WARRIOR NEEDS COMPLETE REWORK (PVP AND PVE)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

46 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

It doesn't need more damage. It needs better ways to land the damage it already has.

thats nonsense, war has the most ways to land its damage. how many cc's do you see other classes packing?

[Guzzo.5274]

2 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

thats nonsense, war has the most ways to land its damage. how many cc's do you see other classes packing?

CC is useless if you have to bait 10 interrupts and cleanse 45 blinds before being able to land it...

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Meh, no one being objective with any class.

 

Overreactions throughout the whole forums at their finest.

 

A full stunlock warrior deals no dmg. The countless CCs warrior has are of no use. Bull's charge and shield bash are the only CC's from Core's arsenal that see play in competetive, some may go for stomp instead. 

 

Rampage can be kited. I won't say that a spellbreaker isn't aggressive with FC tho. That's part of what PoF especs presented. Overpowered mechanics. Blaming spellbreaker when scourges, firebrands, Holosmiths etc exist around all gamemodes is kinda eeehh.

 

Warrior doesn't lack dmg, as said, it lacks reliable ways to land it. Warrior needs to go full melee and it has very few tools to help with that, when other classes can bomb their position and annihilate the warrior who comes in, tries to deal dmg, and has to kite away, because the warrior will get focused and melt!

 

The warrior subforums are filled with good suggestions, QoL changes and synergies and ideas from multiple warriors who know where the class is suffering. Anet says they read the forums. Then we can only hope they've seen what matters instead of our rants on 0 changes to the class (which unfortunately hints to the oppossite and my hope is diminishing).

[Ragnar.4257]

34 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

thats nonsense, war has the most ways to land its damage. how many cc's do you see other classes packing?

You don't have to CC in order to land damage, and a CC is not automatically easier if the CC is itself difficult to land.

 

Which is easier to land, shield-bash+eviscerate, or sevenshot?

Which is easier to land, backbreaker+fierce-blow, or shadowshot?

Which is easier to land, bulls-charge+arcing-slice, or ghastly-claws?

Which is easier to land, headbutt+decapitate, or grenade-barrage?

Which is easier to land, skullcrack+whirling-axe, or winter's-bite?

[Arheundel.6451]

52 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Meh, no one being objective with any class.

 

Overreactions throughout the whole forums at their finest.

 

A full stunlock warrior deals no dmg. The countless CCs warrior has are of no use. Bull's charge and shield bash are the only CC's from Core's arsenal that see play in competetive, some may go for stomp instead. 

 

Rampage can be kited. I won't say that a spellbreaker isn't aggressive with FC tho. That's part of what PoF especs presented. Overpowered mechanics. Blaming spellbreaker when scourges, firebrands, Holosmiths etc exist around all gamemodes is kinda eeehh.

 

Warrior doesn't lack dmg, as said, it lacks reliable ways to land it. Warrior needs to go full melee and it has very few tools to help with that, when other classes can bomb their position and annihilate the warrior who comes in, tries to deal dmg, and has to kite away, because the warrior will get focused and melt!

 

The warrior subforums are filled with good suggestions, QoL changes and synergies and ideas from multiple warriors who know where the class is suffering. Anet says they read the forums. Then we can only hope they've seen what matters instead of our rants on 0 changes to the class (which unfortunately hints to the oppossite and my hope is diminishing).

It's also true that not all profession can "bomb" their position from range, actually outside necro and full glass SB...there is literally no other real threat from far range, ranged dmg starts to appear then at 600-900 range so....let's remember that warrior damage is justified by the fact that it's hard to land, should that change then the dmg should be lowered

[Guzzo.5274]

2 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's also true that not all profession can "bomb" their position from range, actually outside necro and full glass SB...there is literally no other real threat from far range, ranged dmg starts to appear then at 600-900 range so....let's remember that warrior damage is justified by the fact that it's hard to land, should that change then the dmg should be lowered

Warrior doesn't have much more damage than other class really.

 

[Arheundel.6451]

2 minutes ago, Guzzo.5274 said:

Warrior doesn't have much more damage than other class really.

 

The CC stunlock is real and cannot be denied though, especially with the low access to stability, let's be objective winning against a good war is not a walk in the park, at high level it's either stalemate, or a hard fought victory

Edited June 12, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Guzzo.5274]

How to not get stunlock :

-Aegis

-Blind

-Stunbreak

-Stability

-Dodge

 

And with all that, if you get stunned by a warrior, you should die, because that means that he massively outplayed you.

[Arheundel.6451]

Just now, Arheundel.6451 said:

The CC stunlock is real and cannot be denied though, especially with the low access to stability

 

1 minute ago, Guzzo.5274 said:

How to not get stunlock :

-Aegis

-Blind

-Stunbreak

-Stability

-Dodge

 

And with all that, if you get stunned by a warrior, you should die, because that means that he massively outplayed you.

So it seems no class can currently auto-win vs warriors as players would want you to think, this imply that those winning against wars are not exactly noob who started the game yesterday

[Guzzo.5274]

Just now, Arheundel.6451 said:

 

So it seems no class can currently auto-win vs warriors as players would want you to think, this imply that those winning against wars are not exactly noob who started the game yesterday

No clearly, you have to have basic level of understanding pvp to win against warrior. But once you do, warrior is rendered completely useless.

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

This ^

 

All you need is several hours (I'd say 100+ hours on warrior are enough to learn how it operates and where its dmg comes from) to read the class.

 

Warriors can still outplay even if opponents know what they will do, but Headbutt, Bull's Charge and SHield Bash can all be evaded rather easily. I mean, I evade them vs other warriors. And when I don't Ill break stun and kite to not get CC locked, cause warriors doing CC is the only way to deal dmg on the opponent, unless teamamtes take care of the cc and immob part.

 

In any case, what I meant was that if you manage to deny the warrior of their burst in melee with blinds or smart evades, you can burn through their CDs and if they retreat you can most probably kill them when they turn their back to you. 

 

This holds true for Core and Berserker, as SPellbreaker has FC. Still susceptible like the other 2 specs tho, since T1 bursts take away a lot of potential from core mechanics inlcuding adrenal health, cleansing ire, berserker's power and the flat decrease of each weapon burst's bonus.

[Arheundel.6451]

2 minutes ago, Guzzo.5274 said:

No clearly, you have to have basic level of understanding pvp to win against warrior. But once you do, warrior is rendered completely useless.

 

We can say that for every other profession, clearly warrior needs some help with some traits and utilities, more than some other professions but at the same time, warrior is not as garbage as people would want you to believe. I say the same thing about ele as I realized that we cannot balance the game around the TOP, where overperforming builds are abused, they will always exist

[Guzzo.5274]

1 minute ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

We can say that for every other profession, clearly warrior needs some help with some traits and utilities, more than some other professions but at the same time, warrior is not as garbage as people would want you to believe. I say the same thing about ele as I realized that we cannot balance the game around the TOP, where overperforming builds are abused, they will always exist

The problem is that the level of understanding isn't the same for warrior and the other professions.

 

You can play 1 hour and understand every skill that you have to dodge against a warrior.

 

The same can't be said with others.

[aymnad.9023]

3 hours ago, Guzzo.5274 said:

The problem is that the level of understanding isn't the same for warrior and the other professions.

 

You can play 1 hour and understand every skill that you have to dodge against a warrior.

 

The same can't be said with others.

Ranger ? Guard ? Necro ? Engineer ? All those professions have pretty clear animations and rhythm. Let's not exaggerate this much.

Edited June 12, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Guzzo.5274]

8 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Ranger ? Guard ? Necro ? Engineer ? All those professions have pretty clear animations and rhythm. Let's not exaggerate this much.

 

Most of these classes don't need to cc to deal damage, contrary to warrior.

 

Warrior has to land a cc because most of his damage comes from 100B that locks you in place.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

4 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You don't have to CC in order to land damage, and a CC is not automatically easier if the CC is itself difficult to land.

 

Which is easier to land, shield-bash+eviscerate, or sevenshot?

Which is easier to land, backbreaker+fierce-blow, or shadowshot?

Which is easier to land, bulls-charge+arcing-slice, or ghastly-claws?

Which is easier to land, headbutt+decapitate, or grenade-barrage?

Which is easier to land, skullcrack+whirling-axe, or winter's-bite?

whats the point of this? my class isn't as easy to play as the others so pls buff? my point still stands, you're going off topic and making it seem like i don't agree that war is underpowered atm.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

5 hours ago, Guzzo.5274 said:

CC is useless if you have to bait 10 interrupts and cleanse 45 blinds before being able to land it...

ok, so you can't win vs thieves and mesmers. join the club.

[Fueki.4753]

While I believe that Warrior needs a big overhaul to be able to compete with current top builds,

I don't believe current Arenanet would give Warrior what it deserves.

 

The chances are too high that Warrior will end up even worse.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[aymnad.9023]

2 hours ago, Guzzo.5274 said:

 

Most of these classes don't need to cc to deal damage, contrary to warrior.

 

Warrior has to land a cc because most of his damage comes from 100B that locks you in place.

The goal of the post I answered to was “war is the only profession easy to understand how to fight” which you swapped to “warrior needs cc for damage”.

With this way of thinking I could easily say ranger lands its cc before landing damage, core necro need to land cc to get most of its damage, power reaper need to land their cc to get their damage, guard has to use blinks to land its damage because it lacks cc, power mesmer needs stealth to land its damage. 

Edited June 12, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Guzzo.5274]

19 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

With this way of thinking I could easily say ranger lands its cc before landing damage, core necro need to land cc to get most of its damage, power reaper need to land their cc to get their damage, guard has to use blinks to land its damage because it lacks cc, power mesmer needs stealth to land its damage. 

Ranger : Stealth, uncounterable

Necro doesn't really need cc, and can survive for ages

Guard doens't need to cc indeed, and a blink is much less predictable than a bull's charge or a shield bash

Mesmer : Stealth uncounterable

 

Let's summarize :

Option to counter a cc :

Bull's charge and Shield Bash : Stun, Daze, blinds, interrupt

Blink from guards : Dodge

Fear from necros : Dodge or blind

 

And only Ranger and mesmer are sidenoders in your list.

 

 

[Raizel.1839]

I like warrior for its simplicity, please don't kill it Anet. 

We already have other classes for players who like complicated rotations.

[aymnad.9023]

1 hour ago, Guzzo.5274 said:

Ranger : Stealth, uncounterable

Necro doesn't really need cc, and can survive for ages

Guard doens't need to cc indeed, and a blink is much less predictable than a bull's charge or a shield bash

Mesmer : Stealth uncounterable

Ranger : stealth on hit or huge aoe  = warned (+ they are used more defensively than offensively)

Necro : most of the damage comes from cc  / setup to either land reaper burst or allow condi to not be cleansed (+ damage on fear). Right now I think they are a bit too tanky and could get some LF decrease.

Guard : it is not that they do not need cc but they do not have enough cc outside of fb.

Power mesmer : do you want to compare the defenses like you did for necro? 

Quote

Let's summarize :

Option to counter a cc :

Bull's charge and Shield Bash : Stun, Daze, blinds, interrupt

Blink from guards : Dodge

Fear from necros : Dodge or blind

Bull's charge has an evade.

Blink from guard is usually followed by an ability (for guard it often is a channeled one) because it is not the source of damage. You can usually apply the same counter as for a cc because it does not interrupt.

Fear : you can also stun daze, blind, interrupt core necro and you can also blind reaper.

 

You have to realize that nothing is specific to a cc or a warrior.

 

Quote

And only Ranger and mesmer are sidenoders in your list.

Aaaanndd once again you are moving your posts to something different 😄 . 

 

Saying that war is the only one that uses cc as a setup, is affected by cc, blind or the damage is low would be ridiculous.

 

You can ask for some buffs like resolution or resistance (only in small doses to not remove counters and because spellbreaker has a lot) which I find fair. You could also change some heals to allow more variety which is something cruelly lacking. 

 

I also think some issues come from the e-specs. Spellbreaker is way too loaded (Defense, setup, utility) which means anything on core gets better. Berserker could be less all in with some sustain increase and damage reduction.

 

(also the cc duration / cd is way too generous in general)

Edited June 12, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Guzzo.5274]

59 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Ranger : stealth on hit or huge aoe  = warned (+ they are used more defensively than offensively)

Not with trapper rune, no

 

59 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Power mesmer : do you want to compare the defenses like you did for necro? 

I don't know well about power mesmer, but condi has a huge amount of evade and destroy you with passive condi while you are trying to burn all his evade skills

 

1 hour ago, aymnad.9023 said:

 

Saying that war is the only one that uses cc as a setup, is affected by cc, blind or the damage is low would be ridiculous.

I am clearly not saying that. Hard cc are lacking in this game, blind and soft cc are kings, way too much in my opinion.

 

Nerf soft cc, specially ones that procs passively like blinds, buff hard ccs because they pretty big tells.

 

Soft cc have too much presence in the game and prevent you from playing it.

 

With the resistance and retal change they have an amazing opportunity to give much more resistance across all classes and fix this issue.

 

Blind and weakness spam is not fun and forces you to condi cleanse with a meta with a thousand condis thrown at you every second...

[Math.5123]

Warrior sufferers in many of the same areas as core dps guard does. Mobility creep. 

Before I get into more detail I want to clear up some misconceptions. Warrior actually has one of the highest access to stability in the game with it being passive on full counter, and long duration on rampage.

 

It also has amazing soft CC cleanse from the use of any mobility skill. 

Buffing healing Signet to match mending (which is currently the strongest heal in the game) is a really really bad idea. It then offers very little counterplay outside of equipping doom sigil and time your weapon swaps with the warriors. 

 

Warrior as a class has very outdated skills. Again, like core guard. They have the damage, but not the means to land it. Tether helps a lot with this though, but you actually have to land your abilities to attach it. 

 

I also see a massive misunderstanding of other classes in this thread. Terms such as "passive condis", couldn't really be further from the truth when talking about condi mirage currently. It's a shatter spec, where if you tank their burst you will get loaded up with condis. 

 

I think I can speak for most of us when I say we don't want the old str spellbreaker to come back in full either. 

[Dadnir.5038]

I won't say that warrior don't need a lot of work, it does! That said it doesn't need a complete rework.

 

It would be nice if ANet's devs could spend a bit of time reworking all the trait with 300s CD (These traits are neither viable in PvP/WvW nor are they needed in PvE, they are a waste of traits slots).