Suggestions to bring Dungeons back

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Because the team that made the dungeons dident work or the company anymore.

 

And the code was so convilouted it was easier to start over then to try to untangle that mess.

Hence we got fractals instead.

That's no excuse to punt people out of content they enjoy. And the result for the end user was disastrous imo. It's not like this isn't a common problem in software companies that has to get solved every now and then either. But maybe this is why we got even more systems in IB XD. O dear. Maybe we're not going to see any more raids.

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Was no raids back then only newly created fractals.

So? Didn't stop them from telling us they wanted people to move out of dungeons into them.

[Linken.6345]

12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So? Didn't stop them from telling us they wanted people to move out of dungeons into them.

Yes they did tell us to move into fractals but dont chuck raids in the mix aight?

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yes they did tell us to move into fractals but dont chuck raids in the mix aight?

They told us to move into both fractals and raids. Sure, raids were not implemented at this point yet, but they were already announced, and they were planning for them. They were mentioned by name in those threads then.

[tim.4596]

I don't think it's ever gonna happen to be fair. Guild Wars 2 has established itself as an Open World MMORPG by now.

[Astralporing.1957]

True. If, however, they'd ever think about bringing some form of abandoned instanced content back, Dungeons would probably be a much better choice for that than raids.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

Nah, probably not ^

[Excursion.9752]

On 5/9/2021 at 2:37 PM, tim.4596 said:

Guild Wars 2 has established itself as an Open World MMORPG by now.

I thought this too but then the recent living world happened... Now we have Strikes, DRMs, and a instanced World Boss. 

[Robban.1256]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:48 PM, Westenev.5289 said:

Honestly, all Anet need to do to bring dungeons back is to bring explorable liquid gold reward back to 1g per path. Lots of people still played dungeons before that change.

 

But, let's not forget, Anet nerfed dungeon rewards specifically to stop people playing them. They were plenty popular, perhaps moreso than fractals, since they were seen as more casual/noob friendly.

@Khisanth.2948

The rewards aren't bad. The player-base is just bad at running dungeons outside of insular speed-clear groups. You seldom see things like various dungeon consumables, stealth, combo/blast finishers, portals and jumping puzzle mechanics outside of experienced groups any more. Complaining that dungeons aren't rewarding when you're not optimizing the strategies you use for them is silly. Most of the "experienced" groups you come across in the LFG are just legacy pug strats from before HoT/PoF that are entirely irrelevant due to power-creep let-alone the original, more organized strategies.

People got this nerf pretty wrong.

Before, you got 1g cash for each path daily, 1,5g for Ascalon and 2g(?) for Arah.

After the "nerf" you get ~35s cash for each path daily, 50s for Ascalon and 1g for Arah plus 5g cash after finishing 8 different paths.

So after 8 paths without Ascalon and Arah it's 8g(old) vs 7,8g(new). With Ascalon it's 9,5g(old) vs 8,5g(new). And with Arah it's 11g(old) vs 9,75g(new).

So at this point we see that the cash rewards were way less nerfed than most people think.

But that's not all, there are three more points.

1.) The achievement, where you got the 5g for 8 paths, resets after it's done, it's not bound to any daily resets. So if you want to farm dungeons massively, you will be able to get way more gold after the nerf than before.

2.) Not only the cash reward has been nerfed, also the Dungeon Token gain were doubled. Actually the chest token were doubled, so now you get 100 token instead of 80 (20 are not in the chest but given after finishing a path too). This means 40 more tokens for each path.

Regarding to GW2 efficency you can get ~30c or ~4s per token, depending on how you use them. Thats ~12s or ~1,6g more than before the nerf. So this bonus equalize the less cash gain (more or less).

3.) And last but not least together with the 5g, you also get a Chest of Dungeoneering from that achievement, where you can pick a bag of 150 tokens of your choice. That means another ~45s or 6g in addition.

So all in all you get even more gold after the nerf than before, it's just a little less cash. The nerf actually was a buff (and even without tokens, only a small nerf), but people sadly got it wrong.

It can be upwards of 30-50g per hour depending on available recipes and tour speed. Especially for people who don't have recipes, rising ecto and mat prices are good for dungeons. This spreadsheet is from 2018 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/443563530860363788/451915847049543682/xn8m74f.png

and hers for 2020 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ex9zbExAYDY46LAeP58SI7ah-DSzVze3ZS5lGm03PLY/edit#gid=1713388649

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Robban.1256

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Robban.1256 said:

@Khisanth.2948@Westenev.5289 

The rewards aren't bad. The player-base is just bad at running dungeons outside of insular speed-clear groups. You seldom see things like various dungeon consumables, stealth, combo/blast finishers, portals and jumping puzzle mechanics outside of experienced groups any more. Complaining that dungeons aren't rewarding when you're not optimizing the strategies you use for them is silly.

 

Isn't that exactly the point? Most of the dungeon runners in the past were casual or semi-casual groups. And the rewards were good enough for those kinds of players. Now the rewards are good only for those that hyperoptimize their dungeon-running.

 

Also, large part of the calculated rewards assumes you have dungeon recipes unlocked. Most players do not have those recipes (honestly, i have been playing in this game since the beginning and was doing a lot of dungeon running before the rewards got nerfed, but i have never even saw a recipe drop - it's not unusual even for veterans to not have those. And it's almost certain for new players)

 

Additionally, remember that the original reward nerf was bigger. It was partially undone after a time, due to player complains, but Anet first waited for dungeons to empty of players before they did so.

 

It's very easy to kill a content with reward nerf. To bring players back to the same content however is harder - once the players have moved on, you often need something even better than before to entice them back. Not something that is almost as good as it was. And even that only if you strategize your dungeon running to a much greater degree than you had before.

 

Not to mention, rewards in other types of content have changd since then. What once was good, now is merely mediocre. Current dungeon rewards, for example, cannot compare to Fractal ones (if you consider a daily fractal run), or to OW farms (if you think about more longterm farming per day).

 

(again, that's for an average potential dungeon runner. The gph numbers you briought up or dungeon runs are possible only for a very small number of players - all the rest are better served by running fractals or other OW farm content - even if they'll also be highly inefficient doing those)

Edited May 12, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Robban.1256 said:

@Khisanth.2948@Westenev.5289 

The rewards aren't bad. The player-base is just bad at running dungeons outside of insular speed-clear groups. You seldom see things like various dungeon consumables, stealth, combo/blast finishers, portals and jumping puzzle mechanics outside of experienced groups any more. Complaining that dungeons aren't rewarding when you're not optimizing the strategies you use for them is silly. Most of the "experienced" groups you come across in the LFG are just legacy pug strats from before HoT/PoF that are entirely irrelevant due to power-creep let-alone the original, more organized strategies.

People got this nerf pretty wrong.

Before, you got 1g cash for each path daily, 1,5g for Ascalon and 2g(?) for Arah.

After the "nerf" you get ~35s cash for each path daily, 50s for Ascalon and 1g for Arah plus 5g cash after finishing 8 different paths.

So after 8 paths without Ascalon and Arah it's 8g(old) vs 7,8g(new). With Ascalon it's 9,5g(old) vs 8,5g(new). And with Arah it's 11g(old) vs 9,75g(new).

So at this point we see that the cash rewards were way less nerfed than most people think.

But that's not all, there are three more points.

1.) The achievement, where you got the 5g for 8 paths, resets after it's done, it's not bound to any daily resets. So if you want to farm dungeons massively, you will be able to get way more gold after the nerf than before.

2.) Not only the cash reward has been nerfed, also the Dungeon Token gain were doubled. Actually the chest token were doubled, so now you get 100 token instead of 80 (20 are not in the chest but given after finishing a path too). This means 40 more tokens for each path.

Regarding to GW2 efficency you can get ~30c or ~4s per token, depending on how you use them. Thats ~12s or ~1,6g more than before the nerf. So this bonus equalize the less cash gain (more or less).

3.) And last but not least together with the 5g, you also get a Chest of Dungeoneering from that achievement, where you can pick a bag of 150 tokens of your choice. That means another ~45s or 6g in addition.

So all in all you get even more gold after the nerf than before, it's just a little less cash. The nerf actually was a buff (and even without tokens, only a small nerf), but people sadly got it wrong.

 

 it can be upwards of 30-50g per hour depending on available recipes and tour speed. Especially for people who don't have recipes, rising ecto and mat prices are good for dungeons. This spreadsheet is from 2018 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/443563530860363788/451915847049543682/xn8m74f.png

and hers for 2020 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ex9zbExAYDY46LAeP58SI7ah-DSzVze3ZS5lGm03PLY/edit#gid=1713388649

And that was after the buffed them up again, for most dungeoneerers it was to little to late.

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/12/2021 at 9:25 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

all the rest are better served by running fractals or other OW farm content - even if they'll also be highly inefficient doing those

What exactly is this claim based on? I mean, are there actual numbers for that or just "general feeling"? Asking more about fractals than the OW, because that one is probably based on getting carried by zerg while autoattacking more than anything else.

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What exactly is this claim based on? I mean, are there actual numbers for that or just "general feeling"? Asking more about fractals than the OW, because that one is probably based on getting carried by zerg while autoattacking more than anything else.

 

Well, a more casual player is not going for a dungeon farming spree, nor are they going to speedrun the content. They will do a dungeon path or two, or a full dungeon run (all 3 paths). Or, in case of fractals, a full set of t4 dailies (without CMs, since we're talking about casuals here). In this case, what do you think is more rewarding?

 

It's not only a difference in approach, btw. It is also a difference in clearing speed. For a casual player, a full set of t4 dailies might actually not only give better rewards, but also take faster than 2-3 dungeon paths. Or, in case of Arah, faster than a single path.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

17 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

Well, a more casual player is not going for a dungeon farming spree, nor are they going to speedrun the content. They will do a dungeon path or two, or a full dungeon run (all 3 paths). Or, in case of fractals, a full set of t4 dailies (without CMs, since we're talking about casuals here). In this case, what do you think is more rewarding?

 

It's not only a difference in approach, btw. It is also a difference in clearing speed. For a casual player, a full set of t4 dailies might actually not only give better rewards, but also take faster than 2-3 dungeon paths. Or, in case of Arah, faster than a single path.

It doesn't matter what I think is more rewarding, which is why I asked if there are actual numbers, but it seems it's more of a general feeling. The main ""problem"" I see with this response is that you assume "casual player" means someone can't be repeatedly playing through the same content or they won't occasionally spend more time ingame at once. Overally just because someone's "casual", doesn't mean they never farm anything. They won't be farming all the time and they probably won't use the most efficient ways to complete the content, but that works for both dungeons and fractals, which is also why I find it hard to agree with such generalized claims.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

On 5/13/2021 at 6:00 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

It doesn't matter what I think is more rewarding, which is why I asked if there are actual numbers

Well, there are. I don't remember those exactly, but from memory a full fractal daily run is around ~10+g (casual level assumed here, without increased rewards from fractal god) before selling mats. Dungeons are around 1g per path or so (again, before selling mats).

 

Generally, when including selling stuff etc, the income (taken from some farming sites) is around ~25g per fractal t4 daily set, and a similar value from a run of 8 easy dungeon paths. I don't think i need to tell you what is faster to do for a casual (nor how unlikely it is for a casual to even consider doing 8 dungeon paths in a day).

[Infusion.7149]

Regardless of whatever is said in this thread, dungeons are dead content because they don't intend to develop it further. Be glad support is still there in the form of the rewards and the daily dungeons that pop up every so often.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/19/2021 at 3:01 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, there are. I don't remember those exactly, but from memory a full fractal daily run is around ~10+g (casual level assumed here, without increased rewards from fractal god) before selling mats. Dungeons are around 1g per path or so (again, before selling mats).

 

Generally, when including selling stuff etc, the income (taken from some farming sites) is around ~25g per fractal t4 daily set, and a similar value from a run of 8 easy dungeon paths. I don't think i need to tell you what is faster to do for a casual (nor how unlikely it is for a casual to even consider doing 8 dungeon paths in a day).

Looks like a whole lot of no source to me 😉

And to be clear, that question was also about including those unspecified "casual players" in the outcomes. Which site was it?

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[medivh.4725]

Dungeons are really cool. But suddenly you have the story mode vs exploration mode further dividing the already shrinking population going for dungeons. It is similar to PVP where ranked and unranked is little bit unneccessary. (They should be choosing 2v2 or 5v5 instead) For dungeons it should been 1 mode for all. Bringing people together and easlier to organise.

 

Also dungeon rewards can be better especially if all paths done

Edited May 29, 2021 by medivh.4725

[medivh.4725]

Dungeon still people doing. Try upping per path reward to 1.5 gold, and to 2 gold per completion. See how its gonna help bring people into dungeons again. Not everybody are motivation to earn fashion piece. Some just want gold