Corylus.8213 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 I rarely post anything but this is just too much. Returned to the game after a half a year hiatus. Completed Champions chapter in one go and the main disappointment was this poll. It seems like the gamer has become too entitled these days. Same situation with the vocal negative crowd in other games I play too (EVE, PoE). Like there is no COVID, no lockdowns, no fear, no death around you. Games are one of few safe harbors we have now. Relax, chill, and hope for the better. Voted Positive. Wish all the best to devs, looking forward to future expansion. 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imba.9451 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Corylus.8213 said: I rarely post anything but this is just too much. Returned to the game after a half a year hiatus. Completed Champions chapter in one go and the main disappointment was this poll. It seems like the gamer has become too entitled these days. Same situation with the vocal negative crowd in other games I play too (EVE, PoE). Like there is no COVID, no lockdowns, no fear, no death around you. Games are one of few safe harbors we have now. Relax, chill, and hope for the better. Voted Positive. Wish all the best to devs, looking forward to future expansion. Entitled? Should we be thankful for everything that gets thrown at us, just because it is... something? Thats not entitlement. People gave plenty of reason for why the finale was ahuge disappointment. Additionally, the reasons you stated are maybe an explanation for WHY the finale is bad, but they do not turn the content magically into something better. If a great and talented musician gets very sick and decides to record a now song, then I respect him for trying to get something out. However, if you can clearly tell that the new song is bad, then it's bad. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 2 hours ago, Corylus.8213 said: I rarely post anything but this is just too much. Returned to the game after a half a year hiatus. Completed Champions chapter in one go and the main disappointment was this poll. It seems like the gamer has become too entitled these days. Same situation with the vocal negative crowd in other games I play too (EVE, PoE). Like there is no COVID, no lockdowns, no fear, no death around you. Games are one of few safe harbors we have now. Relax, chill, and hope for the better. Voted Positive. Wish all the best to devs, looking forward to future expansion. Yea you got to do it in 1 go this was spread over 6 months for the people playing. Maybe you cant see how choped up it really felt for the rest of us mate. Not going to go into how one of the big bad guy of the first game got hardly any story to him at all and ended in a 20 min instance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 33 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said: Not going to go into how one of the big bad guy of the first game got hardly any story to him at all and ended in a 20 min instance. He got just as much story as the other Elder Dragons did. And Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk, all died in 20 minute long fights. Like, the actual Mouth of Mordremoth fight itself can take less than 20 minutes. The story version in "Hearts and Minds" isn't much, if at all, longer. Same thing with the actual fight against Zhaitan in Arah story mode. And the same is true of the fight against Kralk in the War Eternal story, since we don't actually fight to kill in the open world meta. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 16 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: He got just as much story as the other Elder Dragons did. And Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk, all died in 20 minute long fights. Like, the actual Mouth of Mordremoth fight itself can take less than 20 minutes. The story version in "Hearts and Minds" isn't much, if at all, longer. Same thing with the actual fight against Zhaitan in Arah story mode. And the same is true of the fight against Kralk in the War Eternal story, since we don't actually fight to kill in the open world meta. Yes we had this argument before and primordus got less story to him then any of the other dragons we fought to date in gw2. Personal story 40+ all about leading up to zhaitan, hot maps and story mordremoth, kralkatoric season 4 and ibs jormag with what was it 1 story instance and 6 drms for primordus? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said: Yes we had this argument before and primordus got less story to him then any of the other dragons we fought to date in gw2. Personal story 40+ all about leading up to zhaitan, hot maps and story mordremoth, kralkatoric season 4 and ibs jormag with what was it 1 story instance and 6 drms for primordus? Convenient how you ignore all the core story arcs/maps/events his minions were in, as well as the Ember Bay, and Draconis Mons, releases, which were also Primordus story content. Each of the dragons had "build up" content Zhaitan had the southern part of Bloodtide, as well as Sparkfly, where its champ Tequatal was. Mordremoth had Dry Top, and Silverwastes, where its champ the Vinewrath was. Kralkatorrik had part of Fields of Ruin, Iron Marches, and Blazeridge, where its champ the Shatterer was. Jormag had the northern parts of Wayfarer, and Snowden, as well as Forstgorge, where its champ the Claw was Primordus was more scattershot due to his nature of being the underground dragon who can pop up anywhere, but his forces appear in Metrica, Brisban, Kessex, Timberline, Lornar's, and Mount Maelstrom, where its champ the Megadestroyer was. When it came to actually fighting the dragons Zhaitan had the three Orr maps, Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed shore. Plus the dragon fight itself in Arah story mode. Mordremoth had the first three HoT maps, Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths. Plus the dragon fight itself in Dragon's Stand Kralkatorrik had Vabbi, Jahai, and Thunderhead. Plus the dragon fight in Dragonfall. Jormag had Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood. Plus the dragon fight itself in Dragonstorm Primordus got Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and the Champions DRMs/Wildfire story instance as a replacement for its third map. Plus the actual dragon fight itself in Dragonstorm. Each of the dragons had equal "build up" content back in core, and Anet has followed the same pattern of "three maps with stories + a dragon fight" for each of the dragons. While Primrodus didn't get a third map, all of the story they planned to tell got moved to the DRMs. So he lost a physical map, but not the story that map was going to tell. If you compare to Mordremoth. It takes about an hour to get through each of the first three HoT map's story content, with the 4th mostly just being the fight against the dragon itself. So about 3.5-4 hours of major story for Mordremoth in HoT. It takes about an hour to get through a typical living world release. So Primordus got two hours from the Ember Bay/Draconis Mons releases, another hour and a half or so from the DRMs(15 minutes per DRM for the 6 DRMs his forces are in), and then the Dragonstorm fight itself, which can take anywhere from 15-20 minutes. So about 3-4 hours of story content... the exact same. Also, Kralk only had the back half of S4. The first three LWS4 releases were about dealing with Joko's return, and attempt to unleash the scarab plague. Edited July 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 16 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Each of the dragons had equal "build up" content back in core, and Anet has followed the same pattern of "three maps with stories + a dragon fight" for each of the dragons. While Primrodus didn't get a third map, all of the story they planned to tell got moved to the DRMs. So he lost a physical map, but not the story that map was going to tell. I also thought or something funny just now The story for Bjora Marches is Jormag's minions using indirect methods(the whispers form Drakkar) to inflict damage on the area. The story for Ember Bay is Primordus' minions using indirect methods(attempting to accelerate the magical build up of a volcano so it would blow) to inflict damage on the area. The story for Drizzlewood is a rogue Charr leader attempting to harness the power of Jormag for his own ends, us stopping him, and we get out first view of the dragon. The story for Draconis Mons is a rogue human god attempting to harness the power of Primordus for his own ends, us stopping him, and getting our first view of the dragon. The story for Bitterforst is us going to what was the front lines in the fight against Jormag to deal with his forces, and help Braham with his goal of cracking the tooth, which made him the Norn of Prophecy. the story of the DRMs, which replaced Primordus' third map, is us going to the front lines in the fight against Primordus' invasion, and dealing with Braham getting his destroyer sense powers, and attempting to understand his role in the prophecy, and then fulfilling his role as the Norn of Prophecy. Both dragons had literally the same plot beats, spread across three maps(or two maps and the DRMs in Primordus' case), but apparently one of them got no plot... somehow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Yea you are totaly correct primordus was kinda like a magic puppet powersuit that braham donned to take on to defeat jormag and its champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 18 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said: Yea you are totaly correct primordus was kinda like a magic puppet powersuit that braham donned to take on to defeat jormag and its champion. Except this isn't what happened at all. All Braham did was direct Primordus over to Jormag. Braham wasn't puppeteering Primordus, and, as we clearly see in the Firehart Rise DRM, and in Dragonstorm, it was more Primordus controlling Braham at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imba.9451 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 4 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: He got just as much story as the other Elder Dragons did. And Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk, all died in 20 minute long fights. Like, the actual Mouth of Mordremoth fight itself can take less than 20 minutes. The story version in "Hearts and Minds" isn't much, if at all, longer. Same thing with the actual fight against Zhaitan in Arah story mode. And the same is true of the fight against Kralk in the War Eternal story, since we don't actually fight to kill in the open world meta. Quantity isn't quality. Just having a few throwaway lines and a few minions to fight without actually establishing an antagonist is not development. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Quantity isn't quality. Just having a few throwaway lines and a few minions to fight without actually establishing an antagonist is not development. What exactly wasn't established about Primordus in that content that was about the other Elder Dragons? Its motive? Nope, we know that. Same as the other Elder Dragons. It wants to consume all life/magic in the world. Its minions? Nope, we have gotten rather extensive review of those also. Its method of attack? Nope, we clearly see its preferred methods of attack in numerous situations. Its opinion of mortals? Nope, we have known since core that Primordus has no real interest in corrupting mortals. Instead preferring to simply make minions out of pure elements. Its minion power structure? Nope. Hell, that was covered back in EoTN in GW1. And repeated by Taimi in the Metrica DRM. The stories of its associated races the Asura and Dwarves? Nope. As shown earlier, both of those got extensive coverage. We know as much about Primordus as we do Zhaitan, another dragon we never directly talked to. So the claims of it not being established fall flat unless you can sufficiently explain an aspect that wasn't already covered in the game. Edited July 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imba.9451 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: What exactly wasn't established about Primordus in that content that was about the other Elder Dragons? Its motive? Nope, we know that. Same as the other Elder Dragons. It wants to consume all life/magic in the world. Its minions? Nope, we have gotten rather extensive review of those also. Its method of attack? Nope, we clearly see its preferred methods of attack in numerous situations. Its opinion of mortals? Nope, we have known since core that Primordus has no real interest in corrupting mortals. Instead preferring to simply make minions out of pure elements. Its minion power structure? Nope. Hell, that was covered back in EoTN in GW1. And repeated by Taimi in the Metrica DRM. The stories of its associated races the Asura and Dwarves? Nope. As shown earlier, both of those got extensive coverage. We know as much about Primordus as we do Zhaitan, another dragon we never directly talked to. So the claims of it not being established fall flat unless you can sufficiently explain an aspect that wasn't already covered in the game. Yes, those things were established. But establishment and development (=having a character arc and involvement in the story) are two different things. Bandits are established as well. But they are an element of worldbuilding and far from the focus of the main story. Heck, one might even make the argument, that due to Caudecus, Bandits have received more focus in the story than Primordus. Involvement in the story does require more than simply being there, or having the reader/player/whatever know, that it exists. Basically, Primordus was nothing more than setpiece. It had some minions, wich sometimes attacked some stuff. But overall, it was never the true focus of anything, and ALWAYS got overshadowed by another storythread. And thats what people complain about. Not that it wasn't there, but that it wasn't used well. Example: Sauron, despite NEVER being shown apart from the prologue, does pose a massive threat in the LotR movies, because he is the center of the plot most of the time. Saruman became a main threat, because the story went out of it's way to make clear how he intended to ravage Rohan, how he gathered an army of uruks and wreaked havoc. Thats how you develop a secondary antagonist and let him have involvement with the story, instead of having him be "just there" and getting cleaned up with the main antagonist in one fellow swoop. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said: Yes, those things were established. But establishment and development (=having a character arc and involvement in the story) are two different things. Bandits are established as well. But they are an element of worldbuilding and far from the focus of the main story. Heck, one might even make the argument, that due to Caudecus, Bandits have received more focus in the story than Primordus. Involvement in the story does require more than simply being there, or having the reader/player/whatever know, that it exists. Basically, Primordus was nothing more than setpiece. It had some minions, wich sometimes attacked some stuff. But overall, it was never the true focus of anything, and ALWAYS got overshadowed by another storythread. And thats what people complain about. Not that it wasn't there, but that it wasn't used well. Example: Sauron, despite NEVER being shown apart from the prologue, does pose a massive threat in the LotR movies, because he is the center of the plot most of the time. Saruman became a main threat, because the story went out of it's way to make clear how he intended to ravage Rohan, how he gathered an army of uruks and wreaked havoc. Thats how you develop a secondary antagonist and let him have involvement with the story, instead of having him be "just there" and getting cleaned up with the main antagonist in one fellow swoop. Except, again, this argument would only work if you treat IBS as the entirety of the Primordus/Jormag plot... which it wasn't. Jormag was the focus of IBS because Primordus was the focus of the LWS3 releases involving the dragons, so they needed to balance them out. Primordus wasn't just "there" in Ember Bay and Draconis Mons, it was the driving force/focus behind the main events of those releases. Just like Jormag was in Bjora, and Drizzlewood, in IBS. And just like Jormag had more of a side place in LWS3, with the Bitterfrost release, Primordus took the same secondary role in the overall IBS storyline with the Champions releases/Centaur Homelands map they originally had planned. This was done to make sure the dragons both got equal development/importance in the overall plot. They both had their own plot time where they were the primary. There was no overall "secondary" between them, each one was just primary at a different point. And as already pointed out, the three maps/sections of both Dragon's stories were the exact same. If you are going to argue that Primordus was nothing more then a set piece, whose minions sometimes attacked some stuff, but was overall never the true focus of anything, you would have to make the exact same argument about Jormag because... Drizzlewood wasn't about Jormag. It was about Bangar trying to take Jormag's power for his Charr civil war. Just like Draconis Mons could be argued to not be about Primoruds, it was about Balthazar trying to take Primordus' power for his revenge plot. Bjora Marches wasn't about Jormag. It was about his minion Drakkar using whispers to manipulate thing. Just like Ember Bay could be argued about Primordus' minions trying to blow a volcano, and not the dragon itself. Bitterforst wasn't about Jormag either. It was about us fighting his forces and helping Braham get on his journey of becoming the Norn of prophecy. Just like one could argue Champions wasn't about Primordus, it was about us fighting his forces and helping Braham finish his journey in becoming the Norn of prophecy. Its the same plot, across the three major sections of each story, for both dragons. Anything you say for one is equally true of the other,since they had the exact same narrative development plan. Hell, one could make this same argument you are making Primordus about Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik also. Verdant Brink wasn't about Mordremoth, it was about The Pact struggling to recoup from the fleet being taken down. Auric Basin wasn't about Mordremoth also. It was about us finding Tarir, Aurene's egg, and learning about Glint's plan. Tangled Depths wasn't about Mordremoth either. It was about us finding Rata Novus, and learning about how we could possible beat the dragons. Vabbi wasn't about Kralk. It was about us trying to stop Balthazar from taking Kralk's power! Jahai wasn't about Kralk. It was about the various groups of Elona coming together to find a new normal after Joko's fall, and Aurene having a scary vision which frighted her! Thunderhead Peaks wasn't about Kralk directly, it was about us looking for a weapon to kill the Elder dragon, and Aurene coming face to face with her vision. For both Mordremoth and Kralk, in HoT, and LWS4, one could argue the releases weren't about them, they were just set pieces in other stories. Mordremoth, Kralk, Jormag, and Primordus, all got treated the exact same way, across each of their three major story maps before the actual fight map. They were the driving force behind the overall plot, but the releases themselves/maps tended to focus on smaller stories within the overall meta story, with each smaller story contributing to the overall meta story in some way. Typically about finding allies/information/weapons needed to kill the dragon. Edited July 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imba.9451 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Except, again, this argument would only work if you treat IBS as the entirety of the Primordus/Jormag plot... which it wasn't. Except, it was. The primordus threat in LS3 got dealt with in LS3. Primordus rising again is a new chapter. 3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Jormag was the focus of IBS because Primordus was the focus of the LWS3 releases involving the dragons, so they needed to balance them out. Primordus wasn't just "there" in Ember Bay and Draconis Mons, it was the driving force/focus behind the main events of those releases. Just like Jormag was in Bjora, and Drizzlewood, in IBS. And just like Jormag had more of a side place in LWS3, with the Bitterfrost release, Primordus took the same secondary role in the overall IBS storyline with the Champions releases/Centaur Homelands map they originally had planned. This was done to make sure the dragons both got equal development/importance in the overall plot. They both had their own plot time where they were the primary. There was no overall "secondary" between them, each one was just primary at a different point. Yes, at a different point. Thats the thing with storytelling, you have to manage your highs and lows, and when and where to incluse wich character in order for tension to rise, anticipations being created and the payoff feeling satisfying. 3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: And as already pointed out, the three maps/sections of both Dragon's stories were the exact same. If you are going to argue that Primordus was nothing more then a set piece, whose minions sometimes attacked some stuff, but was overall never the true focus of anything, you would have to make the exact same argument about Jormag because... Drizzlewood wasn't about Jormag. It was about Bangar trying to take Jormag's power for his Charr civil war. Just like Draconis Mons could be argued to not be about Primoruds, it was about Balthazar trying to take Primordus' power for his revenge plot. Bjora Marches wasn't about Jormag. It was about his minion Drakkar using whispers to manipulate thing. Just like Ember Bay could be argued about Primordus' minions trying to blow a volcano, and not the dragon itself. Bitterforst wasn't about Jormag either. It was about us fighting his forces and helping Braham get on his journey of becoming the Norn of prophecy. Just like one could argue Champions wasn't about Primordus, it was about us fighting his forces and helping Braham finish his journey in becoming the Norn of prophecy. Now you start to see the problem everyone else describes. The transition from Charr Civil war towards "Jormag bad" was simply terrible. Both in execution and pacing. Additionally, the Civil War Story threat felt lackluster in hindsight, because it served as a leadup for something disappointing. People notice this. 3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Its the same plot, across the three major sections of each story, for both dragons. Anything you say for one is equally true of the other,since they had the exact same narrative development plan. Hell, one could make this same argument you are making Primordus about Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik also. No. Both were a clear focus and driving force behind stuff that happend. I am not going to say that I liked some of the directions with Kralk and Mordy, but the executionw as different. 3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Verdant Brink wasn't about Mordremoth, it was about The Pact struggling to recoup from the fleet being taken down. Auric Basin wasn't about Mordremoth also. It was about us finding Tarir, Aurene's egg, and learning about Glint's plan. Tangled Depths wasn't about Mordremoth either. It was about us finding Rata Novus, and learning about how we could possible beat the dragons. Yes, and everything happened because there was a clear buildup: 1. Scarlet doing stuff to awaken Mordy. (=setup) 2. The protagonists finding out that Scarlet wasn't just doing random things. (=payoff) 3. The protagonists prepare to tackle Mordy (=setup by facing them with a hard task to overcome) 4. The pact getting obliterated by Mordy, because the protagonists didn't anticipate Mordys power (= payoff by failure, getting the payer invested by having them to want to know what happens next, wich serves as a new setup) 5. The protagonists reassemble at verdant brink, after Mordys attack, making allies along the way (road to the finale) 6. Facing Mordremoth, after having suffered a humilating defeat (payoff again) The structure is clear, the execution received more time and effort than IBS and everything was actually connected. Unlike Primordus in LS3 and IBS. 3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Vabbi wasn't about Kralk. It was about us trying to stop Balthazar from taking Kralk's power! Jahai wasn't about Kralk. It was about the various groups of Elona coming together to find a new normal after Joko's fall, and Aurene having a scary vision which frighted her! Well, I gotta agree here. But thats due to how LS4 handled Joko, and then did a switcheroo by Aurene-Ex-Machina so she could have her fake death. 3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Thunderhead Peaks wasn't about Kralk directly, it was about us looking for a weapon to kill the Elder dragon, and Aurene coming face to face with her vision. Yes, killing the Elder Dragon that caused Problem. Kralk. But thats what I meant with I don't like the execution here. The turn after Jokos death threw me, and many other people off. I don't say Joko should have survived, but his death shouldn't have been an subvesrion of expectations. 3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: For both Mordremoth and Kralk, in HoT, and LWS4, one could argue the releases weren't about them, they were just set pieces in other stories. For Kralk? Maybe, depending on how you feel about the Joko-stuff. But after Jokos death, it was clearly about Kralk. For Mordy? No. Not at all. Everything, from LS1 to the end of HoT was clearly structured out to be centered around him. Even when he wasn't revealed. Looking back, we can see WHY Scarlet did what she did. Setup and payoff have been managed way better, in an organized, consecutive and coherent way. It would have been different if Mordy was put to sleep at the end of HoT, only to be awakened in another story waaaaaaaay later, geeting swooped away simultaneously with the at the time prevalent villain. In that case, the setup would have been missing, because he was dealt with for the time being, and nothing hinted to him being an acute threat in the meantime. 3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Mordremoth, Kralk, Jormag, and Primordus, all got treated the exact same way, across each of their three major story maps before the actual fight map. As I explained, they did not. Execution, pacing and coherence matter. Having dots is nice and all, but how they are connected will decide over how well the story works. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said: Except, it was. The primordus threat in LS3 got dealt with in LS3. Primordus rising again is a new chapter. Except it didn't get dealt with in LWS3 because Primordus was still alive, and his forces were still out there. Saying the Primordus threat in LWS3 got dealt with is like saying the Jormag threat was dealt with in LWS4, when IBS exist. That isn't how narratives work. You are arguing that just because you deal with one of a badguy's plan in chapter 3 of a book, that him still being the badguy in chapter 10 is a whole new story... that isn't how it works, anywhere. Its the same plot. Chapters don't exist in isolation. 1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said: Yes, at a different point. Thats the thing with storytelling, you have to manage your highs and lows, and when and where to incluse wich character in order for tension to rise, anticipations being created and the payoff feeling satisfying. While this is true, this ignores the player's own part in making up their own unrealistic expectations about things after stewing in their own headcanon for years about how they think it should be done. I can safely say that like 85-90% of the fan ideas I've seen for how the story should have gone/will go in the future, would have ever happened, because, if you take a step back, and really look at them, they simply don't make sense. 1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said: Now you start to see the problem everyone else describes. The transition from Charr Civil war towards "Jormag bad" was simply terrible. Both in execution and pacing. Additionally, the Civil War Story threat felt lackluster in hindsight, because it served as a leadup for something disappointing. People notice this. What about any of those stories was bad exactly? I don't really see what was terrible about the transition from the Charr civil war to Jormag being the main villain. They had set this up back in Bound By Blood with the Jormag weapons in Bangar's office, the Boneskinner tracks outside his office window, the Ice construct and storm protecting him in the mountain pass, and OFC everything that happens in Bjora. It was a fairly well built up/executed transition over like 10 months. 1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said: No. Both were a clear focus and driving force behind stuff that happend. I am not going to say that I liked some of the directions with Kralk and Mordy, but the executionw as different. Just as Primordus is the clear and driving force behind Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and Champions, like Jormag was for Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood. 1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said: The structure is clear, the execution received more time and effort than IBS and everything was actually connected. Unlike Primordus in LS3 and IBS. And the structure and execution of the Primordus plot, and IBS, was clear and connected, going back to core, and amounted to a lot more then Mordrmeoth, or Kralkatoriik got. Primordus and Jormag have been awake since before the game begins, we encounter notable forces of their minions back in core, and we see from both the Asura and Norn how these people have been affected by the dragons. In HoT we find Rata Novus, a lost ancient Asuran city built by Asura who stayed underground to combat the dragons, which we use to discover every dragon has a unique weakness. After Mordremoth's death, Primordus and Jormag's minions gain new powers from the dead dragons, and we begin studying them to learn about these changes, and find any weaknesses. Due to the death of his mother, and wanting to continue her legacy, Braham searches for the scroll needed to crack Jormag's tooth, putting him on the path of becoming the Norn of Prophecy. Using the technology of the Rata Novans, and the data we collected from the minions, Taimi is able to determine that Jormag and Primordus are each other's weaknesses, and devices a machine to channel their energies at each other to kill them. Balthazar steals the machine so he can take the Dragon's power for himself, and we stop him from doing so because we discover that the world will end if another dragon dies. The resulting backlash puts Jormag and Primordus to sleep. After the high magical release caused by the deaths of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik, Jormag and Primordus being to stir once more. Jormag, wanting to be free of its bond to Primordus, and seeing how effective the Commander has been for Aurene, manipulates Bangar Ruinbringer, and Ryland Steelcatcher, into coming to it, and making an army for it. Our journey through the old Norn lands after Bangar puts Braham in the position to be helped by the Spirits of the Wild, so he can be prepared to become the Norn of Prophecy. While we are able to catch up to Bangar, and put a stop to his plans, he was already able to convert a sizeable army for Jormag, and bring about Jormag's awakening. Due to their twined nature, Jormag's awakening triggers Primordus' awakening, who beings to send Destroyers to the surface in mass to burn as much as possible, since he gains more power the more they burn. Our heroes scramble to deal with Primordus' invasion, while the effects of being the Norn of prophecy finally being to manifest in Braham with his desotryer sense power. Braham, following advice from a fellow Norn, and a somewhat cryptic metaphor from Owl, finally realizes what he needs to do as the Norn of Prophecy, using himself, and the Spirits of the Wild, to become Primordus' champion, and direct the dragon's power against Jormag. With Braham directing Primordus, the two dragons are finally forced to face off directly, resulting in both Dragon's destruction, as originally stated back in LWS3. We are talking about literal years worth of development/payoff on plot points spanning core, HoT, LWS3, and IBS, in a meta narrative that arguable puts Zhaitan's story to shame. and is much longer/more comprehensive then what Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik got. There is nothing not connected, or massively built up, about it... unless you just forgot most of the game. 1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said: Well, I gotta agree here. But thats due to how LS4 handled Joko, and then did a switcheroo by Aurene-Ex-Machina so she could have her fake death. A Dues-Ex-Machina is a narrative device where something comes out of nowhere. Aurene's death, and resurrection, didn't come out of nowhere. It was established previously that Aurene had a vision of her death, Aurene had already eaten Joko, and even before the battle in which she died we see Awakened Sylvari who explintly point out that Dragon powers don't block Joko's undeath powers. This is a clearly set up narrative beat, and the exact opposite of a dues ex machina. Using buzzword terms doesn't make an argument. 1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said: Yes, killing the Elder Dragon that caused Problem. Kralk. But thats what I meant with I don't like the execution here. The turn after Jokos death threw me, and many other people off. I don't say Joko should have survived, but his death shouldn't have been an subvesrion of expectations. Joko, even back in GW1, was a massive idiot, who fundamentally failed at everything he tried to do. And all through PoF we see that his empire is a paper dragon of narcissism, bordering collapse, and riddled from within with dissenters, and opposing factions. It was pretty obvious he was going to get the boot. But this just ties into what I said earlier about people building up thier own expectations, most of which doesn't actually fit with what was already established, and then being disappointed that things didn't turn out a way they never would have. 1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said: For Kralk? Maybe, depending on how you feel about the Joko-stuff. But after Jokos death, it was clearly about Kralk. For Mordy? No. Not at all. Everything, from LS1 to the end of HoT was clearly structured out to be centered around him. Even when he wasn't revealed. Looking back, we can see WHY Scarlet did what she did. Setup and payoff have been managed way better, in an organized, consecutive and coherent way. It would have been different if Mordy was put to sleep at the end of HoT, only to be awakened in another story waaaaaaaay later, geeting swooped away simultaneously with the at the time prevalent villain. In that case, the setup would have been missing, because he was dealt with for the time being, and nothing hinted to him being an acute threat in the meantime. And by this same argument Jormag and Primordus had the same build up. And there was hints of them being a threat in the meantime, the very fact they exist as established back in the base game, and their twined nature established back in LWS3. Again, yu can't just ignore LWS3 like it doesn't exist/didn't happen, and try to hold IBS in a vacuum, that isn't how narratives work anywhere. 1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said: As I explained, they did not. Execution, pacing and coherence matter. Having dots is nice and all, but how they are connected will decide over how well the story works. And as I just showed further up in the post, they did. They had the same execution, pacing, and coherence, as the other dragons. Really, from the rest of your post, it just seems like you forgot LWS3 existed, and everything that happened reading the dragons in it, and so just acted like IBS was all of the story... when it clearly isn't. Edited July 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 17 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Convenient how you ignore all the core story arcs/maps/events his minions were in 😅 You call that "story"? 🤣 Seriously, there was nothing to Primordus other than: we know he's about fire, we've learnt he is dumb and a brute force, Balthazar wanted his powers. That is all second hand information, there was no content that involved him personally really. Perhaps you should do some research on the meaning of "character writing." 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said: You call that "story"? Seriously, there was nothing to Primordus other than: we know he's about fire, we've learnt he is dumb and a brute force, Balthazar wanted his powers. That is all second hand information, there was no content that involved him personally really. Perhaps you should do some research on the meaning of "character writing." Yes, its called visual storytelling, i.e. the act of telling a story, or progressing a plot, via purely visuals means, rather then relying on normal storytelling methods like direct dialog. Its pretty common in any visual medium, especially video games. And companies like Bethesda have been famous for it for years. the whole point of events in a game like GW2 is to tell mini stories about the world, without having to make it all cutscenes/dialog. And what you just described about Primordus could be applied to Zhaitan and Mordremoth as well. There was no content involving them directly besides the time we killed them in the first fight we had with them, and their motivations were "they are about the elements they are obviously about, and want to consume everything". Jormag's the only elder Dragon to get a motivation beyond that. The sole thing Kralk had was the literal last minute reveal that he has mental torment, which ultimately changed nothing about his character or motivations, it just made them more severe. Edited July 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imba.9451 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Except it didn't get dealt with in LWS3 because Primordus was still alive, and his forces were still out there. Except ist was. The threat was dealt with, even if temporarily. The tension curve did flatten after that, regarding Primordus. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Saying the Primordus threat in LWS3 got dealt with is like saying the Jormag threat was dealt with in LWS4, when IBS exist. That isn't how narratives work. Yes, it is. Building and releasing tension is a crucial part of building an engaging narrative. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: You are arguing that just because you deal with one of a badguy's plan in chapter 3 of a book, that him still being the badguy in chapter 10 is a whole new story... that isn't how it works, anywhere. Its the same plot. Chapters don't exist in isolation. They don't exist in isolaton, correct. But unless they are connected in a well written way, looking back at stuff doesn't mean much. Again, tension. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: While this is true, this ignores the player's own part in making up their own unrealistic expectations about things after stewing in their own headcanon for years about how they think it should be done. I can safely say that like 85-90% of the fan ideas I've seen for how the story should have gone/will go in the future, would have ever happened, because, if you take a step back, and really look at them, they simply don't make sense. I agree on a basic level, that expectation play a huge role in how the execution can be perceived. However, there are some basic rules that make storytelling work. I am not following all the fan theories here on the forum, so I can not take those into context. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: What about any of those stories was bad exactly? I don't really see what was terrible about the transition from the Charr civil war to Jormag being the main villain. They had set this up back in Bound By Blood with the Jormag weapons in Bangar's office, the Boneskinner tracks outside his office window, the Ice construct and storm protecting him in the mountain pass, and OFC everything that happens in Bjora. It was a fairly well built up/executed transition over like 10 months. It's not the transition FROM the civil war towards Jormag that I consider bad. In fact, it was really promising. What came afterwards was what made the transition feel pointless or lacking, considering everything after that was executed poorly. (Heck, I really liked the Charr themed story, despite me hating Charr with a burning passion.) And when something like this happens, players start to get confronted with thoughts along the line of "We had all of that, only leading to THIS conclusion?" A good end is crucial for a good story. (And I do not mean happy end.) Else, eversthing that happened beforehand feels shallow like a waste of time. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Just as Primordus is the clear and driving force behind Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and Champions, like Jormag was for Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood. Like I said, there was a narrative cut between LS3 and LS4. Yes, the threat wasn't completely dealt with, but the narrative failed to re-intruduce Primordus as a big player on the main stage. Instead it went : "Hey, remember big lava boy? He is back!" 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: And the structure and execution of the Primordus plot, and IBS, was clear and connected, going back to core, and amounted to a lot more then Mordrmeoth, or Kralkatoriik got. I made my point regarding this clear in my last point. And I aslo added how a narrative change of perspective can and will change the tension level regarding a certain plot-thread. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Primordus and Jormag have been awake since before the game begins, we encounter notable forces of their minions back in core, and we see from both the Asura and Norn how these people have been affected by the dragons. In HoT we find Rata Novus, a lost ancient Asuran city built by Asura who stayed underground to combat the dragons, which we use to discover every dragon has a unique weakness. Thats backround Information, not the focus of the story. Worldbuilding and plot are not the same. They can overlap, but thats not a given. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: After Mordremoth's death, Primordus and Jormag's minions gain new powers from the dead dragons, and we begin studying them to learn about these changes, and find any weaknesses. I didn't even adress the dual-power thing that went on for a short time and got dropped, but I honsetly don't take too much issue with that. But one could make further points of criticism here. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Due to the death of his mother, and wanting to continue her legacy, Braham searches for the scroll needed to crack Jormag's tooth, putting him on the path of becoming the Norn of Prophecy. That was a buildup, that got resolved with the sleep-device-thingy, just like Primordus, ultimately leading nowhere except some character development for braham. (Wich, in itself, was terrible. Braham isn't hated without reason.) 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Using the technology of the Rata Novans, and the data we collected from the minions, Taimi is able to determine that Jormag and Primordus are each other's weaknesses, and devices a machine to channel their energies at each other to kill them. Again, buildup, but WAY too early to keep the tension alive until they finally clashed. Thus lacking satisfying payoff. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Balthazar steals the machine so he can take the Dragon's power for himself, and we stop him from doing so because we discover that the world will end if another dragon dies. The resulting backlash puts Jormag and Primordus to sleep. Regarding the tension curve, this is where it flattens in regard to Primordus and Jormag, and it starts rising regarding Balthasar. (As intended, because Anet wanted to direct the story towards him.) 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Jormag, wanting to be free of its bond to Primordus, and seeing how effective the Commander has been for Aurene, manipulates Bangar Ruinbringer, and Ryland Steelcatcher, into coming to it, and making an army for it. As menationed, I do not mind this setup at all. It`s promising and gets people curious, on how this dragon tries to not deal with things by brutal force. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Our journey through the old Norn lands after Bangar puts Braham in the position to be helped by the Spirits of the Wild, so he can be prepared to become the Norn of Prophecy. While we are able to catch up to Bangar, and put a stop to his plans, he was already able to convert a sizeable army for Jormag, and bring about Jormag's awakening. Again, so far so good. No problem here. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Due to their twined nature, Jormag's awakening triggers Primordus' awakening, who beings to send Destroyers to the surface in mass to burn as much as possible, since he gains more power the more they burn. Just an intermission: Where is it staed that Primordus gets stronger the more stuff he burns? Genuine question. Regarding storytelling, this also isn't the problem for me. It is how it is executed in DRM's, wich in itself are a pandoras box of poor implementation of storybeats. Basically, all there was: "Some dragon minions attack. Stop them." 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Our heroes scramble to deal with Primordus' invasion, while the effects of being the Norn of prophecy finally being to manifest in Braham with his desotryer sense power. Braham, following advice from a fellow Norn, and a somewhat cryptic metaphor from Owl, finally realizes what he needs to do as the Norn of Prophecy, using himself, and the Spirits of the Wild, to become Primordus' champion, and direct the dragon's power against Jormag. With Braham directing Primordus, the two dragons are finally forced to face off directly, resulting in both Dragon's destruction, as originally stated back in LWS3. Yes, in LS3. But assuming the tension level was still high and writing around this assumption is simply not working. Stuff happened in between, you can't keep tension high regarding another story thread for all this time. You need to establish the threat again, and in better ways than some DRM's that lacked so much. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: We are talking about literal years worth of development/payoff on plot points spanning core, HoT, LWS3, and IBS, in a meta narrative that arguable puts Zhaitan's story to shame. and is much longer/more comprehensive then what Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik got. There is nothing not connected, or massively built up, about it... unless you just forgot most of the game. It's not about forgetting. Stop implying this. It's about simple storytelling techniques. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: A Dues-Ex-Machina is a narrative device where something comes out of nowhere. Aurene's death, and resurrection, didn't come out of nowhere. It was established previously that Aurene had a vision of her death, Aurene had already eaten Joko, and even before the battle in which she died we see Awakened Sylvari who explintly point out that Dragon powers don't block Joko's undeath powers. This is a clearly set up narrative beat, and the exact opposite of a dues ex machina. Yes, but that story was planned beforehand. How the story unfolds was planned before the release, obviously. Thus, it was planned to have a cheap fake-death for some cheap sads. And they needed to give Aurene Lich powers for that. Instead of actively using her in the plans to overthrow Joko, she simply appeared after the Player defeated Joko, but to no avail. The situation seems hopeless, the Lich cannot be stopped, BOOM, Aurene Ex Machina. It's a textbook example of this device. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Using buzzword terms doesn't make an argument. Calling it buzzword doesn`t make it a counter argument either. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Joko, even back in GW1, was a massive idiot, who fundamentally failed at everything he tried to do. And all through PoF we see that his empire is a paper dragon of narcissism, bordering collapse, and riddled from within with dissenters, and opposing factions. Yes, but a powerful Idiot. Some of the best villains imho are the "bumbling idiot" archetypes, that appear to be incompetent, but clearly know how to get kitten done. And Joko got kitten done big time, even after his return from the Underworld. Additionally, his monologue before getting Aurene'd suggests that he is aware of his act up to a certain degree. This is a very important point that should not be forgotten. He managed to rise in power and stay in power for hundreds of years. Just because it is obvious by story expectation, that he would get the boot doesn't mean that he as a character was weak. You yourself made it clear, how player expectations can get in the way of things. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: It was pretty obvious he was going to get the boot. But this just ties into what I said earlier about people building up thier own expectations, most of which doesn't actually fit with what was already established, and then being disappointed that things didn't turn out a way they never would have. This backfires on you as well though, due to the ponts made earlier. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: And by this same argument Jormag and Primordus had the same build up. And there was hints of them being a threat in the meantime, the very fact they exist as established back in the base game, and their twined nature established back in LWS3. No, just existing is NOT establishing a threat as a focus of the narrative. Thats not how storytelling works. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Again, yu can't just ignore LWS3 like it doesn't exist/didn't happen, and try to hold IBS in a vacuum, that isn't how narratives work anywhere. I never did, don't twist what I said. It's how you connect the dots. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: And as I just showed further up in the post, they did. They had the same execution, pacing, and coherence, as the other dragons. And as I showed, they did not, simply because their narrative was broken into separated parts that got treated as if they belong together, as if it's one story thread with nothing in between, as if tensionwas always high. Wich it wasn't. 41 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Really, from the rest of your post, it just seems like you forgot LWS3 existed, and everything that happened reading the dragons in it, and so just acted like IBS was all of the story... when it clearly isn't. No. I made my point pretty clear, that it`s about how you connect the dots. You seem to suggest that people simply don't know what happened... even when this clearly isn't the case. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 3 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Yes, its called visual storytelling, i.e. the act of telling a story, or progressing a plot, via purely visuals means Again, we only had two instances were we saw Primordus. That's not visual story-telling, and it certainly didn't tell us anything about the character. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Except ist was. The threat was dealt with, even if temporarily. The tension curve did flatten after that, regarding Primordus. You can't "deal" with the threat if the threat is still around, and still a threat. Putting an Elder Dragon to sleep isn't dealing with a threat, its only delaying it, because them still being alive means their minions can keep attacking things, and that they will invariably awaken again to cause more damage. You are trying to boil down any sort of delay as "dealing" with the problem, and that simply isn't how narratives work. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Yes, it is. Building and releasing tension is a crucial part of building an engaging narrative. Which they did. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: They don't exist in isolaton, correct. But unless they are connected in a well written way, looking back at stuff doesn't mean much. Again, tension. And the way they were connected was well written, following up on information, and lore, that has already been established when not only putting them to sleep, but also their re awakening, and later actions. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: I agree on a basic level, that expectation play a huge role in how the execution can be perceived. However, there are some basic rules that make storytelling work. I am not following all the fan theories here on the forum, so I can not take those into context. And Anet follow those basic rules. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: It's not the transition FROM the civil war towards Jormag that I consider bad. In fact, it was really promising. What came afterwards was what made the transition feel pointless or lacking, considering everything after that was executed poorly. (Heck, I really liked the Charr themed story, despite me hating Charr with a burning passion.) And when something like this happens, players start to get confronted with thoughts along the line of "We had all of that, only leading to THIS conclusion?" A good end is crucial for a good story. (And I do not mean happy end.) Else, eversthing that happened beforehand feels shallow like a waste of time. What about the ending was bad? Champions involved a massive, continent wide, invasion by both Primordus and Jormag, resulting in more damage then we have seen from any other Elder Dragon. And the final Elder Dragon fight itself is exactly the same size/scope of the Mouth of Mordremoth fight, and resulted in the death of both dragons in the way LWS3 stated they would die. And Braham fulfilled his role exactly as was set up back in LWS3, and carried throughout IBS. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Like I said, there was a narrative cut between LS3 and LS4. Yes, the threat wasn't completely dealt with, but the narrative failed to re-intruduce Primordus as a big player on the main stage. Instead it went : "Hey, remember big lava boy? He is back!" How is continent wide invasion, that targets everything from Brisban, to LA, to the Flame Citadel not a re-introduction? Not to mention the Jormag's blood achievement in Jormag Rising talking about the two dragons fighting previously, and the "Confer with Bangar" talks, and the game wide earth quakes, between Jormag Rising and Champions, where Bangar/Jormag talk about Primordus stirring, and we literally FEEL his stirring affecting the world, as a lead up to Champions. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Thats backround Information, not the focus of the story. Worldbuilding and plot are not the same. They can overlap, but thats not a given. Except it is a focus in the story, the dragon's effect on these races is what directly led to their actions to found Rata Novus, the tooth prophecy, and other factors that directly affected the plot. That is the definition of being a focus of the story. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: That was a buildup, that got resolved with the sleep-device-thingy, just like Primordus, ultimately leading nowhere except some character development for braham. (Wich, in itself, was terrible. Braham isn't hated without reason.) Except it wasn't resolved by them being put back to sleep, since Jormag wasn't dead, and Braham still hadn't fulfilled his role as the Norn of Prophecy. That's why it continued to play a part in IBS. Again, you are counting any sort of narrative pause as a resolution, when that isn't how narratives work. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Again, buildup, but WAY too early to keep the tension alive until they finally clashed. Thus lacking satisfying payoff. I guess if you have no sense of long term story telling. Its fairly common in long running TV shows, or movie/game series, to have long running narratives simmering in the background for years, in some cases over a decade, before finally resolving them. That's part of good narrative design. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Regarding the tension curve, this is where it flattens in regard to Primordus and Jormag, and it starts rising regarding Balthasar. (As intended, because Anet wanted to direct the story towards him.) Well yes, the point was to flatten it off there so they could go on to something else. That was the point. IBS brought a further escalation by having Jormag and Primordus being taking actions far above their previous(Jormag's manipulation of Bangar into the Charr Civil War, Primordus' massive invasion of the continent) as a means to reintroduce build up. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Just an intermission: Where is it staed that Primordus gets stronger the more stuff he burns? Genuine question. Regarding storytelling, this also isn't the problem for me. It is how it is executed in DRM's, wich in itself are a pandoras box of poor implementation of storybeats. Basically, all there was: "Some dragon minions attack. Stop them." Well A. The online magazine they put out before IBS began states Primordus' spheres are fire and conflagration. Aka, fire, and making bigger fire. B. In the Metrica province DRM Taimi is investigating unique destroyer energy, and specifically mentions that the Destroyers actions seemingly make no sense, and that all the Destroyers read as Primordus when they attack, and postulates that their connection to him increases as they burn. C. This is picked up in the Gendarren Fields DRM where Primordus seemingly ties to attack LA, only to actually attack the Ascalonian settlement. At the end Jhavi and Marj point out how the attack served no real tactical purpose, and Primrodus is just trying to burn anything he can(tying back into what Taimi said in the Metrica DRM) D. Going back to even LWS3, the whole Ember Bay release was about stopping Primordus and his minions from causing a volcanic eruption, because said eruption would greatly empower his Destroyers, as more fire = stronger destroyers. And what you describe about the DRMs describes pretty much everything involving all of the Dragons. So all of the Elder dragons were implemented poorly? 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Yes, in LS3. But assuming the tension level was still high and writing around this assumption is simply not working. Stuff happened in between, you can't keep tension high regarding another story thread for all this time. You need to establish the threat again, and in better ways than some DRM's that lacked so much. What exactly do the DRMs lack to establish threat? How is threat established to you? Having the Elder Dragons launch a massive invasion of the known world, attacking numerous important/notable area, to the point numerous races have to band together to fight it, is no different then Zhaitan's attack on Claw Island back in core, which was the big threat establishing moment for Zhaitain... just with Primordus and Joramg's being on a larger scale. And yes you can keep tension high in a sotry for this long, its done all the time in media, in the same way Anet did it. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: It's not about forgetting. Stop implying this. It's about simple storytelling techniques. Which you haven't shown they didn't follow. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Yes, but that story was planned beforehand. How the story unfolds was planned before the release, obviously. Thus, it was planned to have a cheap fake-death for some cheap sads. And they needed to give Aurene Lich powers for that. Instead of actively using her in the plans to overthrow Joko, she simply appeared after the Player defeated Joko, but to no avail. The situation seems hopeless, the Lich cannot be stopped, BOOM, Aurene Ex Machina. It's a textbook example of this device. Aurene did help in the fight against Joko though, she is there on the open world map. And dragons taking on the magic ofthe thigns they eat was established back in LS3, and with Kralk in LWS4. So no it isn't an Aurene ex machina by any measure. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Calling it buzzword doesn`t make it a counter argument either. Pointing out that your argument uses buzzwords, instead of substance, does however. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: Yes, but a powerful Idiot. Some of the best villains imho are the "bumbling idiot" archetypes, that appear to be incompetent, but clearly know how to get kitten done. And Joko got kitten done big time, even after his return from the Underworld. Additionally, his monologue before getting Aurene'd suggests that he is aware of his act up to a certain degree. This is a very important point that should not be forgotten. He managed to rise in power and stay in power for hundreds of years. Just because it is obvious by story expectation, that he would get the boot doesn't mean that he as a character was weak. You yourself made it clear, how player expectations can get in the way of things. Except Joko wasn't powerful. He was immortal, but not powerful, which are two separate things. At what point do we ever see Joko do anything impressive with his magical power like desotry a city himself, or anything of that sort? Never. In fact, GW1 hammers in the fact that he ISN'T powerful by having him totally fail to escape captivity for hundreds of years following his defeat. Joko was never powerful, he just has an interesting gimmick. And we see from his total failure to wipe out the Sunspears, the Order of Shadows, or the dissident movement, and his complete failure to take Amnoon despite trying for years and imposing a blockade on them, that his empire wasn't powerful either. It was a completely hollow paper dragon based entirely around pretend, and not actual force. This is exactly what I mean about fandoms building elaborate fictions about aspect of a series that the series itself never supported, and in many ways actively didn't support, and being disappointed that it didn't turn out in a way that it never was going to turn out. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: This backfires on you as well though, due to the ponts made earlier. Except I'm not doing this, so it doesn't backfire on me since it doesn't apply to me. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: No, just existing is NOT establishing a threat as a focus of the narrative. Thats not how storytelling works. And they didn't just do that. That had him and his forces attempt to blow numerous volcanoes(Mount Maelstrom, Ember Bay, Draconis Mons) to cause massive destruction, and empower himself. How is "attempting to cause a massive volcano to blow" not a establishing of threat? Its honestly one of the most extreme things we've seen a Dragon do. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: And as I showed, they did not, simply because their narrative was broken into separated parts that got treated as if they belong together, as if it's one story thread with nothing in between, as if tensionwas always high. Wich it wasn't. Tension does not always have to be high in a story for it to be a continuous story. Every story has moments of escalation, and deescalation, throughout, so consumers don't get fatigued. Hell, even music runs this way, often starting off slower, building up to intensity, staying intense for part of it, slowing back down for a bit, then going back to being intense before the final slowdown at the end. 4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said: No. I made my point pretty clear, that it`s about how you connect the dots. You seem to suggest that people simply don't know what happened... even when this clearly isn't the case. And they connected the dots fairly well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said: Again, we only had two instances were we saw Primordus. That's not visual story-telling, and it certainly didn't tell us anything about the character. We only had one instance where we saw Zhaitan and Mordremoth, aka the fight where we kill them. And we only saw Jormag once before we killed in Dragonstorm, just like Primrodus. Kralk has always been the odd dragon out with how much we saw it before we killed it. Visual story telling on something has nothing to do with seeing the thing itself. Seeing those who serve it, and/or the result of its actions, is itself visual story telling in itself. You could have a game where you are hunting some serial killer, or powerful mercenary, and never see them until the very end of the game. But taking the time to create areas full of mangled corpses, destroyed robot guards, and other such carnage, creates visual story telling on the serial kill/merc, by showing us how powerful they are, how extreme they are willing to go to achieve their goals, etc.Giving us insight into the character without the need for seeing the person themselves, or having dialog talking about them. This is how most of the Elder Dragons in GW2 have been handled. We rarely if ever see them directly, and most of what we learn from them comes form indirect methods such as seeing the wide scope of their minions, the devastation their minions bring about, or attempt to bring about. Primordus was no different from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Jormag, in this regard. We know how little Primordus cares for mortal life from its unwillingness to corrupt it, unlike the other Elder Dragons. We know how of its reach by how widespread its minions are in the game world. We know how far its willing to go to win from its various attempts to cause massive ecological damage via volcanic explosions. We know its general battle strategy from its priority of attacking lesser defended targets, regardless of tactical value, to gain more power from burning. We know how much even the other Elder Dragons feared it from how far Jormag was willing to go to try to tip the scales in its favor. We know it fears Aurene's power from its attempt to kill her right as she hatched. Edited July 21, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imba.9451 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: You can't "deal" with the threat if the threat is still around, and still a threat. Putting an Elder Dragon to sleep isn't dealing with a threat, its only delaying it, because them still being alive means their minions can keep attacking things, and that they will invariably awaken again to cause more damage. You are trying to boil down any sort of delay as "dealing" with the problem, and that simply isn't how narratives work. You take my wording way too literal. With "dealing" I obviously meant temporarily. They are not threat anymore for the time being. This is made clear for the characters, as well as the players. Thus, tension did decline, the two Dragoins took a step back from the main stage and this part of their story arc was put on hold. And in order to get it moving again, you cant just pull them out of the drwaer and act as if they were never gone, as if their threat was looming all over Tyria. Because at the time, it wasn't. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Which they did. And the way they were connected was well written, following up on information, and lore, that has already been established when not only putting them to sleep, but also their re awakening, and later actions. It certainly wasn't. Primordus was brought back in those throwaway DRM's, wich obviously were low-quality filler, cobbled together by a skeleton crew, desperate to get the story into a direction that permanently kills those two dragons off. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: And Anet follow those basic rules. No, they did not. Primordus was not properly reintroduced into the story. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: What about the ending was bad? Champions involved a massive, continent wide, invasion by both Primordus and Jormag, resulting in more damage then we have seen from any other Elder Dragon. And the final Elder Dragon fight itself is exactly the same size/scope of the Mouth of Mordremoth fight, and resulted in the death of both dragons in the way LWS3 stated they would die. And Braham fulfilled his role exactly as was set up back in LWS3, and carried throughout IBS. As brought up several times, it's not about WHAT happened, but how it happened. It was hasty, lacked proper pacing and had no proper payoff. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: How is continent wide invasion, that targets everything from Brisban, to LA, to the Flame Citadel not a re-introduction? Again: HOW, not WHAT. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Not to mention the Jormag's blood achievement in Jormag Rising talking about the two dragons fighting previously, Again: HOW, not WHAT. The only way we get this information is presnted in such a small achievment. An event like that should get more attention. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: and the "Confer with Bangar" talks, and the game wide earth quakes, between Jormag Rising and Champions, where Bangar/Jormag talk about Primordus stirring, and we literally FEEL his stirring affecting the world, as a lead up to Champions. Wich isn't what I have a problem with. Again, and I repeat this as often as I have to if you just count WHAT happened: It's not about WHAT happened, but HOW it happened. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Except it is a focus in the story, the dragon's effect on these races is what directly led to their actions to found Rata Novus, the tooth prophecy, and other factors that directly affected the plot. That is the definition of being a focus of the story. Oh no. What you recall is worldbuilding, and not establishing a threat as a story focus. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Except it wasn't resolved by them being put back to sleep, since Jormag wasn't dead, and Braham still hadn't fulfilled his role as the Norn of Prophecy. Except putting that narrative threat on hold, both for the player and the characters, is a temporary solution. In order to have that narrative threat gaining momentum again, it needs to be reintroduced properly - either by good writing or spectacle. DRM's had neither. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: That's why it continued to play a part in IBS. Again, you are counting any sort of narrative pause as a resolution, when that isn't how narratives work. As a temporary resolution, yes. And I explained in detail how a narration has to deal with this. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: I guess if you have no sense of long term story telling. Stop ad hominem please. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Its fairly common in long running TV shows, or movie/game series, to have long running narratives simmering in the background for years, in some cases over a decade, before finally resolving them. Long term story telling revolves around keep threats active. Let`s take a simple example in the show "The Mentalist". It's a typical crime show. But the overarching arc of Patrick Jane wanting to catch and kill Red John is brought up regulary, with a very noticeable shift of tone. Or Breaking Bad: Walther White having his Ego getting the better of him is shown regulary, until it is finally, "officially" revealed in the last episode, that he didn't do what he did for his family - he did it for himself. Something the aware watcher already noticed, due to it being shown at several occasions during the show. This is completely lacking for Primordus. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: That's part of good narrative design. Yes, it is. Sadly, it was lacking in DRM's and champions. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Well yes, the point was to flatten it off there so they could go on to something else. That was the point. IBS brought a further escalation by having Jormag and Primordus being taking actions far above their previous(Jormag's manipulation of Bangar into the Charr Civil War, Primordus' massive invasion of the continent) as a means to reintroduce build up. Wich is exactly what I said. And after flattening the curve, you need to get it in the foreground again. Either by writing, foreshadowing or spectacle. DRM's failed to deliver in spectacle, as well as in writing, as their single purpose was shouting exposition: "PRIMORDUS IS BACK!" 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Well A. The online magazine they put out before IBS began states Primordus' spheres are fire and conflagration. Aka, fire, and making bigger fire. B. In the Metrica province DRM Taimi is investigating unique destroyer energy, and specifically mentions that the Destroyers actions seemingly make no sense, and that all the Destroyers read as Primordus when they attack, and postulates that their connection to him increases as they burn. C. This is picked up in the Gendarren Fields DRM where Primordus seemingly ties to attack LA, only to actually attack the Ascalonian settlement. At the end Jhavi and Marj point out how the attack served no real tactical purpose, and Primrodus is just trying to burn anything he can(tying back into what Taimi said in the Metrica DRM) D. Going back to even LWS3, the whole Ember Bay release was about stopping Primordus and his minions from causing a volcanic eruption, because said eruption would greatly empower his Destroyers, as more fire = stronger destroyers. I can't argue against this, but it feels shallow, due to how poorly explained it was ingame. It's way too open for interpretation. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: And what you describe about the DRMs describes pretty much everything involving all of the Dragons. So all of the Elder dragons were implemented poorly? Nope. As I explained with Mordremoth. Don't put words in my mouth. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: What exactly do the DRMs lack to establish threat? How is threat established to you? Having the Elder Dragons launch a massive invasion of the known world, attacking numerous important/notable area, to the point numerous races have to band together to fight it, is no different then Zhaitan's attack on Claw Island back in core, which was the big threat establishing moment for Zhaitain... just with Primordus and Joramg's being on a larger scale. Yes, and Jormag and Primordus did their stuff in the span of a few DRM's, while Zhaitan at least attempted to feel like a cohesive, organized threat. I have my gripes with Zhaitans story, but cohesion is not one of it. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: And yes you can keep tension high in a sotry for this long, its done all the time in media, in the same way Anet did it. Which you haven't shown they didn't follow. I did. And Anet didn't. They did not keep those threats active in the slightest, they simply reactivated it. Dragon bad. Dragon sleep, cuz we want balthazar story. Then we want Kralk story. Now we need new story. Gotta make Dragons wakey wakey. I don't mind how Jormag was reintroduced. I even liked it. But Primordus? He was just there all of a sudden. Because Ice and fire are opposites, hurr durr. You can feel how the writers went with theme over substance. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Aurene did help in the fight against Joko though, she is there on the open world map. And dragons taking on the magic ofthe thigns they eat was established back in LS3, and with Kralk in LWS4. So no it isn't an Aurene ex machina by any measure. And yet, she just appeared after we defeated Joko, only that he didn't die and managed to stasis us, probably capable of killing us. The mighty commander. Then he get's Aurene'd. That is a prime example of Deus Ex Machina. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Pointing out that your argument uses buzzwords, instead of substance, does however. Sadly, you failed to do yo. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Except Joko wasn't powerful. He was immortal, but not powerful, which are two separate things. At what point do we ever see Joko do anything impressive with his magical power like desotry a city himself, or anything of that sort? Never. In fact, GW1 hammers in the fact that he ISN'T powerful by having him totally fail to escape captivity for hundreds of years following his defeat. Joko was never powerful, he just has an interesting gimmick. And we see from his total failure to wipe out the Sunspears, the Order of Shadows, or the dissident movement, and his complete failure to take Amnoon despite trying for years and imposing a blockade on them, that his empire wasn't powerful either. It was a completely hollow paper dragon based entirely around pretend, and not actual force. Wich isn't true at all. Yes, he is some kind of comedic relief - but assuming that this means he is a joke in the lore as well is simply missing the point. First, he is a Lich. He keeps thousands, probably even more, minions alive all the time. He conquers Elona. And yes, there is some resistance left, but thats like saying every militarisic leader is a joke because he could not eliminate ALL the resistance. Some will always slip through. And his fractal shows how utterly annihilated the sunspears got by him. Even one of their most powerful Dervishes, Amala, could not stop him and his minions with the power of all the gods combined. I'd say, apart from Dragons, he is the potentially most overpowered thing in the story so far. And again, his final monologue did show that he was totally aware of his act. He was alot smarter than people gave him credit for up to that point. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: This is exactly what I mean about fandoms building elaborate fictions about aspect of a series that the series itself never supported, and in many ways actively didn't support, and being disappointed that it didn't turn out in a way that it never was going to turn out. In order for you to dismiss Joko as a powerful adversary, you have to dismiss everything I wrote about his powers, his achievements and his dialogue. Wich is basically denying what happened ingame. This isn't about player expectations, it's watching what happens in the medium you engage with. There is actually not much room for interpretation on this. The ONLY thing that could kill him was a Dragon. Even the game made it clear, that the commander, together with several mighty heroes, was no match when Joko decided to go serious. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Except I'm not doing this, so it doesn't backfire on me since it doesn't apply to me. It does. You pre-conceived notion that Joko is weak steams from the expectation that his bumbling attitude somehow equals him being a joke, both in terms of power and in terms of how much of a threat he is. Wich, as it turns out, is simply wrong. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: And they didn't just do that. That had him and his forces attempt to blow numerous volcanoes(Mount Maelstrom, Ember Bay, Draconis Mons) to cause massive destruction, and empower himself. How is "attempting to cause a massive volcano to blow" not a establishing of threat? This happened before he got sent to sleep. And as I pointed out several times by now, he needed to be reestablished after that - just like Jormag. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: Every story has moments of escalation, and deescalation, throughout, so consumers don't get fatigued. Hell, even music runs this way, often starting off slower, building up to intensity, staying intense for part of it, slowing back down for a bit, then going back to being intense before the final slowdown at the end. Yes, thats my point. But you need to pick up the loose end before connecting it to the plot again. Wich isn't what happened with Primordus. With Jormag? Yes. But not Mordy. 1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: And they connected the dots fairly well. I'd dare to disagree, due to the points I made. It was rushed, lacked pacing, generated artificial urgency that didn't feel authentic but forced in in order to finally kill him off. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poormany.4507 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: For both Mordremoth and Kralk, in HoT, and LWS4, one could argue the releases weren't about them, they were just set pieces in other stories. Mordremoth, Kralk, Jormag, and Primordus, all got treated the exact same way, across each of their three major story maps before the actual fight map. They were the driving force behind the overall plot, but the releases themselves/maps tended to focus on smaller stories within the overall meta story, with each smaller story contributing to the overall meta story in some way. Typically about finding allies/information/weapons needed to kill the dragon. I don't see how Primordus has "three major story maps" There were barely any destroyers in Draconis Mons and nobody outside the story even mentions him on the map iirc. DRMs were obvious last second filler content made only to fill time until EoD is released with minimal effort/resources being put into them (i.e. 2012 destroyer models and health sponge enemies), and are consequently mostly disliked by the community. The only world map with a somewhat Primordus focus I can see is Ember Bay, and even then the destroyers were only confined to some parts of the map. All of the other dragons had at least 3-4 world maps that had repeatable quality content in which their minions were the vast majority (>80-90% in the other dragon's cases), if not the only enemy on the map. I don't see a single world map that has that has close to a majority for Primordus. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 30 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said: snip Just to reset what has become a massive quote wall. 1. On Joko. I never mentioned anything about his bumbling nature. I mentioned his consistent, and systemic, failures, both political, and military, dating back to before GW1. -His failure to take over Elona because he didn't know how supply lines worked, leading to his army having a weakness Turai Ossa was able to exploit. -His failure of him, and his minions, to free him after hundreds of years of imprisonment. -His total inability to reclaim his empire on his own, and needing the GW1 hero to do everything for him from getting his staff back, to bringing his Awakened back into the fold, and killing traitorous generals. -His inability to finish off the Sunspears, Order of Shadows, or the dissident movement, despite trying for decades/centuries. -His inability to take over Amnoon despite trying for decades, and even establishing a blockade against them. -The general corrupt nature of his empire, which is full of holes, civil unrest, and other issues. Joko has just been consistently shown to be an awful leader, who doesn't know what he is doing, and is totally unable to manage his empire efficiently. His bumbling nature is a result of the same stupidity that leads to all these issues, but I never argued his bumbling nature was what made him stupid. Also, Joko does not maintain thousands of undead. The Awakened are not sustained by Joko's power, hence why they didn't just all die when he did. 2. Primordus was properly reintroduced into the story. They had a literal months long conversation chain with Bangar, and Jormag, following "Jormag Rising" which at first hinted, but later directly confirmed, the larger threat on the horizon in the form of Primrodus. This being followed by game wide earthquakes across Tyria as a prelude to his awakening, which is what led to the the EoTN to talk to Aurene at the start of Champions where he finally arrived. 3. The rest of your post is making claims that Primordus' story, or Champions in general ,was rushed, that DRMs are throwaway, or that they didn't do the same thing they did for other dragons like Zhaitan, and that's just simply untrue. -The average IBS story release is about an hour long, mostly involving listening to NPCs dialog while we walk around with them and there were originally four more IBS chapters planned. Leading to a total of 4 hours of plot, which included the final dragon fight. -Between the initial attack on Rata Sum at the beginning of Champions, the Wildfire story instance with Braham, the conversations with Aurene/other characters between DRMs, the Dragonstorm fight instance, and the time it takes to do the DRMs themselves... Champions had 4 hours of story content. The only thing Champions lost compared to the original plan for IBS was the two new maps they original planned. We still have the exact same amount of story content we were going to originally. You can even look at the Champions releases, and easily see how they the four original episodes planned. The only difference is that instead of Primordus' rise being limited to the Centaur Homelands, and the larger meta fight against the two dragons being contained to Anvil Rock, its a much larger scope fight across Tyira. Which arguably helped the sotry in the long run becuase GW2 has always had an issue where And no, Primordus and Jormag didn't do their stuff a few DRMs. They did it across Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, Bitterfrost Frontier, Bjora MArches, Drizzlewood Coast, the DRMs, and Dragonstorm. About three maps + a dragon fight just like Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralatorrik got. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, Poormany.4507 said: I don't see how Primordus has "three major story maps" There were barely any destroyers in Draconis Mons and nobody outside the story even mentions him on the map iirc. DRMs were obvious last second filler content made only to fill time until EoD is released with minimal effort/resources being put into them (i.e. 2012 destroyer models and health sponge enemies), and are consequently mostly disliked by the community. The only world map with a somewhat Primordus focus I can see is Ember Bay, and even then the destroyers were only confined to some parts of the map. All of the other dragons had at least 3-4 world maps that had repeatable quality content in which their minions were the vast majority (>80-90% in the other dragon's cases), if not the only enemy on the map. I don't see a single world map that has that has close to a majority for Primordus. Are we playing the same Draconis Mons? Destroyers were all over DM. Hell, the meta for the map is even about Destroyer fissures opening up all over the map, Destroyers spewing out from them across the map, us having to fight them back, eventually leading to a dual boss fight with two Destroyer champions on islands in the boiling sea. Also, I would have to disagree with your community comment. They were disliked by the forums, yes. But the forums don't represent the community. The forums are constantly trying to prop up strikes, raids, dungeons, and fractals, as popular content people want, but all of those content formats got little to no development because something like 20% or less of the actual playerbase actively played them even when they were getting development. On most days, looking at Dungeon LFG its just dead all day. Strike LFG may have a group for the daily strike, but that goes away pretty fast. Raids are a little bit better, but its still a handful of groups of 1, all waiting there for hours. On the other hand, I do the daily DRMs often, and still wind up in full instances most of the time. And there is a few reasons why this is. 1. DRMs are shorter then some strikes, and all raids, dungeons, and any sort of significant fractal run. Making them much more fitting for the average player's available time. 2. Unlike raids, dungeons, strikes, and fractals, DRMs scale to the number of players in them. Making them significantly more available as generally available content to the normal player. 3. While Raids, and some fractals, have challenge motes, the fact that DRMs scale makes using the challenges motes in DRMs much more open to more people, allowing for a more generally playable customizable experience compared to other content types. 4. Similarly, while the other forms of content may have some randomness to them, such as fractal instabilities, which are negatives that punish players, turning people away from these content types, the DRM's randomness comes in the form of allied faction, creating many, slightly different, experiences for the DRMs that help players instead of punishing them. The fact that you can chose what faction you want, or leave it random, again adds to the overall customizable nature of the experience, which the other content modes don't have. As much as people complain that Anet "abandons" content types, they "abandoned" them for generally good reason. I.e. almost nobody liked them/played them. Whereas DRMs, or the DRM like format, is the one most likely to get continued development in the future because their design makes them far more playable/replayable for the average person. And generally seems to have worked out better in the long run for them. We see this in a larger scale in both the Dragonstorm, and Marionette, fights. Both of which have done well. And yes, there tended to be less Destroyers across the base game, and LW maps. Its been a narrative thing since core that the Stone Dwarves were keeping the vast majority of the Destroyers at bay in the depths. Whereas the other dragons have had nearly free reign in expanding their dominion on the surface where people could see them. Even still, you look at Primordus and Jormag's three story sections, and the follow the same basic pattern there. -Ember Bay/Bitterfrost are the early contact maps. Forces here tend to be lighter, and there is no really major champion here. Only smaller bosses like the Imbued Destroyer Champions in Ember Bay, or the lesser champions at the end of the Beacons of Koda meta in Bitterfrost. -Draconis Mons/Bjora Marches are the escalation chapter. Forces here tend to be thicker/more powerful. The big meta for the map ends with a fight against a more powerful/notable Dragon Champion, and more smaller champions, compared to the previous maps. Destroyer Ignis and Aestus, and the three smaller champions in Draconis Mons. The Icebrood Colossus and Drakkar, as well as the champions in Asgier's Legacy in Bjora. -The first two DRM releases/Drizzlewood Coast are the big individual fights against the dragon. A bigger invasion of forces from the dragons, leading to a longer/larger fight against them, with even more champions/important minions. Steel Warband, and the Frost Legion bosses/Claw of Jormag in Drizzlewood. The 5 Primordus focused DRMs with their named champions. The last two Champions releases took the place of the larger Dragonstorm meta akin to Dragon's stand/Dragonfall. Here we see a lore more vet/elite/normal "champion" tier enemies on both sides, akin to the first stage of the Dragon's Stand/Dragonfall map. The Dragonstorm instance itself is the same sort of scale.fight we saw at the finale of those maps, with the Mouth of Mordremoth fight for Mrody, and fighting the Hydra/Riftstalker/Wrathbringer, and crawling on Kralk's back. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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