If everyone uses it, and it is what you see a majority of, it is OP, not L2P

[Crab Fear.1624]

It is time to get off the L2P horse.

 

If a class is 3/10 of the match in natural queue, then it is suspect.

 

If a class is 4/10 of the match in natural queue, something about it is broken and abused. (far too rewarding for effort).

 

Literally the only data you need.

 

How did the last MAT go:?

[Shao.7236]

Depends, it's easy to pin point something OP by just looking at the pros vs cons.

 

Renegade Demolisher Shortbow is overplayed yet it's far from OP.

[Leonidrex.5649]

39 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Depends, it's easy to pin point something OP by just looking at the pros vs cons.

 

Renegade Demolisher Shortbow is overplayed yet it's far from OP.

nobody even pointed fingers at your precious rev, you dont have to insta defend it lul

 

[Grimjack.8130]

2 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

nobody even pointed fingers at your precious rev, you dont have to insta defend it lul

 

best part is renegade is 100% op compared to 90% of the meta game lmao i mean i guess if hes playing demo like its 2018 its bad lmao sorry but one of the best 5 specs in the game is far from op i guess

[Leonidrex.5649]

4 minutes ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

best part is renegade is 100% op compared to 90% of the meta game lmao i mean i guess if hes playing demo like its 2018 its bad lmao sorry but one of the best 5 specs in the game is far from op i guess

now we need to wait for holo monkeys to say holo is fine, couple necros so say its fine and maybe a guard or 2 saying that revive speed is fine and we are golden

EDIT
add couple of peeps saying its condi meta and bring resist back since condi opop

Edited June 27, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Depends, it's easy to pin point something OP by just looking at the pros vs cons.

 

Renegade Demolisher Shortbow is overplayed yet it's far from OP.

Yeah...all these MAT teams winning with drake pet alone, by comparison renegade totally fine....

[Widmo.3186]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Yeah...all these MAT teams winning with drake pet alone, by comparison renegade totally fine....

dRaKe PeT iS tOTaLly BrOkEn, I dont get it how it can be se op and yet not nerfed, holymoly, thats the biggest problem we have right now and ANet is not doing a single thing to fix it!

 

Im not gonna participate in such nonsense, I refuse to play till drake pet gets nerfed, also I REFUSE to dodge that skill just to show how OP it is...also pls dont touch rev, it could hurt my boy feelings 😞 

 

 

no, but like for real, that drake thread was really funny, pretending you are competent person and then this happens xD

Edited June 27, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Shao.7236]

Clap clap. Good memes, I never thought people could be this oblivious to the sentence "When pets" not "When Drakes", let's just leave the possibility of having 10 different skills with broken co-efficients randomly be a factor in the fight instead of maybe giving actual damage to the player, then again as if there's none currently and neither is the playstyle really risky.

 

You can whine and cry about Renegade, have it nerfed to oblivion even, I couldn't care less. I farm them and I am more than glad to have it easier if that's what you want lol. Go right on ahead and make it easy for me. Nerf core, nerf herald, nerf my entire class. I still played it before and still will, act like I never said I wanted anything nerfed about it. Not like it's plastered on metabattle or on my own posts because it's too hard to figure it out yourself.

 

 If I want to play it, I play zerk with max crit like anyone should instead of this boring upkeep camping. Always have always will.

[Leonidrex.5649]

5 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Clap clap. Good memes, I never thought people could be this oblivious to the sentence "When pets" not "When Drakes", let's just leave the possibility of having 10 different skills with broken co-efficients randomly be a factor in the fight instead of maybe giving actual damage to the player, then again as if there's none currently and neither is the playstyle really risky.

 

You can whine and cry about Renegade, have it nerfed to oblivion even, I couldn't care less. I farm them and I am more than glad to have it easier if that's what you want lol. Go right on ahead and make it easy for me. Nerf core, nerf herald, nerf my entire class. I still played it before and still will, act like I never said I wanted anything nerfed about it. Not like it's plastered on metabattle or on my own posts because it's too hard to figure it out yourself.

 

 If I want to play it, I play zerk with max crit like anyone should instead of this boring upkeep camping. Always have always will.

you said 
" 

Rangers are perfectly capable to play without pets, why do they have to be so bloated anymore, adjust all co-efficient already. Not just one by one, this is more damage than Furious Pounce and that skill is still a lot of free damage while players can just dance around and free cast you as that Tiger CONSTANTLY does it to you on a low CD

 

Is it not enough to have 2 low CD stunbreaks? Best weapons in the game? AI that gets in the way of everything? Smokefield on a very low CD for constant chains of sustain?? 
"
I see nothing indicating any buffs to the player and nerfs to pet, in fact, you seem to think that ranger is good without pet, and pet is just shoved it as that OP AI thing. If that was the case you would see rangers winning mat, and ranger being meta.
but its rev, its always rev. When 1 rev build gets nerfed another one takes its place.
Rev is played by the best and the best tend to win ya?

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[Shao.7236]

35 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

you said 
" 

Rangers are perfectly capable to play without pets, why do they have to be so bloated anymore, adjust all co-efficient already. Not just one by one, this is more damage than Furious Pounce and that skill is still a lot of free damage while players can just dance around and free cast you as that Tiger CONSTANTLY does it to you on a low CD

 

Is it not enough to have 2 low CD stunbreaks? Best weapons in the game? AI that gets in the way of everything? Smokefield on a very low CD for constant chains of sustain?? 
"
I see nothing indicating any buffs to the player and nerfs to pet, in fact, you seem to think that ranger is good without pet, and pet is just shoved it as that OP AI thing. If that was the case you would see rangers winning mat, and ranger being meta.
but its rev, its always rev. When 1 rev build gets nerfed another one takes its place.
Rev is played by the best and the best tend to win ya?

So I am the one who should come up with all the solutions for everyone while people wait for any criticism to just bandwagon on? Nobody has ever come with a sensible approach for me to argue with. "Lol you can hit for 10k on downstate light armored." Is the only thing I ever got. Idk where's the criticism at? Anyone? Not even "Deathstrike is stupidly quick and should be slowed?" "Herald F2 Shiro shouldn't deal damage or not instant?"

 

It's been demonstrated many times with Ranger but from a Mesmer it sure ain't issue to deal with pets when half of your sustain comes from the same that screw with your own profession, Stealth and bad AI, at least clones die quick, at least they have an obvious yet instant "Shatter" visual that could be improved on mechnically.

 

Where's Herald now? Why can't it use skills as freely? (Limited Stunbreaks compared Renegade/Core, shocker!) While it barely shares enough DPS to compare, that DPS still higher than Renegade though.

 

Why is Renegade up in the meta builds? Safe access to damage? Check. Average Sustain? Check. Great mobility(With target requirement)? Check. Where is all the praise coming from if they're still just as easy to delete when they ever get slightly greedy. They're still Revs playing in a safer approach, Demolishers makes it even more casual and boring. As it is, Revs always makes it up there because it can get around the map easily on Snowballs, nothing else. Catch one mid rotation/attack after Phase Traversal and theres 1 chance out of 2 they'll have to just suck it up because they change legends too freely.

 

You gonna talk about Bunkers Revs? Where are they now? Am I complaining? Did I ever? Ventari CC was dumb, glad it's gone. Mallyx was spanked into uselessness even though it could have been handled otherwise with less cringe to carry it. (That I didn't rely on either.)

 

Are current meta builds even that good? Why do people care about meaningless snowballs in mat? Mosts games are defined by a unique 1v1 then a constant set of snowballs until players work it out together again, Revenant while it's their greatest Power asset are the most weak after Phase Traversal for mobility, not enough players ever capitalizes on that, esp the greedy ones.

 

I don't have many deranged issues with the current meta outside few niches, D/P gets carried by Shadow Shot blind duration, Protection Holo doesn't give me problems and eventually melts to their greedy pressure, I just stomp Renegades and think the Demolisher build is casual and overrated, Guardian Support eventually melts, Scourge is Scourge with 5k instant Barrier to stop any bursts, nothing else worthy of mention.

 

Anyway, outside memes. Have you provided anything for me to talk about? Don't think so. Is there ever anything? I do criticize Revenant, maybe pay attention. It's not that hard to wrap your head around. You're talking to the only main Rev who agree'd to Riposting Shadows nerf let along the few that wanted Empty Vessel gone. I sure as hell know a bit about what makes sense and what doesn't in this game.

 

If you can keep a straight face and tell me that it's okay for pets no matter the way they do it to deal just as much/more damage than any players on glass. I don't think I would ever reason with you. MAT doesn't mean jack when it comes to the things they can do in 1v1 and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

 

Want to give Rangers 1200 targeted teleport? Go ahead, see what makes it into meta overnight. I'd honestly prefer that over having to deal with volatile pets that "can" be used in reliable ways.

 

Should you also disgree that Ranger weapons apparently suck? Have you ever said anything with substance other than memes? Can't remember, all I can think of is "I tested on Heavy Golem" aka not a comparable situation while Light Golem is at least similar to a heavy armor, all of it is all ignoring that Medium and Light would take ever more damage, I'd go as far to say that this "Drake" could one shot a Elementalist or Thief with that damage while Ranger is running a sustain amulet. That's hilarious to think about, but obviously the excuse would be try and do it while the argument here is the possibility being stupid, however that easily goes above anyones head.

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shao.7236 so many words so little of them have any value
1 power herald is in a better spot then ranger
2 you wanted pets nerfed, and said that ranger without a pet is already good enough, you mentioned nothing about compensations within your post.
3 people play sb renegade due to it being good and easy value, when and IF it gets nerfed they will move back to power herald or other rev build, as almost every single rev skill is bloated to kitten, its just a matter of time.
4 complain about pherald dps PLEASE, they can teleport through kittening walls and 100%-0% people within 1,5s 
 

[RedAvenged.5217]

How’d this turn to a ranger thread- I’ll admit ranger is in a good spot since they got rid of resistance. It’s the opposite of unfun though and just A teir on 2 builds(3 if u count 1 shot builds against bad players but common). Bigger worries than this class even if 1 or 2 things are on the periphery of very good rn.

 

edit: ranger is not playable without a pet. If you want to be a god teir 1v1er on ranger you need to kite a lot- without the pet you will do no damage in many spots and become the most unreliable 1v1er in the game.

Edited June 27, 2021 by RedAvenged.5217

[ArthurDent.9538]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 so many words so little of them have any value
1 power herald is in a better spot then ranger
2 you wanted pets nerfed, and said that ranger without a pet is already good enough, you mentioned nothing about compensations within your post.
3 people play sb renegade due to it being good and easy value, when and IF it gets nerfed they will move back to power herald or other rev build, as almost every single rev skill is bloated to kitten, its just a matter of time.
4 complain about pherald dps PLEASE, they can teleport through kittening walls and 100%-0% people within 1,5s 
 

Saw a lot more ranger's (core, sb, and druid) in yesterday's mat than I saw power heralds including 2 in the EU finals. People just thinking power herald has always been good when played by good players so it still must be good even though its been nerfed to kitten, has losing matchups against almost the entire meta, and sees almost no top tier play just sometimes rofl stomping baddies in ranked. But yeah power herald op.

Edited June 27, 2021 by ArthurDent.9538

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 so many words so little of them have any value
1 power herald is in a better spot then ranger
2 you wanted pets nerfed, and said that ranger without a pet is already good enough, you mentioned nothing about compensations within your post.
3 people play sb renegade due to it being good and easy value, when and IF it gets nerfed they will move back to power herald or other rev build, as almost every single rev skill is bloated to kitten, its just a matter of time.
4 complain about pherald dps PLEASE, they can teleport through kittening walls and 100%-0% people within 1,5s 
 

Memes memes memes, I'm so funny.

 

1 Power herald easily gets deleted by any focus, shiro port is extremely predictable and vulnerable to cc. Unlike all of the Ranger options.

2 Ranger doesn't need compensations for something that dodged nerf hammer AND has measurably absurd numbers. It's factually shown, even if I just mentionned damage shifting.

3 Revenants mechanically can't be offensive and defensive at the same time, you ever thought about that? Maybe you'd know why most utility skills are strong but use at least 30-40% from 50%, with merely two CC's it's possible to shut them down if you don't faceroll on all the telegraphs one after another. Try and shut down a Ranger with 2 low cd stunbreaks, 2 low cd stealths, Block, Evade, CC's and an ankle bitter. I'll give 10G to the person that can actually show me a good ranger in 1v1 being unable to do anything for 3 seconds. That's if you can even stop one from cycling in and out safely with no noticeable gap of exposure reliably and no you can't mirror the fight. I can do it to relentless effort which is not something that I should have to do when I am 100% compensating for everything, it's the only class that does it, not even prot holo can dance around as much.

4 Mesmers can 100-0 people from Stealth, so can Rangers and Thieves. If you're not a slowpoke, you can survive anything including Revenant. Thief Steal can teleport through walls, Guardian Judge Intervention can teleport throught walls. What's your point? People can't do what Anet is to blame for?

 

@RedAvenged.5217People like to meme, that's why it turned into a Ranger thread. Pets are at best dodge wasters, the owners they can still effectively take down someone with several other advantages that haven't been mentioned. How is it justified to have the possibility of dealing burst level of damage for missing everything else is my issue here. "Reasonable levels" means adjusting, not destroying the entire skillset.

 

If I dodge Maul then get blasted by the pet damage bonus because AO is obtained even on miss, then what? Double dodge? There's so many anomalies in the balance of Ranger, it's just stupid.

 

If I get hit for 7k, what does a light armor gets hit for? 10k? Why is it stupid to think that damage is just a little too high? I ain't asking for cc co-efficients.

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Kuma.1503]

This thread is the equivalent of "If everyone says it's true it must be true". I hope OP never runs into a pyramid scheme irl. 

[Arheundel.6451]

Another  thread on the line :"your class is OP!......not yours is!"

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

20 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

It is time to get off the L2P horse.

 

If a class is 3/10 of the match in natural queue, then it is suspect.

 

If a class is 4/10 of the match in natural queue, something about it is broken and abused. (far too rewarding for effort).

 

Literally the only data you need.

 

How did the last MAT go:?

 

It could also be that a large portion of the userbase is unwilling or incapable of making minor  playstyle adjustments, and so certain classes that have to be matchupped a certain way have more success than they would if people took a utility against them. The skill floor is really kitten high in Gw2, so it wouldnt surprise me if a large portion of people just...couldn't play. I am not defending or attacking any particular build  here, but you would be surprised how large the leap is from newcomer to vet in pvp.  

 

It's frustrating to hear people defend what lends itself to being defined as objectively broken nonsense, but lets not lean all the way to the other extreme and claim the bandwagon mob is the be all, end all opinion on things just to make a point. That outcome is just as bad and partly what got us in this mess to begin with. 

 

Case by case basis, please. If its OP nobody will be able to defend it without resorting to ad hominem when its under a microscope. If its balanced people will suggest counters, and if those counters or reasonable you learned a thing. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Crab Fear.1624]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

This thread is the equivalent of "If everyone says it's true it must be true". I hope OP never runs into a pyramid scheme irl. 

When there is always a line at the BBQ joint, there are two reasons why.

 

The BBQ is really good, or there are no others BBQs around

[Leonidrex.5649]

6 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Saw a lot more ranger's (core, sb, and druid) in yesterday's mat than I saw power heralds including 2 in the EU finals. People just thinking power herald has always been good when played by good players so it still must be good even though its been nerfed to kitten, has losing matchups against almost the entire meta, and sees almost no top tier play just sometimes rofl stomping baddies in ranked. But yeah power herald op.

watched the mat.
every single team with more rangers was losing vs teams with less rangers.
In fact I saw nothing interesting from the rangers, if anything druid from prestige did better then all the other soulbeasts/core rangers from all other teams did.
people found a  new thing, and next mat nobody will play range again, everyone will go back to same old kitten

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

When there is always a line at the BBQ joint, there are two reasons why.

 

The BBQ is really good, or there are no others BBQs around

 

Or through sheer force of marketing that joint became the most popular joint. Maybe they managed to engrain their restaurant into the culture of the area. The BBQ could be very average in actuality, but it's popular, it's familiar, it's comforting, so you go again and again. So do your friends. 

 

Playrate =/= Strength. 

Playrate at the highest level of play (Yes, including MAT) =/= Strength. 

 

There is a correlation between the two, but correlation =/= causation. 

 

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

47 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

Or through sheer force of marketing that joint became the most popular joint. Maybe they managed to engrain their restaurant into the culture of the area. The BBQ could be very average in actuality, but it's popular, it's familiar, it's comforting, so you go again and again. So do your friends. 

 

Playrate =/= Strength. 

Playrate at the highest level of play (Yes, including MAT) =/= Strength. 

 

There is a correlation between the two, but correlation =/= causation. 

 

 

 

Don't bother reading it, I was just on a rant while my spouse was playing some games, and I couldnt sleep lol.....

 

 

 

 

Because we can predict the weather with reasonable accuracy, and shopping patterns, and the music people will like, and even what you might eat for breakfast, there has to be something(s) that would be evidence of a class being strong.

 

Lot's of people playing a certain class in competitive, and even manipulating the MM to make sure they can still play it, exceeding the desirable limitation (2 per team, 4 per game).....this is not evidence of strength.

 

playrate=/=strength

 

I think what motivates the playrate is = strength, in some sense.

 

From one major(ish) patch to another, we see a shift in META and also in playrates.

 

Most effective tactic available (or discovered), and accepted by the community is one INDICATOR of strength.

 

At what levels does the META apply?

 

Is there a skill floor for certain METAs?

 

I would wager there is, because one of the defense for the strength of a class is its presence in the MAT.

 Another defense is how complicated it is to play for a user.

 

If you are not in the MAT, you really are not a problem (or so "they" say)

If you are very difficult to play, and high IQ gameplay is a must, then strength is okay.

 

So high level meta is not accessible for all, and some METAS are not present at high level play.

 

---

 

What about the METAS that are accessible for all and present at ALL levels of play?

 

This indicates it is usable at even the lowest level, and can be used at the highest level, by both low IQ and high IQ players, results obviously varying.

 

Now, if the same players are put on the high IQ meta?

 

Well the high end player would do well, and the silver player might even lose more rating.

 

What about the metas not in highest level of play?

 

Perhaps a high IQ player will make it work, and that will be his/her/their main and what they are known for, but the gold player will discover soon enough they lack the mechanics to be effective at higher levels and it no longer works to climb the greasy ladder of ranked.

 

So, back to the META that does well at all levels, why is it META at all levels?

 

Everyone from IQ 1 to ∞ can use it, and be effective to their maximum skill level for their ability.

 

That means if all you can do it lay your face on your keyboard and roll, then you will have the best results, or if you are playing with your feet while typing your next NYT best seller with your hands, you will still dominate.

 

HIGH ACCESS, and META is STRENGTH, and so HIGH STRENGTH

 

So the problem is the access and the relative strength. The reward and the risk equation is being broke.

 

You are saying that strength=/=playrate, but perhaps it does.

 

Perhaps it is not.

 

Perhaps it is all coincidence and players play those classes when they are deemed METAs without even realizing it while they were knocking out achievements.

 

 

BUT

 

I have seen lots of testimonies for certain classes over the years, and when talking about the complaints, we see 9/10 it is focused on the LCD META, the one with the highest access across all levels.

 

SO, even if strength is not related to playrate, there needs to be action for intellectual input, mechanical effort, and the rating due to effectiveness of a particular build.

 

Two builds, One Person

 

If we let a high level player use two builds on two accounts, one for each, and bottom them out at 1000 rating, and then ask them to climb as high as they can go using only that particular build for the respective account, would they reach the same rating? 

 

Possibly.

 

One build would be a high level meta, and the other build would be an all access meta.

 

Now, how about taking the same experiment with Pepe?

 

The rating could be Silver, and then the other Gold 3-Plat.

 

Artificial Skill? Skill Replacement? This is called a carry build?

Pepe might try to copy every thing Action Figure Jay can do, but ultimately will not be able to replicate the performance, especially after a certain level.

If the build also dictates how high that level is, is it a carry build?

Well, remember Action Figure Jay was able to perform the same across both builds.

 

This is an enhancement.

 

What is the advantage?

 

A willingness to bandwagon. Cast aside your mains, and play what works best and is easiest and gets the most results. Even if you don't understand it.

 

My educated guess, and most realistically, based on observation of the past....pepes are flocking to what is the strongest, and I bet the real data confirms it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 

Don't bother reading it, I was just on a rant while my spouse was playing some games, and I couldnt sleep lol.....

 

 

Lol. Nothing helps put a restless mind at ease quite like ranting on a video game forum.

 

The rest of your post was a lot to take in, but I believe the gist of what you're saying is that the power of a build can be gauged by a mixture of playrate + difficulty + presence in high/low rated games and... for the most part yes, all of these variables do help you gauge how good a build is. When Anet aludes to the "data" they fall back on to do their balance changes, I reckon these are some of the things they look at. 

 

It is very important not to confuse a correlation, even a strong correlation with an actual cause. It causes us to come to some... unfortunate conclusions. 

 

Extreme example:

 

Everyone in MAT starts playing core engi for reasons unexplained. Core engi's playrate skyrockets. If playrate = strength then this would make core engi an OP meta build, but we know intuitively that that's not true. It's not strong, it's just a bunch of high level players memeing. 

 

What about a more relevant example?

 

We had that recent HoT only tournament that just happened. Because of the limited pool of elite specs and ranger pets available, someone decided to run a Drake pet for the first time since dinosaurs walked the earth. The drake hit somebody for 7k, and now people actually want drakes  nerfed in PvP. One of, if not the single most useless  pet types next to bears. 

 

All because the drake had a decent playrate in high level PvP. People confused prescence in MAT with the pet actually being strong, they ignored the context, they hardly bothered to apply critical thinking to the situation, they simply looked at a drake in MAT and asumed that must mean it's OP. 

 

This doesn't just apply to video games, the difference between correlation and causation is an important distinction to make in other walks of life as well including health and finance. Just because a bunch of people are following a fad diet doesn't mean the diet is good. Even if the people marketing the diet to you are all appear to be in good shape. 

 

It's how the advertisers get ya.