Arcane Thievery Changes Destroyed the Utility Skill

[Jables.4659]

The most obvious issue with the change is that requiring a target means that you can't dry-fire the spell to gain super-speed with Master of Manipulations, but the real issue lies with the undocumented nerf of requiring line of sight.  If you are running from a group of enemies and want to give yourself super-speed and get rid of your conditions, you literally need to stop running and turn around to cast your utility cleanse.  Since Master of Manipulations has been nerfed down to 1.5s of Superspeed in pvp/wvw, this is a fruitless endeavor.  If you get immobilized, you literally can not cast Arcane Thievery to get rid of it unless your opponent is kind enough to stand directly in your line of sight as you are unable to move and face your target.  Normal attacks will automatically face you to your target if they require line of sight, but Arcane Thievery doesn't do this (Its new behavior is similar to Ray of Justice).  This change has destroyed so much of the abilities functionality and made it extremely unreliable as a condition management tool.  I am begging the Devs to take another look at this utility skill as the current implementation is not working. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Last time I've checked Mesmer have something that is called "Mantra of Resolve" which is used to clear conditions, yet you complain about "Arcane Thievery" which is not condi cleanse, but a condition/boon transfer to/from another player, 2 completely different things. 
Don't know about you, but that skill literally screams "IT NEEDS TARGET TO WORK" when you read it's effects... Firing it into thin air to get it's benefits wasn't really smartest thing to implement into the game in the first place.
 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

7 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

"Arcane Thievery" which is not condi cleanse

I'mma stop you right there chief. You have conditions on you, then you use it, then you have no more conditions on you; it's a condi cleanse. Everything else is mental gymnastics.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Terrorhuz.4695

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

51 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I'mma stop you right there chief. You have conditions on you, then you use it, then you have no more conditions on you; it's a condi cleanse. Everything else is mental gymnastics.

Won't change the fact that it's condi transfer and not condi cleanse lol, for you it may be "cleanse" but in reality it's "transfer", which are completely two different things.
They may change the owner but they haven't vanished into thin air.
I'm pretty sure Plague Signet have similar mechanic.

[Quadox.7834]

Yep, the skill is way worse now, the rework needs to be reverted.

[Leonidrex.5649]

this is why mesmer will always be kicked in the nut.
skills get changed to be mechanically kittened and the crowd claps in amazement and weeps in joy.
1 less usable cleanse on mesmer boys, only ones left is EM on mirage ( passive kitten ) and inspiration ( passive kitten )

Mantra of Resolve is a joke of a skill. Every single condi cleanse skill that only cleanses is a joke skill. Every single build uses multipurpose skills for condi cleanse for a reason.

[Kodama.6453]

32 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

this is why mesmer will always be kicked in the nut.
skills get changed to be mechanically kittened and the crowd claps in amazement and weeps in joy.
1 less usable cleanse on mesmer boys, only ones left is EM on mirage ( passive kitten ) and inspiration ( passive kitten )

Mantra of Resolve is a joke of a skill. Every single condi cleanse skill that only cleanses is a joke skill. Every single build uses multipurpose skills for condi cleanse for a reason.

I am pretty sure that it is factually wrong that people are not using condi cleanses which just condi cleanse.

[Leonidrex.5649]

11 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I am pretty sure that it is factually wrong that people are not using condi cleanses which just condi cleanse.

feel free to post a meta build that devotes entire skill slot for something that cleanses and does nothing else.
I couldnt even find a decent build that would do that, closest thing I can think off is shake it off from warrior and thats used for removing CC on top of cleansing.

[bethekey.8314]

11 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Last time I've checked Mesmer have something that is called "Mantra of Resolve" which is used to clear conditions, yet you complain about "Arcane Thievery" which is not condi cleanse, but a condition/boon transfer to/from another player, 2 completely different things. 
Don't know about you, but that skill literally screams "IT NEEDS TARGET TO WORK" when you read it's effects... Firing it into thin air to get it's benefits wasn't really smartest thing to implement into the game in the first place.

 

This. There is a clear difference between cleanse and transfer. "Everything else is mental gymnastics" as that one kid said, albeit to make a bad point. This allows additional counterplay, like stealthing, to prevent someone from transferring their conditions to you.

 

13 hours ago, Jables.4659 said:

This change has destroyed so much of the abilities functionality and made it extremely unreliable as a condition management tool.

 

You give the one example of immobilize and being unable to turn, which, to my knowledge, is the case for many other abilities requiring targets and line of sight too. I understand that being frustrating, yes, but it's commonplace.

 

Otherwise, I don't understand why requiring you to face your target for a condi transfer is so skill breaking ("extremely", "mechanically kittened"). If they hit you with condi, you should be able to hit them back in most cases.

[Jables.4659]

The issue isn't just that a random skill requires line of sight.  The issue is that the skills purpose and trait interactions directly conflict with requiring line of sight.  Before you reply, I want you to try something.  Log onto whatever class you main and find an enemy.  Stand still with your character angled slightly away from the enemy so that you don't have perfect line of sight and then press an attack (preferably ranged).  After that, swap to Mesmer and do the exact same thing with Arcane Thievery.  Assuming your main and chosen skill isn't Guardian and Ray of Justice, you will notice the problem.  I'm not aware of any other skills in the game with this weird behavior. 

[Jables.4659]

9 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I'm pretty sure Plague Signet have similar mechanic.

You're pretty sure, but you're wrong.  Plague Signet works exactly the same way Arcane Thievery worked prior to them breaking the skill.  It does not require a target to activate and does not require line of sight in order to transfer conditions.  This is how condition transfer abilities need to work in order to properly function.  Apparently the rules are different for Mesmer. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

Honestly this and mantra changes came out of nowhere, and just made me never use those skills again.
if this is what the devs wanted then GJ you did it lads.

Meanwhile nades holo throws nades through his back lulW

Edited June 28, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[JazzXman.7018]

8 hours ago, Jables.4659 said:

The issue isn't just that a random skill requires line of sight.  The issue is that the skills purpose and trait interactions directly conflict with requiring line of sight.  Before you reply, I want you to try something.  Log onto whatever class you main and find an enemy.  Stand still with your character angled slightly away from the enemy so that you don't have perfect line of sight and then press an attack (preferably ranged).  After that, swap to Mesmer and do the exact same thing with Arcane Thievery.  Assuming your main and chosen skill isn't Guardian and Ray of Justice, you will notice the problem.  I'm not aware of any other skills in the game with this weird behavior. 

what rly breaks the skill and mantras is not the line of sight requirement (that one is fair and needed) its the face your target requirement.

 

sadly that is what is happening when the very few remaining devs dont rly know the game into its depts or dont understand a class in that game (no ip chrono, one dodge mirage lulz/cry). its not the first skill they added face your target requirement without adding automatic char alignment and while having a face your target angle of like 20 degree what is a joke for a fast paced/ movement based game like gw2. and ofc while no line of sight/ obstructed bugs happen all over the place even on flat ground for no reasons. 

 

on mantras you cannot add automatic char alignment since they are instant, thats why face your target requirement for them was the biggest unlogical nonsense and a clunky change treatening them very unfair. esp since it would be way better to just rework the (old) too spammable pure offensive mantra of pain into something more defensive. mantra cds are also still overnerfed a little bit (fb and mesmer). sadly pve guys seems to be too happy about the missing active recharge after every map change that they dont care about cds. and without pve ppl accidently complaining about the right stuff we will not see fair balance it seems. instead lets buff scourge one more time since im sure it is still underperforming in pve 🙂

 

arcane is stupid strong and sure not only a condi clease (i would even give it a bit longer casttime and better animation), so i dont rly mind a face your target requirement nerf . but it even has a casttime so no problem to add at least automatic char alignment to it and make it like mantras usable without target for the superspeed/ quickness part which doesnt need a target interaction anyway. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by JazzXman.7018

[GewRoo.4172]

the rework is of this skill made it so clunky i can't even put it into words. los? fair. face your target? well, then why is there no auto alignment? i am very sure the cast of this skill right now doesn't work as intended. the cast is bugged 2/3 times although i have los and face the enemy. don't rework aged mechanics. it's just stupid for both ends.

[Jables.4659]

5 hours ago, GewRoo.4172 said:

the rework is of this skill made it so clunky i can't even put it into words. los? fair. face your target? well, then why is there no auto alignment? i am very sure the cast of this skill right now doesn't work as intended. the cast is bugged 2/3 times although i have los and face the enemy. don't rework aged mechanics. it's just stupid for both ends.

My suspicion is that it has to do with the combination of requiring a target to activate and requiring LOS (which implies facing your target).  As I've said before, I can only think of one other ability in the game that works this way which is Guardian Focus 4 (Ray of Justice) and its just as annoying to activate.  Granted its more forgivable because it isn't a cleanse. 

[Quadox.7834]

21 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

This. There is a clear difference between cleanse and transfer. "Everything else is mental gymnastics" as that one kid said, albeit to make a bad point. This allows additional counterplay, like stealthing, to prevent someone from transferring their conditions to you.

No. Stealth was a counter to Arcane Thievery before the patch just the same as after the patch. You didn't get any of the effects of the AT if you used it without a target. You didnt get remove your conditions, which is what you seem to be implying here. The only effect you got was the traited superspeed on manipulation skill use. Which is what OP is talking about.

21 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

You give the one example of immobilize and being unable to turn, which, to my knowledge, is the case for many other abilities requiring targets and line of sight too. I understand that being frustrating, yes, but it's commonplace.

No. Normally skills will make you auto-face your target. For example Mirror blade, or Epidemic, or Blood is Power, or Corrupt Boon, etc etc. But Arcane Thievery doesn't do this.

21 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Otherwise, I don't understand why requiring you to face your target for a condi transfer is so skill breaking ("extremely", "mechanically kittened"). If they hit you with condi, you should be able to hit them back in most cases.

"I don't understand" no of course *you* don't, because you 1. don't play mesmer 2. haven't tested the skill 3. don't know the mechanics of the skill or the game, as described above.

 

Stick to core engi.

[Quadox.7834]

58 minutes ago, Jables.4659 said:

My suspicion is that it has to do with the combination of requiring a target to activate and requiring LOS (which implies facing your target).  As I've said before, I can only think of one other ability in the game that works this way which is Guardian Focus 4 (Ray of Justice) and its just as annoying to activate.  Granted its more forgivable because it isn't a cleanse. 

Yeah defensive abilities need to be more consistent and lenient, hence why so many of them are instant. I mean plague signet, the closest equivalent skill, not only doesn't require you to face your target, but is also instant.

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

No. Stealth was a counter to Arcane Thievery before the patch just the same as after the patch. You didn't get any of the effects of the AT if you used it without a target. You didnt get remove your conditions, which is what you seem to be implying here. The only effect you got was the traited superspeed on manipulation skill use. Which is what OP is talking about.

 

Yes, the point was that Arcane Thievery isn't a cleanse.

On 6/27/2021 at 12:29 AM, Jables.4659 said:

and want to give yourself super-speed and get rid of your conditions, you literally need to stop running and turn around to cast your utility cleanse

 

Here's "what OP was talking about", a direct quote that 1. calls it a cleanse and 2. says get rid of conditions in addition to the superspeed. He wasn't only talking about getting superspeed.

 

2 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

No. Normally skills will make you auto-face your target. For example Mirror blade, or Epidemic, or Blood is Power, or Corrupt Boon, etc etc. But Arcane Thievery doesn't do this.

 

We're talking about two different things here. Unless it changed after the first few years in the game, you can't turn while immobilized. Meaning all skills that would normally turn you and require facing target won't work.

 

Arcane Thievery not auto-turning you when not immobilized, standing still, and requiring facing target sounds annoying and should be changed.

 

2 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

"I don't understand" no of course *you* don't, because you 1. don't play mesmer 2. haven't tested the skill 3. don't know the mechanics of the skill or the game, as described above.

 

Stick to core engi.

 

You seem sensitive and disgruntled, honestly. Like you're actively trying to find things to argue about. No need for firing shots, or reducing constructive conversations across classes.

[Jables.4659]

19 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Here's "what OP was talking about", a direct quote that 1. calls it a cleanse and 2. says get rid of conditions in addition to the superspeed. He wasn't only talking about getting superspeed.

I was referring to both removing your conditions and gaining super-speed as reasons why requiring you to face your target is a problem.  If you're trying to disengage from a fight but need to turn around and face your target (which means you are no longer running away from them) in order to gain the 1.5s of superspeed offered by the skill/trait interaction then it isn't worth doing.  The need to face your target in order to remove your conditions is just as problematic as it means you are unable to do so while kiting and literally can't use the skill when immobilized (unless your target stands in a very specific point in space).

 

As far as me referring to it as a cleanse, it feels as though you're being deliberately obtuse.  The skill's primary use is to transfer conditions and steal boons.  When you use the skill to its maximum potential, it removes conditions from the player.  The pre-nerf version of the skill worked the same as other condition transfer abilities currently (and have always worked) so I don't understand why anyone is placing significance on that.

 

If the devs wanted to nerf the skill, why not remove the extraneous quickness/slow that was added post launch?  This wasn't even a case of taking the lowest effort means of nerfing something on Mesmer (as with one-dodge mirage).  This nerf feels malicious to me. I don't see a world where someone could make this change thinking they're actually improving the product they're supposed to represent.

 

[Quadox.7834]

On 6/28/2021 at 7:01 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

 

Yes, the point was that Arcane Thievery isn't a cleanse.

This has nothing to do with the AT rework, which is trash and should be reverted.

Quote

Here's "what OP was talking about", a direct quote that 1. calls it a cleanse and 2. says get rid of conditions in addition to the superspeed. He wasn't only talking about getting superspeed.

No, OP does not want to remove conditions without hitting a target. He is saying that removing the ability to use the skill without a target is bad because the strategic option of dry-firing it to get superspeed was an intetesting gameplay option that is dumb to remove (why dumb down skills and reduce options unnecessarily).

Quote

 

We're talking about two different things here. Unless it changed after the first few years in the game, you can't turn while immobilized. Meaning all skills that would normally turn you and require facing target won't work.

 

Arcane Thievery not auto-turning you when not immobilized, standing still, and requiring facing target sounds annoying and should be changed.

Of course, that's what I'm saying and this is why you should not comment on mesmer skills since you don't know how they work.

Quote

You seem sensitive and disgruntled, honestly. Like you're actively trying to find things to argue about. No need for firing shots, or reducing constructive conversations across classes.

Hahahahahahhahah YOU are the one who is trying to find stuff to argue about. All mesmers (i.e. the players who have actually tried the skill) recognise that this rework was terrible and are calling out anet on their bad decision. You then come in to argue and defend the rework, even though you never use the skill and don't know how it works, for no reason.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Quadox.7834]

On 6/29/2021 at 2:43 PM, Jables.4659 said:

I was referring to both removing your conditions and gaining super-speed as reasons why requiring you to face your target is a problem.  If you're trying to disengage from a fight but need to turn around and face your target (which means you are no longer running away from them) in order to gain the 1.5s of superspeed offered by the skill/trait interaction then it isn't worth doing.  The need to face your target in order to remove your conditions is just as problematic as it means you are unable to do so while kiting and literally can't use the skill when immobilized (unless your target stands in a very specific point in space).

 

As far as me referring to it as a cleanse, it feels as though you're being deliberately obtuse.  The skill's primary use is to transfer conditions and steal boons.  When you use the skill to its maximum potential, it removes conditions from the player.  The pre-nerf version of the skill worked the same as other condition transfer abilities currently (and have always worked) so I don't understand why anyone is placing significance on that.

 

If the devs wanted to nerf the skill, why not remove the extraneous quickness/slow that was added post launch?  This wasn't even a case of taking the lowest effort means of nerfing something on Mesmer (as with one-dodge mirage).  This nerf feels malicious to me. I don't see a world where someone could make this change thinking they're actually improving the product they're supposed to represent.

 

Exactly. And this is their fundamental problem, they always add skills that do way too much at once and then have to nerf the CD/numbers to compensate when they should just simplify the skills. Like phase traversal, they have had to increase the cooldown and energy cost multiple times when the first thing they should do is rather remove the quickness/unblockable. Or choking gas, which has an uber high cost now. Purity of purpose!

Edited July 3, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Math.5123]

Can confirm, it works the same way Scepter 3 and focus 4 does on guardian and its borderline unusable at times. 

[Jables.4659]

On 7/3/2021 at 2:11 PM, Quadox.7834 said:

Exactly. And this is their fundamental problem, they always add skills that do way too much at once and then have to nerf the CD/numbers to compensate when they should just simplify the skills.

My assumption here is that very few (if any) devs working on balance were around for the inception of the skills they are balancing.  It's likely that many have come and gone since GW2 launch.  This revolving door of employees results in a downward shift regarding the balance team's understanding of each class as time goes on.  If you needed to push out changes to show your player-base that you're trying to improve balance but don't have an intimate understanding of why things are the way they are for each class, it probably feels a lot safer to mess with things like skill cooldowns, power damage coefficients, and condition stacks/durations.  At the same time, adding additional functionality to an ability is less likely to cause fan outrage than removing functionality, so we end up with a skill like Arcane Thievery that transfers conditions, steals boons, grants the user quickness, inflicts slow on the enemy, and grants super-speed to the caster when traited.  I would revert the needs target/facing target change, remove quickness/slow from the skill, and slightly buff the super-speed duration on Master of Manipulations (+1s or +1.5s) as Core Mesmer is in serious need of Mobility.  I get it, it's not fair to expect the balance team to spend thousands of hours in PvP/WvW each year, but there is no excuse for the current implementation of Arcane Thievery.