Tournament of Necros is what.....

[Crab Fear.1624]

On 7/20/2021 at 1:16 PM, ZDragon.3046 said:

 

This does not change the fact that barrier does a poor job of making up for the shrouds keep in mind shroud cd is 10s and in most cases its easy enough to kite or defend yourself with most of the same tools you called out which are available for the other classes and spectral benefits core and reaper far better than it does scourge. At the end of the day barrier on scourge is hovering around the barely acceptable when you really consider that it its still a class designed to damage soak rather than avoid damage like most other professions through the use of stealth, blocks, extra evades, and invuln to which it has none of.

 

Fear shouldnt be a factor because its necormancers general cc other classes have more options interms of stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. For necro almost all of those options are replaced with fear which in theroy should be easier to handle. Its a condition based cc meaning it has more counterplay than standard effect cc's as condition removals and break stuns will remove it.

 

Making the argument about scourge's boons is questionable here because it means that you are ok with other classes (what you are playing) having access to those boons while doing those things but saying its not ok for scourge even though scourge has to take a grand master trait then effectively hit you with multiple boon eating skills to actually gain them?

 

About the only valid statement here in all of this is rez potential which is high. I do agree with this how ever when you really consider alot of everything you have to wonder if its warranted or not. I would still rather see more skills that finish downed players put into the game or poison being more effective on downed players etc. I think the meta should have never been to cleave down a body from the start people only do that because its faster than channeling the stomp and exposing yourself while doing so. A scourge happens to make doing what you are use to doing difficult and im not sure thats a reason for a nerf on all accounts considering you've pointed at barrier, fear, and rez potential. 

 

 

True but those are not the amulets im talking about. Mara and Demo have never been a problem the defensive stats on those are enough to be a slight help but not enough to carry any one on any build. Those are prefect examples of good amulets if you ask me.

 

This is not a problem as you said in your own words "certain classes" not every class. There will be good and bad matchups based on class and builds being played scourge is certainly weak to certain classes in the game just as it is strong to classes locked in melee only setups for the match. 

If this is a problem we can look at this a few different ways

Necro/ scourge in every match = those same certain classes also in every match but no one calls that out till scourge counters them.

Necro/ scourge in every match = only boon decent boon managing class in the game to which some classes would never have a counter without.

 

Because spellbreaker was gutted, they were great for boon control.

 

Where are those pesky spellbreaker threads?

 

Some will say it is fine, and I think it is gutted.

 

Once Scourge and necro is gutted, I will think it is fine.

[Unknown.6851]

Necros are a pain but there are so many classes out there and specs out there that just shine in their respective categories. I’m hoping that when EOD releases they will do another trait and skill and rune shake up like they did a few years ago.

[Math.5123]

10 hours ago, bluri.2653 said:

who plays ele? saving steal in a fight for signet barely happens at all anymore and even harder with 600 range not to mention you dont even have to signet anymore lmao cus the resses are so good.

 

rewatch tol and tell me how many signets i manage to interrupt as well ty

Like I stated in a later post. I meant Mercy Signet. Merely a typo. 

 

And just because you didn't manage to interrupt the signets for one reason or another, it doesn't change the fact that thief is the only class that can reliably interrupt it.

[Sindrener.1592]

12 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

Like I stated in a later post. I meant Mercy Signet. Merely a typo. 

 

And just because you didn't manage to interrupt the signets for one reason or another, it doesn't change the fact that thief is the only class that can reliably interrupt it.

It also makes it irrelevant as i just said, I scrimmed vs 3 necros and I interrupted every single signet that was casted and they still hand ressed all. Look at TOL as well, didnt even matter if signet was rupted the amount of res power with utilities is more than enough to res them. We did 4v4 on henge and killed them 5 times without being able to cleave it down, so again what teamfighting presence are you talking about?

Only times signet had value is when they were severely outnumbered and guard would arrive late, but a full 4v4/5v5 teamfight thief has 0 impact and 0 relevance in a teamfight compared to any other class that u could replace it with. In fact mesmer is like 10000000 times better look at legacy worms vs blams team what did fly do other than run around with 1k hp doing absolutely nothing in the teamfight, oh ye a steal maybe on a player thats it.

Like i understand ur biased against thief and hate it but saying thief has high impact in a teamfight rn is absolutely delusional. The only time i'd agree was with tempest and glyphs cus no stab etc and u could headshot it thats about it

[De Bourgogne.9642]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:54 AM, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Yes. The weaker version of the renegade shortbow. Nerf that one.

Yeah the 'weaker'  version of renegade shortbow that doesn't have animations and together with entangle you immob someone for 10 seconds and spam 20 stacks of bleeding and poison in 3 seconds. Really weak xd

[Lazze.9870]

2 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

Yeah the 'weaker'  version of renegade shortbow that doesn't have animations and together with entangle you immob someone for 10 seconds and spam 20 stacks of bleeding and poison in 3 seconds.

 

Yes, the weaker version. Rev has better power scaling, better aoe, no flank requirements to get decent bleeds off the autos, doesn't require you to be in shotgun distance to get all hits off from Sevenshot like you need to with Poison Volley. I'd trade ranger shortbow for renegade shortbow in a heartbeat, the only thing I wouldn't mind bringing over is the evade.

 

It has animations. Learn them. See those pink things around the arrow? It means there is a concussion shot incoming. Better dodge it.

 

Entangle isn't a shortbow skill. Irrelevant.

 

Ranger shortbow is a terribly designed weapon. It's boring to play and boring to play against. It doesn't need a nerf, it needs a full rework.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Arheundel.6451]

2 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

Yeah the 'weaker'  version of renegade shortbow that doesn't have animations and together with entangle you immob someone for 10 seconds and spam 20 stacks of bleeding and poison in 3 seconds. Really weak xd

I read loads of "comments" in this forum..but to even assume that ranger shortbow is anywhere near renegade shortbow. in terms of viability/power/usage......brings the bar down to a whole new level. There is no single sane player  who would take a ranger shortbow over renegade shortbow if given the option...

[De Bourgogne.9642]

58 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Ranger shortbow is a terribly designed weapon. It's boring to play and boring to play against. It doesn't need a nerf, it needs a full rework.

That is exactly the point of the post that you quoted. But since Anet won't rework it, it should be nerfed into irrelevance. 

 

Compare concussion tiny pink arrow with insane travel speed vs a slow burning cone slowly moving to knock you down. All shortbow skills on renegade have very well designed animations. There needs to be animation before projectile is fired different from other animations (which is the case on longbow) or the projectile needs to have a very different obvious animation and not be too fast. Which is why shortbow on renegade can easily be balanced while on ranger it cannot. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by McPero.3287

[mortrialus.3062]

11 hours ago, bluri.2653 said:

It also makes it irrelevant as i just said, I scrimmed vs 3 necros and I interrupted every single signet that was casted and they still hand ressed all. Look at TOL as well, didnt even matter if signet was rupted the amount of res power with utilities is more than enough to res them. We did 4v4 on henge and killed them 5 times without being able to cleave it down, so again what teamfighting presence are you talking about?

Only times signet had value is when they were severely outnumbered and guard would arrive late, but a full 4v4/5v5 teamfight thief has 0 impact and 0 relevance in a teamfight compared to any other class that u could replace it with. In fact mesmer is like 10000000 times better look at legacy worms vs blams team what did fly do other than run around with 1k hp doing absolutely nothing in the teamfight, oh ye a steal maybe on a player thats it.

Like i understand ur biased against thief and hate it but saying thief has high impact in a teamfight rn is absolutely delusional. The only time i'd agree was with tempest and glyphs cus no stab etc and u could headshot it thats about it

This sounds like a real learn to play issue to me if I've ever heard one.  If necros were really that strong, you would be quietly playing them and not complaining.  This suggests necros are *just* strong enough to be balanced if you find it worth begging for nerfs rather than just swapping to necro. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[De Bourgogne.9642]

8 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

This sounds like a real learn to play issue to me if I've ever heard one.  If necros were really that strong, you would be quietly playing them and not complaining.  This suggests necros are *just* strong enough to be balanced if you find it worth begging for nerfs rather than just swapping to necro. 

This is amusing.  Lmao

[mortrialus.3062]

19 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

This is amusing.  Lmao

You can look up videos of him abandoning his main to play revenant, mesmer, necromancer and guardian to win when those classes are overperforming and the clear path to victory.  Now he *doesn't* bother to think about class composition, doesn't bother to change his class or build, and instead insists on sticking to a bad matchup and then blaming his counter for it.  He was simply unwilling to play a hard counter to necromancer because he thought he was above such things and he lost this month, which both Mighty Teapot and his viewers were unanimous in being the worst he's ever played in his entire time being an on screen presence and the matches he lost were "easily winnable".  Him losing isn't the end of the world despite what he would lead you to believe. 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

20 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

You can look up videos of him abandoning his main to play revenant, mesmer, necromancer and guardian to win when those classes are overperforming and the clear path to victory.  Now he *doesn't* bother to think about class composition, doesn't bother to change his class or build, and instead insists on sticking to a bad matchup and then blaming his counter for it.  He was simply unwilling to play a hard counter to necromancer because he thought he was above such things and he lost this month, which both Mighty Teapot and his viewers were unanimous in being the worst he's ever played in his entire time being an on screen presence and the matches he lost were "easily winnable".  Him losing isn't the end of the world despite what he would lead you to believe. 

What exactly is the hard counter to scourge? Yeah he doesn't play other classes because he doesn't want to. But that has nothing to do with necromancer being overpowered while also being easiest spec to play (MM and Scourge). Your logic that if necro was OP he would play but because it isn't he is just asking for nerfs doesn't make any sense. Countering with mirror is not a counter. 

[mortrialus.3062]

12 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

What exactly is the hard counter to scourge? Yeah he doesn't play other classes because he doesn't want to. But that has nothing to do with necromancer being overpowered while also being easiest spec to play (MM and Scourge). Your logic that if necro was OP he would play but because it isn't he is just asking for nerfs doesn't make any sense. Countering with mirror is not a counter. 

He's always countered before and has been perfectly happy to reroll before.  That he isn't now is on him. Not necro, all specs of which are perfectly balanced.

[Lazze.9870]

2 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

But since Anet won't rework it, it should be nerfed into irrelevance. 

 

Yes. And pretty much leave ranger with LB, GS and axe/dagger as the only weapon options that aren't off-meta in pvp and pretty much kill off its viability as a condition user. Good idea. Brilliant. They already nerfed it into irrelevance once, it didn't prompt a rework back then. It won't now.

 

I'd still take renegade shortbow over ranger shortbow, visual cues or not. So my point still stands, it's the weaker weapon.

 

2 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

Compare concussion tiny pink arrow with insane travel speed vs a slow burning cone slowly moving to knock you down.

 

 

The only pink arrow you will ever see it fire and it also makes a different sound before it actually fires. Those are the kind of things you learn to dodge after having played the class sufficiently yourself. I don't struggle with dodging CS.

 

I mean, sure, slap the knockback animation from longbow on it. I don't care. I hate playing it. I want a rework to something that is actually fun to play.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[De Bourgogne.9642]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Yes. And pretty much leave ranger with LB, GS and axe/dagger as the only weapon options that aren't off-meta in pvp and pretty much kill off its viability as a condition user. Good idea. Brilliant. They already nerfed it into irrelevance once, it didn't prompt a rework back then. It won't now.

 

I'd still take renegade shortbow over ranger shortbow, visual cues or not. So my point still stands, it's the weaker weapon.

 

 

 

The only pink arrow you will ever see it fire and it also makes a different sound before it actually fires. Those are the kind of things you learn to dodge after having played the class sufficiently yourself. I don't struggle with dodging CS.

 

I mean, sure, slap the knockback animation from longbow on it. I don't care. I hate playing it. I want a rework to something that is actually fun to play.

Variety is not an excuse for keeping something poorly designed viable.  

[De Bourgogne.9642]

2 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

He's always countered before and has been perfectly happy to reroll before.  That he isn't now is on him. Not necro, all specs of which are perfectly balanced.

How is necro being balanced or not relevant to thief being strong in teamfights or not? 

 

He didn't even say anything about necro being OP on this thread so it seems like you are just hating like a little baby? 

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, McPero.3287 said:

Variety is not an excuse for keeping something poorly designed viable.  

 

Being annoying is not an excuse to nerf an entire weapon into irrelevance. It's not broken.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Crab Fear.1624]

2 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

How is necro being balanced or not relevant to thief being strong in teamfights or not? 

 

He didn't even say anything about necro being OP on this thread so it seems like you are just hating like a little baby? 

Yes Morty hates thieves.

 

Their main was at least once, Mesmer(all forms)

[ZDragon.3046]

5 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

What exactly is the hard counter to scourge? Yeah he doesn't play other classes because he doesn't want to. But that has nothing to do with necromancer being overpowered while also being easiest spec to play (MM and Scourge). Your logic that if necro was OP he would play but because it isn't he is just asking for nerfs doesn't make any sense. Countering with mirror is not a counter. 

Anything ranged

But Cpc ruins all ranged options IT NEEDS NERF

Ok no...

Mesmers ranged options are only about 50% projectiles and the phantasms also count as ranged options so do the shatters.

Guardians ground targed symbols are ranged options 

other necros ground targetd options and its axe and scepter are ranged options that counter it well.

Thief will always be a good counter to any necro build no matter what provided you know how to play decently

 

If you dont want to play ranged then cc is your next best option

For that thief again

Warrior

Mesmer again

Rev kinda

Ranger still (might have to play around cpc tho but its still strong against necro)

 

Even with this short list scourge generally has plenty of counterplay It cant be helped that the majority of people are playing things like ranger and holo nade/mortor spam or ranged thief  against it. IT should have been expected that they would cpc to counter it

7 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I read loads of "comments" in this forum..but to even assume that ranger shortbow is anywhere near renegade shortbow. in terms of viability/power/usage......brings the bar down to a whole new level. There is no single sane player  who would take a ranger shortbow over renegade shortbow if given the option...

Sir what?

Ranger shortbow might be basic but the the key difference is that it heavily punishes your target for not staring directly at you and is made for taking down single targets  and rev shorbow just does its basic damage but has massive tells for every single skill it has, its also geared a bit more for team fights with its aoe cc and damage skills. The weapons are made for 2 different task so to assume every player would take one over the other is probably a mistake.

 

Its nearly impossible to react to ranger shortbow 4/ 5 and the chances of it immobing or stunning your target is high unelss they have their character perfectly locked on you perfectly. (the front facing cone is very small  and most of the time you get the stun for free)

Rev shortbow 5 is easily react too and almost every other skill on it is also easily read by the big flashy animation tells. Rev shortbow is better now that they fixed sevenshot but im not sure i can call it better than ranger shortbow for the fact that the two weapons are built so differently

 

Ranger shortbow is considerably more unfair due to its lack of start up tells on key skills and the hit detection of what is flanking and what is not being so poor.  Where you think no player would use a ranger shortbow confuses me both certainly have their ups and downs.

[Sindrener.1592]

7 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

You can look up videos of him abandoning his main to play revenant, mesmer, necromancer and guardian to win when those classes are overperforming and the clear path to victory.  Now he *doesn't* bother to think about class composition, doesn't bother to change his class or build, and instead insists on sticking to a bad matchup and then blaming his counter for it.  He was simply unwilling to play a hard counter to necromancer because he thought he was above such things and he lost this month, which both Mighty Teapot and his viewers were unanimous in being the worst he's ever played in his entire time being an on screen presence and the matches he lost were "easily winnable".  Him losing isn't the end of the world despite what he would lead you to believe. 

Are you talking to me 😅if so i think you need to lay down that crackpipe

[De Bourgogne.9642]

3 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Being annoying is not an excuse to nerf an entire weapon into irrelevance. It's not broken.

Well it actually is considering main point of a videogame is to have fun and not to be annoyed. So why would you not try to remove annoying things even if not broken? 

[Lighter.5631]

problem tho is the class system

core class already has 5 trait line with 3 mini trait line within each of them. basically you equip 3 big lines so you have 9 lines to mix and match

if you play other MMO or even competitive pvp games.

max maybe 3 lines to choose from thats it.

 

but on top you have a tons of utility to mix match and a tons of weapon set to match with minimum restriction.

 

result is a big hot mess that nobody enjoys playing and impossible to balance with a tons of useless weapons and skills and traits.

(not mentioning the fact that each elite spec pretty much equal a new class in other games with the amount of traits and utility, who releases 9 classes in 1 exp anyway)

 

not mentioning amulets which can make classes with already a huge pool of possible builds to play any role, which multiply the possibilities even more.

i don't understand people who complain about removing stuff, when this game outmatch second place by a trillion light year in terms of possible build diversity.

 

[Vancho.8750]

23 hours ago, bluri.2653 said:

It also makes it irrelevant as i just said, I scrimmed vs 3 necros and I interrupted every single signet that was casted and they still hand ressed all. Look at TOL as well, didnt even matter if signet was rupted the amount of res power with utilities is more than enough to res them. We did 4v4 on henge and killed them 5 times without being able to cleave it down, so again what teamfighting presence are you talking about?

Only times signet had value is when they were severely outnumbered and guard would arrive late, but a full 4v4/5v5 teamfight thief has 0 impact and 0 relevance in a teamfight compared to any other class that u could replace it with. In fact mesmer is like 10000000 times better look at legacy worms vs blams team what did fly do other than run around with 1k hp doing absolutely nothing in the teamfight, oh ye a steal maybe on a player thats it.

Like i understand ur biased against thief and hate it but saying thief has high impact in a teamfight rn is absolutely delusional. The only time i'd agree was with tempest and glyphs cus no stab etc and u could headshot it thats about it

To your last point, thief just suffers from success as in there is nothing coming close to do what thief does or its able to win, as in kill to shut it down. So people decided that it is easier to not play the thief game and comp counter it by tanking up, the surprise attacks matter kitten all if the ini of the thief runs out and you can heal up, it is just way way simpler to lock out a thief from rotation than chasing it. There is also that most higher damage output builds get farmed by thief so that is a no go, even DE that is the more Teamfight speck get shafted by the other thief builds.

There might be some cheesy hidden build for thief out there that can contest the meta, maybe preps or yoinking people with scorpion wire, maybe shredding domes with basi venom, maybe staff is good or pistol pistol, since trap DH and minionmancer are legit ways to play these days, why not pull out the memes. The thing is that I just can't can't bring myself to go through the theory crafting process and get farmed by the 'META'battle thieves till I find and prove some concept.  

Thief is in a stalemate since all builds from core to the elites just do the same thing and in metas like the current one it just can't do its one thing, that is on Anet for not giving it another backup niche , kind of hope EoD brings another playestyle that can do another role instead of another surprise assassin that steals your caps.   

[Sindrener.1592]

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

To your last point, thief just suffers from success as in there is nothing coming close to do what thief does or its able to win, as in kill to shut it down. So people decided that it is easier to not play the thief game and comp counter it by tanking up, the surprise attacks matter kitten all if the ini of the thief runs out and you can heal up, it is just way way simpler to lock out a thief from rotation than chasing it. There is also that most higher damage output builds get farmed by thief so that is a no go, even DE that is the more Teamfight speck get shafted by the other thief builds.

There might be some cheesy hidden build for thief out there that can contest the meta, maybe preps or yoinking people with scorpion wire, maybe shredding domes with basi venom, maybe staff is good or pistol pistol, since trap DH and minionmancer are legit ways to play these days, why not pull out the memes. The thing is that I just can't can't bring myself to go through the theory crafting process and get farmed by the 'META'battle thieves till I find and prove some concept.  

Thief is in a stalemate since all builds from core to the elites just do the same thing and in metas like the current one it just can't do its one thing, that is on Anet for not giving it another backup niche , kind of hope EoD brings another playestyle that can do another role instead of another surprise assassin that steals your caps.   

Yes ill wait for you to find the new hidden p/p meta build. 🐒 

[Vancho.8750]

6 hours ago, bluri.2653 said:

Yes ill wait for you to find the new hidden p/p meta build. 🐒 

Memes are the future. Seems that even if it something is hot garbage, it will be good enough if one aspect is dialed to 11. Dare to dream man. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Vancho.8750