Demonic Lore PvE nerf

[Tobias.8632]

WHY DO YOU KEEP DOING THIS ANY TIME YOU ACCIDENTALLY MAKE NECRO GOOD

Literally any time a necro spec even approaches other classes in DPS, down comes the nerf hammer. It still wasn't even close to other top DPS specs. Why didn't you try tuning the characters who can currently hit over 40,000 damage per second before you come down on this?

 

Sure, 8% is not a humongous nerf, but it was so goddamn unnecessary

Edited May 26, 2021 by Tobias.8632

[Nimon.7840]

i mean, its fine. what i dont understand: 
why gets firebrand buffed, even though its as broken good as necro?

 

second thing:

 

WHY THE KITTEN.... is the scourge shade mechanic bug not fixed????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

its literally a BROKEN SPEC MECHANIC and they dont give a kitten

[Aktium.9506]

Nah. Scourge, Mirage and Renegade are/were busted af

 

Scourge also shouldn't ever have higher DPS than Reaper as a ranged spec with a bunch of support and utility tools. That's just bad design.

 

The Torment change was also beyond dumb and should be reverted to how it was.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Aktium.9506

[Tobias.8632]

2 minutes ago, Aktium.9506 said:

Nah. Scourge, Mirage and Renegade are/were busted af

 

Scourge also shouldn't ever have higher DPS than Reaper as a ranged spec with a bunch of support and utility tools. That's just bad design.

 

The Torment change was also beyond dumb and should be reverted to how it was.

 

I mean I don't 100% disagree but I feel like the torment changes should be unique to necro. Other classes can hit 38k dps without it, while with it we're able to for the first time ever.

[Obtena.7952]

Calm down there buddy. It's not as bad as you think. 

[Aktium.9506]

5 minutes ago, Tobias.8632 said:

 

Other classes can hit 38k dps without it, while with it we're able to for the first time ever.

Around PoF launch when Desert Shroud was bugged and you had the effect happen both on your shade and yourself at the same time we were at 38k before it was fixed 👌

[Anchoku.8142]

Something like this was expected and some other professions were nerfed quite a bit harder. Necro did not even need a paragraph explaining that it was overtuned.

[Axl.8924]

Its because we can't have necro be as good as others can we? we must have someone to pick on and thats necro.

God Anet is terrible for listening to crybabies, no wonder folks are quitting.

 

 

When you have classes that can do a lot more dmg than 1 class, like 45-50k dmg with better support as well, why bring nec? its just plain bad. If you want to have nec do a little bit less dps then thats acceptable, but huge amounts is not, it cries poor balance.

 

You can't have most doing 35-50k dps and have nec at just 29k or less, its just not good design.

 

In fact: The top guys should be nerfed harder to bring everyone closer rather than nerf necro.

You know i'm done with this game, the devs don't know how to balance properly. Having a pve class neglected for 5+ years and bottom of the barrel and sunwelled is awful.

 

Take wow for instance. Sure it has huge flaws in design, but each and every class ez or not is balanced in such a way that its dps is close to another, not this 5+k dps difference between the next lowest class for years.

 

Having a few k dps between lowest and highest is fine, but huge amounts isn't. Good example:

Power reaper should have really high dps if focused on dps because its a dps spec, it should have its place. If you were to nerf it, you would delete nec from raid scene practically.

 

Condi scourge as long as its dps is focused in such a way that its pure condi dps, should have its place and be high dps. Sure if it goes hybrid and or stuff for support sure, but scourge is the only condi spec viable currently for nec. Why should firebrand do hundreds of billions of damage for both power and condi while also bringing tons of utility? how is that fair?

Edited May 25, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Asum.4960]

"Scourge with it's extremely slow damage ramp as well as it's peak numbers on static DPS golems only isn't really overperforming, but heh, kitten it, it's Necro." 

 

Was missing as justification blip in the patch notes.

 

But seriously, if Barrier, somehow, is such a massive problem to provide while doing decent DPS (like other comparable or much better DPS's don't provide anything else, in a game where you are borderline immortal with a support anyway), just add to for example the underwhelming Sadistic Searing an effect that reduces or removes Barrier from Sand Cascade and maybe even Desert Shroud, but instead doubles their Torment Application via Manifest Sand Shade. 

 

Wow, optionally more damage, less support/self sustain. Amazing.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Infusion.7149]

What a dramatic overreaction. People were benching 36.5K on condi scourge after May 11 patch. About 40% of that was torment damage, so ~14.5K DPS from torment.

Going from 33 to 25% modifier is ~6% difference as 1.25/1.33 ~ 94%. The net loss should be a roughly 1K DPS.

[Xeon.5768]

14 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Its because we can't have necro be as good as others can we? we must have someone to pick on and thats necro.

God Anet is terrible for listening to crybabies, no wonder folks are quitting.

 

 

When you have classes that can do a lot more dmg than 1 class, like 45-50k dmg with better support as well, why bring nec? its just plain bad. If you want to have nec do a little bit less dps then thats acceptable, but huge amounts is not, it cries poor balance.

 

You can't have most doing 35-50k dps and have nec at just 29k or less, its just not good design.

 

In fact: The top guys should be nerfed harder to bring everyone closer rather than nerf necro.

You know i'm done with this game, the devs don't know how to balance properly. Having a pve class neglected for 5+ years and bottom of the barrel and sunwelled is awful.

 

Take wow for instance. Sure it has huge flaws in design, but each and every class ez or not is balanced in such a way that its dps is close to another, not this 5+k dps difference between the next lowest class for years.

 

Having a few k dps between lowest and highest is fine, but huge amounts isn't. Good example:

Power reaper should have really high dps if focused on dps because its a dps spec, it should have its place. If you were to nerf it, you would delete nec from raid scene practically.

 

Condi scourge as long as its dps is focused in such a way that its pure condi dps, should have its place and be high dps. Sure if it goes hybrid and or stuff for support sure, but scourge is the only condi spec viable currently for nec. Why should firebrand do hundreds of billions of damage and then its next one hundreds of billions of damage while offering some support while scourge does 28-29k? 

Most of the claims here simply lack of strong evidence.

 

In general,

"Scourge was not op for its damage, it was op because of the ridiculous support it provides, if you fill a squad with them, it is essentially impossible to wipe, even without a healer scourge has always been completely broken on a mechanical level, only difference is now it does decent damage as well" This has been widely reflected in raid communities and also fractal CM100.

 

With the new torment change, this class can, not only do high consistent dmg (may not be top 1 in all situations but still very high), but also receive no reduction in its barrier support, meaning the original mechanics-level broken facts still exist.

 

"A class should be balanced between dps and sustain/support, not everything altogether."

 

Two videos are attached, which both show the high dmg potential of scourge and reaper in raids, strikes and fractal CMs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmY0VOU8cK4&t=1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uIRw3WXTuQ&t=1395s

 

For example, with the torment change brought by May 11th patch, condi scourge ouputs 40k+ on dark AI CM100, even with the presence of HB, a class that has been recognized to hold back the party's total dps output. In comparison, the previous meta classes (i.e. cFB or c slb, as tested by Discretize https://discretize.eu/builds/guardian/condi-firebrand) can only maintain about 30-35k for the same encounter, in pugs.

 

For another example, pwr reaper can now have 80k+ opener on bosses like mama in CM98 (even in pugs as shown by the video above), making it close to the PREVIOUS meta classes like soulbeast and weaver (with skill precasting only). The sustained dmg of reaper after the May 11th patch also brings it on par with other general dps classes. 

 

In summary, at this point there is not too much to complain about necro's dps potential, but more about its mechanics broken long-lasting aspects that have not been addressed yet.

[Xeon.5768]

5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

What a dramatic overreaction. People were benching 36.5K on condi scourge after May 11 patch. About 40% of that was torment damage, so ~14.5K DPS from torment.

Going from 33 to 25% modifier is ~6% difference as 1.25/1.33 ~ 94%. The net loss should be a roughly 1K DPS.

Exactly right. It is still doing high cleave/on-target dmg on bosses like fractal CM100, W5 SH, etc.. It is still mechanics broken for its barrier. It is still being abused widely by raid selling communities.

 

In addition to these, I was actually expecting the scale-down of torment coefficient (as you mentioned previously under my post), but unfortunately Anet seems unwilling to do so, while applying nerf to class-specific traits.

[Tobias.8632]

7 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

Two videos are attached, which both show the high dmg potential of scourge and reaper in raids, strikes and fractal CMs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmY0VOU8cK4&t=1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uIRw3WXTuQ&t=1395s

 

For example, with the torment change brought by May 11th patch, condi scourge ouputs 40k+ on dark AI CM100, even with the presence of HB, a class that has been recognized to hold back the party's total dps output. In comparison, the previous meta classes (i.e. cFB or c slb, as tested by Discretize https://discretize.eu/builds/guardian/condi-firebrand) can only maintain about 30-35k for the same encounter, in pugs.at have not been addressed yet.

 

Yeah but fractals don't matter because it's babby ezmode solved content

[Axl.8924]

13 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

Most of the claims here simply lack of strong evidence.

 

In general,

"Scourge was not op for its damage, it was op because of the ridiculous support it provides, if you fill a squad with them, it is essentially impossible to wipe, even without a healer scourge has always been completely broken on a mechanical level, only difference is now it does decent damage as well" This has been widely reflected in raid communities and also fractal CM100.

 

With the new torment change, this class can, not only do high consistent dmg (may not be top 1 in all situations but still very high), but also receive no reduction in its barrier support, meaning the original mechanics-level broken facts still exist.

 

"A class should be balanced between dps and sustain/support, not everything altogether."

 

Two videos are attached, which both show the high dmg potential of scourge and reaper in raids, strikes and fractal CMs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmY0VOU8cK4&t=1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uIRw3WXTuQ&t=1395s

 

For example, with the torment change brought by May 11th patch, condi scourge ouputs 40k+ on dark AI CM100, even with the presence of HB, a class that has been recognized to hold back the party's total dps output. In comparison, the previous meta classes (i.e. cFB or c slb, as tested by Discretize https://discretize.eu/builds/guardian/condi-firebrand) can only maintain about 30-35k for the same encounter, in pugs.

 

For another example, pwr reaper can now have 80k+ opener on bosses like mama in CM98 (even in pugs as shown by the video above), making it close to the PREVIOUS meta classes like soulbeast and weaver (with skill precasting only). The sustained dmg of reaper after the May 11th patch also brings it on par with other general dps classes. 

 

In summary, at this point there is not too much to complain about necro's dps potential, but more about its mechanics broken long-lasting aspects that have not been addressed yet.

 

If the problem is sustain then force scourge to sacrifice group utility for dmg instead of nerfing also if scourge is a issue, likely other classes are too and there is still of course issue of classes doing too much damage as is. having over 45 or even 50k dps is too much and pretty crazy, and having 10+k is way too much dps difference between highest.

 

 

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

If the problem is sustain then force scourge to sacrifice group utility for dmg instead of nerfing also if scourge is a issue, likely other classes are too and there is still of course issue of classes doing too much damage as is. having over 45 or even 50k dps is too much and pretty crazy, and having 10+k is way too much dps difference between highest.

 

 

Read the rest of the patch notes, not just your class section. Mirage and condi deadeye with pistol mainhand were shaved down.

If you're too lazy to do so:

Mesmer

Quote

Staff

• Winds of Chaos: When cast by a clone, the durations of applied torment and confusion have been reduced from 5 seconds to 2 seconds in all game modes. <-- -60%

Mirage

• Chaos Vortex: Reduced alacrity applied to nearby allies from 3 seconds to 2.5 seconds in PvE only.

Thief
 

Quote

• Shadow Strike: Reduced applied torment from 4 stacks to 2 stacks in PvE only. This now matches the number of stacks currently in PvP and WvW. <--- -50%
• Repeater: Increased initiative cost from 2 to 3. Reduced duration of applied bleeding from 4 seconds to 3 seconds in PvE only. <---  -25%
• Sneak Attack: Reduced applied bleeding duration from 6 seconds to 5 seconds in PvE only. This now matches the duration in PvP and WvW. <-- -17%

Deadeye

• Malicious Sneak Attack: Reduced applied bleeding duration from 6 seconds to 5 seconds in PvE only. <--- -17%

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

4 minutes ago, Tobias.8632 said:

 

Yeah but fractals don't matter because it's babby ezmode solved content

So what matters to you? 

Open world?

 

Power reaper, a class that is very self-sufficient in boons, has 20-25 might, quickness, and 100% crit chance when entering shroud, and on the other hand, has many hard/soft CC, such as pull, blinds, making it very ideal to deal with open world trash mobs.

 

In the situation of soloing open world champion/leg mobs (except quite a few that have self-heal capabilities and require multiple players to do mechanics), condition scourge is very strong in both dmg output and suvivability, and it is certainly the top-pick in this regard.

 

Raids?

Well as reflected by the videos (and you can find far more on youtube if you want), it is in a good position now after the May 11th patch. The new 8% torment tune-down is minimal compared to what has been brought by May 11th patch.

 

 

DPS-wise, I can't seem to find many other classes that are as viable as this class (maybe guardian, but its guardian wars 2 isnt it?). One may claim necro is not doing top 1 dps, but overacting it being useless or underperforming significantly, is also making nonsense.

[Axl.8924]

9 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

So what matters to you? 

Open world?

 

Power reaper, a class that is very self-sufficient in boons, has 20-25 might, quickness, and 100% crit chance when entering shroud, and on the other hand, has many hard/soft CC, such as pull, blinds, making it very ideal to deal with open world trash mobs.

 

In the situation of soloing open world champion/leg mobs (except quite a few that have self-heal capabilities and require multiple players to do mechanics), condition scourge is very strong in both dmg output and suvivability, and it is certainly the top-pick in this regard.

 

Raids?

Well as reflected by the videos (and you can find far more on youtube if you want), it is in a good position now after the May 11th patch. The new 8% torment tune-down is minimal compared to what has been brought by May 11th patch.

 

 

DPS-wise, I can't seem to find many other classes that are as viable as this class (maybe guardian, but its guardian wars 2 isnt it?). One may claim necro is not doing top 1 dps, but overacting it being useless or underperforming significantly, is also making nonsense.

 

Everyone can solo in open world, it just requires knowledge and Everyone has at least some builds meta for fractals possibly more and some have had builds viable for years.

 

Some builds offer good support and dps.

 

Also: Mesmers used to be the love childs of ANET. 

Consider how in the past alacricity was desired more than anything.

 

Sure guardians were op with boon spam but consider just how nuts mesmers were

 

Right now, scourge is necros highest condi dps, if it gets deleted, then necro has no condi spec.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Axl.8924

[frareanselm.1925]

this was overpowered man, burn is the burstiest condi in the game.

[Xeon.5768]

9 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Everyone can solo in open world, it just requires knowledge and Everyone has at least some builds meta for fractals possibly more and some have had builds viable for years.

 

Some builds offer good support and dps.

 

 

Yes everyone can solo in open world, but at what performance level?

 

For example, solo-ing an open-world champion/legendary mobs means you need to have high enough survivability as well as high enough dmg outputs on the boss, because many times these bosses will have time constraints (e.g. 10mins) to kill it. If you are taking a class that is playing around the boss (and you can survive in this case) but not be able to do high enough dmg on it, you will eventually fail the fight.

 

What I meant is, condition scourge is very strong in this aspect, having high survivability and high consistent dmg output, as well as some crow control when needed (not even mentioning how effective epidemic can be when the champion/leg mobs also spawn a lot of trash mobs).

Edited May 25, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Axl.8924]

4 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

Yes everyone can solo in open world, but at what performance level?

 

For example, solo-ing an open-world champion/legendary mobs means you need to have high enough survivability as we as high enough dmg outputs on the boss, because many times these bosses will have time constraints (e.g. 10mins) to kill it. If you are taking a class that is playing around the boss (and you can survive in this case) but not be able to do high enough dmg on it, you will eventually fail the fight.

 

What I meant is, condition scourge is very strong in this aspect, having high survivability and high consistent dmg output, as well as some crow control when needed.

Other people have soloed bosses on other classes. I've seen mesmers solo champion bosses.

 

Its a dead end thing, becuase if you use that, then reaper would have to be deleted from existence, and nec wouldn't have a viable build for raids, which would lead to tons of angry necro mains screaming and angry. Unless ANET is willing to make some sorta compromise with nec to keep it viable for raids and fractals, and leave it alone dps wise, or overhaul its sustain so it can have high dmg while glassy.

 

And there is no guarantee that overhauling its sustain won't cause more anger and oturage.

 

Also keep in mind: Necro mains are defensive because 6+ years they were at the bottom and sunwelled and literally being told to play another class, and some when we started to become viable complained  and wanted us back to being unviable.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Xeon.5768]

1 minute ago, Axl.8924 said:

Other people have soloed bosses on other classes. I've seen mesmers solo champion bosses.

 

Its a dead end thing, becuase if you use that, then reaper would have to be deleted from existence, and nec wouldn't have a viable build for raids, which would lead to tons of angry necro mains screaming and angry. Unless ANET is willing to make some sorta compromise with nec to keep it viable for raids and fractals, and leave it alone dps wise, or overhaul its sustain so it can have high dmg while glassy.

 

And there is no guarantee that overhauling its sustain won't cause more anger and oturage.

 

 

I play all the classes in pve competitive contents. I have been playing necro for quite a long time. From my personal perspective, I would rather have necro outputting higher dmg, but less mechanics-broken sustain feature. At the end of the day, skipping mechanics is like other forms of hacking or exploiting, as opposed to the normal game play. If a hard-carry build is created and found out to be strong enough (again may not be top 1 but very strong) to pass most of the fights, it makes fights no fun and doesn't encourage ppl to discover new builds or improve their understanding of the classes.

[Xeon.5768]

10 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Other people have soloed bosses on other classes. I've seen mesmers solo champion bosses.

 

 

It is certainly true that condition scourge is not the only class/build that can solo these challenging leg/champ mobs. Other examples include but not limited to, condition firebrand, condition mirage, condition soulbeast.

 

Again, the point here is to say condition scourge is on par (or even better in some cases) with these classes listed above.

[Axl.8924]

1 minute ago, Xeon.5768 said:

I play all the classes in pve competitive contents. I have been playing necro for quite a long time. From my personal perspective, I would rather have necro outputting higher dmg, but less mechanics-broken sustain feature. At the end of the day, skipping mechanics is like other forms of hacking or exploiting, as opposed to the normal game play. If a hard-carry build is created and found out to be strong enough (again may not be top 1 but very strong) to pass most of the fights, it makes fights no fun and doesn't encourage ppl to discover new builds or improve their understanding of the classes.

Yeah i understand that, but Anet seems unwilling or stuck. A good example is reaper sustain while in shroud.

 

Balancing that is a nightmare.

 

Scourge is another one thats a nightmare to balance, yet nerfing its damage too much is unwise, becuase you destroy builds. Right now scourge is all necro has viable for condi, unless you make reaper with chill viable, and who knows what issues that will cause, unless you make core viable.

 

I'd be perfectly fine with scourge being only good at support if core was equally strong to where scourge was in condi while having scourge be a lot lower.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

25 minutes ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

this was overpowered man, burn is the burstiest condi in the game.

Do you realize that this change only reduce torment damage when taking the demonic lore trait and have absolutely nothing to do with burn?

[Dadnir.5038]

All in all, it's not the end of the world, the loss of dps is abysmal.

 

The patch still look like a bad joke, especially for revenant, elementalist and warrior. And imo, I'm glad the necromancer don't get any little paragraphe to justify the change, just reading the engineer's one was enough to not want to read any of the other.