Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

 

On 8/11/2021 at 5:37 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

It was given a fighting chance. If the 6 years of raiding existing in this game did not make them popular however, it's completely on them.

no... before 6 years ppl in this game asked anet to nerf most content to make it easy...

Now they improved themselves and are willing t oimprove themselves atleast step by step and new player influx is increasing... what's your motive here? only difference between easily aquired wvw legy armo and raid armor is stow and draw animation effect in the raid armor... why not leave it as it is to let it have its own chance to attract new players 

 

On 8/11/2021 at 5:37 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Besides, again, you want to bribe players in hope that maybe they will miraculously realize they do like that content, instead of trying to aim at the content itself to be appealing to them.

You try to present all those things that even you realize prevent most players form liking raids as if they were completely separate from the content, when in fact they are either part of raids' core design, or a direct consequence of that design. Additionally, you want to bribe players into either ignoring those things, or suppressing their dislike of them, all in vain hope that they will miraculously realize they do like that content, instead of trying to aim at the content itself to be appealing to them. Asmost as if you already knew that the content as it is will never be appealing to them.

 

And? We already do know that the number of those people is low enough to threaten raid survival, and the main reason why that content got abandoned by devs. Seriously, at this point even WvW seems to be in better situation than raids are. And WvW never needed shinies on the level of the Envoy set to be that way - in fact, it managed to stay somewhat afloat despite being generally unrewarding.

 

Not everyone, no. But the amount of players that do like it is very small.

And again, the people that get pulled in by existence of Envoy set for the most part do not care for Raids either - compared to those that entered the raids and got their sets, the numbers of those that keep doing it after that poit is very low.

if u plan on improving the content why try to kill it? try your best to include new content that might attract the kind of players into raids that you feel like... why kill the opportunity for like minded ppl for the existing raid system? you do realize you are posting these comments on a thread where the focus is directed towards the single tiny aspect that raid legy has animation effect.. tahts the only thing thats different.. all other convenience of legendary armor are available in 2 other game modes as well where theres no stress involved.. all it takes is daily contribution in those game modes towards the legendary armor goal.

 

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Let's look at gw2efficiency statistics (and at both extremes - overall stats, and stats for most dedicated players range, so 4000+ hours)

 

The amount of players that got at least one raid kill is not bad for the all players category (35%) and absolutely massive for 4000+h veterans - 70%

10 kills (which should be enough to get the feet wet and give basic feeling about the content): 22.5% and 55% respectively

50 kills (enough to be absolutely sure whether you like the content or not): 16% and 44% respectively

150 kills (first armor set) - 11% and 35.5% respectively

450 kills (second armor set) - 6% and 23%

750 kills (third armor set) - ~`4% and 16.5%

900 kills (three armor sets and a ring) - ~3% and 14%

1000 kills (you still keep raiding for a while after all legendary goals have been achieved) - 2.5% and 12%

1500 kills (far enough from legendary level that you don't get there unless you actually do truly like doing it) - 1.5% and 7%

 

So, from the one kill range to 10 kills, you already managed to lose one/third of all players, and a quarter of veterans. By the time you hit 50 kills, those losses rise up to half and a third respectively.

Of those that got so far, only two/thirds of all players, and 80% of veterans manage to get to the first armor set (so, basically, one third of all players, and one fifth of veterans gave up after already being past those hurdles you brought up as the issue stopping players from getting in, without even trying for the first set)

Between first and third armor set you lose two thirds of all players, and half of veterans

And between those that got to obtain all the raid legendaries, about only half stays to raid further beyond this point (from the 50 kill point, so, past the initial hurdles, to there, it is alrady a loss of five sixth of all players and five seventh of veterans)

 

Basically, we can make two observations here. First, that raiding survives on the back of veterans, not new players. Second, that huge majority of raid population seems to be there for legendaries only and do not stay after they've obtained them. And even of those most do not manage to stay for the whole road.

 

So, yes, your suspicions that it's the legendary reward that keeps raids barely alive seems to have merit. But that also shows that only a small number of players actually ever liked that content. Most players were bought to artificially inflate the numbers and make raids seem more popular than they'd be otherwise.

with all these things  you try to imply that ppl who raid are not staying there .. idk where and how u derived these percentage numbers... but lemme give a few simple more straightforward numbers..

ppl who engage in raids are mostly who are determined to achieve the goal and ther ecould be a few deviations but mostly determined players step into that content... tahts why the percentage could be low but in reality actual number of ppl who do raids just for doing raids could be way more .. some ppl might not even care about the armor or consider it an extra cost of gold and stick to their ascended gears...

 

stats:

Armor skin unlocked by player base   |   percentage of playerbase(a single weight class would always have equal more close pecentage to the weight)

legendary armor:

Experimental envoy heavy    8%
Experimental envoy light    7%
Experimental envoy medium    5%

 

Perfected Envoy Heavy    5%
Perfected Envoy light    4%
Perfected Envoy medium    2-3%

 

determined ppl started raiding and unlocked experimental armor and ppl who had resources and are attracted to raid mode for the armor complted crafting those experimental armors.. and 2% of ppl include the ppl who deviated due to cost reasons and ppl who are not interested in armors and the ppl who despise it an left(see where the % of ppl like you really are falling in? less than 2% maybe 0.1% who knows)
thus the ppl who are interested in game mode in other words, tried the gamemode unlocked upto the experimental sets, are focussed on completing the set and getting the perfected armor so they aren't despised by the gamemode

deviation between experimental and perfected sets could be because they dont have the resources, mats to complete the set and left it since they can enjoy the game mode with asc sets and thats enough for the deviated % of playerbase and some wouldve left the gamemode or the game itself and for n number of reasons.. deviatons lie within 2-3% ...

 

now lets look at ppl who are determined to craft legendaries in open world pve

 

legendary weapons:

kudzu    (precursor: 6% legendary: 4%) 2% deviation
Exordium (legendary:2%)
sunrise (precursor:15% legendary: 13%)
twilight (precursor: 17% legendary: 16%)
eternity (legendary: 6%)
Ad infinitum (precursor:16% legendary: 10%) 6% deviation

 

look at the percentage of dedicated ppl in open world pve who are willing t ocraft or aquire legendary weapons... and u want the raid armor to be made avaialble to open world pve even if there are already 2 more legy armors easily aquirable out there... i couldnt understand your judgement and decision making at all...

legendary pve trinkets:
note: check the playerbase percentage who unlocked mistshard armor and check the lowest percentage among all of the mist shard armor skin which is a mandate achievement unlock to unlock amd craft vision
vision (less than 5%)

note: check all the relic of the gods backpack skins unlocked by player base
aurora(less than 9%)

 

your so called open world pve enthusiasts are not focussed or dedicated to craft legendary items.. they are so casual such that they are waiting to get some legendary item for free if thats possible...

 

so called majority of the ppl 92% majority of players... but only less than 5% even bothered to craft vision what a joke!

 

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Everything points out to it already being abandoned two years ago - because the content was so unappealing that even the Envoy set, which does seem to massively inflate that content's popularity, was not enough to keep people in there.

So, basically, we're again to the point i made several posts ago - you seem to have a problem with the content itself. Solve that, and the content will live. If you don't solve it however, no amount of buying fake population will save it anyway.

Idk about whetehr its abandoned yearsago or not or whatever ure saying is true.. we dont have the clear numbers.. only anet knows that... we can only speculate and draw rough conclusions with meagre data from gw2 efficiency and otehr source if possible.. but... ppl are returning to try out the content and new raiders are even happy about the game mode coz i know firsthand about them in my guild and also in map chat and while talking to other ppl in raids... and yet you try your best to paint it black when ppl see a rainbow.

If you feel teh content has problems and i dont feel the content has any major problems.. who is the one at fault here? problem lies in the eyes of the beholder perhaps? eitehr u have to fix yourself or.. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Leave something alone" if u still find areas of improvement, pls work on that aspect and raise your voice to improve it and dont try to kill it...

 

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See the numbers above. The problem is not with the players that never get to that point. The problem this mode has is with players that give up after it.

It's not the bad press or initial hurdles that stop the mode from being popular. It's that the content that's after you pass those is unfun to most.

can u please explain how you end up with those numbers u projected? take into acccount all factors, some ppl might not craft their armors even after unlocking them coz some are only interested i nraid mode and they have no other source of gold income.. some find it too costly after the first set... and majority of players are not dedicated to craft any legendary items even in pve...

 

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https://killproof.me/proof/dEYY

I do not have two of the three sets unlocked, because i found the medium armor skin to be ugly, and i never actually bothered to get enough provisioner tokens to get them beforehand (i am currently in process of obtaining them, btw). I would have made the sets long ago, but i actually stopped playing for over a year after i got to 750 tokens (as a direct result of raiding - i did mention that in one of my earlier posts), and after i returned to playing i decided there's no hurry (besides, i stopped all my legendary production after i heard the first mentions of legendary armory, as i wanted to know first how it's going to work)

So, yeah, i technically do not have all 3 sets yet. I only have one at the moment - but i still have farmed all the required raid tokens for all three.

ok.. so what ure saying is... u despise the content after doing it.. and then continued to do the content even after you aquired your first set of legendary armor and then you still continued to do it and accumulated 750 li even though you dislike the medium armor and in no way motivated to craft the remaining 2 sets of leg yarmors..... which is 750 boss kills in raids... and still stand by what you are posting in this thread ... at this point, I feel like its a total waste of my time replying and checking out gw2 efficiency stats and stuff to post in this thread...

 

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No, i don;t think they did so intentionally. I think they just hoped raids would be more popular, but miscalculated on one or many things (like not understanding their own playerbase, or not understanding how their own game system would impact the skill gap that exists between players)

Btw, one of later interviews with one of the raid devs gives us some clues to the possible source of the problem. It seems that part of the design considerations at least were being done by people that were very passionate about raids... because they were formerly raid players themselves in other games. And they were making some assumptions and design decisions based on those emotions, not thinking that they might not be universal among the playerbase.

 

The MMORPGs you bring up are raid-focused, with whole game working in support of that content. You can't simply try to implant raid ideas from them into this game and think they will work - not unless you'd be willing to completely redo all the game design so it, similarily, would support raids.

Notice also, how all those succesful MMORPGs also happen to be gear progression-based and include multiple tiers of difficulty (without assuming that many players will ever go for those top tiers, btw).

And that even in those raid-focused games, it's still mostly the casuals that ultimately decide about their successes or falls.

 

Im positive in most if not all mmo the number of dedicated players who wish to achieve goals and dedicate themselves will always fall in minority...  the % im referrring t oher is the percentage of players who wish to engage themselves in most or all gamemodes and get the most out of a game as a whole...

and u'll always try to refer to that small number and paint it as dead, black, crumbled road whatever.. but in reality that % will always exist.. 

 

 

 

Please read this:

U always divert from the point I'm trying to express in this thread... don't ignore this! dont drag the thread's focus to 90degree angle

 

thread is about a cool skin that is locked behind raid content... the convenience of legendary armor is alread yavaialble by 3 means possible thru 3 game modes and u cant ask anything more than this... the only difference between the raid armor and otehr armors is the cool skin... that one tiny aspect is the only difference this game mode has when compared to all others.. what is your Main motive to argue in this thread to make the raid armor avaialble by some other means? the open world pve players are less than 5% dedicated in crafting legendary items.. i may be wrong there.. maybe open world pve playerbase is les sthan 1% in crafting legendary items.. maybe the 5% I listed above could be raiders who crafted that legy item who knows..

 

by introducing anotehr means to aquire raid armor for open world pve is not gonna make the players in pve to get dedicated at all coz they alread yhad an easy legy armor via wvw and only less % of player base craft legy items out of 92% playerbase

 

but.. by introducing anotehr means of aquiring raid armor will reduce and eventually kill the player base in raid mode...

 

 

why do you try to kill a game mode if your actions are not even gonna make a dent in the other game mode by killing raids? so pointless...

 

also if you intend to improve the raid mode, please do it someother way...

 

hope you read the last section in bold

 

I certainly feel any further replies in this thread is pointless coz ppl drag it 90degree outward derail and confuse the entire focus.. I'm not gonna reply her eanymore.. ciao... have fun🥴

 

Edit(after looking at some extra stats in gw2 efficiency)(this is not a reply):

filtering the veterans ie 4000+ hrs of gameplay ie atleast 2- 2.5 years loyal dedicated players

 

20% of the veteran playerbase has done 583 raid boss kills ie.. they didnt stop and run away from the content.

and the numbers only continued to grow... it is clearly visible how dedicated veterans increased from 1% of veterans who has 3000+ li raid tokens to 20% of veterans who own 500+ li raid tokens...

and the same 20% of playerbase who played more than 4000+ hrs have unlocked 9 legendary armor pieces meaning they got atleast a single complete set of raid armor and even though they didnt finish their raid armors all 3 set, they didnt abandon the content and they still do the content and they have enough raid tokens to craft anotehr set with 583 li raid tokens

and 10% of dedicated players completed all 3 sets ( all weights)of raid armors and collected 1200 li raid tokens... meaning 10% of veterans 4000+ hrs playerbase is interested in the raid content.. 20% of veteran player base is the growing playerbase

 

some ppl are paining some weird ridiculous ideas in this thread that dedicated veterans dislike raids which is absolutely false... 

reality:

dedicated veterans will always be in low quantity in any game... and gw2 has 20% dedicated raid veterans and this 20% is what would stay here and maintain the influx of new raiders... ppl who disagree is not looking at the reality clearly

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871
included new stats from gw2efficiency

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Touchme.1097 said:

Considering how raiding is evolving into the toxicity of Elitism I would be happy if Anet would stop introducing new Raids and introduce a new set of legendary armor earned playing Strikes Missions and PvE Meta.

I am making a significant change of mind here because I see too many people being alienated from raids due to unreasonable kill proofs, the lack of people available to run raid training and the increasing number of people giving up on Raids.

I really hate it when people get alienated from playing an MMO, especially when players who raid regularly are too lazy to run training sessions to introduce new players to Raids and the unreasonable requirements asked by Guilds and Pug groups.

Enough is enough. Elitism and alienation are not healthy things and shouldn't belong here.

I'm not sure why you think it is "evolving into elitism" and I'm rather certain Strike CMs are the interim replacement to raids if not replacing them outright. KP only exists if you PUG : if you raid with people you know they won't ask for KP because they know whether you've done it. KP is also a poor system because it doesn't show someone has experience with a particular role (HK in Deimos for example). When my PvX (all mode) guild needs players we don't even ask for KP and it's plainly obvious when someone doesn't know what they're doing which is just a waste of time for all involved.

A new legendary set would probably not apply to the existing strike missions as those have Runic Armor , Bear Shaman armor, and runic cape already. If there's a new set I think it would be from EOD strikes/openworld bosses (because the mechanics as opposed to HP scale with players).

The major improvement I see coming from EOD strikes would be instancing and the default difficulty is "training" and the CM version would be the harder version. What I mean by instancing : raiding right now is weekly and the instances are blocked off unless you did them. That's why you have some people looking for specific instances for collections (see repeating Cairn to do greens) or if they want to skip an instance (most commonly Sloth or Escort if you don't have a tower chrono).

 

People make W1-4 LFGs with very little requirements all the time and if you know the fight you can tag up yourself and just look for the roles (except maybe for Deimos because HK seems to be a fail off LFG if people are low KP) or get 9 other people from your guild(s). Seeing how this is about armor, W5-7 are irrelevant unless you want to reduce timegates (but not necessarily overall time).

 

• VG - people essentially don't ask for KP for this that much because in the pre-event it is obvious if you don't know it (see "instance unlock groups" on Mondays)
• Spirit Wood - people never ask for KP
• Gors - unless your druid (or whoever is immobing spirits) is terrible it isn't highly demanding as speedclear groups split for the adds but PUG groups normally don't
• Sabetha - cannon DPS role is the biggest thing here and as such people ask for KP hence the "Sabetha only" LFG posts
• Slothasor - mushroom DPS role is a big thing here and as such it is harder to PUG and poison drops are more unforgiving than W1 ; I've done this with 10 scourges and 9 healers (barely hits enrage) so it's doable with gimmicky comps as well if you want to ignore mushrooms
• Bandit Trio - more like openworld , nobody asks for KP and it has 80%+ clear rate per wingman
• Matthias - people ask for KP because of poison drops but other than the reflect role it isn't that role heavy ; unlike every other instance it heavily favors condition damage and fast CC
• Escort - only tower chrono has stress at all, this is basically free (see "instance unlock groups" on Mondays)
• KC - only druid really has to know the orb push and people need to split for greens
• TC - a maze not a boss
• Xera -  people die more to gliding than anything but the puzzle thing with the crystals is annoying if people don't know it
• Cairn - people don't ask for KP generally because it is obvious if you don't know it and scourge stacking to victory will even carry a poor group
• MO - people don't ask for KP generally, the largest roles are claim + dispel
• Samarog - people don't ask for many KP generally
• Deimos - role heavy so people ask for KP especially if you are HK or tank and oil can be a problem much like poison

So 15 instances there which is basically 10 weeks and even if you do only half then it is 20 weeks on par with other methods of legendary armor for first set. It's common to see W1 FC and W4 to samarog on LFG.

 

As someone that does strikes and T4 fractals on a daily basis I have to say that for the majority not doing CMs, basically a HB+ alac ren comp with a druid added instead of another alac ren (or 2x RR if you prefer) you can do more or less every boss in W1-4 except Deimos which needs a HK. For escort instead of chrono you just need someone who can solo cap tower.

 

There's people that truly enjoy raiding and run trainings for two or three hours a week so I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's even whole guilds dedicated exclusively to raid training. Smaller guilds train their newer members just by doing it after they have people watch a video , no KP there. My first time raiding was years ago with a WVW guild and none of us were experienced at it at all.

You know what isn't healthy? Getting 3-5 blue unids after first clear of the week when helping others and an arbitrary 150 magnetite weekly cap. Diminishing returns should be in place but it's ridiculous that happens when strikes are reasonable on a daily basis and you get more out of looting an openworld chest. This is the main reason LFG is less active during the week.

 

I write this as someone who does all modes and mainly WVWs to the point that random players when I raid off LFG recognize me from WVW.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Didnt see your edit 😛

 

But in answer that question:

 

They dont need strict comps or really any dedicated anything(a few t4s do at least need some sort of support, but most can be done without.)

 

They have less players required.

tbh for most cases they don't need strict comps as much as they don't need them in raids. People still ask for roles that make the encounters easier. Not only that, but pretty sure there's nothing that stands in the way for you to play in raids with almost anything you play in fractals unless you overvalue toughness. At which point you could still play as a tank despite of what some people seem think.

 

3 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Theres more room for error if you make a mistake.

Well... maybe in some cases. But that's why it is an aspirational content with adequate rewards behind it that don't grant more power, so anyone not willing to participate is free to make that choice and keep playing with ascended items.

 

3 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

They can be done at my own pace. I can get up and do things between each dungeon/t4 or champion.

As far as I'm aware, in most cases people don't have any problem with giving some time between the encounters. That seems to be reliant on a group and can be as true for raid squads as it is for t4 parties that want to rush dailies. So not sure about this one. That said, I wouldn't have much against raids not being "event chains", so the individual encounters could be accessed easier by any group. (so... pretty much like strikes 😛)

 

3 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Champions i can take my time, and im not racing against the clock to get a certain damage done in x time.

Yup. In some cases. Most raids don't really have any solid dps checks, I doubt you somehow aren't able to deal enough with any coherent build? Or is this the case for you in raids?

 

3 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Also less dependant on other players doing mechanics too. For example: we had a player in our wing 1 clear last night who kept dropping bombs on group causing us to wipe 4 or 5 times. I do not like being affected by the mistakes of others to that degree that i feel my time is being wasted.

Yes, but if a group encounter is filled with meaningless mechanics, then what's even the point? Pretending there are mechanics? 😛 

 

3 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

I *hope* that answers the question, can add more when i get home from work. Mobile is hard to type on 😕

Yup, for the most part. Just some of them seem to be a bit of a stretch imo, which doesn't mean you can't feel that way 😉

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

Considering how raiding is evolving into the toxicity of Elitism I would be happy if Anet would stop introducing new Raids and introduce a new set of legendary armor earned playing Strikes Missions and PvE Meta.

I am making a significant change of mind here because I see too many people being alienated from raids due to unreasonable kill proofs, the lack of people available to run raid training and the increasing number of people giving up on Raids.

I really hate it when people get alienated from playing an MMO, especially when players who raid regularly are too lazy to run training sessions to introduce new players to Raids and the unreasonable requirements asked by Guilds and Pug groups.

Enough is enough. Elitism and alienation are not healthy things and shouldn't belong here.

 

"Lazy to run training sessions"? You think these things just magically happen? It takes a lot of effort to teach. Have you even tried to teach anything in this game to people over the long term in an organized fashion?

 

And even in the context of training sessions, people that want to learn have the responsibility to come prepared. There is a plethora of resources that can be googled. It takes about maybe 15 minutes to find everything, and maybe 15 more to do a rotation on a golem somewhat properly.

 

But a lot of people come into raids or w/e refusing to do that. I think those are the lazy ones; refusing to even spend 30 minutes of preparation.

 

Not that I raid. I treat it more as a novelty anyways, but when I went into one of those training raids, I still put in a few minutes to bring a proper build and tried out the rotation because they are here to teach you about the raid, not how to play your character. .

Edited August 11, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

From where i come , games offer an automatic  LFG system .

I already responded to that somewhere. Not a great idea considering you will mix people with different goals and levels of experience. It's better to just join or create a squad with clear goals in description to make sure you play with who you want.

 

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That way , i dont get discourage when i , a new player and for  a WHOLE WEEK  i see this LFG with highly expaectations .

Ok, I already did something similar in another thread some time ago. But here it goes again -after reading your post I just pressed y and this is what I saw:

https://i.imgur.com/eZYZuie.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/avpOXYc.jpg

 

How come people on the forum claim they're camping lfg WHOLE WEEK and only see high req squads when many, many times I'm simply able to randomly press Y and get a bunch of training/low req/no req squads for raids? Is it because those claims about "only high req squads being available, so it's gated for new players" just... aren't true? At this point I am convinced that's exactly the case. A lot of people claiming they can't get into raids seem to not even try, but instead repeat what they've read somewhere. This is not the way.

 

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I cannot be a leader , because i dont know the mechanics to teach the other other people .

You can always read up (or watch vids/guides) about the encounters. You don't need to, but it should help to know what you're about to deal with.

 

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And after a week when i am in the ropes to create a thread on the forums , about "whoever made it get first and get a headstart ,he can go Raids" .

I've started raiding after people already kept asking for 250li in lfg (and the broadly spread claims about "toxic elitists kicking everyone for smallest mistakes and suboptimal dps" played a significant role in me not wanting to even try it earlier btw). I've learned exclusively through random lfg squads and still play with pugs. And as shown on screenshots above, the low req/training squads are still there pretty regularly.

 

______________________________

 

3 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

Considering how raiding is evolving into the toxicity of Elitism I would be happy if Anet would stop introducing new Raids and introduce a new set of legendary armor earned playing Strikes Missions and PvE Meta.

I am making a significant change of mind here because I see too many people being alienated from raids due to unreasonable kill proofs, the lack of people available to run raid training and the increasing number of people giving up on Raids.

I really hate it when people get alienated from playing an MMO, especially when players who raid regularly are too lazy to run training sessions to introduce new players to Raids and the unreasonable requirements asked by Guilds and Pug groups.

Enough is enough. Elitism and alienation are not healthy things and shouldn't belong here.

Nope. Just as shown above:

Ok, I already did something similar in another thread some time ago. But here it goes again -after reading your post I just pressed y and this is what I saw:

https://i.imgur.com/eZYZuie.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/avpOXYc.jpg

 

And 45 minutes later I pressed y again:

training, no req, training: https://i.imgur.com/Z0O4dtL.jpg

no req, training, no req, low req (1 li) https://i.imgur.com/cgdWQMW.jpg

 

Anyone who wants to learn, has every opportunity to do so. If you don't want to then don't pretend it's on "elitists/community/content/gatekeeping/whatever", because it's evidently and objectively false.

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Dante.1763]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

tbh for most cases they don't need strict comps as much as they don't need them in raids. People still ask for roles that make the encounters easier. Not only that, but pretty sure there's nothing that stands in the way for you to play in raids with almost anything you play in fractals unless you overvalue toughness. At which point you could still play as a tank despite of what some people seem think.

Yea, the comps arent the biggest issue i have with raids honestly, i dont even mind the holy trinity, of past games.

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well... maybe in some cases. But that's why it is an aspirational content with adequate rewards behind it that don't grant more power, so anyone not willing to participate is free to make that choice and keep playing with ascended items.

True, true, It does get to a point though where the cost of ascended + Multiple build slots + Backpack space outpaces the cost of even buying legendary armor, and well..i stopped when i realized how quick it added up. Ill only make Medium ascended now(once i get my Envoy light.), i dont use heavy classes, so no point in that armor at all. Medium? EHHHHHH...i just need a condi set for my thief and ill be good, well, with the current classes.

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

As far as I'm aware, in most cases people don't have any problem with giving some time between the encounters. That seems to be reliant on a group and can be as true for raid squads as it is for t4 parties that want to rush dailies. So not sure about this one. That said, I wouldn't have much against raids not being "event chains", so the individual encounters could be accessed easier by any group. (so... pretty much like strikes 😛)

usually short breaks are okay. But me getting up to do something that takes 30 minutes wouldnt be, and that is why i do struggle getting raid clears. Am very busy, and i can do a fractal that takes less than 10 minutes, get up and do the thing, and come back an hour later and do the next. Asking people to just do one thing, like escort, but quit at at TC doesnt go well.

 

I wish they would go back and turn raids into strikes, not make them easier mind. BUT, allow you to just hop into a boss, without the expectation of going further, would i think make a huge difference in their perception.

 

Add in a daily "raid" category(for non CM raids) and i bet more players would come back daily too, no clue on that, but i doubt it would hurt.

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup. In some cases. Most raids don't really have any solid dps checks, I doubt you somehow aren't able to deal enough with any coherent build? Or is this the case for you in raids?

I do decent damage? I wasnt overly happy with the Wing 1 clear DPS i was doing. In practice i was getting 33k spikes of damage, down to 20k dps as an average, in the actual raid it was less. NOW, we didnt have Alacrity, took an extra healer, so thats a part of it. Thankfully i was only fourth from the top on a Power DPS(SB),(We had two Epi Scourges too, and they had number 1 and  spot for DPS.).

 

I also put the dps loss being due to not knowing the mechanics well myself(But hey least i wasnt dropping bombs on group.).

 

For my condi SB im going to have to go back to the Shortbow build, to many Keys per minute on the normal one, and as such my DPS will be capped a few thousand lower, but its not going to harm a group to take me either 😛

 

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes, but if a group encounter is filled with meaningless mechanics, then what's even the point? Pretending there are mechanics? 😛 

This ill admit is true, though for Sab i think theres plenty of mechanics to watch out for already xD

 

Not looking forward to trying wing 2(Whichever wing has Deimos. Is that 4? bad at these numbers >.>) tommorow. The first two bosses are the ones ive killed the most in that wing, the third ive only killed a few times, and ive never ever killed Deimos..

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, for the most part. Just some of them seem to be a bit of a stretch imo, which doesn't mean you can't feel that way 😉

Just so ye know, i didnt do the confused icon xD

Edited August 11, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

On 8/3/2021 at 10:34 AM, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Anet needs to stop listening to design decisions like these. These kill game modes. IBS is the perfect example of designing with this philosophy, and look what happened, after 4 episodes and 3 maps it was aborted. After episode 1, they pretty much begged the hardcore community to stop leaving and offered a new fractal to stop the bleed.
 At this point pretty much everyone who was on the stage for the IBS announcement was gone from the company.

So where are we at now. 99% on content is for 1 spammers, then they demand more. If something comes out for pvp, raids, fractals, strikes, wvw, they come on these forums and complain that we pay for this game so stop developing this content and give us the rewards as well. And the game is dying (AION is outperforming gw2), everyone is hoping EoD is the redemption arc, or will pull a ff14 a realm reborn (notice new marketing "A cycle is reborn"), but it need to offer things to all communities, not just the 1 spammers. Rewards need to be exclusive otherwise they have no value.

If legendary armor is not incentive enough to get players into Raids, PvP or WvW, then making them available in all game modes won't lower the competitive or Raid populations any lower.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

16 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

So for 6 years , when people come to the forums to whine  KP-LI , damage meters are toxic and scare other people away ?

While ingame the LFG for 6 years its all rainbow and shineshine ?:P

Forcing themm to "get good " backfired , TREMENDOUSLY ...like they wont future support you  .....kind of thing ...

Raid LFGs (Specifically looking for more) were commonly one of a few listing types:
1) [Boss] [Role(s)] Exp
2) [Boss] [Role(s)]  Ping [Item/KP]
3) Training [Boss] Need [Role(s)] Instructions in [Chat/Discord]
4) LF [Role(s)] for static runs on [Time/date]

The third types of groups fill the fastest while the first fills quickly as well.  Groups 1 and 3 fall off the farther from reset you check (Basically, checking post reset  on the day they reset there's lots of groups while checking saturday/sunday leaves very few open groups.) This leaves groups like  the 4th and 2nd to linger on the LFG, making it so the only listings newbies see are  those sorts of group types.  For some reason, they think that those groups are the only sort of groups that form, ever and  also completely ignore  the button to make their own posting. 

Some of these players then come to the forums to express their dissatisfaction or to seek out a group and see all these people complaining about group type 2, about how they had a toxic experience with one or more raiders (And  some of these people, when pressed for logs/info fail to provide or  it turns out they were under-performing/failing a mechanic and were repeatedly asked to correct it before being kicked when they didn't make any  correction.)  Or there are just stories of "I made my own group but we failed 6 times and people  kept leaving."  Yeah, this sucks, but also, your group failed 6 times, and if each pull is ~5 minutes with 3 minutes p rep time, that's 48 minutes used to kill one boss.  It's par for the course, no one wants to waste  that much time on a single kill.

 

Quote

Raids are created in mind to be killed with 6k DPS in 10 min .

And not in 4 min with 20k

Even Colin used to say that he enjoys to play Raids with his Core Warrior , in order to mitigate this problem

 

 

You created the new generation of Raider that will keep your work , and now lets see how they effect Strikes .

Aight, let's pick this apart.

Group assumption:
Mirror squad. 2x Boon Chrono, 2x  druid, 4x DPS, 1x Banners, 1x kiter


Druid: 3-4k DPS
Boon Chrono: 4-5k DPS
DPS: 10k DPS
Banners: 10k DPS
Kiter: 0 DPS

(10k DPS is  very easy to achieve consistently throughout any fight.)
With this  estimate, that's 64k DPS max, 61k DPS minimum.  Realistically,  once dealing with mechanics, if your squad is barley pulling over 64k peak, it's going to be pulling substantially less w hen players have to run away for ~20 seconds.


Dhuum has 32,000,000 hp
You have 10 minutes to get  him down to 10%,
2 minutes are spent during the pre-phase to prevent reaper deaths.
This leaves you with 8 minutes. In those 8 minutes, you have to do 28,800,000 damage to Dhuum or he enrages (Though I think if you timeout t here, he just outright kills you.)

What does this mean?
The theoretical outright, bare minimum total squad DPS you need is 60,000 to make it just in time before enrage. This is 28,800,000 / 480 seconds  (You regain 2 minutes at 10%).  Okay, so that means a squad needs to do 6k DPS each, right?  Well no, you don't want to cut it that close and there are these things  called mechanics.
 

Mechanics:
Throughout the fight
Reaper Greens.  3 players have to  cycle  standing  near reapers or the instance f ails.  Once taken up after the aoe procs, they have to  collect pink orbs.  This takes them out of the fight for  at  least a minute  each.  Kiter and Tank can do one to lose out on less damage.  There are big pink orbs that must be collected to else the squad has to deal with more enforcers.
Deathlings on western  reaper need to be cleared occasionally else the reaper can die to the swarm and if a reaper dies, the squad wipes.

HP %
at 90% Cracks will form on the ground every 30s. They do massive damage and spread out in a large area.
at 60% Dhuum will ink two players together (Closest to Dhuum that's not the tank and another).  These players will have to separate to avoid taking massive damage.

Timed:
1min & 00s in players will receive Arcing Affliction (massive aoe damage, one person has to go 5k range away or people take massive damage) This will happen every three seconds after detonation (Either early or  13s after the  debuff timer expires.)
2min & 55s in and every 80s after, there's a lesser deathmark.  This does massive damage and splits people from their soul.  You have to move out of this or die.
3min & 35s in and every 80s after there's a greater version of that death mark.  This lasts  for about 10s and you also do no damage during this time.
 

Man, that's a lot of mechanics to deal with, and, if you're squad is only doing 60k DPS, you're in for a very, very bad time.

[Dawdler.8521]

This thread is starting to make me question whether anyone anywhere actually have the PvE legendary armor or if its just a myth.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

48 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

This thread is starting to make me question whether anyone anywhere actually have the PvE legendary armor or if its just a myth.

It's a myth.  The game's too difficult and no one wants to work together in this cooperative MMO.

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

This thread is starting to make me question whether anyone anywhere actually have the PvE legendary armor or if its just a myth.

 

Definitely a myth and legend. Alongside Gifts of Battle. The 12 disciples gatekeep all secrets and make sure nobody knows how to do any dps. Said secrets to make a user friendly dps rotation are only revealed once in a blue moon and you certainly can't find any hints after searching Youtube for 3 minutes.

 

 

 

 

Ok, this channel is great. I never expected that really.

 

But you gotta admit that people that learn WvW have it worse, since all I'm getting is montages of killing afk people.

Edited August 12, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Astralporing.1957]

Quote

Now they improved themselves and are willing t oimprove themselves atleast step by step and new player influx is increasing...

Is that why the population of strikes and raids is at low levels?

 

Quote

what's your motive here?

Giving majority of PvE players a path to legendary armor that is currently denied to them.

 

Quote

only difference between easily aquired wvw legy armo and raid armor is stow and draw animation effect in the raid armor... why not leave it as it is to let it have its own chance to attract new players 

Because WvW and SPvP paths are for WvW and SPvP players, not for PvE ones.

WvW path, for example, may not be hard, but for PvE player it still means spending ~20 hours per week (3 hours daily, every day) in content they would not play in otherwise.

That's 3 hours per day less for playing what you actually like.

 

Quote

if u plan on improving the content why try to kill it?

I don't plan of improving raids. Not anymore. I used to give out some suggestions in the past, but eventually realized that raiders are not interested in them. They'd rather pretend that nothing needs changing that acknowledge that stuff they so like has issues.

 

I will ask a different question though - why you do not want to improve the content? Without it, legendary armor exclusivity is not going to help anyway, as the past and current history has shown. All it does is extend the agony, and hinder introduction of changes that might have helped.

 

It's people like you, that think you can just buy off people to create fake popularity that caused the death of the content. Because it's this very approach that prevented the problems from being fixed when they still had a chance of being fixed.

 

Quote

try your best to include new content that might attract the kind of players into raids that you feel like... why kill the opportunity for like minded ppl for the existing raid system?

Why would i be interested in that? I'm not a raider. I do not really care whether raids end up successful or not. You do. 

 

Quote

you do realize you are posting these comments on a thread where the focus is directed towards the single tiny aspect that raid legy has animation effect.. tahts the only thing thats different.. all other convenience of legendary armor are available in 2 other game modes as well where theres no stress involved.. all it takes is daily contribution in those game modes towards the legendary armor goal.

And? All those modes suffer from exactly the same problem - they are not meant for a huge majority of PvE players.

 

Quote

with all these things  you try to imply that ppl who raid are not staying there .. idk where and how u derived these percentage numbers...

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics

look specifically at: Raids: Total raid tokens (it counts LI+LD, including the ones already spent on legendary armor)

(and for actual legendaries you can look at at Collectables: Legendary items (weapons) and Legendary items (armor) )

 

Quote

but lemme give a few simple more straightforward numbers..

ppl who engage in raids are mostly who are determined to achieve the goal and ther ecould be a few deviations but mostly determined players step into that content... tahts why the percentage could be low but in reality actual number of ppl who do raids just for doing raids could be way more .. some ppl might not even care about the armor or consider it an extra cost of gold and stick to their ascended gears...

Suure. Which is why most people that engaged in raids give up very fast. It's definitely because they love raiding soo much [/sarcasm]

 

Quote

stats:

All those stats you've given, unlike mine, do not tell you how many armor sets someone has (there's no specific order of unlocking armor weights after all). As such, mine are better in visualising what's going on.

 

The same goes for legendary weapon stats you brought up - they divide percentages by specific weapons, but again, there's no special order in which people aim at legendaries.

 

So, let's give you the real legendary weapion and armor stats:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryItemsWeapon

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryItemsArmor

As you can see, 39% of all players posess at least one legendary weapon, compared to 13.5% that posess at least one armor piece,10% that posess at least 6 pieces (one set), and 2% that posess 18 pieces (3 sets) - notice, though, that it also counts those with WvW or SPvP legendary armor pieces (and that having 6 pieces may not necessarily mean a full set, although people with individual pieces from sets of different weights that do not make a full set are likely edge cases)

 

In the 4000+ hours playtime players group, 88% players posess at least one legendary weapon, 48% posess at least one armor piece, 39.5% posess at least 6 pieces (one set), and 10.5% posess 18 pieces (3 sets).

(and again, not all of those armor pieces come from raids)

 

As you can see, even in the most dedicated player group (the group most likely to be raiding) acquisition of legendary weapons is significantly higher than armor. In the group of all players the difference is even higher.

 

Quote

look at the percentage of dedicated ppl in open world pve who are willing t ocraft or aquire legendary weapons...

Yeah, look at that: nearly 40% in all players group, and 88% of the most active veterans.

 

Quote

and u want the raid armor to be made avaialble to open world pve even if there are already 2 more legy armors easily aquirable out there...

First, i don't want to make raid armor to be available. I want a separate set (but of comparable quality, not a blank one like for WvW/SPvP) to be available. Second, i was unaware there were 2 legendary armors easily acquirable in open world already... Surely you did not meant SpvP and WvW sets, seeing as they require playing completely different, separate content?

 

Quote

so called majority of the ppl 92% majority of players... but only less than 5% even bothered to craft vision what a joke!

I haven't bothered to craft vision and Aurora as well - and i won't as long as i won't be able to disable their visual effects, it's just that ugly. Your point?

 

(besides, until armory, there was no real point in crafting legendary trinkets first - ascended trinkets are easily acquirable, so people going for legendaries are more interested in pushing for weapons and armor first, and only after that consider trinkets)

 

Quote

and yet you try your best to paint it black when ppl see a rainbow.

You see a rainbow. By now even most raiders admit that the situation is not good. And the whole raid team either already left Anet or got moved to other projects. We've had confirmation of this at some point.

 

Quote

If you feel teh content has problems and i dont feel the content has any major problems.. who is the one at fault here?

You tell me. But you not seeing there is a problem does not make it disappear.

 

Quote

eitehr u have to fix yourself or.. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Leave something alone"

But if it is broken, you should fix it. Instead of pretending everything is okay as long as you'll keep buying off people to keep the grass painted.

 

Quote

can u please explain how you end up with those numbers u projected?

See above - gw2efficiency site, tracking number of legendary insights and divinations people have.

 

Quote

ok.. so what ure saying is... u despise the content after doing it.. and then continued to do the content even after you aquired your first set of legendary armor and then you still continued to do it and accumulated 750 li even though you dislike the medium armor and in no way motivated to craft the remaining 2 sets of leg yarmors..... which is 750 boss kills in raids... and still stand by what you are posting in this thread ... at this point, I feel like its a total waste of my time replying and checking out gw2 efficiency stats and stuff to post in this thread...

Of course it is a waste of your time. After all, you do not want to hear what i try to tell you, because you'd rather believe everything is sunshine and rainbow even when the content dies all around you.

 

Quote

thread is about a cool skin that is locked behind raid content...

No. That was what OP intended, but the thread extended to general legendary armor acquisition issue within first few posts.

 

Quote

the convenience of legendary armor is alread yavaialble by 3 means possible thru 3 game modes and u cant ask anything more than this

Why can't I? Because you do not like it?

 

Quote

... the only difference between the raid armor and otehr armors is the cool skin...

Yes, but those other armor are also not meant for the majority of this game's players (which happen to be PvE players that do not raid)

 

Quote

 the open world pve players are less than 5% dedicated in crafting legendary items..

Statistics for legendary weapons i posted above show otherwise.

 

Quote

why do you try to kill a game mode if your actions are not even gonna make a dent in the other game mode by killing raids? so pointless...

Why do you try to prop up a failing gamemode at the cost of enjoyment to many players that go in there to get legendary armor but do not enjoy it in the slightest?

Why all those players should care about raid success at all?

 

You want non-raid players to help keep raids alive, but what you are misisng is that those players do not get anything out of it. You just treat them as sacrificial tools that let you have fun.

 

And that is not something i'd agree with.

 

Quote

also if you intend to improve the raid mode, please do it someother way...

I don't. I do not believe at this point it's even worth the effort, seeing as the raoders themselves do not want to see it improved, and would rather see it die around them than allow anything to change.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

ANet's already committed to delivering new challenging content in EoD with strikes and their CMs.  If going off of their most recent communication for  everything, fractals are still in development (Though likely on pause because expansion), Strikes are the stepping stones to raids, and raids will continue development once  there are enough strikes to have  enough of a step up to raids in difficulty.   Strikes have been getting progressively more difficult. From the Head empty; player afk difficulty of shiverpeaks pass to the more difficult ones with Boneskinner and WoJ along with the CMs in Forging Steel.  If we go off of what ANet has stated, then this is them working towards making the content more accessible.  If you get a group that regularly does strikes, you've now got a group of 10 people for raids.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Strikes are the stepping stones to raids, and raids will continue development once  there are enough strikes to have  enough of a step up to raids in difficulty. 

More like, once enough people will travel those steps to increase raid population to satisfactory levels (whatever that means for Anet). If that won't happen, Strike CMs will likely be the end of the road from now on. Unless those CMs fail too, of course.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

If we go off of what ANet has stated, then this is them working towards making the content more accessible.

That is my take on it as well. The difference is that i think that Anet is doing it not by making steps (which has already been shown to not work as well as they originally hoped), but by changing the way the content itself is done. So, by transitioning from raids to multitiered Strikes.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

More like, once enough people will travel those steps to increase raid population to satisfactory levels (whatever that means for Anet). If that won't happen, Strike CMs will likely be the end of the road from now on. Unless those CMs fail too, of course.

Pretty sure Fractal CMs are done by very few people compared to the rest of the people who just do the dailies for the tiers they can do, yet this doesn't stop ANet  from developing new fractals with new CMs.  I sincerely doubt strike CMs would suffer in development as they're actively laying out plans for how to make it work.  You fight a boss in story, t hat boss is now a strike and has a CM attached to the strike mission.

 

Quote

That is my take on it as well. The difference is that i think that Anet is doing it not by making steps (which has already been shown to not work as well as they originally hoped), but by changing the way the content itself is done. So, by transitioning from raids to multitiered Strikes.

You're making a hard claim that it didn't work.  If it didn't work, why in the world would ANet not only be making more strikes, but also adding strike CMs to them?

[Dante.1763]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Pretty sure Fractal CMs are done by very few people compared to the rest of the people who just do the dailies for the tiers they can do, yet this doesn't stop ANet  from developing new fractals with new CMs.  I sincerely doubt strike CMs would suffer in development as they're actively laying out plans for how to make it work.  You fight a boss in story, t hat boss is now a strike and has a CM attached to the strike mission.

 

You're making a hard claim that it didn't work.  If it didn't work, why in the world would ANet not only be making more strikes, but also adding strike CMs to them?

Personal example: i enjoy strikes with two exceptions, whisper and boneskinner due to the differences they have with raids. Whisper and boneskinner are much closer(or even harder) than some raid bosses, i dont enjoy them.

 

Now.

 

I hope CMs remain and more get added moving forward.

 

Optional harder content is a good thing. I hope however that they dont:

 

A.) Make them required as they did with one of the IBS strikes. 

B.) tie a unique reward to them(challenge mode i mean) Let the content live or die on its own merits first without any artificial numbers.

 

Ill probably do them, the bare minimum times to get whatever achievement anyways, because i can do them, but i wont enjoy it. If they are truly optional it would be a massive plus for the game.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Pretty sure Fractal CMs are done by very few people compared to the rest of the people who just do the dailies for the tiers they can do, yet this doesn't stop ANet  from developing new fractals with new CMs. 

Not all of the new fractals have CMs, and they pretty much said that we should not consider CMs as a given in the future either. And it's not like we're getting a lot of fractals lately.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I sincerely doubt strike CMs would suffer in development as they're actively laying out plans for how to make it work.  You fight a boss in story, t hat boss is now a strike and has a CM attached to the strike mission.

They were actively laying out plans for raids as well, and it ended how it ended eventually. Sure, they certainly seem to hope it will go well, but we can;t be 100% sure it will go as planned, can we?

As for story/strike/CM plan... notice how the last boss fight was not a strike but a story/50/80 man instance? They are still looking at options.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You're making a hard claim that it didn't work.  If it didn't work, why in the world would ANet not only be making more strikes, but also adding strike CMs to them?

If strikes worked as steps to raids, they would have been developing more raids instead of Strike CMs. It's exctly the very fact that they're talking about CMs now that shows that their original idea didn't work as well as they hoped.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

Newer fractals have also been getting more mechanically interesting besides the CMs.  They've had new ideas for navigation and boss fights.  Fractals are also something that take time to develop, like, a lot of time.  I did the maths between days back before it was just a week until Sunqua Peak.  Currently, that team is either working on a new fractal or is more than likely working on strikes to help make the bosses & mechanics for the new strikes & their CMs.

As for Raids, they suffered the same design problems as dungeons.  Big, sprawling instances prone to bugging, requiring new story, voice acting, models, maps, assets, skins/items for rewards, and new bosses with interesting mechanics that are only fought in the raid and nowhere else.  They're at least not hardcoded, I think.  Given how strapped their team was at the time (Spread out working on other things that aren't GW2), they had to drop raids because they were too much work and would have interfered with the LW release schedule if they stuck to their proposed release cadence for fractals & raids during season 3 & 4.  What Strikes serve to do is make it substantially easier to develop these things for.  They've already made the instance for the story, so why not recycle the boss, tweak the mechanics, and add a Challenge Mode for those of us who actually enjoy having enemies that are actually a threat? 

What's likely going to happen is that ANet will release progressively more difficult strikes with their CMs, and, eventually, while using their new system to develop strikes, learn how to chain strikes together to make a new raid.  That's all Raids are, really, if you ignore the story and new instance, it's technically just a series of bosses and events, what would equate to 3-4 strike missions in a row.

Also:
 

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If strikes worked as steps to raids, they would have been developing more raids instead of Strike CMs. It's exctly the very fact that they're talking about CMs now that shows that their original idea didn't work as well as they hoped.

Negative.  There's another way of looking at this other than blind cynicism.  Perhaps ANet thought strikes weren't difficult enough for the top end players and wanted to give them something while the steps are put in place.

 

10 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Personal example: i enjoy strikes with two exceptions, whisper and boneskinner due to the differences they have with raids. Whisper and boneskinner are much closer(or even harder) than some raid bosses, i dont enjoy them.

 

Now.

 

I hope CMs remain and more get added moving forward.

 

Optional harder content is a good thing. I hope however that they dont:

 

A.) Make them required as they did with one of the IBS strikes. 

B.) tie a unique reward to them(challenge mode i mean) Let the content live or die on its own merits first without any artificial numbers.

 

Ill probably do them, the bare minimum times to get whatever achievement anyways, because i can do them, but i wont enjoy it. If they are truly optional it would be a massive plus for the game.

Why shouldn't difficult content have unique rewards f or those that perform them?  Do you have a similar issue with say, the abyssal  fractal weapons + infusions that can only be obtained via doing Fractal CMs?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Astralporing.1957]

36 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Negative.  There's another way of looking at this other than blind cynicism.  Perhaps ANet thought strikes weren't difficult enough for the top end players and wanted to give them something while the steps are put in place.

Maybe you did not understand my point. Which was:

Anet supposedly introduced Strikes as a stepstone to raids, in order to divert more players to raids, so they could justify further raid development. And yet, they did not go back to developing raids - they moved to Strike CMs instead. Does that not suggest to you that, the original goal was (so far at least) not reached? And if it was not reached in all that time, it's not likely it will be reached in the future either.

 

Sure, they may consider CMs to be a new stepping stone, but if they think they need more now, it means those they planned originally are not enough.

 

There's nothing cynical in that. More like realistic.

 

Besides, you can clearly see the demarkation line that separates the more casual players doing strikes from the raiders doing them. It lies at Whisper of Jormag. The stepstones do not work, because the players that were supposed to take them follow them only to certain height, and then just stop. The only thing that idea is good for is showing which difficulty levels are cutoffs for which parts of playerbase.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Dante.1763]

40 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

 

Why shouldn't difficult content have unique rewards f or those that perform them?  Do you have a similar issue with say, the abyssal  fractal weapons + infusions that can only be obtained via doing Fractal CMs?

Simple difference to me:

Fractals have had a steady population, despite the lack of constant new content, adding more unique rewards to a established mode with a decent player base, that is steady, makes perfect sense.

 

Strike CMS are new(At least in such a number as is probably coming, current strike rewards can be obtained regardless of challenge motes, which..i think only one has anyways?). Not adding unique rewards(More rewards is absolutely agreeable) would give more accurate initial numbers for how many players will do the content if it wasnt mandatory to complete(not needed for a meta like one of IBS's is.), and lacked a unique reward drop.

 

If a unique reward is tied behind the content, it will have a surge of initial players who do the content, get the unique reward, and drop the content after, giving anet inaccurate numbers as to how popular the CM is.

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

19 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Simple difference to me:

Fractals have had a steady population, despite the lack of constant new content, adding more unique rewards to a established mode with a decent player base, that is steady, makes perfect sense.

 

Strike CMS are new(At least in such a number as is probably coming, current strike rewards can be obtained regardless of challenge motes, which..i think only one has anyways?). Not adding unique rewards(More rewards is absolutely agreeable) would give more accurate initial numbers for how many players will do the content if it wasnt mandatory to complete(not needed for a meta like one of IBS's is.), and lacked a unique reward drop.

 

If a unique reward is tied behind the content, it will have a surge of initial players who do the content, get the unique reward, and drop the content after, giving anet inaccurate numbers as to how popular the CM is.

 

 

 

That's the thing.  If they're unique ascended skins, I don't think it's going to cause problems because Boneskinner already has unique ascended skins tied to the content that requires multiple clears and, I'm pretty sure ANet also can factor in the initial surge of interest (That hump will be there regardless of rewards as it's new content) then make more accurate calculations further on.    They don't just take the first 3 months of engagement and go from there.  They're more than likely taking several months, and, since new strikes are on the horizon, they know people enjoy and do them, even if you, personally, don't.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

That's the thing.  If they're unique ascended skins, I don't think it's going to cause problems because Boneskinner already has unique ascended skins tied to the content that requires multiple clears and, I'm pretty sure ANet also can factor in the initial surge of interest (That hump will be there regardless of rewards as it's new content) then make more accurate calculations further on.    They don't just take the first 3 months of engagement and go from there.  They're more than likely taking several months, and, since new strikes are on the horizon, they know people enjoy and do them, even if you, personally, don't.

Unique ascended skins are likely not a problem unless you'll really overdo on those. Boneskinner has a few, and practically nobody comments on it. Fractal CMs have a different-colored variant of an already existing set, and it's also generally not an issue. Just do not try to put in there skins that are on a whole level above the norm, or try to lock legendaries behind them, and it should be fine.

 

As for the second part, however... The mistake you claim they would not do is something they very much have done with Raids already. Also, that type of content has a much longer release cycle than just 3 months.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Dante.1763]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

That's the thing.  If they're unique ascended skins, I don't think it's going to cause problems because Boneskinner already has unique ascended skins tied to the content that requires multiple clears and, I'm pretty sure ANet also can factor in the initial surge of interest (That hump will be there regardless of rewards as it's new content) then make more accurate calculations further on.    They don't just take the first 3 months of engagement and go from there.  They're more than likely taking several months, and, since new strikes are on the horizon, they know people enjoy and do them, even if you, personally, don't.

 

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Unique ascended skins are likely not a problem unless you'll really overdo on those. Boneskinner has a few, and practically nobody comments on it. Fractal CMs have a different-colored variant of an already existing set, and it's also generally not an issue. Just do not try to put in there skins that are on a whole level above the norm, or try to lock legendaries behind them, and it should be fine.

Astral put it a bit better than me here. I dont have an issue with unique ascended loot being tied to content(Drop rates, and not being able to sell them are another issue for another thread, that i take issues with. xD).

 

The fractal ascended weapons are a reshade of the regular ones, and if i im looking at the right skins, the boneskinner ones are just a slightly upgraded version of a skin you can buy, dont have an issue with that, if thats the route they keep going down. 🙂

 

I do not however want a repeat of the Envoy Armor however, now i will say i imagine if they did add a set of pve obtainable armor that didnt include raids, it would involve doing strikes(and probably CMs), but id hope they didnt make that entire focus of the content like Envoy Armor.

 

Also, i dont mind the CMs, i do want more added, for those folks that fully enjoy the hard content, i dont need to do them if i dont want to in their current implementation, and i hope they keep that mindset moving forward with their design.

[Tails.9372]

47 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

it would involve doing strikes(and probably CMs)

 

They said that strike CMs are going to be on "the level of raids" is terms of difficulty so if they put "a new set" behind those then we're going to have the whole topic all over again.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

55 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

I do not however want a repeat of the Envoy Armor however, now i will say i imagine if they did add a set of pve obtainable armor that didnt include raids, it would involve doing strikes(and probably CMs), but id hope they didnt make that entire focus of the content like Envoy Armor.

 

Also, i dont mind the CMs, i do want more added, for those folks that fully enjoy the hard content, i dont need to do them if i dont want to in their current implementation, and i hope they keep that mindset moving forward with their design.

Envoy had me spending more time  doing HoT metas and running around for provisioner tokens+materials than spending time in raids and that's not saying I'm good at raids, that's me saying that raids, while they are a portion of the requirement, are only a small part of the whole requirement.  Someone earlier also posted a list of raid encounters that give LI that are also generally low KP or free in a sense as statics like skipping them.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

They said that strike CMs are going to be on "the level of raids" is terms of difficulty so if they put "a new set" behind those then we're going to have the whole topic all over again.

Strikes also reset daily and they're definitely not making the same mistakes with Strike CMs as they did with Raid CMs where, for the longest time, there was zero incentive to redo raid CMs once you had them.  There's still very little reason to redo them too but there's at least an achievement there to give repeat rewards.  There's also no reason why they shouldn't put it behind Strikes and strike CMs.  Strikes see way more play than raids anyways.