Get rid of the phantasms on virtuoso too!

[JazzXman.7018]

8 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

you say instant shatters are an important core mechanic of mesmer, are instant virtues an important core mechanic of guard?

no, their instant nature was just a feature linked into the mostly defensive/ supportive nature of the skills (dh got casttime in exchange for stronger power lvl/ higher impact of the virtues). they are not linked into a whole setup and combo requiring gameplay with insanely unique copies of yourself (rly existing on the battle field) as class resource. its not only instant shatters what makes mes a mes, its the whole ensable of the relations between illusions as very unique setup variant to balance out the instant shatter strength. esp the thing to have copies from yoruself on the field you can use for confusion, tricking the enemy, for bodyblocking etc, while they also enable interactions from the opponents with the copies and phantams (cleave them, interupt them, blind them, get reward for hitting them like thief cloak and dagger on clones, war stacking might hitting burstskills on them, necro building up life force etc) is a big thing that makes mesmer unique and  creating an unique combo and setup gamplay other classes do not have that way.. without classic clones (not the wannabe clone replacement of blades) instant shatters would be broken. thats why the core defining mechanic of mes is a sensible and sensitive ensamble of mechanics standing in a deep realition to each other and influencing the whole gamaplay in an insane deep tactical lvl, creating an unique gameplay blades/ songs do not provide the slightest. and is also no comparision to the difference for guard if the virues are instant or not, thats only a matter of balance in power lvl.

 

also there are classes with 4 cast f -skill like engi and there are classes with a different type of setup requirement (build up a specific class resource) to get access to specific skills like warrior, necro and rev. and the recycler is a hybrid of engi 4 cast f-skills downgraded by a setup requirement of warrior/ nec. its far away from the classic mesmer and just an engi with a hybrid setup nature of a war/nec.

 

a better question would be if steal for thief specs needs to be instant according to the other parts of the core class identity mechanic.  core thief does some minor combos with steal (not as identity relavant as the instant shatter/ illusion relation for mesmer is) but doesnt rly has an unique setup requirement with it. so its a hard quesion to answer. in the end i think thief identity would survive a not instant steal skill but for sure a thief elite with not instant steal would need to get compensated (buffed) hard at other places of the new spec and it would need a very knowledgeable dev with clue about thief to make that thief elite not feel clunky, slow and unfun and less fluid, to keep the core thief gameplay feeling at least a minimum alive on that spec. so in regard of anets limited resources and it seems also limited knowledge of the game (esp pvp) and lack in class knowledge (of some classes at least) they better keep the instant steal and make changes for the thief class in elites around that instant strength to make sure they dont ruin the spec as they did with the virtuoso for mesmer.

 

virtuoso is what rev was in hot: a new profession, and not even the access to mes core traitlines and utilities can turn it back into a mesmer. thats how far the profession mechanic of virtuoso is from core mes.

Edited August 16, 2021 by JazzXman.7018

[Quadox.7834]

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

no, their instant nature was just a feature linked into the mostly defensive/ supportive nature of the skills (dh got casttime in exchange for stronger power lvl/ higher impact of the virtues). they are not linked into a whole setup and combo requiring gameplay with insanely unique copies of yourself (rly existing on the battle field) as class resource. its not only instant shatters what makes mes a mes, its the whole ensable of the relations between illusions as very unique setup variant to balance out the instant shatter strength. esp the thing to have copies from yoruself on the field you can use for confusion, tricking the enemy, for bodyblocking etc, while they also enable interactions from the opponents with the copies and phantams (cleave them, interupt them, blind them, get reward for hitting them like thief cloak and dagger on clones, war stacking might hitting burstskills on them, necro building up life force etc) is a big thing that makes mesmer unique and  creating an unique combo and setup gamplay other classes do not have that way.. without classic clones (not the wannabe clone replacement of blades) instant shatters would be broken. thats why the core defining mechanic of mes is a sensible and sensitive ensamble of mechanics standing in a deep realition to each other and influencing the whole gamaplay in an insane deep tactical lvl, creating an unique gameplay blades/ songs do not provide the slightest. and is also no comparision to the difference for guard if the virues are instant or not, thats only a matter of balance in power lvl.

 

also there are classes with 4 cast f -skill like engi and there are classes with a different type of setup requirement (build up a specific class resource) to get access to specific skills like warrior, necro and rev. and the recycler is a hybrid of engi 4 cast f-skills downgraded by a setup requirement of warrior/ nec. its far away from the classic mesmer and just an engi with a hybrid setup nature of a war/nec.

 

a better question would be if steal for thief specs needs to be instant according to the other parts of the core class identity mechanic.  core thief does some minor combos with steal (not as identity relavant as the instant shatter/ illusion relation for mesmer is) but doesnt rly has an unique setup requirement with it. so its a hard quesion to answer. in the end i think thief identity would survive a not instant steal skill but for sure a thief elite with not instant steal would need to get compensated (buffed) hard at other places of the new spec and it would need a very knowledgeable dev with clue about thief to make that thief elite not feel clunky, slow and unfun and less fluid, to keep the core thief gameplay feeling at least a minimum alive on that spec. so in regard of anets limited resources and it seems also limited knowledge of the game (esp pvp) and lack in class knowledge (of some classes at least) they better keep the instant steal and make changes for the thief class in elites around that instant strength to make sure they dont ruin the spec as they did with the virtuoso for mesmer.

 

virtuoso is what rev was in hot: a new profession, and not even the access to mes core traitlines and utilities can turn it back into a mesmer. thats how far the profession mechanic of virtuoso is from core mes.

you gotta learn to write more concisely, holy...

 

personally, i am disappointed with vituoso but not because of the lack of clones, that part is fun and interesting to me.

 

they did say they were going to "break the rules" on some of the elite specs this time - wouldnt be surprised to see ele get fewer attunements but get weapon swap instead or something.

[Artyport.2084]

3 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So the whole point of getting rid of phantasms is so you can put your own agenda, stop trying to add things that don't matter and fix the stuff we currently have that do. 

 

FYI That is asking for a recolored remodeled shade from scourge. 

 

Sometimes I am relieved that ANET don't read Mesmer section of the forum cuz of copium ideas.

No I’m gonna keep asking for what I want. I’m asking for new ways to play my class 

 

Based on your elitist mindset 

if I’m asking for  scourge shades 

then renegades shouldn’t have spirits 

Scourge no shades because they are just long term spirit weapons 

 

a ground targeted aoe effect placed down one time to do its effects isn’t the same as scourge shades. 
 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Artyport.2084

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Artyport.2084 said:

No I’m gonna keep asking for what I want. I’m asking for new ways to play my class 

 

Based on your elitist mindset 

if I’m asking for  scourge shades 

then renegades shouldn’t have spirits 

Scourge no shades because they are just long term spirit weapons 

 

a ground targeted aoe effect placed down one time to do its effects isn’t the same as scourge shades. 
 

 

Again its nothing new even you are able to come up with another example of that kind of ground targeted AOE effect. Not every class should share the same things with another class.

Instead of asking for new things and further on complications in balancing, traits, and nerfs, the class as a whole should be asked for fixes and buffs in certain areas that are weaker. 

 

The fact that you are asking to remove phantasms and clones really shows how this is NOT your class, never has a mesmer main that has played the class since release had ever truly asked for clones to be removed rather to adjust it and fix it because clones and phantasms are UNIQUE to the class itself that shares nothing else. 

 

People say its AI based like MM and that isn't wrong but the fact that its resource ammo for our core functions for F1 to F4 shatters as well as it duplicates your own character glams etc makes it vastly more complicated in coding then a simple AI like MM. No mesmer main ever complained about clones until they reduced the clones HP by a significant amount. 

 

The only change on Phantasm that any true mesmer would ask for is that you are able to shatter them right away whether its initially summoned or after the attack instead of waiting for them to turn to clones. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

 

The fact that you are asking to remove phantasms and clones really shows how this is NOT your class, never has a mesmer main that has played the class since release had ever truly asked for clones to be removed rather to adjust it and fix it because clones and phantasms are UNIQUE to the class itself that shares nothing else.  

 

Plenty of people here, including me, have been asking for ages for no a.i. spec. 

And sadly Virt is not the answer.

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Plenty of people here, including me, have been asking for ages for no a.i. spec. 

And sadly Virt is not the answer.

May 11, 2021	Undocumented change: Clones now self-destroy without effect when attacking invulnerable enemies, or if they have no path to their target.
February 06, 2018	Phantasms can no longer be shattered and no longer count toward your maximum illusion count. Phantasms are destroyed and then replaced by clones after completing their unique attack or if their attack is interrupted. Fixed a bug in which downed clones could persist after a rally. Fixed a bug in which downed clones could exceed the illusion limit.

 

Clones was never an issue released. It only became an issue after hit point nerfs and clones being easier to distinguish due to food buffs, utilities, etc...

 

It has been 3 years since any prominent update.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Artyport.2084]

However here we are with a spec with no clones. Which a lot of Mesmer mains asked for. Btw 

 

On top of that the daggers are not attached to a specific target.

 

so having phantasms that are also not attached to a specific target also makes sense.

 

my instruments are still phantasms they just don’t have a target attached 

 

For instance: 

focus- song of protection you summon an illusionary flutest. This phantasms plays a song in the ground targeted area. In that area no enemy can enter, projectiles are blocked. 
 

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Artyport.2084 said:

However here we are with a spec with no clones. Which a lot of Mesmer mains asked for. Btw 

 

On top of that the daggers are not attached to a specific target.

 

so having phantasms that are also not attached to a specific target also makes sense.

 

my instruments are still phantasms they just don’t have a target attached 

 

For instance: 

focus- song of protection you summon an illusionary flutest. This phantasms plays a song in the ground targeted area. In that area no enemy can enter, projectiles are blocked. 
 

 

So you are saying phantasmal warden the focus phantasm lol....or you are asking for feedback for a weapon skill....none will fit the "weapon skill type". 

Again phantasms don't serve the same purpose as it use to as it will be turned into clones, for virtuoso it will become blades I don't understand why this is hard to understand. 

I wouldn't mind if those were utilities skills because currently Virtuoso utilities are downright boring, weak, and comparable to weapon aoe skills.

[Artyport.2084]

But to be fair I’d just have us play the flute and the traits that effect phantasm would effect us while holding the illusionary flute.

 

[Artyport.2084]

1 minute ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So you are saying phantasmal warden the focus phantasm lol....or you are asking for feedback for a weapon skill....none will fit the "weapon skill type". 

Again phantasms don't serve the same purpose as it use to as it will be turned into clones, for virtuoso it will become blades I don't understand why this is hard to understand. 

I wouldn't mind if those were utilities skills because currently Virtuoso utilities are downright boring, weak, and comparable to weapon aoe skills.

I’m really not sure what you are complaining about.. the illusionary instruments  will still become daggers after their use. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Artyport.2084

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Artyport.2084 said:

I’m really not sure what you are complaining about.. the illusionary instruments  will still become daggers after their use. 

Then again its not different then having phantasms....they serve literally the same purpose...and the fact that our dagger only gives 3 weapon skills there isn't even a phantasm in it. 

 

No chance will the existing phantasms change to whatever you are suggesting because it would affect core, chrono, mirage.

From class to skills to traits.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

4 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

May 11, 2021	Undocumented change: Clones now self-destroy without effect when attacking invulnerable enemies, or if they have no path to their target.
February 06, 2018	Phantasms can no longer be shattered and no longer count toward your maximum illusion count. Phantasms are destroyed and then replaced by clones after completing their unique attack or if their attack is interrupted. Fixed a bug in which downed clones could persist after a rally. Fixed a bug in which downed clones could exceed the illusion limit.

 

Clones was never an issue released. It only became an issue after hit point nerfs and clones being easier to distinguish due to food buffs, utilities, etc...

 

It has been 3 years since any prominent update.

Clones always had an issue, you have no control over them and they're dumb af. The hp only made it worse.

[JazzXman.7018]

1 hour ago, Quadox.7834 said:

you gotta learn to write more concisely, holy...

 

personally, i am disappointed with vituoso but not because of the lack of clones, that part is fun and interesting to me.

 

they did say they were going to "break the rules" on some of the elite specs this time - wouldnt be surprised to see ele get fewer attunements but get weapon swap instead or something.

haha ye i know its exhausting and annoying to read that much and sry for just doing it again -.- but not sure if it is possible to say it shorter, when you wanna keep up all details.

 

and your answer is a common rip feeling for me. when i explain on detail why i say what i say and that it is not about taste or liking it or not, and then your simple answer more or less ignoring all facts and arguments i offered is: i dont mind it what is a more subjective approach than what my stuff is about. i mean its ok when you dont mind it. good for you, good for anet....

 

still factual virtuoso doesnt add any new mechanics and is a pure recycle move but still turns it into another more mainstream profession.

you can say, that you would like (or dont mind) that new profession but mechanically it isnt a mesmer anymore. and when you do not mind that all mesmer haters won and got mes deleted from eod (and i seriously think cmc would even rework core mes into another class if he could, lucky anet prob will not have the resources for that ever) than you can also do that. but i know why i choose mesmer as main class, i did it for the uniqunessness and for the insane deep tactial and high skill ceiling the core identity mechanic-ensample provides. and all that is not existent on virtuoso anymore. it also changes fast paced combo gameplay into simple chaincasting with a dumbed down setup mechanic compared to clones. and i dont talk about taste, i talk about simple mechanical facts which are linked to clones/ instant shatters. if you want to play a warrior in pink then ok virtuoso is something you dont mind and then all you will be dissappointed about is the uncreativity and the low effort attempt that comes just on top of the mesmer deletion.

 

but i dont like to be pranked by getting told blades and clones are around the same and songs are still shatters when both is clearly not true and i also will not get hyped by cool animations which in the end only cover low effort recycling (same as for the uncreative traits). im not buying it and its incredible for me that lot of mesmer mains dont even get that they get kicked in the face as mesmer fans. maybe when you can play it you will finally feel it. but i can see it in the mechanics already. so all i can say is: gg biased mesmer hate, you won that battle for eod and you won it in such a sneaky, well covered way that even half the mesmer mains miss it while every known mes hater celebrates over it 😞

Edited August 16, 2021 by JazzXman.7018

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Clones always had an issue, you have no control over them and they're dumb af. The hp only made it worse.

Not with the introduction of Mirage and detargetting that made clones way more useful.

[Quadox.7834]

11 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

haha ye i know its exhausting and annoying to read that much and sry frort just doing it again -.- but not sure if it is posisble to say it shorter, when you wanna keep up all details.

 

and your answer is a common rip feeling for me. when i explain on detail why i say what i say and that it is not about taste or liking it or not, and then your simple answer more or less ignoring all facts and arguments i offered is: i dont mind it what is a more subjective approach that what my stuff is about. i mean its ok when you dont mind it. good for you, good for anet....

 

still factual virtuoso doesnt add any new mechanics and is a pure recycle move but still turns it into another more mainstream profession.

you can say, that you would like (or dont mind) that new profession but mechanically it isnt a mesmer anymore. and when you do not mind that all mesmer haters won and got mes deleted from eod (and i seriously think cmc would even rework core mes into another class if he could, lucky anet prob will not have the resources for that ever) than you can also do that. but i know why i choose mesmer as main class, i did it for the uniqunessness and for the insane deep tactial and high skill ceiling the core identity mechanic-ensample provides. and all that is not existent on virtuoso anymore. it also changes fast paced combo gameplay into simple chaincasting with a dumbed down setup mechanic compared to clones. and i dont talk about taste, i talk about simple mechanical facts which are linked to clones/ instant shatters. if you want to play a warrior in pink then ok virtuoso is something you dont mind and then all you will be dissappointed about is the uncreativity and the low effort attempt that comes just on top of the mesmer deletion.

 

but i dont like to be pranked by getting told blades and clones are around the same and songs are still shatters when both is clearly not true and i also will not get hyped by cool animations which in the end only cover low effort recycling (same as for the uncreative traits). im not buying it and its incredible for me that lot of mesmer mains dont even get that they get kicked in the face as mesmer fans. maybe when you can play it you will finally feel it. but i can see it in the mechanics already. so all i can say is: gg biased mesmer hate, you won that battle for eod and you won it in such a sneaky, well covered way that even half the mesmer mains miss it while every known mes hater celebrates over it 😞

Meh, gw2 mesmer is barely mesmer anyway. though i would 100% have preferred to get hexes rather than these boring new utilities.

 

Calling it a warrior is not really an insult considering warrior also has a high skill cieling, while being the most fair class, and the hardest to do well with in PvP right now.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[JazzXman.7018]

7 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Clones always had an issue, you have no control over them and they're dumb af. The hp only made it worse.

and again i rly dont wanna look arrogant or elitistic but this is rly THE important point, the point that make the difference:

 

what you (and other mes player) describe in a lot of posts i saw regards virtuoso and a no-clone spec is a l2p issue a lot of ppl have with clones. since the mesmer indeed has control over them. not 100% control ofc, since the target determines their movement, but you can do a lot to reduce the movement they have to do with clone positioning while creating them, for example to speed up your dmg combos (and no, you dont need unhealthy instant clone generation like mirror images or self deception trait with jaunt for that).

 

and you also can do a lot for clone surviving and enemy distraction by clone positioning and spawn timing depending on the situation on the battle field and your opponents cds. you can utilize clones more than normal weapons skills for example for bodyblocking etc. so clones/phants add impact and reward normal weponsskills dont have. for that they ofc have different and more counterplay. so ofc clones/phants  have downsides, thats part of the counterplay (that opponents can outrun their dumb pathing when you just spam clones random on the battle field and when you play mes too slowly, that they can cleave them, rupt them blind them, get rewarded by attacking them, for example a necro generating life force from hitting them, that the phants attack often pretty delayed since they can spawn in the back of the player and create visual clutter so they can be missed or forgotten by the opponent, just like a ranger pet already gets value by forcing the opponent to pay attention to not only the ranger player but also the pet itself).

 

yes clone/phant management got harder for the mes with the powercreeped brainless aoe spam, which is unhealthy and low skill for the game in general and should be reduced and better balanced for a more skillbased game anyway (instead deleting mesmers class identity). but even in current power creeped state, the problems ppl describe with clones are a l2p issue on the mesmer player side and the opponents side. i dont have any issues to keep my clones and phantasm alive most of the time even in teamfights or in wvw, i know other mesmer player (some even not main mesmers) dont have those problems either. ofc sometimes clones/phants get cleave but that is to some extent solid and fair counterplay, which you as mesmer player can counter again by better clone/ phantasm management. and spawn timing.

 

so all anet is trying to prank mesmer players with is by provding casual players a way to play an easier but in the end totally new profession in pink, so they can lie to themself that it is still a mesmer. while all positivity it provides for mesmer players is to avoid a l2p issue mesmer players just should try to delete by improving gameplay and class understanding. virtuoso is clearly a big step into a more casual approach and hopes to get also casual mesmer players as fans of it bc of the simplification. while all casual mesmer hater get what they were asking for since game release: a mesmer deletion (at least for eod). 

[Levetty.1279]

9 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

and again i rly dont wanna look arrogant or elitistic but this is rly THE important point, the point that make the difference:

 

what you (and other mes player) describe in a lot of posts i saw regards virtuoso and a no-clone spec is a l2p issue a lot of ppl have with clones. since the mesmer indeed has control over them. not 100% control ofc, since the target determines their movement, but you can do a lot to reduce the movement they have to do with clone positioning while creating them, for example to speed up your dmg combos (and no, you dont need unhealthy instant clone generation like mirror images or self deception trait with jaunt for that).

 

and you also can do a lot for clone surviving and enemy distraction by clone positioning and spawn timing depending on the situation on the battle field and your opponents cds. you can utilize clones more than normal weapons skills for example for bodyblocking etc. so clones/phants add impact and reward normal weponsskills dont have. for that they ofc have different and more counterplay. so ofc clones/phants  have downsides, thats part of the counterplay (that opponents can outrun their dumb pathing when you just spam clones random on the battle field and when you play mes too slowly, that they can cleave them, rupt them blind them, get rewarded by attacking them, for example a necro generating life force from hitting them, that the phants attack often pretty delayed since they can spawn in the back of the player and create visual clutter so they can be missed or forgotten by the opponent, just like a ranger pet already gets value by forcing the opponent to pay attention to not only the ranger player but also the pet itself).

 

yes clone/phant management got harder for the mes with the powercreeped brainless aoe spam, which is unhealthy and low skill for the game in general and should be reduced and better balanced for a more skillbased game anyway (instead deleting mesmers class identity). but even in current power creeped state, the problems ppl describe with clones are a l2p issue on the mesmer player side and the opponents side. i dont have any issues to keep my clones and phantasm alive most of the time even in teamfights or in wvw, i know other mesmer player (some even not main mesmers) dont have those problems either. ofc sometimes clones/phants get cleave but that is to some extent solid and fair counterplay, which you as mesmer player can counter again by better clone/ phantasm management. and spawn timing.

 

so all anet is trying to prank mesmer players with is by provding casual players a way to play an easier but in the end totally new profession in pink, so they can lie to themself that it is still a mesmer. while all positivity it provides for mesmer players is to avoid a l2p issue mesmer players just should try to delete by improving gameplay and class understanding. virtuoso is clearly a big step into a more casual approach and hopes to get also casual mesmer players as fans of it bc of the simplification. while all casual mesmer hater get what they were asking for since game release: a mesmer deletion (at least for eod). 

I really don't know where this idea came from that clones were a major issue with Mesmer. Permanent Phantasms were and they have been gone for a long time but clones weren't. That is why Mirage was the first good Mesmer spec for none raid PvE and our first actual DPS for raids.

 

Not that I am opposed to a cloneless espec, if it had actual thought and effort put into it to make it something interesting, Virtuoso isn't it.

 

This is outside of WvW zergs of course where a cloneless spec with lots of none phantasm based aoe could be useful. Fortunately Anet made it all projectile based with no access to unblockable so its even more useless in that mode then clone specs.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[JazzXman.7018]

31 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Meh, gw2 mesmer is barely mesmer anyway. though i would 100% have preferred to get hexes rather than these boring new utilities.

 

Calling it a warrior is not really an insult considering warrior also has a high skill cieling, while being the most fair class, and the hardest to do well with in PvP right now.

this again shwos that you didnt rly understand what i was talking about. why would i use warrior as an insult? warrior is a legitim class with good mechanics and own but clearly different (but also more mmo mainstream)  in a different way high skill ceiling/ cap and different skill floor. nothing on warrior is an insult and was never meant as one from me. but warrior is not a mesmer, and that for good and factual mechancial reasons! as said im not subjective and emotional judging, i just objective based on facts describe mechanical reality!!!

 

 

aaaarrrrggs that makes me crazy... esp when same ppl who dont even understand me when i explain it detailed in the long essay version are the same ppl ask for shorter and with that less detailed explanations and less backup for my arguments in only few word... its like demanding from me to cross a river by swimming in normal clothes without getting wet...

those demands for shorter essays contradicts themself and leaves me mentally trapped and handicapped in so many ways. and the unlogic gives me headache tbh.

 

and accusing me of being biased and emotional judging is also unfair, since my approach is quite the opposite of subjectivity and narrowed hate on other classes. thats why you never see me jumping into other classes channels on forum or discord to spread narrowd hate based on lack of class knowledge and class understanding what you see a lot of non main mesmers do in mesmer related topics. i let other classes mains do their job to provide as unbiased and healthy/skillful balance suggestion for their main class as i do for mesmer. also that seems to be a very very optimistic attempt considering how biased and shocking clueless lot of ppl are, even ppl who are actually good at pvp and the classes they play...

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

12 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

and again i rly dont wanna look arrogant or elitistic but this is rly THE important point, the point that make the difference:

 

what you (and other mes player) describe in a lot of posts i saw regards virtuoso and a no-clone spec is a l2p issue a lot of ppl have with clones. since the mesmer indeed has control over them. not 100% control ofc, since the target determines their movement, but you can do a lot to reduce the movement they have to do with clone positioning while creating them, for example to speed up your dmg combos (and no, you dont need unhealthy instant clone generation like mirror images or self deception trait with jaunt for that).

 

and you also can do a lot for clone surviving and enemy distraction by clone positioning and spawn timing depending on the situation on the battle field and your opponents cds. you can utilize clones more than normal weapons skills for example for bodyblocking etc. so clones/phants add impact and reward normal weponsskills dont have. for that they ofc have different and more counterplay. so ofc clones/phants  have downsides, thats part of the counterplay (that opponents can outrun their dumb pathing when you just spam clones random on the battle field and when you play mes too slowly, that they can cleave them, rupt them blind them, get rewarded by attacking them, for example a necro generating life force from hitting them, that the phants attack often pretty delayed since they can spawn in the back of the player and create visual clutter so they can be missed or forgotten by the opponent, just like a ranger pet already gets value by forcing the opponent to pay attention to not only the ranger player but also the pet itself).

 

yes clone/phant management got harder for the mes with the powercreeped brainless aoe spam, which is unhealthy and low skill for the game in general and should be reduced and better balanced for a more skillbased game anyway (instead deleting mesmers class identity). but even in current power creeped state, the problems ppl describe with clones are a l2p issue on the mesmer player side and the opponents side. i dont have any issues to keep my clones and phantasm alive most of the time even in teamfights or in wvw, i know other mesmer player (some even not main mesmers) dont have those problems either. ofc sometimes clones/phants get cleave but that is to some extent solid and fair counterplay, which you as mesmer player can counter again by better clone/ phantasm management. and spawn timing.

 

so all anet is trying to prank mesmer players with is by provding casual players a way to play an easier but in the end totally new profession in pink, so they can lie to themself that it is still a mesmer. while all positivity it provides for mesmer players is to avoid a l2p issue mesmer players just should try to delete by improving gameplay and class understanding. virtuoso is clearly a big step into a more casual approach and hopes to get also casual mesmer players as fans of it bc of the simplification. while all casual mesmer hater get what they were asking for since game release: a mesmer deletion (at least for eod). 

The problem is precisely the one you said at the beginning target controls their movement. And you can't control whether they attack or not, hence they proc full counter, etc. 

[JazzXman.7018]

7 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I really don't know where this idea came from that clones were a major issue with Mesmer. Permanent Phantasms were and they have been gone for a long time but clones weren't. That is why Mirage was the first good Mesmer spec for none raid PvE and our first actual DPS for raids.

i even was talking about core mes clones. mirage and chrono both already got mechanics added to give them ways to deal with the powercreeped aoe spam wihtout actually deleting mesmers class identity from those elite specs. so that is the way to go when anet rly refuse to mirage does it even betetr than chrono sicne chronso super speed is just a dumb down power creep trait to counter gamewide aoe power creep. whiel mirage with ih rly got a mostly active and very skillful mechanic that also adds more bait potential and mind gaming for the opponent. 

 

and after old perma living phantasm got deleted mesmer is also not an ai class comparable to a mm necro or old turret engi anymore. only condi mes with those stupid passive condi dmg spam on clone normal autoattacks and mirages condi weapon ambushes with the too passive ambush design still provide some form of passive ai carry that doesnt get balanced out by higher skill requirement or higher counterplay in other parts of the class. 

[JazzXman.7018]

11 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The problem is precisely the one you said at the beginning target controls their movement. And you can't control whether they attack or not, hence they proc full counter, etc. 

and as said that is part of valid counterplay and needed healthy weaknesses the clones provide for the opponent to compensate for the strengths clones/ phants add and how annoying they are for the opponent

[Genesis.5169]

On 8/13/2021 at 6:58 PM, Artyport.2084 said:

ah someone who doesnt understand elite specs..

and also doesnt realize that the other elite specs WITH CLONES will still exist. a

a lot of people want a tricky mage who isnt constantly casting clones of itself this spec is mostly there.. TAKE IT ALL THE WAY 

 

You know you can just play ele or guardian right?

[Artyport.2084]

28 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

 

You know you can just play ele or guardian right?

Clones in my opinion don’t make the Mesmer. It’s the trickster mage play type that does. 
 

virtuoso is offering a Mesmer that is still tricky without the clones. 
Mesmer is begging for a minstrel type class and virtuoso could be just that with the addition of some instrumental illusion and what better place to put them than replace phantasm. 
 

it would give the spec an additional mechanic that I think the virtuoso is needing.
If the shatters are going to stay the same then the cool mechanic could be replacing phantasms with something  interesting could go a long way 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

By using the same logic if you want to play clones you can play core mesmer, chrono and mirage.

 

Clones aren't even what mesmer was supposed to do. It was the way of dealing with no hexes but still have the mindplay setting (which failed btw) mesmer was known for, ANerf found.

That was what mesmer is all about - making you do choices in which you lose whatever your choice is.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735
Typo

[Quadox.7834]

5 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

this again shwos that you didnt rly understand what i was talking about. why would i use warrior as an insult? warrior is a legitim class with good mechanics and own but clearly different (but also more mmo mainstream)  in a different way high skill ceiling/ cap and different skill floor. nothing on warrior is an insult and was never meant as one from me. but warrior is not a mesmer, and that for good and factual mechancial reasons! as said im not subjective and emotional judging, i just objective based on facts describe mechanical reality!!!

cringe

5 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

aaaarrrrggs that makes me crazy... esp when same ppl who dont even understand me when i explain it detailed in the long essay version are the same ppl ask for shorter and with that less detailed explanations and less backup for my arguments in only few word... its like demanding from me to cross a river by swimming in normal clothes without getting wet...

those demands for shorter essays contradicts themself and leaves me mentally trapped and handicapped in so many ways. and the unlogic gives me headache tbh.

 

and accusing me of being biased and emotional judging is also unfair, since my approach is quite the opposite of subjectivity and narrowed hate on other classes. thats why you never see me jumping into other classes channels on forum or discord to spread narrowd hate based on lack of class knowledge and class understanding what you see a lot of non main mesmers do in mesmer related topics. i let other classes mains do their job to provide as unbiased and healthy/skillful balance suggestion for their main class as i do for mesmer. also that seems to be a very very optimistic attempt considering how biased and shocking clueless lot of ppl are, even ppl who are actually good at pvp and the classes they play...

i did not say any of that. you need to learn that sometimes, it's not that people don't understand you, but that they just disagree with you.