:

 

Overall banish enchantment could still use a nerf though (or more importantly a redesign of abysmal chill).

 

 

Banish Enchantment and Abyssal Chill did just get a massive nerf though...  They DO NOT need redesigns as even before the upcoming patch they haven't been particularly busted when compared across the board to other classes. The 50% damage reduction to outgoing torment damage on moving targets is the nerf.  All enemies that aren't brain dead should be moving 100% of the time in PvE and PvP unless CC'd.  Even then, all of Rev's CCs besides Scorchrazor and Jade Winds are also "Movement CCs," meaning they move the target and don't leave them standing still for longer than 1s.  Torment damage in general is going to be abysmal after patch on all variants of condi rev in WvW. 

[lodjur.1284]

7 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Banish Enchantment and Abyssal Chill did just get a massive nerf though...  They DO NOT need redesigns as even before the upcoming patch they haven't been particularly busted when compared across the board to other classes. The 50% damage reduction to outgoing torment damage on moving targets is the nerf.  All enemies that aren't brain dead should be moving 100% of the time in PvE and PvP unless CC'd.  Even then, all of Rev's CCs besides Scorchrazor and Jade Winds are also "Movement CCs," meaning they move the target and don't leave them standing still for longer than 1s.  Torment damage in general is going to be abysmal after patch on all variants of condi rev in WvW. 

Banish Enchantment is far too spammable for a 3 boon removal with added damage. It should either have a cooldown, notably higher cost or my favorite, be melee.

 

People surely move more than 50% of the time, but surely not even close to 100% in real fights. 

 

Especially when you consider cleaving, other people CCing, channel times, etc.

[Virdo.1540]

I still hope they rework "Demonic Resistance" from power dmg reduction (33% pve/10% Wvw,pvp) 

into Condition Damage reduction 20% everywhere

[GlowingMoth.1063]

Ok. First of all:

So maybe I missed something. Where did they say they're making resistance useless on the stunbreak? Iirc they changed movement condis(immob chill etc.) To not get affected. Im p sure they didnt change how it will be affected to torment. 

 

Second of all. Don't you all realize they made retribrution the way it should be??? (Aka. Defensive traitline focusing on survivability.)

Now, imo the only thing they should change is the weakness spam, after that id say its way closer to being as its intendend to be, in other words a DEFENSIVE traitline. (talking pvp)

 

Playing retri with any rev build after 11th will be broken as hell lads rofl. (INC. CREV!)

 

Edit:

Resistance

• Nondamaging conditions currently on the player are ineffective. Stacks duration.

Just as I thought. Also they buffed stunbreak resistance. Lmfao u guys.. 🙂

Edited May 8, 2021 by La belladone.6579

[Kronos.2560]

"Resolution

• The Retaliation boon has been renamed Resolution.
• Incoming condition damage is decreased by 33%. Stacks duration.
• Unless otherwise specified, skills and traits that formerly granted or used retaliation now use resolution.

Resistance

• Nondamaging conditions currently on the player are ineffective. Stacks duration."

 

Basically Resistance ONLY affects things like Immobilize, Chill etc. It does nothing against damaging conditions. Meaning that if a rev uses their Mallyx Stunbreak and pulls a bunch of bleed/burn/torment onto themselves (in WVW/Mai Trin especially) they have a change to automatically get 20+ stacks and die instantly. While they did buff duration of resistance on the stunbreak resistance itself does not help you at all unless you count the GM trait for healing with resistance (which you can easily have 100% uptime now with Demonic Defiance trait so it still brings nothing new)

 

In the Update to the May 11 notes they added

• "Pain absorption: Now also applies resolution to the caster with a duration of 5 seconds."

 

Which will help with the 33% reduction. But basically you are still taking 66% of those massive condition stacks thus it is still most likely a suicide button. (In small group play with minimal conditions it probably can still be used.)

 

Overall assessment it is still a suicide button in some situations and an almost suicide button in others. As typically when you are stunbreaking there are usually conditions flying about and you are pulling all of them to you. (I am not going to address weapon swap to not activate the condi pull and I am talking about the skill as it is intended to be used. )

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Kronos.2560 said:

"Resolution

• The Retaliation boon has been renamed Resolution.
• Incoming condition damage is decreased by 33%. Stacks duration.
• Unless otherwise specified, skills and traits that formerly granted or used retaliation now use resolution.

Resistance

• Nondamaging conditions currently on the player are ineffective. Stacks duration."

 

Basically Resistance ONLY affects things like Immobilize, Chill etc. It does nothing against damaging conditions. Meaning that if a rev uses their Mallyx Stunbreak and pulls a bunch of bleed/burn/torment onto themselves (in WVW/Mai Trin especially) they have a change to automatically get 20+ stacks and die instantly. While they did buff duration of resistance on the stunbreak resistance itself does not help you at all unless you count the GM trait for healing with resistance (which you can easily have 100% uptime now with Demonic Defiance trait so it still brings nothing new)

 

In the Update to the May 11 notes they added

• "Pain absorption: Now also applies resolution to the caster with a duration of 5 seconds."

 

Which will help with the 33% reduction. But basically you are still taking 66% of those massive condition stacks thus it is still most likely a suicide button. (In small group play with minimal conditions it probably can still be used.)

 

Overall assessment it is still a suicide button in some situations and an almost suicide button in others. As typically when you are stunbreaking there are usually conditions flying about and you are pulling all of them to you. (I am not going to address weapon swap to not activate the condi pull and I am talking about the skill as it is intended to be used. )

 

I imagine that you'll play renegade as condi build.

- Resolution provide you with -33% condi damage

- Righteous rebel add -35% (conveniently it's even the trait that boost your Alacrity output)

- Breakrazor bastion top it off at -50% (that's the bonus)

 

I mean, you're likely to only take 32% of the condition damage after the stunbreak not 66% (and that's if the coeffs are additive, if it's multiplicative, like most coeffs in this game, you'll only take 20%...).

 

Renegade Jalis can potentialy be nigh impervious to condition damage thanks to the combo: resolution + Righteous rebel + vengeful hammer.

[Kronos.2560]

Assuming you were running renegade not glint or core revenant. Also assuming you were planning on getting stunned and just used your kala heal skill and then swapped legends right before you got stunned you would be correct.

Not to say you can't have different ways to help mitigate condition damage on revenants. But if you are looking at just Mallyx and using it's stunbreak with core revenant it still hurts a lot.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

The change to Pain Absorption makes me want a baseline offhand weapon even more. Give it a skill that transfers condis so as to help take advantage of the change to PA.

[Dadnir.5038]

11 hours ago, Kronos.2560 said:

Assuming you were running renegade not glint or core revenant. Also assuming you were planning on getting stunned and just used your kala heal skill and then swapped legends right before you got stunned you would be correct.

Not to say you can't have different ways to help mitigate condition damage on revenants. But if you are looking at just Mallyx and using it's stunbreak with core revenant it still hurts a lot.

 

So does necromancer using corruption skills, plague signet passive, signet of undeath active or Unholy martyr. So does anyone using an elite skill alongside runes of altruism.

 

Atm, renegade is objectively the superior choice for condi builds involving mallyx in PvE group content. While outside of group content, you could careless whether pain absorption drain condition or not (because there shouldn't be anyone around you suffering from conditions).

 

Also, keep in mind that ANet consider drawing condition as a damage buff for professions that can transfert conditions. Which mean that for them removing this effect is like asking for a double nerf of both support and condition output potential.

 

NB.: I didn't use breakrazor in my calculs, it's just the "bonus". So I'd be correct whether or not all the things you assume are in play. And, no, the whole point is that you are not looking at just mallyx, the environment in which mallyx is played is very important since if there is no players around you suffering from conditions you'll be fine, if your group have high cleanse rate you'll be fine, if what you fight don't use conditions you'll be fine... etc. You use Mai trin as a benchmark and if you do you're expected to have a minimum of synergy within your fractal group (which most often translate by providing alacrity through renegade and thus taking righteous rebel for maximum effectiveness giving you an expected -35% condi damage reduction on top of the -33% condi damage reduction of resolve for either -68% condi damage or -79% if the coeff are multiplicatives.)

[Jijimuge.4675]

3 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

You use Mai trin as a benchmark and if you do you're expected to have a minimum of synergy within your fractal group (which most often translate by providing alacrity through renegade and thus taking righteous rebel for maximum effectiveness giving you an expected -35% condi damage reduction on top of the -33% condi damage reduction of resolve for either -68% condi damage or -79% if the coeff are multiplicatives.)

 

Although the maths in the additive case is fine, I don't think the maths is correct in the multiplicative case.

 

What you appear to have done is to multiply 1.35 x 1.33 = 1.7955, which would be OK if we were looking at an increase in condi damage, however this is a reduction.

 

If there's a reduction of 35% and also a reduction of 33%, this would mean that the person would be taking (100-35)% of the damage and then take (100-33)% of that = 65% x 67% = 43.55% for the multiplicative case, (i.e. an aggregate of -56.45% condi damage)

[Dadnir.5038]

10 minutes ago, Jijimuge.4675 said:

 

Although the maths in the additive case is fine, I don't think the maths is correct in the multiplicative case.

 

What you appear to have done is to multiply 1.35 x 1.33 = 1.7955, which would be OK if we were looking at an increase in condi damage, however this is a reduction.

 

If there's a reduction of 35% and also a reduction of 33%, this would mean that the person would be taking (100-35)% of the damage and then take (100-33)% of that = 65% x 67% = 43.55% for the multiplicative case, (i.e. an aggregate of -56.45% condi damage)

 

True.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 5/7/2021 at 2:42 PM, lodjur.1284 said:

Banish Enchantment is far too spammable for a 3 boon removal with added damage. It should either have a cooldown, notably higher cost or my favorite, be melee.

 

People surely move more than 50% of the time, but surely not even close to 100% in real fights. 

 

Especially when you consider cleaving, other people CCing, channel times, etc.

I sincerely hope Anet doesn’t implement changes like those as they’re incredibly unnecessary, especially after the upcoming nerf. 

 

And we’re clearly not playing the same game. Any competent player should be moving 90% of the time, even when cleaving.  Watching any high level gameplay shows that unless immobed, CC’d, or casting something that requires standing still (I.e. barrage), players are constantly moving.  In real fights, yes, people are actually moving 90%+.  If you have video evidence that proves otherwise please feel free to link it, but I’ve played this game for 8 years at a high level in pvp and WvW and your statements don’t match my experience at all 

[lodjur.1284]

4 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I sincerely hope Anet doesn’t implement changes like those as they’re incredibly unnecessary, especially after the upcoming nerf. 

 

And we’re clearly not playing the same game. Any competent player should be moving 90% of the time, even when cleaving.  Watching any high level gameplay shows that unless immobed, CC’d, or casting something that requires standing still (I.e. barrage), players are constantly moving.  In real fights, yes, people are actually moving 90%+.  If you have video evidence that proves otherwise please feel free to link it, but I’ve played this game for 8 years at a high level in pvp and WvW and your statements don’t match my experience at all 

The enemies you cleave are obviously not moving.... ofc you yourself move a little while  cleaving. Unless enemy downed players and ressers usually move a lot for you?

 

If you and your enemies are CCed less than 10% of the time, we are indeed playing a different game tho. I do kinda wanna play the version of the game where you're CCed less than 10% of the time, seems like a much more fun version. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Aeolus.3615]

it  mn8 actually become stronger if u have  ranger perma CC target...  and u keep geting all the damage and the condi :) still requires more teamwork

 

Quota from next update: ". Torment will now deal bonus damage to targets that are standing still instead of to moving targets.

 

get a class to perma cc targets :P

 

EDIT: perma burn engie  Flammenwerfer 35 ._.   if i notice well works with scrapper as well and quite tanky

Edited May 12, 2021 by Aeolus.3615