When can we get a playable Tengu Race? [Merged]

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

I suppose I can use this argument to help further strengthen this, as it is clear now some people don't know what a mesh is. You know how Humans, Norns, and Sylvari all have very similar looking armor, and all of them have very similar looking animations? Ever wonder why? This is because those three races share the same mesh, Tengu and Charr also share the same mesh. Meaning, not only does most of the armor fit, but they can share many animations. There would likely be some flair differences here and there like all the other races. But anyways, thanks for helping me make this argument easier. Should I remind you that making all the new mount skins, many which are a full model change would take more effort?

Maybe ... but again, the question here isn't the work, it's the value the development has to Anet and players. I mean you are going to remind me that making new mount skins takes more effort ... yet Anet DOES do that and DOESN'T release a new race ... that's because the value new mount skins brings to the game is significant to Anet and players. 

 

Again, you don't seem to understand this concept; as the value of the development decreases, the work becomes less relevant as a point of discussion. At the 'zero-value' point, no justification can be made to develop something. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Maybe ... but again, the question here isn't the work, it's the value the development has to Anet and players. I mean you are going to remind me that making new mount skins takes more effort ... yet Anet DOES do that and DOESN'T release a new race ... that's because the value new mount skins brings to the game is HIGHER than a new race likely has. 

Your arguments are really weak now. The previous one wasn't even an argument, but a half assed 'I have no counter argument, but I don't want to admit it'. They get to them when they get to them. You can use this type of argument for any silly reasoning. They also implemented instruments before mounts, gliding, and fishing, does that mean they felt like they were a waste of time as well? I know you are in the camp of "I just really don't want people to play as Tengu." And will find literally any excuse you can find to try to stop it regardless of whether or not it makes sense. Well, too bad, I am sick of it. Throw any excuse you have at me, go ahead.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Your arguments are really weak now. 

No they aren't, because this is EXACTLY how good business works ... at a minimum, the value to the customer and the provider needs to justify the development costs of what's being considered.

 

Instead of saying "really weak", you should just be admitting you have no clue how businesses justify things they develop and release as products/services to patrons.  

 

If new race = Tengu was a higher value proposition relative to other things we have gotten or will get, we would get Tengu as a playable race. That's determined by its value to players, Anet and the cost to develop Tengus as a playable race. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

No they aren't, because this is EXACTLY how good business works ... the value to the customer and the provider needs to justify the develop costs. 

Let me tell you a story, when new races were being added to FF14, I have heard it across many chats from various games, ESO, DnD, Runescape 3, WoW, Skyrim, various SSBU chats, some not even MMORPGs, most rather excited about it and actually expressed interest in playing the game when they come out. Similar things happened in WoW. Want to hear what I heard about fishing when it was announced for GW2 from other MMORPGs? Nothing. Want to know what happened when I told them that fishing was going to be implemented? "So what? We have fishing here too, and I never even do it, it's boring AF." They didn't add fishing because they wanted hype, they added it because they wanted to. But an actual race will actually generate hype, it always has, always will, like it or not.

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Let me tell you a story, when new races were being added to FF14, I have heard it across many chats from various games, ESO, DnD, Runescape 3, WoW, Skyrim, various SSBU chats, some not even MMORPGs, most rather excited about it and actually expressed interest in playing the game when they come out. Similar things happened in WoW. Want to hear what I heard about fishing when it was announced for GW2 from other MMORPGs? Nothing. Want to know what happened when I told them that fishing was going to be implemented? "So what? We have fishing here too, and I never even do it, it's boring AF." They didn't add fishing because they wanted hype, they added it because they wanted to. But an actual race will actually generate hype, it always has, always will, like it or not.

OK that's a nice story I guess, but it doesn't change what I'm telling you. 

 

I mean, if Anet is implementing fishing, it's because somehow they see that development has enough value to themselves and players to offset the cost of developing that feature. 

 

I'm not going to argue about how a new race 'generates hype' ... it's irrelevant. The question is if that new race development and 'hype' valuable enough to players and Anet to offset the cost of developing Tengu as a new playable race? In GW2 ... I doubt it, simply because there isn't much 'race-based' content, primarily through a new story and a small number of elite skills. Since a new story isn't exclusive to a new race and the opportunity to put people to work on higher value developments, I doubt you will see it happen. 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Linken.6345]

4 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Let me tell you a story, when new races were being added to FF14, I have heard it across many chats from various games, ESO, DnD, Runescape 3, WoW, Skyrim, various SSBU chats, some not even MMORPGs, most rather excited about it and actually expressed interest in playing the game when they come out. Similar things happened in WoW. Want to hear what I heard about fishing when it was announced for GW2 from other MMORPGs? Nothing. Want to know what happened when I told them that fishing was going to be implemented? "So what? We have fishing here too, and I never even do it, it's boring AF." They didn't add fishing because they wanted hype, they added it because they wanted to. But an actual race will actually generate hype, it always has, always will, like it or not.

What new race were added to ff14 havent heard of it at all.

[Esorono.1039]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK that's a nice story I guess, but it doesn't change what I'm telling you. 

 

I mean, if Anet is implementing fishing, it's because somehow they see that development has enough value to themselves and players to offset the cost of developing that feature. 

 

I'm not going to argue about how a new race 'generates hype' ... it's irrelevant. The question is if that new race development and 'hype' valuable enough to players and Anet to offset the cost of developing Tengu as a new playable race? In GW2 ... I doubt it, simply because there isn't much 'race-based' content, primarily through a new story and a small number of elite skills. Since a new story isn't exclusive to a new race and the opportunity to put people to work on higher value developments, I doubt you will see it happen. 

 

 

I'm honestly disappointed, you could have made a better argument than that, and was expecting it. There isn't even really an argument here. Ah well, easier for me in my sleepy stupor before morning coffee I suppose. No, fishing was just something they wanted to implement since the start of the game, but only now just got the chance to. They off-set this lack of hype with the siege turtles and trying to lean heavily towards Cantha nostalgia, do you really believe they thought people would be excited over fishing? XD NO! 

 

They also do consider what is popular as well. You know what else was 'utterly useless', and the devs said they would never do because it would take too much effort to do so? Sitting in chairs. Why? Because a group of roleplayers wanted the ability to sit in chairs. Did you know before PoF GW2 prided itself in not having mounts, proudly stating they would never release mounts? Well, look what popular demand gave us. And here we are, on the monthly 'let's add tengu' thread together.

 

Also notice something odd about Tengu? DoW is one of the only core Tyria unexplored, unlike all the other sentient/sapient races, there are no Tengu tonics, and they have expressed interest all the way up to PoF. They are purposefully keeping the option open.

[Esorono.1039]

6 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

What new race were added to ff14 havent heard of it at all.

Hrothgar, Au Ra, and Viera.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Esorono.1039 said:

I'm honestly disappointed, you could have made a better argument than that, and was expecting it. 

No better argument needs to be made. If the ROI isn't made by the business case, it makes sense they don't do it. That's the best argument there is. Again, the stuff you see that is 'useless' to you obviously meets their criteria to develop. If the 'useless' stuff didn't deliver benefit to them or players, Anet would stop making those things.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

No better argument needs to be made. If the ROI isn't there, it makes sense they don't do it. 

You're not even trying at this point, I guess you dried up. Don't bother pinging me again unless you have a valid argument. 

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

... you have a valid argument. 

Not having a business case to develop something is more than a valid argument to not develop it. It's probably the BEST argument. If you don't like the pings, go ahead and turn them off. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Not having a business case to develop something is more than a valid argument to not develop it. 

You mean other than making a lot of money? Sure, whatever. I'm sure spending all that time to make fishing and sitting in chairs was a strong business case. OH WAIT! No one cares! 😄 Now do you have an actual argument, or are you just pinging me for the sake of pinging me?

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

You mean other than making a lot of money? Sure, whatever. I'm sure spending all that time to make fishing and sitting in chairs was a strong business case. 

Hold on ... don't assume the things you want do make money and the things you don't want wont. That's about as contrived as it gets.

 

Again, if chairs wasn't making Anet money, they would stop making them. Either way, it shows my point. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... don't assume the things you want do make money and the things you don't want wont. Again, if chairs wasn't making Anet money, they would stop making them. 

Isn't that what you are arguing against? Clearly there is a demand, we get this thread at least once a month. How many do you see of  requests chairs or fishing? Zero? Because that is all I see. 

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Esorono.1039 said:

Isn't that what you are arguing against? Clearly there is a demand, we get this thread at least once a month. How many do you see of  requests chairs or fishing? Zero? Because that is all I see. 

Again, it's NOT about demand. It's about the value it brings players and Anet for the cost of the development. Clearly, you don't understand what a business case even is. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, it's NOT about demand. It's about the value it brings players and Anet for the cost of the development. Clearly, you don't understand what a business case even is. 

Really, you're not even trying anymore and I am getting sick of it. Do you have anything worthwhile to add? And I am not countering the same easily dismissed argument for the 10'th time. Add information, evidence, really ANYTHING other than 'what amounts to 'I don't like the idea so no one else will either'.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

And I am not countering the same argument for the 10'th time. 

That's good, because clearly you don't have the background to dismiss good business practices to begin with. I get you want to argue new race is a great idea on your own terms, just so you win. That's not how Anet is going to decide if adding a new race to the game makes sense to them or us. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That's good, because clearly you don't have the background to dismiss good business practice anyways. 

Do you?

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Do you?

Clearly more than you do, that's for sure. Again, this isn't about demand. Just because some players want it, doesn't mean it's a good idea to implement from a business perspective. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Clearly more than you do, that's for sure. Again, this isn't about demand. Just because some players want it, doesn't mean it's a good idea to implement from a business perspective. 

So what you are saying is 'no'. Thank you, that is all I needed to know. So now your arguments are even less credible.

[Obtena.7952]

The problem here is that some people just don't want to admit there are factors at play here they don't understand or are willing to acknowledge. That's OK. I will sleep fine knowing Anet isn't going to implement a no value, high cost feature like a new race just to appease nonsensical ideas that we need a 6th frame to put skins on. I'm satisfied with that conclusion. They can believe whatever they like and make all the obtuse comments they want; those things aren't compelling reasons to add a new race. Time for some people to get over themselves. 

 

The day Anet starts delivering no-value content to the game at ANY cost is the day they don't care about running GW2 as a business. If anyone thinks that will ever happen, they haven't got any idea how things work. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think the problem here is that some people just don't want to admit there are factors at play here they don't understand or are willing to acknowledge. That's OK. I will sleep fine knowing Anet isn't going to implement a no value, high cost feature like a new race just to appease nonsensical ideas that we need a 6th frame to put skins on. I'm satisfied with that conclusion. They can believe whatever they like and make all the obtuse comments they want. 

 

The day Anet starts delivering no-value content to the game at ANY cost is the day they don't care about running GW2 as a business. If anyone thinks that will ever happen, they haven't got any idea how things work. 

And you have bad memory! Not even going to bother arguing it with a new post. Page 10, post 2. And sure, it worked so poorly for FF14, that is why the game is doing so badly. XD

[Obtena.7952]

The memory here is fine. What works for one game does not indicate it will work for another; that's just bad assumptions (or poor acting, take your pick). Again, different business models, different game. Not even a relevant comparison ... just another example of people not understanding what they are talking about, not taking into account how different businesses work. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The memory here is fine. What works for one game does not indicate it will work for another; that's just bad assumptions (or poor acting, take your pick). Again, different business models, different game. Not even a relevant comparison ... just another example of people not understanding what they are talking about, not taking into account how different businesses work. 

Cute, says the person who admitted they have no idea how a business works. But yes, I suppose that is why GW2 doesn't have any mounts, they did say they would never have mounts, made all sorts of rebuttals on threads very similar to yours. GW2 prides itself on not having any mounts, they wouldn't cave into demands, nope! 

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Cute, says the person who admitted they have no idea how a business works. But yes, I suppose that is why GW2 doesn't have any mounts, they did say they would never have mounts, made all sorts of rebuttals on threads very similar to yours. GW2 prides itself on not having any mounts, they wouldn't cave into demands, nope! 

The devs NEVER said there would never be mounts. The most they ever said was there would be no mounts a launch.

The devs DID say (and I'm paraphrasing here) that the amount of effort, time and money would be a very large investment for an update that wouldn't really change the game very much.

The user base said we'd never have mounts. The devs never did. Not the same situation.