Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Obtena.7952]

18 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

No one is debating otherwise, followed by debating why people dont want to do the content?

I don't get what you are asking me. It's irrelevant why people don't want to do the content, Therefore, people continually saying "just do the content" isn't an answer to the problem that the content isn't implemented to engage most players. 

[yann.1946]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They have always been exceedingly positive about their recent new ideas. Notice also, that what came latter suggested, that while they might not have expected as "surprisingly high participation" initially, they did expect that population to go up with time. Instead, it only kept getting down from that initial wave, until they gave up on the idea. Basically, everyone that was even slightly interested in finding out what raids are and whether they're fine for them or not tried them in the very beginning, and then some remained to do the content, while others gave up either immediately or after some time. And there was no significant number of new raiders because those that could have tried raids have already done that by this point (and the other source of new raiders - players that were completely new to the game - was practically never big enough to matter, or even cover the veterans leaving).

 

The raids could only bleed players, and it could not have been balanced by new blood coming in, because there was next to no new blood to be had (and "old blood" by that time already made their decision).

 

Do you really think that if they knew beforehand that the raid design will end with them deciding to abandon that content due to way too low population, that if they knew that the vast majority of players will simply nope out on raids even when actively being funneled into them, they would have still went with the very same design, instead of trying something else? Perhaps something more open, or even something completely different?

You are missing the point here, they explicitly designed the rewards with the idea in mind that the majority won't really have access to them. The fact that they decreased in population does not really matter.  

 

The only argument you could make against mine is that they expected the majority to eventually do raids. But no sane person would make that claim. 

 

And where did they say they expected the population to increase? 

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

But that is not how this game's raids work. This mindsetl looks so weird to me, some games forced some content called raids to much, so I'm against raids in all other games?

Yeah, the point is how they are meant to work doesn't work either ... and that's clearly Anet is done with developing raid content. Basically, if a player submits themselves to content, happily OR begrudgingly, for whatever reason, that add a 'tick' to the 'Are raids successful?" box at Anet HQ. 

[yann.1946]

Honestly these discussions are a little silly because they come down to one question. 

Should their be exclusive rewards/ reward categories for gamemodes/game types. 

 

All the other questions about popularity etc don't really matter

 

 

And to me it seems that in general people agree with this until their is some specific thing they want. For example, almost nobody complained that the skyscale required open world. They complained about the timegate

Edited August 8, 2021 by yann.1946

[Xanadrine.4352]

15 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Sorry but dungeons and world bosses are not really challenging content. Someone in this thread mentioned the new strike missions as a possibility to implement a new legendary armor set. I think that could be a good way. 

Not for raiders, but we are not talking about raiders are we. Its been said in this thread that most players dont even know their spells. Dungeons are plenty hard for most people, I have gone into some dungeons only to have a wipefest for 2 hours trying to kill a boss with a pug group. This is wholly new content for a lot of people, some of the bosses are pretty hard for a group like that. I rather do dungeons than strikes, strikes are so simple even bone skinner is a stack and follow the leader boss. At least the dungeons have an environment , not just a room with a boss in it. which is part of the point of an overworld leggy set. To make a journey out of it, and follow the story, you could have some strikes, but dungeons have a unique story and setting.  Besides strikes would go down faster than a dungeon lol, too easy.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Zuldari.3940

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

You are missing the point here, they explicitly designed the rewards with the idea in mind that the majority won't really have access to them. The fact that they decreased in population does not really matter.  

 

The only argument you could make against mine is that they expected the majority to eventually do raids. But no sane person would make that claim. 

 

And where did they say they expected the population to increase? 

Actually, explicitly designed rewards with the idea in mind that the majority won't really have access to them IS a MASSIVE problem. That actually makes NO sense for Anet or any other MMO to design content this way. Think about that ... a game dev explicitly designing content/rewards in a way that most people will never get them. Do you not see why this approach is ridiculous in an MMO where Anet is trying to engage as many people as possible in game content? It's especially bad in this case because the reward relevant to the content in question is a CONVENIENCE upgrade, not a performance one. It's a no-brainer in that case to widen the engagement. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Dawdler.8521]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get what you are asking me. It's irrelevant why people don't want to do the content, Therefore, people continually saying "just do the content" isn't an answer to the problem that the content isn't implemented to engage most players. 

I'm not asking anything, lol. Just saying this thread is so far 10 pages of people debating other people not wanting to do the content. It is indeed irrelevant why they dont want to do it but uh... they dont regardless, dont they?

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I'm not asking anything, lol. Just saying this thread is so far 10 pages of people debating other people not wanting to do the content. It is indeed irrelevant why they dont want to do it but uh... they dont regardless, dont they?

I'm saying the debate shouldn't be about what content people do and don't want to do ... the game doesn't cater to individuals desires.

 

The debate should be how and what content engage players. It's pretty obvious why it's in everyone's best interest that all content be engaging to all the players, so that shouldn't be in question. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[yann.1946]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, explicitly designed rewards with the idea in mind that the majority won't really have access to them IS a MASSIVE problem. That actually makes NO sense for Anet or any other MMO to design content this way. Think about that ... a game dev explicitly designing content/rewards in a way that most people will never get them. Do you not see why this approach is ridiculous in an MMO where Anet is trying to engage as many people as possible in game content?

Do you think legendaries are designed in a way that the majority of players will have eventually have one? 

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, yann.1946 said:

Do you think legendaries are designed in a way that the majority of players will have eventually have one? 

Weapons I do think that. Everything else is a no. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Well there are others, you can take any online RPG launched between 1995 and 1997 in which the terms MMOG and MMORPG were coined and classify it as a MMOG really, even MUD's can qualify.
By extent even, every MMORPG today is an MMOG since they basically mean the same thing.

The distinction is simply what the Massive implies, you claimed cooperation but by very definition it only implies a large number of players being able to interact on a server.
How they interact is irrelevant in that regard.. they could cooperate or antagonise each other, it would still be an MMO regardless of that.

But it is not irrelevant. I was explaining that nearly all games which launched this genre were designed with cooperation in mind and in fact made it a necessity that players work together. Very successful I might add given some of these games are still around decades later.

 

I explained how the cooperation aspects were shifted and refined to both allow a wider audience as well as better accessibility. Which no one denies.

 

Quote

The games not being intended as soloable isn't really important to the naming convention.

It is when others bring this up and distort the historical process and development of where this genre came to be.

 

It's not important to the naming or when which term was implemented, true, besides a certain expectation going along with those terms.

Quote

If it was then you could argue GW2 wouldn't be an MMO lol

 

From a standpoint of player cooperation, it almost isn't.

 

In fact, for a part of this player base this game is nothing more than a glorified single player game where they occasionally see others running around. Those players are in a MMO, but they are not participating in it. The term is thus coined by those who do treat the game as a MMO.

 

Case in point:

I really got involved with GW1 once Nightfall came out (I had played the original game up til the last mission solo with henchman up to then, that was it). Now GW1 was no MMORPG, it still isn't. Still, I treated and played it like a single player game (even once Nightfall came out thanks to heros), which I perfectly enjoyed. I was NOT part of the player base which would qualify to coin the game a multiplayer game. For me GW1 was not a multiplayer game, it was a pure single player experience.

 

This game needs to be designed as a MMORPG, not as some glorified single player game where player can pat themselves on the back because they are wishful thinking that they are participating in a MMO when in are not, in fact participating.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Dawdler.8521]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm saying the debate shouldn't be about that. It should be how and what content should engage players. 

It should, but thats called suggesting improvements while still doing the content because the content is whats currently there so thats what you need to do.

 

This is like the GoB discussion all over.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[yoni.7015]

4 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

Not for raiders, but we are not talking about raiders are we. Its been said in this thread that most players dont even know their spells. Dungeons are plenty hard for most people, I have gone into some dungeons only to have a wipefest for 2 hours trying to kill a boss with a pug group. This is wholly new content for a lot of people, some of the bosses are pretty hard for a group like that. I rather do dungeons than strikes, strikes are so simple even bone skinner is a stack and follow the leader boss. At least the dungeons have an environment , not just a room with a boss in it. which is part of the point of an overworld leggy set. To make a journey out of it, and follow the story, you could have some strikes, but dungeons have a unique story and setting.  Besides strikes would go down faster than a dungeon lol, too easy.

That’s why I mentioned the new strikes they are planning for EoD, they will have multiple difficulties. 
But do players who don’t know their spells and are wiping for 2 hours in dungeons really need a legendary armor? 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

What does that have to do with anything?!? Ok so let's say they completely retire tbe content. You still need to do it to get the armor! God the whiney entitled bads in this game are enough to drive people to ff14 or new world I swear.

Change of scenery is not bad 😛

I would miss  althought someon1 to tell me that i am bad and lazy for 6 years and that IIIIIIII "I" scare new players from joining them 😛

Maybe they focus more on the enounter or the npcs and leave the psycology or what other people below them needs to that "aiii pappi , plz "box" me Dev " in anay game ? 😛

 

He has the data what is the average dps of the population does (so it will calculate the boss HP) , AND HE WILL FOCUS ON THE MECHANICS AND DAMAGE RECIEVED .

He dotnes need dps addons to do his job 😛

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Xanadrine.4352]

8 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

You are missing the point here, they explicitly designed the rewards with the idea in mind that the majority won't really have access to them. The fact that they decreased in population does not really matter.  

 

The only argument you could make against mine is that they expected the majority to eventually do raids. But no sane person would make that claim. 

 

And where did they say they expected the population to increase? 

Then that is the downfall of a game, blizzard the king of raiding mmo found that out the hard way. Wildstar paid a price for that attitude, and the list goes on. Envoy would still be the top in uniqueness, but they should do something for the openworld players, the players that do the LWS and the meta events. it dont need to be Envoy, not asking for your unique skin. Without interest in a mode that mode will die, because few do raids you raiders wont get much in content. So you can enjoy your envoy at the cost of raids.

[yann.1946]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Weapons I do think that. Everything else is a no. 

I disagree about the weapon part, but why do you think the added trinkets if they did not expect the majority to get then? 

 

 

And to the broader point, rewards are usefull even for those that will never get them. 

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

I disagree about the weapon part, but why do you think the added trinkets if they did not expect the majority to get then? 

 

 

And to the broader point, rewards are usefull even for those that will never get them. 

OK, I don't see how either of those things change what I'm saying here right ... again, this situation with raids, leg armor and it's engagement with players doesn't make sense, for anyone. Whatever reason I think they added trinkets if most people aren't expected to get them really has nothing to do with the discussion here. I didn't say rewards aren't useful ... but it is easily to criticize how useful it is to the game based on it's low player engagement. 

 

To be fair though .. I don't know what needs to be done for trinkets because I haven't looked into getting them, so I shouldn't include them in my 'low engagement' bucket.  I definitely feel Weapons are something that eventually the average player can get, Armor not and I'm not sure about trinkets. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[yann.1946]

1 minute ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

Then that is the downfall of a game, blizzard the king of raiding mmo found that out the hard way. Wildstar paid a price for that attitude, and the list goes on. Envoy would still be the top in uniqueness, but they should do something for the openworld players, the players that do the LWS and the meta events. it dont need to be Envoy, not asking for your unique skin.

People do not understand gamedesign apperently. Or is it just because raids are attached to the set? 

 

1 minute ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

Without interest in a mode that mode will die, because few do raids you raiders wont get much in content.

That is true

1 minute ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

So you can enjoy your envoy at the cost of raids.

And this makes no sense. 

 

[Xanadrine.4352]

1 minute ago, yann.1946 said:

I disagree about the weapon part, but why do you think the added trinkets if they did not expect the majority to get then? 

 

 

And to the broader point, rewards are usefull even for those that will never get them. 

I know plenty of non raiders with more than one leggy weapon, and the trinkets. No one is debating that weapons can be created by anyone with the time gold mats just playing the game. This whole argument is centered on the armor, which for pve players can only be got in one way, raids. Both forms of pvp in this game get a set wvw and pvp arena. While pve is is strictly raids.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

8 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Change of scenery is not bad 😛

I would miss  althought someon1 to tell me that i am bad and lazy for 6 years and that IIIIIIII "I" scare new players from joining them 😛

Maybe they focus more on the enounter or the npcs and leave the psycology or what other people below them needs to that "aiii pappi , plz "box" me Dev " in anay game ? 😛

 

He has the data what is the average dps of the population does , AND HE WILL FOCUS ON THE MECHANICS AND DAMAGE RECIEVED .

He dotnes need dps addons to do his job 😛

 

 

That's incoherent rabble. Can you elaborate on a point you were trying to make?

[yoni.7015]

There are three game modes in this game: PvE, PvP and WvW. Every mode has its way to get legendary armor. 

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

There are three game modes in this game: PvE, PvP and WvW. Every mode has its way to get legendary armor. 

Yes and the INTERESTING thing about that is for PVP and WvW, there isn't a subset of content that armor is relegated to. In PVE there is. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Xanadrine.4352]

9 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

That’s why I mentioned the new strikes they are planning for EoD, they will have multiple difficulties. 
But do players who don’t know their spells and are wiping for 2 hours in dungeons really need a legendary armor? 

Yes they do, because, because having to do a leggy grind of their own where they need to do x and y in the content they play will also teach them to use their cc, their situational awareness and dps rotations or they wont get the cheeve to do x to get y. We are talking players that spend all their time in open world or meta events or dragonstorm ect, they will learn. There is no real incentive for them to learn, most things people can auto attack in and get picked up when downed. Put that requirement like avoid the wave on Teq for the whole fight as part of the requirement they will learn. I know some players that have never raided and they play better on world bosses, in dungeons and events than some raiders, they deserve their own leggy set. They dont get downed they do the pre, and they cc when they are supposed to. Thats the point their are a lot of good players that only play this way, they just dont want the raid environment they dont enjoy it. but they enjoy the events and bosses  

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

Yes they do, because, because having to do a leggy grind of their own where they need to do x and y in the content they play will also teach them to use their cc, their situational awareness and dps rotations or they wont get the cheeve to do x to get y. We are talking players that spend all their time in open world or meta events or dragonstorm ect, they will learn. There is no real incentive for them to learn, most things people can auto attack in and get picked up when downed. Put that requirement like avoid the wave on Teq for the whole fight as part of the requirement they will learn. I know some players that have never raided and they play better on world bosses, in dungeons and events than some raiders, they deserve their own leggy set. They dont get downed they do the pre, and they cc when they are supposed to. Thats the point their are a lot of good players that only play this way, they just dont want the raid environment they dont enjoy it. but they enjoy the events and bosses  

So use CC and avoid Tequatl’s wave and you get legendary armor? You can’t be serious. 
I doubt that those players really would do this epic grind you are proposing. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by yoni.7015

[Xanadrine.4352]

17 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Quote

So you can enjoy your envoy at the cost of raids.

And this makes no sense. 

It makes sense if there are few raiders and lack of interest then there wont be raids created in the future. So envoy is raid centric and no new leggy will be tied to raids, cause there will be no raids without interest. Maybe the answer is a 3rd mode simply make the wings available with toned down mechanics and add a set to that, not an envoy set because even i believe that the top content should have the better rewards. Im not debating that, but you can add a leggy set that dont have the special effects and the unique skins that envoy has. 

 

One other thing, it makes sense to add a noob raid mode, because then it peaks interest in doing the normal modes, and then some will move on to the harder mode. I have seen this esp in wow. Where for years raiding was only available to the few, when they made dif tiers more interest popped and raiding began to pick up in earnest 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Zuldari.3940