Soulbeasts can pet swap in downstate / Rangers can use F-skills in downstate

[Kodama.6453]

Soulbeasts can swap their pets while in downstate since the patch which disabled them to by picking the soulbeast elite spec.

Easy to reproduce, just go into downstate and press F4 while you have soulbeast equipped.

 

In general, rangers as the only class are allowed to use their F-skills, including the beast skills on F2 and the pet swap on F4, while they are in downstate. Considering that there is no UI to showcase this behaviour and the fact that neither any other class can use their F-skills in downstate, nor can any other class command their pets while in downstate (detonating turrets, active skills of minions, etc.), I would personally consider this to be a long lasting bug in the game.

 

Some clarification if this is intended design or not would be great, especially since it enables rangers to chain CC enemies which are trying to stomp them multiple times (using skill 2 in downstate, using F2 of their pet, swapping to the other pet and using F2 again).

 

Please either fix this bug or clarify that it has become an intended feature and give it a proper UI to communicate it to players. Players shouldn't have to figure out such impactful mechanics by accidentally pressing buttons.

[Skolia.2408]

That's always been like that for Rangers (swapping and using the F2 skill).

 

(Clarification would be good though.)

Edited June 4, 2021 by Skolia.2408

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

43 minutes ago, Skolia.2408 said:

That's always been like that for Rangers (swapping and using the F2 skill).

 

(Clarification would be good though.)

The issue at hand is that they seem to be the ONLY class than can use their Fkey skills while in downstate. That is in an of itself a major game balance oversight. It means that rangers have been playing with one set of downstate rules, while the rest of the professions have been playing by another set of rules.

 

If it is indeed intended game design then:

1) Shame on Anet for instituting such an imbalance in basic game design.

2) It should be included in the downstate UI.

3) The other professions should have access to their Fkey skills while in downstate as well along with proper downstate UI.

 

If this is indeed a bug, albeit one that has persisted since launch with most of the player base unaware of it then:

1) Properly lock ranger Fkey skills while in downstate.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The issue at hand is that they seem to be the ONLY class than can use their Fkey skills while in downstate. That is in an of itself a major game balance oversight. It means that rangers have been playing with one set of downstate rules, while the rest of the professions have been playing by another set of rules.

 

If it is indeed intended game design then:

1) Shame on Anet for instituting such an imbalance in basic game design.

2) It should be included in the downstate UI.

3) The other professions should have access to their Fkey skills while in downstate as well along with proper downstate UI.

 

If this is indeed a bug, albeit one that has persisted since launch with most of the player base unaware of it then:

1) Properly lock ranger Fkey skills while in downstate.

Well ranger is the only class with a separate npc as their f skill.

 

considering how hard a time the pet have to hit a moving target when alive it is a good balance.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

15 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well ranger is the only class with a separate npc as their f skill.

 

considering how hard a time the pet have to hit a moving target when alive it is a good balance.

No it is not.

[Danger Ferret.6342]

On 6/3/2021 at 9:26 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

Soulbeasts can swap their pets while in downstate since the patch which disabled them to by picking the soulbeast elite spec.

Easy to reproduce, just go into downstate and press F4 while you have soulbeast equipped.

 

In general, rangers as the only class are allowed to use their F-skills, including the beast skills on F2 and the pet swap on F4, while they are in downstate. Considering that there is no UI to showcase this behaviour and the fact that neither any other class can use their F-skills in downstate, nor can any other class command their pets while in downstate (detonating turrets, active skills of minions, etc.), I would personally consider this to be a long lasting bug in the game.

 

Some clarification if this is intended design or not would be great, especially since it enables rangers to chain CC enemies which are trying to stomp them multiple times (using skill 2 in downstate, using F2 of their pet, swapping to the other pet and using F2 again).

 

Please either fix this bug or clarify that it has become an intended feature and give it a proper UI to communicate it to players. Players shouldn't have to figure out such impactful mechanics by accidentally pressing buttons.

I think I'm confused as to what you mean by a "down state". Since Soulbeasts can only change pets when not in combat, I assumed that is what you meant. But you go on to talking about chain CC enemies, which would be a skill in combat so ... not a downstate?

I don't understand what advantage being able to swap from a smokescale to a red moa gives me if I'm just standing around.

 

I'm not saying your issue isn't a valid one. I just don't quite get what it is. If I attack with my pet using f2, then it is in combat, and I am in combat. Therefore, I cannot switch pets and f2 again until I am no longer in combat. Also, I can invoke my guardian's f skills just standing around to check out shiny graphics with a new weapon skin. Again, not saying the issue is invalid. I just am missing the problem I think.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Danger Ferret.6342
rfc

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

37 minutes ago, Danger Ferret.6342 said:

I think I'm confused as to what you mean by a "down state". Since Soulbeasts can only change pets when not in combat, I assumed that is what you meant. But you go on to talking about chain CC enemies, which would be a skill in combat so ... not a downstate?

I don't understand what advantage being able to swap from a smokescale to a red moa gives me if I'm just standing around.

 

I'm not saying your issue isn't a valid one. I just don't quite get what it is. If I attack with my pet using f2, then it is in combat, and I am in combat. Therefore, I cannot switch pets and f2 again until I am no longer in combat. Also, I can invoke my guardian's f skills just standing around to check out shiny graphics with a new weapon skin. Again, not saying the issue is invalid. I just am missing the problem I think.

When you are in downstate you are in combat. Soulbeast give up petswap in combat for being Soulbeasts, but are able to petswap while in downstate.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Kodama.6453]

25 minutes ago, Danger Ferret.6342 said:

I think I'm confused as to what you mean by a "down state". Since Soulbeasts can only change pets when not in combat, I assumed that is what you meant. But you go on to talking about chain CC enemies, which would be a skill in combat so ... not a downstate?

I don't understand what advantage being able to swap from a smokescale to a red moa gives me if I'm just standing around.

 

I'm not saying your issue isn't a valid one. I just don't quite get what it is. If I attack with my pet using f2, then it is in combat, and I am in combat. Therefore, I cannot switch pets and f2 again until I am no longer in combat. Also, I can invoke my guardian's f skills just standing around to check out shiny graphics with a new weapon skin. Again, not saying the issue is invalid. I just am missing the problem I think.

Downstate is when your health reached 0 and you are lying on the ground with (theoretically) just having 4 skills available.

 

In case of ranger, this would be: throw dirt, thunderclap, lick wounds and bandage self.

 

However, a ranger, unlike all the other classes, can still activate their F-skills in this state. Yes, a soulbeasts shouldn't be able to swap pets while in combat. But if you are lying on the ground like that, not fully dead yet, you can swap pets by pressing f4, even if the UI is not showing these skills anymore.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well ranger is the only class with a separate npc as their f skill.

 

considering how hard a time the pet have to hit a moving target when alive it is a good balance.

If it really would have to do with the pet being a seperated NPC, then other classes also should be able to give their pets commands in downstate, like necromancer being able to activate the active skills of their minions or engineers being able to detonate their turrets.

 

But these actions are not possible anymore, either.

No matter how you see it, it is inconsistent behaviour.

[Danger Ferret.6342]

2 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Downstate is when your health reached 0 and you are lying on the ground with (theoretically) just having 4 skills available.

 

In case of ranger, this would be: throw dirt, thunderclap, lick wounds and bandage self.

 

However, a ranger, unlike all the other classes, can still activate their F-skills in this state. Yes, a soulbeasts shouldn't be able to swap pets while in combat. But if you are lying on the ground like that, not fully dead yet, you can swap pets by pressing f4, even if the UI is not showing these skills anymore.

Thank you! I should have figured that out. I usually think of it as  "downed state" and apparently my mind is too brittle today to put words together. I get what you're saying now.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, DarkEmiLupus.2876 said:

This is the same speculation as dw legendaries. If I have 1 lego sword i can copy 2 of it or I would have to make the other sword? If I want to staff mirage can I copy 2 of 1 staff or do I need to have 2 lego staves? No one knows yet so I would rather wait, considering legos are not going anywhere.

 

33 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

If it really would have to do with the pet being a seperated NPC, then other classes also should be able to give their pets commands in downstate, like necromancer being able to activate the active skills of their minions or engineers being able to detonate their turrets.

 

But these actions are not possible anymore, either.

No matter how you see it, it is inconsistent behaviour.

 

While minions and turrets being separe they are not the same as ranger pet.

They are a utility skill and dont work the same.

[Kodama.6453]

On 6/5/2021 at 1:04 AM, Linken.6345 said:

 

 

While minions and turrets being separe they are not the same as ranger pet.

They are a utility skill and dont work the same.

Yeah, I see that excuse thrown around alot.

 

But as a fact, it really doesn't matter that the pet "is different". Something is wrong here and needs changing one way or another.

 

Look at the game. In literally ANY situation in the game, if you can activate a skill by pressing a button, it is shown in the UI. Skills from your class? All shown in UI. You can interact with an object in the world by pressing [F]? Shown in the UI. You have a special skill available during a boss fight to bypass mechanics? Shown in the UI.

 

You can activate F2 and F4 as a ranger in downstate? Not shown in the UI. 

 

This is clearly a mistake in one direction or another. Either it is a bug and they should fix it by disabling F2 and F4 to get activated in downstate (which I think makes the most sense, especially since soulbeast is also supposed to not have access to pet swap in combat anyway).

 

Or it is an intended feature, in which case Anet needs to add an UI to communicate to the players that this is possible. It makes no sense that literally every time you can activate skills it is shown visually in the game except here. And players shouldn't have to find out that this is possible by accidentally pressing the buttons and then noticing that they still work, even if the UI is deactivated.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Galmac.4680]

Plus that nasty WvW-underwater-bug, where rangers are able to heal themselves with their pet. Even if you kill that thing, it continues the healing, or can be swapped and heal. And if you have killed that pet underwater you cannot even fear it away to stop healing.

Should be fixed after that long time!

[Danger Ferret.6342]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Yeah, I see that excuse thrown around alot.

 

But as a fact, it really doesn't matter that the pet "is different". Something is wrong here and needs changing one way or another.

 

Look at the game. In literally ANY situation in the game, if you can activate a skill by pressing a button, it is shown in the UI. Skills from your class? All shown in UI. You can interact with an object in the world by pressing [F]? Shown in the UI. You have a special skill available during a boss fight to bypass mechanics? Shown in the UI.

 

You can activate F2 and F4 as a ranger in downstate? Not shown in the UI. 

 

This is clearly a mistake in one direction or another. Either it is a bug and they should fix it by disabling F2 and F4 to get activated in downstate (which I think makes the most sense, especially since soulbeast is also supposed to not have access to pet swap in combat anyway).

 

Or it is an intended feature, in which case Anet needs to add an UI to communicate to the players that this is possible. It makes no sense that literally every time you can activate skills it is shown visually in the game except here. And players shouldn't have to find out that this is possible by accidentally pressing the buttons and then noticing that they still work, even if the UI is deactivated.

I was so clueless this happened that I completely misunderstood the scope of the discussion, mistaking "downstate" for "downtime", and a I main a Soulbeast. I just did try out those skills while downed, and sure enough they worked. It does feel completely incorrect to have them present while undocumented and unaccounted for in the UI, and as much as I love any edge I can get ... I felt a little dirty summoning my moa while bleeding out on the floor. (But only a little.)

Edited June 7, 2021 by Danger Ferret.6342

[Teratus.2859]

Old bug.. i'm amazed this still hasn't been fixed, people have been reporting it for years.

[Kodama.6453]

11 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Old bug.. i'm amazed this still hasn't been fixed, people have been reporting it for years.

Unfortunately, Anet seems to have a complete disinterest to work on some aspects of their game.

 

Downstate is one example, under water combat is another. As long as it doesn't outright make the game crash, they seem to not care to fix stuff affecting these.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The solution of course is to disable downstate in competitive play until a fix to the bug is found (kidding/not kidding, but this is imbalanced to the point where that would be a valid approach).

[Galmac.4680]

No, disableing the downstate at all is the wrong way, as it is only the ranger that has some options too much.  I bet the devs could do some magic if they just have the time for that.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

14 hours ago, Galmac.4680 said:

No, disableing the downstate at all is the wrong way, as it is only the ranger that has some options too much.  I bet the devs could do some magic if they just have the time for that.

Hence the kidding/not kidding comment...

[Caitir.6947]

Something tells me this isn't THAT critical of a thing to disable downstate just for this. Most ranger players don't even know this is a thing they can do, and of the ones that do I get the distinct feeling this isn't as useful as it sounds because to get the chain CC effect people mention would require them to take 2 different pets, both with CC F2s... which most builds don't utilize, whether condi or power because there's usually better options for a merge. Power SBs might merge with a Rock Gazelle which has a CC F2, but their secondary in PvP is usually something that can forage (which is true of most SB builds in sPvP). Condi SBs usually merge with something like an Eagle which doesn't have an F2 CC. If we look at WvW, the most common power merge is a Smokescale, with no CC F2, and Rock Gazelle, which does. And Condi doesn't run with any F2 CC pet (usually). 

Also most players will try to use stealth, invuln, stability, or other tools to stomp that a ranger can't deal with even with this abuse. I will say that this should be fixed, because it is absolutely not consistent with the tools available to every other class during downed state, but I wouldn't say this is very gamebreaking, either. Those F2 skills can't even remotely reliably hit a stealthed or shadowstepping Thief stomp, they can't stop an Elixir S Engi stomp, they can't stop a Guard's stab/aegis-spam stomp, they can't stop a Distorted or Mirage Cloak Mesmer stomp. It messes with a few classes, but considering how few F2 CC options a ranger typically brings, I don't think this is "beyond broken" levels of critical, just an inconsistent bug that should be fixed and often can't even be abused to its fullest because it would require pets that are often sub-par for what a Ranger wants to do. And also abusing this means relying on choosing pets that optimally help you during a down-state, which is not what you should be planning around for any roaming character.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Caitir.6947 said:

Something tells me this isn't THAT critical of a thing to disable downstate just for this. Most ranger players don't even know this is a thing they can do, and of the ones that do I get the distinct feeling this isn't as useful as it sounds because to get the chain CC effect people mention would require them to take 2 different pets, both with CC F2s... which most builds don't utilize, whether condi or power because there's usually better options for a merge. Power SBs might merge with a Rock Gazelle which has a CC F2, but their secondary in PvP is usually something that can forage (which is true of most SB builds in sPvP). Condi SBs usually merge with something like an Eagle which doesn't have an F2 CC. If we look at WvW, the most common power merge is a Smokescale, with no CC F2, and Rock Gazelle, which does. And Condi doesn't run with any F2 CC pet (usually). 

 

Essentially, but OP lost in the other topic in the actual Ranger forums so posted here 🤣

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Essentially, but OP lost in the other topic in the actual Ranger forums so posted here 🤣

 

Cause rangers want to keep their bugged downstate.

[iamreb.9175]

You do realize that not all pets can CC you right? and even if they do there's a CD for that as well. Also, when rangers decide to have their pets use their CC skill that also cancels their healing skill so you can still continually attack a ranger in their downstate mode and kill them. and Yes i've used this in PVP and WvW but doesn't mean no one can kill me. Stealth nullify it, stability nullify it, hitting me only without doing finisher will nullify it.

 

So just because you found it hard to deal with one ranger doesn't mean everyone does. Just do better next time.

[keenedge.9675]

They've already made the Ranger pet skills a bit flaky, I REALLY hope they don't make it worse if they attempt a fix.

 

ASIDE: I've played a core ranger for 6 years.  When using my mount, sometimes after a dismount, my pet is 'Stowed' even though I had it active moments before.  It will remain stowed even though I'm taking and receiving damage.  This started happening after SoulBeast was created and later adjusted to stop 'in-combat' pet swapping.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, iamreb.9175 said:

You do realize that not all pets can CC you right? and even if they do there's a CD for that as well. Also, when rangers decide to have their pets use their CC skill that also cancels their healing skill so you can still continually attack a ranger in their downstate mode and kill them. and Yes i've used this in PVP and WvW but doesn't mean no one can kill me. Stealth nullify it, stability nullify it, hitting me only without doing finisher will nullify it.

 

So just because you found it hard to deal with one ranger doesn't mean everyone does. Just do better next time.

Not the point. Point is either it's a big or the interface needs to be updated to reflect design intent.