Instead of more nerf/buff solution threads, How about analyzing our mistakes.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

The main reasoning by the community for the removal of Menders Amulet was to nerf Scourge. And yet here we are with less amulets and more scourges than before.

The overwhelming consensus of the community for the removal of damage (and healing) from the game was to lessen the one shot meta of 2019 and lower TTK. Now everyone feels the exact opposite and wants damage returned.

 

Are we going to ignore or repeat the mistakes of the past like mindless zombies? Here is a thread for thought: instead of presenting solutions, nerfs or buffs how about we analyze our mistakes instead…WHY were we wrong? 

[Genesis.5169]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

It's not gonna work bro i've been trying that for 8 years.

[Lucentfir.7430]

All is vain. Hot take here is a majority can't see past their own noses to analyze why things are the way they are currently and just keep going down a line of what's perceived as strong or broken in the now, because it's easier to complain about instead of actually looking into what's actually causing issues. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

59 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

The main reasoning by the community for the removal of Menders Amulet was to nerf Scourge. And yet here we are with less amulets and more scourges than before.

The overwhelming consensus of the community for the removal of damage (and healing) from the game was to lessen the one shot meta of 2019 and lower TTK. Now everyone feels the exact opposite and wants damage returned.

 

Are we going to ignore or repeat the mistakes of the past like mindless zombies? Here is a thread for thought: instead of presenting solutions, nerfs or buffs how about we analyze our mistakes instead…WHY were we wrong? 

IMHO the super strong bursts needed to be toned down, there are still some that need to be toned down, but at the same time there are severely weak options that need to be toned up (see warrior maces and necro daggers).

 

What they should have focused on for the Feb2020 patch was to do that, lower the High DPS burst skills and combos, and raised up some underperforming skills and combos. Basically lowered the DPS ceiling, but raised the DPS floor. Ditto for sustain.

 

The problem with Scourge has almost entirely to deal with Blood Bank and the lack of cast times on F2-F5, healing power just amplified it and was not the root cause of it.

[Genesis.5169]

13 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

IMHO the super strong bursts needed to be toned down, there are still some that need to be toned down, but at the same time there are severely weak options that need to be toned up (see warrior maces and necro daggers).

 

What they should have focused on for the Feb2020 patch was to do that, lower the High DPS burst skills and combos, and raised up some underperforming skills and combos. Basically lowered the DPS ceiling, but raised the DPS floor. Ditto for sustain.

 

The problem with Scourge has almost entirely to deal with Blood Bank and the lack of cast times on F2-F5, healing power just amplified it and was not the root cause of it.

 

Their is no class with strong burst.

Only people who outright just die are people in meme builds who come to the forums and cry about strong burst is a problem.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

 

Their is no class with strong burst.

Only people who outright just die are people in meme builds who come to the forums and cry about strong burst is a problem.

And was I crying?

 

There was a meta where whoever got their burst of first won correct? My statement was implying that those bursts needed to be nerfed, but not all of them were. Are there ways to negate the damage? Sure, we all use them. The flip side to all of this is that the Balance team went through and just arbitrarily nerfed damage on things that were already weak and would have been fine with their old numbers in this current meta and that their approach was fundamentally misguided.

[Exile.8160]

16 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

 

Their is no class with strong burst.

Only people who outright just die are people in meme builds who come to the forums and cry about strong burst is a problem.

 

I guess you've never played vs a high ranking herald Rev lol 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

34 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

IMHO the super strong bursts needed to be toned down, there are still some that need to be toned down, but at the same time there are severely weak options that need to be toned up (see warrior maces and necro daggers).

 

What they should have focused on for the Feb2020 patch was to do that, lower the High DPS burst skills and combos, and raised up some underperforming skills and combos. Basically lowered the DPS ceiling, but raised the DPS floor. Ditto for sustain.

 

The problem with Scourge has almost entirely to deal with Blood Bank and the lack of cast times on F2-F5, healing power just amplified it and was not the root cause of it.

Here is my thing…

 

This thread is supposed to be, not about “why my idea is right,” it’s supposed to be about “why X idea failed.”

and by asking that question, we should be able to learn something about why a particular idea fails.

 

it seems logical that simply tuning certain things back up would work…yet this was also already done many times before too. Pistol Pistol 3 on Thief was tuned up, then tuned down, then tuned up again before being tuned down again. This philosophy of simply tuning things up or down seems inconsistent.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Here is my thing…

 

This thread is supposed to be, not about “why my idea is right,” it’s supposed to be about “why X idea failed.”

and by asking that question, we should be able to learn something about why a particular idea fails.

 

it seems logical that simply tuning certain things back up would work…yet this was also already done many times before too. Pistol Pistol 3 on Thief was tuned up, then tuned down, then tuned up again before being tuned down again. This philosophy of simply tuning things up or down seems inconsistent.

In the spirit then:

 

The Feb2020 patch failed because they used a blanket nerf that hit damage more than sustain (which leads to bunker meta), yet somehow failed to nerf the damage of certain skills/traits and failed to nerf the sustain of certain skills/traits/mechanics resulting in the imbalance that we see today.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910
typo

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

In the spirit then:

 

The Feb2020 patch failed because the used a blanket nerf that hit damage more than sustain (which leads to bunker meta), yet somehow failed to nerf the damage of certain skills/traits and failed to nerf the sustain of certain skills/traits/mechanics resulting in the imbalance that we see today.

 

This. 

 

They did a blanket nerf with the implication that they would do a balance pass to return damage to specs that began to underperform due to the blanket nerf, but then didn't. Whether that is due to satisfaction with the meta or wrist-grabbing by EoD crunch remains to be seen. 

The blanket nerf was incomplete in its initial pass (because it whiffed on certain skills that are now being abused) and on its secondary pass (which is what was needed to avoid bunker meta. Surely they didn't intend for skill traits to have 300 sec cds and for some hard-to-land ccs to do 7 damage on hit forever?) 

 

The community -does- whine, but sometimes they are right, and at the end of the day getting balancing right consists of listening to them on a case by case basis and determining what needs to be changed to provide solutions to egregious problems.

 

The issues we are seeing now are not because the community got everything they wanted or steered the devs wrong, but because a bold balancing direction was half executed, to date. 

 

And because they decided to rework scourge /invert a couple of boons without finishing the megapatch cleanly. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[RedAvenged.5217]

I would to see more weird amulets like destroyers and assassins- that are no way optimal, but can be used sometimes.

marshals was one so idk why they removed it

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

26 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

I would to see more weird amulets like destroyers and assassins- that are no way optimal, but can be used sometimes.

marshals was one so idk why they removed it

 

Their rationale for this was to  "encourage people to use Avatars" or something to that effect, if I remember correctly. 

 

I guess they wanted to discourage healing power oriented condi builds while encouraging power ones? 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[RedAvenged.5217]

5 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Their rationale for this was to  "encourage people to use Avatars" or something to that effect, if I remember correctly. 

 

I guess they wanted to discourage healing power oriented condi builds while encouraging power ones? 

 

 

Now sages is an insanely strong amulet, many side noders could only beat it with the healing power from menders.

 

only reason scourge uses avatars is because it already has mass condition cleanse

[Psycoprophet.8107]

In gw2 community its

1- if I get beat the other class is op.

2- if the other class has a better version of a skill type than my class it's op, regardless of the overall balance between the 2 classes.

3- any class with a skill type ur envious of...is op.

4- if there's a thief on ur team and ur losing, it's always due to the thief.

5- if u see a couple players post something is op on a class u don't play, u must agree and join into the nerf it club.....cuz after all regardless it helps ur class out.

5- list is incomplete due to sheer number of possible answers.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

In the spirit then:

 

The Feb2020 patch failed because they used a blanket nerf that hit damage more than sustain (which leads to bunker meta), yet somehow failed to nerf the damage of certain skills/traits and failed to nerf the sustain of certain skills/traits/mechanics resulting in the imbalance that we see today.

but this also implies that the previous state of balance was actually balanced in the first place, which it wasn’t.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

but this also implies that the previous state of balance was actually balanced in the first place, which it wasn’t.

 

not necessarily. a system can be imbalanced for one reason, fiddled with, then be imbalanced for another reason. 

 

We went from "oneshot imbalance" to "bunker imbalance", because too much of the damage from certain sources was removed (And then the boon/torment inversion, scourge buff on top of that) . That doesn't mean oneshot meta was perfect, just that the state of the game is comparable levels of  frustrating now to what it was before.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

not necessarily. a system can be imbalanced for one reason, fiddled with, then be imbalanced for another reason. 

huh? This is what I said. 
 

lan said: damage was nerfed more than sustain which causes an imbalance, and that skills that were over nerfed by the blanket change should have been compensated to “fix” the balance.
 

This implies that the balance originally before any of those changes was actually balanced, which is not the case. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

but this also implies that the previous state of balance was actually balanced in the first place, which it wasn’t.

I was not implying that though. I'm implying that the attempt to address that meta failed and why I think it failed.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

19 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

huh? This is what I said. 
 

lan said: damage was nerfed more than sustain which causes an imbalance, and that skills that were over nerfed by the blanket change should have been compensated to “fix” the balance.
 

This implies that the balance originally before any of those changes was actually balanced, which is not the case. 

You're reaching beyond the meaning and intent of what I said. Azure is correct. What was there was not balanced. What was done is not balanced. I stated why that is the case. That is of course my opinion and I am fine with anyone disagreeing with my sentiment. I know there are people who love this meta. That's fine, but it's time for the meta to change, and I would rather it happen before EoD.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

I make mistakes in fights all the time, but there really isn't much to analyze because I play a 0 damage CC spam bunker build as intended by the developer. 

 

Before a mistake meant death so you had the entire respawn time to consider what went wrong and why.

 

Now a mistake is missing like half my HP or missing an important knockback to decap nodes, and I can only really consider it after the fact. 

 

Mistakes don't really feel like mistakes anymore, and that itself is a big mistake.

Consequence of turning PvP; as a whole, into a giant jading slogfest.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You're reaching beyond the meaning and intent of what I said. Azure is correct.

I said the exact same thing as azure…your driving a wedge between the two statements, that what we both said is different but it’s the same thing.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I said the exact same thing as azure…your driving a wedge between the two statements, that what we both said is different but it’s the same thing.

I think you need to go reread or rethink a few posts.

[BlackTruth.6813]

Huh? Literally it's this trash mindset where people think the balance team isn't at fault for the game becoming trash.

 

I'll use one example on a class that I play. There is literally no point in signet of rage over banner or rampage in the 3v3 mode, because some utilities are just stronger than the other. Why even play Berserker when Spellbreaker is just forgiving and potentially more damage after that stupid damage nerf that they did patches ago. You are telling me to "learn to play" when some builds are just indisputably better than the other? I can't even enjoy Core Warrior anymore because the balance team is absolute garbage.

 

Do you understand what I'm getting at right now? ANET CONTROLS NUMBERS (i.e casting times, power ratios, etc) AND FACTS AND LOGIC in this stupid game.

 

ANET is forcing people to play the "top 1%" specs because they are the ones who control the game's logic. They decided to screw over Skull Crack's casting time, nerf Warrior condition builds, made indirect nerfs to Longbow due to powercreep, and pidgeonhole Warrior into Greatsword. Are you seriously going to tell me to "L2P, GS/off-hand axe aren't the only good weapon sets right now, you can make telegraphed Mace work vs. 100 evades and 100 stun breaks?" Your logic is garbage.

 

Don't even get me started on instant cast vs. telegraphed skills and z-axis teleports. This game, specially after pre-HoT 2015, forces people to cheese. And it's because of ANET making garbage decisions.

 

You could argue that "just play the braindead characters, so you don't complain" but then that's just a boring trash game where everybody is just a homogenized blob that has no real identity playing nothing but the most obnoxious spec catered to the poorest schmucks because creativity and build variety isn't allowed. Why even have all of these traits in the first place.

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

Huh? Literally it's this trash mindset where people think the balance team isn't at fault for the game becoming trash.

 

I'll use one example on a class that I play. There is literally no point in signet of rage over banner or rampage in the 3v3 mode, because some utilities are just stronger than the other. Why even play Berserker when Spellbreaker is just forgiving and potentially more damage after that stupid damage nerf that they did patches ago. You are telling me to "learn to play" when some builds are just indisputably better than the other? I can't even enjoy Core Warrior anymore because the balance team is absolute garbage.

 

Do you understand what I'm getting at right now? ANET CONTROLS NUMBERS (i.e casting times, power ratios, etc) AND FACTS AND LOGIC in this stupid game.

 

ANET is forcing people to play the "top 1%" specs because they are the ones who control the game's logic. They decided to screw over Skull Crack's casting time, nerf Warrior condition builds, made indirect nerfs to Longbow due to powercreep, and pidgeonhole Warrior into Greatsword. Are you seriously going to tell me to "L2P, GS/off-hand axe aren't the only good weapon sets right now, you can make telegraphed Mace work vs. 100 evades and 100 stun breaks?" Your logic is garbage.

 

Don't even get me started on instant cast vs. telegraphed skills and z-axis teleports. This game, specially after pre-HoT 2015, forces people to cheese. And it's because of ANET making garbage decisions.

 

You could argue that "just play the braindead characters, so you don't complain" but then that's just a boring trash game where everybody is just a homogenized blob that has no real identity playing nothing but the most obnoxious spec catered to the poorest schmucks because creativity and build variety isn't allowed. Why even have all of these traits in the first place.

 

 

I'm a little lost here...is this post directed at me?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think you need to go reread or rethink a few posts.

 

 

"a system can be imbalanced for one reason, fiddled with, then be imbalanced for another reason."

 

"This implies that the balance originally before any of those changes was actually balanced, which is not the case."

 

I'm failing to see, how these two statements are different at all.